The Dependency Debate

[newyorkrunaway1 110]

................

[RON-E 0]

lol, i think that is the most random comment i have heard here! lol

anyways, i think if people are going to make dependencies, there should be only one pool of them so people can download them all at once and if there are updates, they can be downloaded and updated accordingly. i think st she get a grip of this issue, becuase it is becoming more and more difficult to keep up with all of them and they are taking up way to much space. my dependencies folder is 1G right now

[north country dude 202]

Originally posted by: JSNK000 My problem with dependencies ....Enough already. Packs being moved,merged,deleted....it's too much. quote>

Why get your panties in a knot over it? It's just a game. For some, it's an avid hobby, but demanding that people provide you something for free will get you no where.

The point is that they are SHARING their work with others. Isn't it too bad that you have to do a little legwork to get the FREEWARE. Believe me, the custom content provider went through the same trouble getting the dependencies they used in their creation, but you can't be bothered?

And now you have crap spread out over 3 or 4 sites....prop packs get locked at one site...moved to another....you waste an hour hunting down a stupid pack just so you can get some custom tree or some other nonsense.

A person uploads a work of art and completely kills all joy by asking you to hunt down 9 prop packs.quote>

That's YOUR CHOICE! If it's "crap" or has too many dependencies for you to be bothered with it, why bother at all?

Some compromises

-release 2 lots in each zip....one as intended with any and all props and a vanilla one so the person can at least get it in game w/o blank spots or brown boxes...IF that person wants to at a later date hunt down packs or build their own lot they can but don't shoot somebody in the foot before they even get started. It would take the creator 2 minutes to make an alternative lot. OR....make one lot with custom props and one with only MAXIS props. quote>

Don't have to. Why can't you open the Lot Editor and do it yourself? The custom content maker did it that way, why can't you?

-provide UP_TO_DATE LINKS for ALL Prop packs/dependencies and keep it up to date. I hate clicking inks and finding 'this file has been locked' ove and over and over because the person moved their packs and didn't provide new links. Not all of us read the forums or are 'in the know' as to the latest in an douts of what each BAT team is doing or where their crap is located.quote>

My stuff worked when I uploaded it. Periodically I do update it, but it really doesn't pay very well. Sometimes I like to take a break and do something else, like play Civ4 for a while, or make some interesting layouts for TRS2006.

-use some discretion. When you see a single BAT you are lotting has more than say 4 separate dependencies...take a step back and maybe scale it down. Do you really need that particular bench? I mean...c'mon. Wouldn't the MAXIS mailbox work just as well? Does there have to be 8 different tree types? Think about your customers. quote>

Customers?? we have customers? You mean we're getting paid for this stuff?? HEY!! WHERE'S MY CHECK!!

Yeah,these are free and a labor of love but...at the same time you want your hard work to end up in as many hands as possible otherwise why bother? You don't want to go hogwild and turn your potential downloaders off all because they will need to take an entire afternoon finding all of these dependencies when they should be in game enjoying your hard work. quote>

Speaking for myself, I don't make custom content for beginners. Most of my stuff is intended for medium to advanced skill levels. I make my stuff on request for some members, and members who know what they are doing. I feel that Maxis and EA provided plenty of content just for beginners.

- be specific. Some BATers are so sloppy or vague and I am not sure exactly what I'm supposed to be needing. I end up on a wild goose chase looking for some piece of the puzzle and it ends up not being worth it.quote>

I agree. That's why I just pass on by that stuff without wasting time on a comment.

-convergence and organization. TEAM SIM makes prop pack A.....then somebody on the team releases a new set of trucks...ok..so update to pack B and REMOVE pack A so B has the latest props. Keep your latest pack front and center and easy to find. When a pack gets big and can't cram any more stuff into it...freeze it and go on to pack A2 or whatever. Then,when somebody on the team releases a new bat they can say....you need pack A or you need pack B...instead of....you need packs A,B,2,4,9,23 and that tree pack that Fred made at simworld.net.

Instead you have TEAM SIM...Bob's pack A...TEAM SIM....Joe's pack 2....TEAM SIM....Ralphs pack 1-B....TEAM SIM....Tim's pack 2.25 version 2.....it's absurd and confusing. quote>

If this was a corporate structure where you could reorganize the current structure into a more efficient and lucrative venture, then this is probably the way to go. But this is just a fan site, and there are many groups and clubs meeting and exchanging their wares here.

