Creationism vs. Evolution

[JanYpe 17]

Why has this even gone on for 8 pages? If someone is going to rely strictly on faith, then you don't stand a snowball's chance in hell in using rational arguments to change it. It's a closed book: biology, geology, and most of human research have been rejected already. If people wish to believe that God only ever gave us our brains to unquestioningly follow a much mis-edited, mis-translated and mis-interpreted book, then that's their choice (and possibly their loss).

(Literal) Creationism isn't science, doesn't resemble science, doesn't even smell of science; it's faith, shoddily applied to the world.

Until science can explain to me how the universe simply popped into existence out of a void where nothing existed, I believe in God.quote>

But that's not evolution. It's where science is still very uncertain. It's only logical that this is a point where our physics, philosophy and theology meet. We still need explanations; we aren't that different from the old people who saw the sun rise and figured that it must be caused by a deity pulling it along in a chariot.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[The boy formerly known as Evil Muzz 27]

The structure of atoms is a theory, yes. But the fact that they exist is undeniable. Your argument is flawed. Atoms themselves are not theory, but religion is. I'm sorry, but thats the way it goes. Where is the hard evidence that God exists besides a 2000 year old book?

I find it funny that in the face of undeniable scientific evidence people can still deny it and put things down to miracles. But if it makes you happy, then fine I guess.

[coolotter88 2]

Religion is theory, Science is fact

I'm really really tired of explaining to fundamentalists that the theory involved in science is different from the theory involved in real life.

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: packersfan ...

(Religion is based on THEORY and Science is based on FACT)...um no...ATOMS are mostly theory, BIG BANG mostly theory, EVOLUTION mostly theory...quote>

I would not consider religion a theory at least in the scientific sense. As previously mentioned, the word theory has a specific definition when used in the scientific sense (including in reference to theory of evolution, wave-particle duality theory, quantum theory etc). Religious based creation stories do not meet meet that definition. The term "faith" itself would indicate that.

If you mean theory in the popular usage, then evolution, atom theory, etc are not theories in that sense. They are much stronger than that.  The closest scientific equivalent to the popular usage of "theory" might be hypothesis, although even a hypothesis is stronger.

Originally posted by: mayor of the manor God made man in his own image according to the creationist notion.

...quote>

Or did man make gods in his image?

Originally posted by: packersfan ...

(Religion is based on THEORY and Science is based on FACT)...um no...ATOMS are mostly theory, BIG BANG mostly theory, EVOLUTION mostly theory...quote>

I would not consider religion a theory at least in the scientific sense. As previously mentioned, the word theory has a specific definition when used in the scientific sense (including in reference to theory of evolution, wave-particle duality theory, quantum theory etc). Religious accounts of origins do not meet meet that definition. The term "faith" itself would indicate that.

If you mean theory in the popular usage, then evolution, atom theory, etc are not theories in that sense. They are much stronger than that.

Originally posted by: mayor of the manor God made man in his own image according to the creationist notion.

...quote>

Or did man make gods in his image?

I noticed no-one has apparently answered my question from earlier:

Originally posted by: sam

Originally posted by: oceanmariner I just noticed this discussion and had to comment. How could anyone believe that an aquired trait could be passed along to another generation!?! If you have two rats, and you cut off their tails, does that mean that their offspring won't have a tails? NO! quote>

The theory of evolution does not claim any such thing. (Edit: I would be very interested to know why you would think this, and why so many people seem to think similar things) quote>

I am kind of curious as to where and how people learn about evolution, particularly where these kind of inaccuracies come from (also the ideas of  "theory")

[JanYpe 17]

Simply put; religion is based on theory, (hence the term theology), science is based on fact.quote>

I missed this gem from the last page. This is flat out wrong. It has nothing to do with theory, or the discussion at hand. Theology means the study of theos, god.

[mayor of the manor 0]

Or did man make gods in his image?quote>

I like to think the answer to that question is yes, but that's my own opinion. I believe that we humans, by our very nature, are self-righteous as a collective. Not many animals seem to display this trait either. Killer whales do though, and they are very aggressive. Humans are very aggressive too and there seems to be a link with the brain capicty and this behaviour.

Common chimps are known to murder others from rival groups (or  tribes or even countries if you like) and they are our closest relatives with something like 98.4% matching DNA (varies between different geneological groups). These all seem to point to self-righteousness which is a trait stemming from self-awareness. So who's to say if Man was created in the image of God or vice versa. At the end of the day it's down to whether you put faith in a book that's been written hundreds of times or faith in people you have never met or spoken to before in your life (with regards to the creation vs. evolution argument. Other religeons have interesting ideas too.) Either that or you come up with your own theory .

