The Dependency Debate

[north country dude 202]

Introduction.

After SimCity 4 and it's add-on Rush Hour came out in 2003, there have been many fansites all over the world supporting some sort of BAT/Lot/Mod file exchange in one form or another. This, in turn, has provided the SC4 player with over 10,000 different new and unique BAT models, Lot configurations, and Modifications to the game. For people who are, even today, just discovering the SimCity 4/Rush Hour game, this amount of custom content can be somewhat overwhelming.

In addition to the amount of custom content, people all over the world have been adding more props, more tile textures, and just plain more variation to the original game, for nearly three years. Much of these new props and tile textures have been released to the public, free of charge mind you, in the form of "dependencies".

"What's a dependency?"

Ever search through the STEX and find that perfect Lot for your City, only to read the description and find that it contains, *gasp*, a dependency? or even a *gulp* list of dependencies?

A dependency is a file that is required by that Lot for it to appear in the game. Without that dependent file(s), the lot will either appear as a big brown box, or show up with strange or missing props or textures.

If you really want that Lot, you need to get the dependent files it requires.

"Why do people post Lots with dependent files?"

Two reasons.

1) The user has a BAT, set of props, or Mod that is universal to the Lots that he or she is posting, and for the sake of simplicity and space, has posted the dependent file(s) prior to the release of their Lot.

2) The user has posted a Lot that includes the use of buildings, props and/or textures created by another member. More often than not, these dependent files have been previously posted as prop or texture packs, specifically for that purpose, for other people to use in their own creations.

"Why don't they just include those props or textures with their Lots?"

Again, two reasons.

1) The dependent file is universal to the User's creations. By releasing a prop or texture pack that is common to all or most of a User's work, he has saved you, the consumer, time and space in downloading their work.

2) Most important of all reasons, it may not belong to them. To include work produced by another without permission is considered Plagiarism. Copyright Law defines anything that you post on the Internet as "de facto" copyrighted by you. Posting another person's work in your own is illegal and will get you permanently banned from this site!

A typical newcomer will sometimes ask a Lot maker to do this, and the experienced Lot maker will either tell you "NO!" or ignore your request. The best advice is: Don't bother asking, you're just wasting your time. It's easier and safer if you just get the dependent file yourself. The download time is the same anyway.

"What if I have a problem with the Lot after I download it?"

1) Make sure you read and fully understand the description( and read-me file). Sometimes detailed instructions and uses are included here.

2) Make sure you have all of the listed dependencies. Also, check to make sure the dependent file doesn't have a dependent of it's own. Sometimes this happens.

3) Check to see if the Lot maker has a Building Support thread. Most experienced BAT and Lot makers have this and a link is usually posted in the description. It is easier to post a better description of the problem on the thread than in the comments box. Remember, you can't post pictures in the comments box, and a picture tells a thousand words!

"What if there are a lot of dependent files?"

That depends on how you feel about the Lot. If it is something you want, get the dependent files. If you feel that you can do it yourself without the dependent files, open your Lot Editor and get to work!

"How many dependencies is too many?"

Chances are, most of the dependent files are fairly common ones that you already have. If you don't already have them, get them anyway, obviously the Lot maker thought they were worth using.

If the Lot maker is somewhat experienced, you will find that there is a standard set of dependencies he or she uses, and after downloading a few of their lots, you will notice that the dependency list is actually shorter than it appears. Also, you will find that many dependent files are common to many of the high quality Lots on the STEX.

Many people will claim that dependencies are a hassle or they take up too much bandwidth or installing them slows the game down. Many people brag that their BAT's or Lot's have no dependencies and feel that the majority of the community will clap them on the back and say that is how it should always be done!

This where the debate begins.

The scope of this section is, hopefully, to put to rest the negative attitudes regarding the use of dependent files and to bust one or two 'myths' surrounding them.

The Dependency Debate.