You'd have better luck standardizing a flea market.

Now who do I see about getting my paycheck??

[Filasimo 1]

Looks like I will requote myself in case noone even read my post the first time.

Originally posted by: Filasimo My god spoiled brats is right. Here's an example I was downloading some stuff I want for my upcoming city i will be building and so i ran that nifty little program that is the BSC cleanitol. for you people out there who do not know and is just lazy to spend the afternoon downloading some stuff its a program that helps you track down missing dependencies. well i ran the cleanitol master list and it spent about 2-3 mins scanning my plugin folders and it found that i was missing 11 dependencies. it then gave me the ones i was missing and links to them. i then followed all the links and it took me to where they are and so i downloaded all 11. after installing them i ran the cleanitol scan with the master list and it said now im up to date with all dependencies....how long it took? 30 mins max.....now was it really that hard? no i had a smoke listened to some music and before you know it i was done and updated with everything. knowing that the cleanitol makes life much more easier i dont see it a problem downloading so many dependencies bc theres a program to help you look for it....so for all you people crying about it and being spoiled take atleast 1 hour of your life and do what you gotta do to enjoy the custom content we make for you guys. only complaining and whining about how theres so many dependencies will only show how ignorant you are and lazy. you want to complain heres an easy analogy. you have a major paper to write you need all the sources and citations to make your paper. you have to look for all of them throughout the web hmm thats strange thats the same thing as bats having dependencies...the bat is your paper and the dependencies are the sources and citations that make up the paper. THINK ABOUT IT!quote>

My advice stop complaining about how much space it takes up. The more custom content that is developed will take up more room than just the dependencies. If you really want to build cities go play with legos instead of being too demanding.

[BC_Rich_Warlock 1]

hey this is what i got a problem with. i see all these wicked sweet cj's that have great ideas and even better lots but half of the ones i find on the stex are either "BLOCKED FOR ADMIN. PURPOSES" or the dependencies for those lots are bloked. i mean if they're going to block 'emwhy not just delete the lots or somthin.

[Godzillaman 21]

Hehehe you all think sc4 is hard with custom content? Buy Microsoft train simulator and give cc a shot there. You'd have to hunt down files that have a file name that is not related. Its next to impossible to find. Then you get some nice looking train, put it in and run the game. Now you'd be thinking that the little description didn't say it needed anything. You go in the game and you try to run it but it says you need a file. So you go to the README file and see you need PAYware! I'd like to see some people even try to get custom content into MSTS. For those that do with ease...good for you

So, think sc4 cc is a problem? Buy MSTS...see the horrors you're lucky you don't face!

Downloading for a bit is better than badmouthing dependencies. Download the Big main files and You're set. Its that simple. You don't need to do it again! (unless your computer gets packed full of viruses  )

[Cleaner475 150]

i wish someone would develop a search that would search for props on the STEX, LEX and all other major exhcnages. that would be possibly the handiest thing ever because half the trouble is finding them.

[patriots_1228 51]

cleaner-the LEX has a dependency search.

north country dude

-your right I could use some extra money where is my check?!!

[Filasimo 1]

Cleaner: Its called the BSC Cleanitol, it not only notes if you are missing a dependency but links you to where they can be found. look into it

[Cleaner475 150]

does it do all files or just BSC ones?

Richard

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

My only problem with dependencies is, dependencies that require dependencies. Ie - You download this mall from the STEX (no, I'm not referring to the LBT or SimGoober malls, or any other actual one, this is strictly an example for illustration purposes), and it requires some buildings in order for it to work. You get the buildings required, only to find that the buildings required, require more prop packs and buildings! This is the only thing that really angers me about dependencies. It's annoying, but I still get them anyway...

However, I think that it is a bit ridiculous not to download a lot simply because it has a lot of dependencies.

Another thing, I think that it should be a rule on the STEX that locked dependency packs that have been compiled into a larger pack MUST provide a link from the original dependency description page... It is quite aggravating to have to find the larger pack by searching, as sometimes these moved files can be time consuming to find on big lots (that require more dependencies, therefore, more moved ones)

[Filasimo 1]

whats that sound? oh yeah its a violin playing stormy river......lets go for 3 in re-requoting myself:

Looks like I will requote myself in case noone even read my post the first time.