PS. No offence but Plato says the use of rhetoric is a persuasive tool of charlatans . It's always best to back up a question with an hypothesis or argument.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[mayor of the manor 0]

Ah cool cool thanks for up-to-date stats! I was working on something I read a couple of years ago. Science changes fast!

[beedubaya 4]

I don't like how fundamentalist preachers push the idea that its either you believe 6-day Creationsim 6,000 years ago or you don't believe in God period. This is the biggest flaw in the church as they refuse to accept science. There is overwhelming evidence for an earth older than 6,000 years, even if there are flaws in the theory of evolution itself. The popular Creationist arguments for a 6,000 year old earth (i.e. dust on the moon, etc) have all been refuted by science.  There was a time when the Catholic church actually executed people for insisting that the earth was round (that was heresy at that time).

Plus, how do you develop every race or variation within species we have today in the 4,000 years since Noah's Ark? It is completely impossible. I believe in God and that He created the universe, but I am very open minded as to HOW he did it.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

I haven't been on here in quite a while, but this morning I had a thought.  Both theories take a lot of faith.  In the one, blind faith in a document written by "inspired" primitives about the time of the second Egyptian dynasty, or faith in the veracity of science.

Now do creationists also believe that the sun goes around the earth?  Can they listen to the music of the spheres?  Why should we believe in Aristotle more than our own observations? 

Leonardo Da Vinci came as close to being burned at the stake as you can get and not smell the smoke because he insisted the "immovable" earth went around the sun.  He was under house arrest until his death.

Don't the creationists ascribe archaeological evidenc to the works of the devil?  They are assigning creation powers to the devil, when only God can create things.  The inconsistencies are laughable.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

Don't the creationists ascribe archaeological evidenc to the works of the devil?  They are assigning creation powers to the devil, when only God can create things.  The inconsistencies are laughable.quote>

Yeah, only a small minority that refuse to believe in the existence of dinosaurs.

People really need to work on not believing everything they hear said by some some faction pretending to speak for the masses when in reality they'll say anything so long as it will get them attention.

[coolotter88 2]

@ N_O_Body, do you have your renaissance people confused? I believe Galileo was under house arrest, not Da Vinci.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Ooops, quite right.  I don't know why I was thnking of da Vinci when I was quoting Gallileo in my mind "Eppur si muove."

[2nerdy4u 1]

I just think there are people out there would don't fully understand Science and how it truly works, so they go on with these thoughts about 6 days and whatnot burned into their heads. The stubbornness of these people just irritates me. I don't understand why they just sit there without an open mind and refuse to attempt to understand what a scientist and actual thought say. The only argument they can ever come up with is "Oh, well it says so in the Bible." I'm sorry if I might be offending someone, but the Bible was written by humans; mere humans like you and me with all their flaws and imperfections.

Well, now that all that is over, I'm sure we can see where my money is.

[MayorTim 16]

We had a fairly interesting (though short lived) debate on this in one of my classes today, in which my teacher brought up a pretty good argument. It's got me stumped, so I'll let you guys take a crack at it.

First, she brought up the whole, if evolution was true, everything should be getting better all the time, ect, which I think is a very weak argument.

Then, however, she brought up an interesting point - if evolution really does occur, why is everyone made the same? Aside from outward appearance, we all have the same organs in the same places, same body systems, ect. Wouldn't some people, or groups of people, evolve faster than others? Even if it still takes thousands of years, you would think people on one continent would be fundamentally different than people from another continent.

Anyway, that was her argument, give me a response.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

There were other political complications in Galileo's case that brought it to a head, it was the grounds they used to torment him. Notice Copernicus had no such trouble presenting a similar case, and was in fact well received. Galileo is used as ammunition when attacking Christianity, but it was never really about faith vs science at its core...it was political.  Those in power largely used religion as a means to further that power, and nothing else.

But as I have stated in another forum, I feel no obligation to defend the actions of the Catholic Church. And the reasons why.

An analogy...         

Pilate is demonized, but careful examination of other circumstances shows why he allowed the High Priest to crucify Christ. It was the conclusion of Pilate that Christ was innocent of maestas, or high treason. He was blackmailed by said Priest, thus leading to his proclamation 'I wash my hands of this.'  Pilate was close to being recalled to Rome (and certain execution) over several incidents previous, and had no stomach to stir up another rebellion... for the sake of his own neck.  The story is best summarized in the book Pontius Pilate by Paul Miaer, a book that is sort of a biography with fiction filling in the gaps. Yeah, one of those. But it is a gripping read in its own right. 