Lately, there has been a great deal of conflict and negative comments and ratings surrounding the issue of dependent files and their use on the STEX.

For the person who does include a few dependencies with their Bat or Lot, those who despise or dislike the idea of using dependent files will invariably give the submitted file a bad rating(1 or 2) and a negative comment in the hopes that the author will be persuaded to never submit something that the anti-dependent

person feels is unwanted by the general community.

There have actually been peopled who have been flamed or given harsh unwarranted criticism for their creations based entirely on the one fact that the submitted Lot does or doesn't have dependencies!

The one fact that most people have overlooked is that having dependent files is expressly not forbidden, and is in fact encouraged in order to prevent flagrant plagiarism and decrease bandwidth!

The myths.

"This is unacceptable because of the dependencies, especially[for] the Dial Up users."

-This is a generalization that is plainly based on preference. I'm a 56k Dial-up user and I have no problem with downloading dependent files. In addition, I've also been collecting SC4 stuff since the game came out in 2003. I've found out ways to get around the slow speed of dial-up and have adjusted accordingly. Using downloaders and scheduling my downloads is just one of the ways I've adjusted to the huge amount of custom content available.

"I hate having to download 4[or 6,or 8]Mb of props for just one[Lot]."

-So do I, and downloading huge files for one little lot is ludicrous. But if you plan on getting more stuff in that series, or the Prop/Texture Pack is a common file used by many authors, why not get it?

Also consider, the lot or package may be geared toward a more advanced playing style and clearly not meant for the beginner. The Lot or package may reflect a certain type of city or region. It's not the author's requirement that you have to use it. It may not be your style, it might be too advanced or complex, but for what ever reason, if it doesn't meet your needs, look for something else.

Keep in mind that SC4/Rush Hour has been out for a long time and many people have been playing, tweaking, and making custom content for it for just as long. There are also many people who are just picking it up for the first time and are overwhelmed by the amount of user-created content that is available.

Because of this fact, it is entirely fair to classify the playing styles as beginner, intermediate, and advanced. This should also be true for the custom content as well. More on this later.

"Dependent files take up too much bandwidth, or space on my hard drive."

-I have to say that this is entirely not true with regards to bandwidth, and as far as space on the hard drive, well that's up to you.

In regard to bandwidth, basically, the dependent files are meant for downloading multiple lots in that series. You download the first file(the essentials, props and/or textures),

which is large, and then each subsequent file(the building model and Lot file), which are not large.

"My BAT has no dependencies!" [paraphrased and usually printed in bold red letters]

-Good, as a BAT model, it shouldn't. Saying so is just redundant.

Sometimes this brag applies to Lots, in which case, it's a matter of preference and purpose. If it's a single Lot that is not part of a series or larger package, this is feasible and desirable, and again, the remark is redundant.

But also consider that if the Lot's intention is to provide something new, and/or unique, to the game, and using the standard Maxis '8 color crayon' scheme is not sufficient to present the author's concept or idea, then dependencies may be used.

There is a lot of stuff that the Maxis designers left out, but to compensate for this they gave us, the consumer, the LotEditor, the Building Architect Tool, and a somewhat open-ended game platform. Clearly the intention was for the consumer to create their own custom content and share it with anyone interested.

By using the dependent files and giving credit, this person is supporting and recognizing the hard work of the many members who have contributed to this and other websites featuring SC4 custom content. Why make it seem as if they are doing something wrong?

 

"Dependencies slow down the game."

-This is a generalization that is incorrect because of the one fact that every single plugin you download is a dependent file where the game engine is concerned.

What slows the game down is, primarily, the number of Plugins that you have installed. Keep in mind that the printed System Requirements and Recommended System for playing SimCity 4 with the Rush Hour add-on Pack don't take into account the number of plugins that you can possibly have. The more plugins you have, the larger the look-up table becomes and subsequently the slower your game will run.