Originally posted by: Filasimo My god spoiled brats is right. Here's an example I was downloading some stuff I want for my upcoming city i will be building and so i ran that nifty little program that is the BSC cleanitol. for you people out there who do not know and is just lazy to spend the afternoon downloading some stuff its a program that helps you track down missing dependencies. well i ran the cleanitol master list and it spent about 2-3 mins scanning my plugin folders and it found that i was missing 11 dependencies. it then gave me the ones i was missing and links to them. i then followed all the links and it took me to where they are and so i downloaded all 11. after installing them i ran the cleanitol scan with the master list and it said now im up to date with all dependencies....how long it took? 30 mins max.....now was it really that hard? no i had a smoke listened to some music and before you know it i was done and updated with everything. knowing that the cleanitol makes life much more easier i dont see it a problem downloading so many dependencies bc theres a program to help you look for it....so for all you people crying about it and being spoiled take atleast 1 hour of your life and do what you gotta do to enjoy the custom content we make for you guys. only complaining and whining about how theres so many dependencies will only show how ignorant you are and lazy. you want to complain heres an easy analogy. you have a major paper to write you need all the sources and citations to make your paper. you have to look for all of them throughout the web hmm thats strange thats the same thing as bats having dependencies...the bat is your paper and the dependencies are the sources and citations that make up the paper. THINK ABOUT IT!

My advice stop complaining about how much space it takes up. The more custom content that is developed will take up more room than just the dependencies. If you really want to build cities go play with legos instead of being too demanding.

[Bluebeard 0]

How many here has had a gun pointed to there head forcing them to download "Free" custom content?.

  How many of you complainers even attempted to Bat something worth the community downloading?.

[ilikehotdogsalot 307]

ok that's great filasimo

[Cleaner475 150]

Bluebeard - calm down, this thread is where people can share their opnion on this issue and its no a place for people to get all angry about it.

Richard

[Silur 3,302]

Hi, All ...

I work very easy with thousands of dependencies for SC4 now ...

I have 3 groups of dependencies:

- First = I work with this today,

- Second = I will work with this tomorrow ( for I-ht, High Density Objects and others ...),

- Third = Box for archives with thousands trees, flower plates, modern cars, peoples, etc ....

And I delete all secondary dependencies in any lots without any regret ...

I think about abnormal state with 1 GB Props in my Plugins !!!

No more ...

And we must say "Best regard" for all Baters of SC4 - this is very heavy work !!!

Thank's ...

But, life is life ...

[Shingure 56]

Ok. After looking into this issue since early September I have come to a conclusion.

First off for those that create custom content . You are doing a bang up job at keeping SC4 fun and kickin. But I must say that Physco-Teddy has a point. I have looked up a certain lot. I got the lot. Had 5 dependencies. Ok. So I get those dependencies. Then I found out that out of the 5 dependencies 3 had dependences. So I got those. Then 2 of the dependencies from that bunch have their own props. Which is another 50 or so dependencies.So in the end it gets to a point in which it's a headache. Putting up so much of an effort looking for these lots. Then you have to worry about space. And compacter programs arent as reliable as they seem. They crash and corrupt or outwrite files and make a bunch of mistakes. The Cleanitols work to a CERTAIN extent by in the end it can only go so far. Plus There was a statement said about how the author's content cant be mixed up with others. Well over in LEX Bixel's stuff is spread across 12 prop packs. And for what. If I was speaking in algebra here arent isnt all of bixel's stuff like terms. So can theybe combined to a certain point to avoid the " Run around "Factor. Yes , I think so. And the do it yourself thing runs along with what I have said above. Some compresser programs arent that reliable.

For those of you who download the content. If you are too lazy to go out and get the dependencies so be it. Or rather lot it yourself. Ive seen for myself that alot of custom content costs money. And I also note that were are lucky to have a rule in the SC4CCC

( Simcity 4 Custom Content Constitution ) that says that by law of the site content must be free. But all I ask is not complain. Ive complained I know, I sound like a hypocrit. But I looked into the issue further before making this statement. In the end try to use folders and better still yet just incase of crashes store your content on disks. If you dont have the room yet you have the buildings themselfs and lot editor then be creative. That's what our 4 Fathers did here when Simtropolis didnt have BATs they had Lots in which they used the props to make new buildings.