I know this post veers off-topic, but I thought the point needed to be made if Galileo was to be exhumed for this discussion.

edit: book link was bad, sorry...

*Gasp!* a 2nd edit... The Black Death in Europe shows an interesting story, in response to 2nerdy, below. Some people in SW England had a genetic mutation in the CCR5 gene that made them immune to the Black Death. Their descendants, 700 years later, still carry that gene. It also makes them immune to HIV. No one from anywhere else on Earth has this mutation, named Delta something.

[2nerdy4u 1]

Originally posted by: MayorTim We had a fairly interesting (though short lived) debate on this in one of my classes today, in which my teacher brought up a pretty good argument. It's got me stumped, so I'll let you guys take a crack at it.

First, she brought up the whole, if evolution was true, everything should be getting better all the time, ect, which I think is a very weak argument.

Then, however, she brought up an interesting point - if evolution really does occur, why is everyone made the same? Aside from outward appearance, we all have the same organs in the same places, same body systems, ect. Wouldn't some people, or groups of people, evolve faster than others? Even if it still takes thousands of years, you would think people on one continent would be fundamentally different than people from another continent.

Anyway, that was her argument, give me a response. quote>

Well, certain races of people do have certain differences. The obvious one: skin color. Another one: immunity to certain diseases. If you've seen any medical reports or such, you'd see that they have data for different races of people, just because certain the bodies of certain races behave differently to disease. The Europeans went through the Black Death, and so their bodies behave differently. The human race is, according to scientific study, very young, so there aren't any totally distinct differences between us like the differences between mice and sharks.

And have you ever wondered why Kenyans are such fast runners?

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: 2nerdy4u

Originally posted by: MayorTim We had a fairly interesting (though short lived) debate on this in one of my classes today, in which my teacher brought up a pretty good argument. It's got me stumped, so I'll let you guys take a crack at it.

First, she brought up the whole, if evolution was true, everything should be getting better all the time, ect, which I think is a very weak argument.

Then, however, she brought up an interesting point - if evolution really does occur, why is everyone made the same? Aside from outward appearance, we all have the same organs in the same places, same body systems, ect. Wouldn't some people, or groups of people, evolve faster than others? Even if it still takes thousands of years, you would think people on one continent would be fundamentally different than people from another continent.

Anyway, that was her argument, give me a response. quote>

Well, certain races of people do have certain differences. The obvious one: skin color. Another one: immunity to certain diseases. If you've seen any medical reports or such, you'd see that they have data for different races of people, just because certain the bodies of certain races behave differently to disease. The Europeans went through the Black Death, and so their bodies behave differently. The human race is, according to scientific study, very young, so there aren't any totally distinct differences between us like the differences between mice and sharks.

And have you ever wondered why Kenyans are such fast runners?quote>

Well, first off, I always heard that they were known for their distance running, not so much sprinting abilities.  To answer your question though, according to US Olympic trainers, it has to do with the Kenyan environment being an ideal condition for training individuals to endure the stresses of competitive running.  So if you grew up in such an environment, you'll have a natural advantage over someone who didn't.

[dalmatianfan2020 1]

Now, I hope this has been mentioned before, but I don't have the time to read all 9 pages of this.

How I, and my church feel (The Episcopal Church) is that evolution is God's doing. I mean, there really isn't anything, that I know of at least, that completely shuts God out of it. Basically, we feel that God got it all started, and it just went from there. We Anglicans take the "accident" part out if Evolution. That's the only difference between us and hard scientists I'd say. God knew what he was doing, and he did it for a reason.

Science says: The Universe started with the "BIG BANG," well, what if God started it? What if God saying "Let there be light" was the Bang?

Also, the 7 day creation story: The Georgian calendar didn't exist back then. 7 Days could be millions of years for all we know.

-The evolution of man does not necessarily mean Adam and Eve couldn't have existed, I don't think anyway

Humans are such stupid creatures, all things considered, that it is really fairly pointless to try and make sense of the Universe.

[Micah 16]

that it is really fairly pointless to try and make sense of the Universe.quote>

If we did not try to make sense of the Universe, chances are, we wouldn't be talking to each other over the Internet.

[coolotter88 2]

that would be the gregorian calendar

I have an anecdote to share, some student blurts out "Creationism" when my science teacher was talking about theories. the teacher replies "and the tooth fairy too!"