Anyway This is the end of my statement.

Creators - Keep It simple silly in terms of content and dependencies

Downloaders - Your choice to download and lot . If you dont want the dependencies you can lot yourself or dont get it. If you do want it I suggest you get the dependencies.

Shinji E. Gureji

[jplumbley 5]

Originally posted by: Psycho_Teddy My only problem with dependencies is, dependencies that require dependencies. Ie - You download this mall from the STEX (no, I'm not referring to the LBT or SimGoober malls, or any other actual one, this is strictly an example for illustration purposes), and it requires some buildings in order for it to work. You get the buildings required, only to find that the buildings required, require more prop packs and buildings! This is the only thing that really angers me about dependencies. It's annoying, but I still get them anyway...

However, I think that it is a bit ridiculous not to download a lot simply because it has a lot of dependencies.

Another thing, I think that it should be a rule on the STEX that locked dependency packs that have been compiled into a larger pack MUST provide a link from the original dependency description page... It is quite aggravating to have to find the larger pack by searching, as sometimes these moved files can be time consuming to find on big lots (that require more dependencies, therefore, more moved ones)quote>

 

Hello Psycho..

I have to point something out here, that may shed a bit more light about this.  I am only taking your example because you choose to share it.

When you download a BAT/LOT from the LEX, it will contain a SC4Model and a SC4Lot at very minimum.  Dependancies are derived from the SC4Lot file, a dependancy is a SC4Model file which is on the Lot.  So, what do dependancies tell you?

They tell you where the Prop Models (trees, cars, anything, you name it...) come from.

They tell you what Building Model you need (there is only one building model per Lot).  In most cases the Model is provided for you in the download.

But, if the Lot is for a building Modelled by another creator it may have been uploaded as secondary LOT on the STEX or LEX.  In this case, the only place to find this Model is in the Authors original download (and cited as a Dependancy).  It is only a dependancy for the SC4Model file contained within it, but it will come with a Lot file.  And the dependancy list for this download is for the Lot that comes with it, not for the model itself (unless it is a Custom Query).  This means, you do not have to download all the "new" dependancies because you are downloading the Authors original upload.  But, you must make sure that you remove the SC4Lot file that comes with the Dependant Model file, otherwise you will get Lots growing from this new SC4Lot fie that you did not intend to download because it will have its own missing dependancies.

I hope this has helped someone to an extent.  There are no Dependancies for Dependancies (unless it is a Custom Query for a Building File).

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

I see both sides. The dependency issue has gotten very fragmented, sometimes it is very confusing. This is something that many have complained about; by me as well to some degree. I do enjoy, and am grateful for, all the custom content. I just find the dependencies, either you want the plugin or you don't.

No single entity, site, or BAT team can corral everything. There's too many sites with too many BATters for there ever to be a comprehensive pool or clearinghouse.

I stopped using Cleanitol after things disappeared that shouldn't have after each of 3 uses. I don't know what the problem is, and don't care. I will do things manually without getting too worked up about it. Why? It's a free program, and there are no guarantees. Same goes for all custom content. There are no guarantees about dependencies, or their availability.

[SC4BOY 20]

Just as a side note on Cleanitol. I assume you are aware that all files moved by Cleanitol are simply MOVED to another directory (the cleanitol folder under Sim City 4 folder) and that those files are EASILY put BACK EXACTLY WHERE THEY CAME FROM just by executing the ".bat" file that is in the folder with the set of files that were just moved. They are named by DATE (military style) and if more than one on the same date, they are NUMBERED after that..

Have fun

[spazz0217 0]

     I Dont understand what the problem is. I am new to the site and to downloading things for simcity 4 but I have been a avid fan of the series and have played simcity on almost every platform availible. One thing that I do know is that when I was playing Simcity 3000 and downloading stuff for it there wasnt a whole lot of diversity in the work. I love seeing the work that has been put into the different lots and mods for this game and when downloading different lots and things for my cities. I dont mind the dependencies at all. I have noticed that most lots reuse the same prop and texture packs. ocasionally I will find a random new one but not that often. 

     I also write down everything to keep organized, and when i am done downloading what I want for my cities I am going to copy my files onto a disk in case I have to reinstall. I have probably downloaded close to 300 different files and havent had a single problem with organization. The only problem i have is when i run into a broken link. But even then it only takes a few minutes to find what im lookin for because  i have registered at every site i need to find the files. It might be a little extra work but its what I want for my game. 

    If you dont want to put the effort in thats fine but the developers put a lot of work into their ART they dont deserve to be put down for it. I love the amount of different options I have for my cities now. I just wish that I had that amount of talent so that I could contribute as well. 

   Thank you to all that upload their work. Some of us really apreiciate it and especially because it is FREE. Keep up the good work.

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: Cicle Ying Chu Hello,I am a foreigner.I like to play Simcity very much.I want to make friends with you. [Let's just leave this bit out ok? - sam] Thanks!quote>

Members are reminded that they should not give out personal information such as names or email addresses, which could be used to identify them in real life.  Members should also not request such details from others either.

Making friends is great, but we do have a chat and forum system here for that, which does not require you to publicly reveal personal details in order to use it.

It would also be good to posts messages in their correct threads and keep the discussion on the intended topic.

[PhilsCafe 8]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this... but recently there have been repeatedly questions over in the SC4 General Discussion about locked or missing dependencies... most of them are BSC packs that are now all on sc4devotion.com exclusively. Maybe there should be a reference somewhere on this site, where to find them now and a link to the LEX Dependency List.

[Cleaner475 150]

Yeah they barely ever link to where you can get them now, its quite annoying then having to go to devotion and looking at the dependcy list or strolling through pages of section, nice idea,

Richard

[brodequin666 2]

Originally posted by: PhilsCafe I don't know if this is the right place to post this... but recently there have been repeatedly questions over in the SC4 General Discussion about locked or missing dependencies... most of them are BSC packs that are now all on sc4devotion.com exclusively. Maybe there should be a reference somewhere on this site, where to find them now and a link to the LEX Dependency List.

quote>

 

Good idea, you should do it! Good luck....

[Blackadar 4]

First of all, I salute everyone who makes the really neat custom content for SC4.

With that said, I dislike dependencies. I understand their purpose and I understand why they're necessary, but I don't like 'em. Why? As mentioned above, it can be very difficult to actually find dependencies. You'll find a lot that requires one, but can't find the dependency at all or find that it's locked. Then you run into the problem where one pack replaces another...especially when a mega pack rolls up AND updates individual packs. Plus people don't always use the full or correct name for their dependencies, making it difficult to figure out if "SimMegPack 4 XYZ123" is the same thing as "SimMegaPack 4". Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Then, of course, there are the lots that you download that use a dependency but didn't list it in the first place.

SimGoober's lots are amazing, but I bypass quite a few of them due to the number of dependencies they require. But that's my choice and is no reflection on his work. At least he clearly lists the dependencies...and I'm sure at some point I'll DL most of his dependencies and add 50 of his lots to my game. I just haven't gotten off my butt to do so. But if you're going to make custom content to post, you're making it to share with the community. As such, it never hurts to keep the dependencies in mind when creating custom content and, if at all possible, try to limit the number needed or stick to the most popular megapacks. But if you choose to not do so, that's you're choice and I don't begrudge it.

[BarbyW 40]

If you want simgoober's stuff you would be better downloading from the LEX at SC4Devotion as all his work has been updated and repackaged exclusively there.

[PhilsCafe 8]

Originally posted by: brodequin666

Originally posted by: PhilsCafe I don't know if this is the right place to post this... but recently there have been repeatedly questions over in the SC4 General Discussion about locked or missing dependencies... most of them are BSC packs that are now all on sc4devotion.com exclusively. Maybe there should be a reference somewhere on this site, where to find them now and a link to the LEX Dependency List.

quote>

 

Good idea, you should do it! Good luck....quote>

In fact, I'd do that if I had the time... but RL really is busy at the moment. But what I mean is that posting a short explanation from the BSC and the link to that list above at a prominent place on ST would do the trick.

As for dependencies in general... if you already have a lot of SG stuff, it should be bearable to download all of his dependency Mega packs from the LEX, then you're on the safe side.

[SC4BOY 20]

I guess they have RL's too?

[PhilsCafe 8]

^ Fair enough. I opened a new topic about "Dead dependencies". This is supposed to be a community created guide... everyone can contribute. We can profit from the knowledge of different people.

I personally am not sure if this is in the right place and if this is covered already somewhere else... if so, mods can feel free to move that topic or merge it... whatever you like.