[2nerdy4u 1]

^ Bah hahahahahahaha! Oh man... wow. That was funny.

hym: and that there is the very most basic idea of evolution: organisms changing to be the best in their environments

[city11 0]

As a man that believes in Creationism...I have just one thing to say....You may have your single celled organisms that evovled into larger organisms...but how do explain where that single celled organism came from...or where that evolved from...there has to be one great being that started everything....everything has a beginning...I agree with dalmatianfan2010....all your evolution could have happened but it all had to start some where

[MayorTim 16]

Originally posted by: dalmatianfan2020 Now, I hope this has been mentioned before, but I don't have the time to read all 9 pages of this.

How I, and my church feel (The Episcopal Church) is that evolution is God's doing. I mean, there really isn't anything, that I know of at least, that completely shuts God out of it. Basically, we feel that God got it all started, and it just went from there. We Anglicans take the "accident" part out if Evolution. That's the only difference between us and hard scientists I'd say. God knew what he was doing, and he did it for a reason.

Science says: The Universe started with the "BIG BANG," well, what if God started it? What if God saying "Let there be light" was the Bang?

Also, the 7 day creation story: The Georgian calendar didn't exist back then. 7 Days could be millions of years for all we know.

-The evolution of man does not necessarily mean Adam and Eve couldn't have existed, I don't think anyway

Humans are such stupid creatures, all things considered, that it is really fairly pointless to try and make sense of the Universe.quote>

But to do that, you'd have to throw away Genesis. Also, there is still no scientific proof of what your saying, it seems to me like your simply trying to mold your beliefs around recent scientific findings.

Originally posted by: city11 As a man that believes in Creationism...I have just one thing to say....You may have your single celled organisms that evovled into larger organisms...but how do explain where that single celled organism came from...or where that evolved from...there has to be one great being that started everything....everything has a beginningquote>

I'm not an expert on this, so don't bother quoting it, but I'm pretty sure this has been explained by molecules forming together in tidal pools over millions of years.

I also think that the Christian approach of trying to prove their religion by disproving evolution is really ridiculous.

[2nerdy4u 1]

Originally posted by: MayorTim

I also think that the Christian approach of trying to prove their religion by disproving evolution is really ridiculous.quote>

Totally agree with you there.

And for all you creationists out there, who says your specific idea of creationism is right? There are several other ideas of creation out there, but you don't see those guys trying to defeat science.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

I myself went to a Christian school for six years, not because of the religious values, but for the higher quality of education associated with these schools.  And, I can tell you from personal experience, that these concepts of faith-based science hold no water in the modern spectrum.  I never said anything out loud in class to contradict these teachings (as to do so would be considered forming your own opinions on the subject matter, which, as we all know, is immoral and should be dealt with accordingly), but at the end of my six years in these schools, I can tell you, without a doubt in my mind, that creation-based science is not supportable in present day science.   Also, in my recent stay at my (public, mind you) college, I have found that my High School altered (to the point of trying invalidate carbon-dating, to prove that the Earth is less than 7,000 years old) many of the basic scientific concepts to make their Creation-Science theory fit.  I think these religious institutions of science are too quick to write off the unknown as "Well, if we don't know, then it must be God", rather than investigating these unknowns further to support (or invalidate, which never happens, they teach you to "look at it from all angles", and then tell you that the Creationist viewpoint has to be right) their claims.  They even go so far as to write off the "strong and weak nuclear forces" (you know, the ones that hold atoms together) as Jesus.  Yes, I'm being completely serious, they think Jesus holds every atom together, because they cannot explain these forces.

[flame1396 9]

Pastafarianism

(veganza.org)

Flying Spaghetti Monster

To mods: This does pertain to the topic... in a goofy way.

[DragonStallion 0]

Evolution doesn't exist beyond the micro-cellular level, because the DNAs of each of world's plants, animals, and us humans doesn't allow transition into other forms. And there's not one transitional form in the fossil record.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Originally posted by: DragonStallion Evolution doesn't exist beyond the micro-cellular level, because the DNAs of each of world's plants, animals, and us humans doesn't allow transition into other forms. And there's not one transitional form in the fossil record.quote>

(*coughs*) source?

[EDIT] Then explain the mutation of bacteria and viruses that adapt to medications...  And, there are transitional forms in the fossil record, but Christianity just deems them as being "too vague" and "unsupported conclusions" and tells you that they are invalid.

Originally posted by: flame1396 Pastafarianism

(veganza.org)

Flying Spaghetti Monster

To mods: This does pertain to the topic... in a goofy way.quote>

Yes, I've seen this before, its quite an interesting take on the religion and science debate, actually (while being quite amusing and satirical).