Dependencies are plugins. They expand the amount of props, buildings and tile textures the game engine can use. Faster CPU's, larger amounts of RAM, and a decent graphics card will enable you to use many plugins without any noticable slowdown. But, if you have an older, low-end computer, then you might not be able to use as many plugins as you would like.

It does not matter if the plugins are dependencies, BATs, Lots, Modds, or a mixture of all, data is data. The game doesn't care if you have too much data. If you have 100 BATs with 0 dependents, or 10 BATs with 10 dependents each, and you find that your system runs slow, it's not because you have too many dependencies, it's because you have too much stuff!

Again, whether or not you use dependent files, is a matter of personal preference, and personal ability. If you are selective about your plugins, periodically clean out the unused stuff and store it offline, and occasionally defrag your hard drive, you will find that you can get more enjoyment from the game and the Simtropolis community in general.

Advanced Playing Styles.

As mentioned earlier, this game has been around for awhile. This means that there is now custom content made by and for people who are intimately familiar with the game's inner workings. This is stuff that often takes many hours of dedicated work and attention to detail. Then, they present this stuff to you, for free!

Lot series and packages that are somewhat complex and have dependent files are primarily meant for a more advanced playing style. There is a lot of content on the STEX and similar exchanges around the world, that is meant for City Journal style of play, as well as for people who want to make a certain style or period of city. There is content for Sci-Fi, ancient times and everything in-between. There is variation everywhere and more is constantly being added for all playing styles.

Conclusion.

The argument over dependencies is juvenile and is primarily a matter of preference. Downloading a file and it's associated dependents is entirely up to the user. Flaming or leaving immature comments is also up to the user, but said user runs the risk of appearing foolish to the entire world, and flaming can get you banned.

What you keep in your plugins folder is up to you. I have no control over your preferences, the amount of RAM you have, or how much space you have on your hard drive. That's your responsibility. Limiting yourself to the number of plugins you can have is entirely up to you.

Dependent files are a fact. They are used everywhere. Bashing some author's creation just because it has dependent files is like bashing someone for breathing, or having

too much hair, or wearing a purple shirt with a green tie.

How many is too many? That's up to you but to the general community, it really isn't a valid criticism.

Example of a un-informed response:

https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/index.cfm?id=15200  -see comment by 'cebolinha65'

I'll be honest, this kind of remark had only one intention, to hurt. What this user doesn't realize is, that he or she has just shown what type of person they really are to the rest of the community.

Some suggestions for handling dependencies:

Use a downloader program.

I use Stardownloader, because of it's simplicity and lack of 'in your face' advertising that some downloaders have. It also lets you schedule your downloads, and will automatically dial up and even continue interrupted downloads. It integrates with almost any browser, including Firefox.

www.stardownloader.com

There are many other downloader programs available that will greatly improve the downloading road-block for 56k dial up users.(I live in a rural area with no alternatives for access to the Internet)

Organize your plugins folders.

Surprisingly, many people are not very computer savy, but getting to know and love your Windows Explorer program will certainly improve the playability of your game and is an invaluable tool for organizing your plugin folders.

I organize my folders into BATs, Lots, Mods, Props, and Textures. But what works for me, may not work for you. Devise a system of organization that makes sense for you and your playing style.

When making Lots, pay close attention to the dependencies you are using.

This is for both the experienced and inexperienced Lot and BAT maker alike. If you find that you are using only one prop from a large dependency pack, consider either omitting that prop, or getting permission from the props author for inclusion into your Lot.

Since I'm a notorious 'kit-basher', what I do is load only the prop and texture packages that are relevant to the type of lot I'm trying to create. This way, I keep my dependencies list shorter than if I loaded everything I have. My lists do tend to be longer than the average, but after using the same ones over and over, for each subsequent Lot that I release, if the user has any one of my Lots, for them the download list is actually very short.

Another useful tool for many reasons is the SC4Tool and can be found in the Modds and Downloads section of this website. (What things were like before this handy tool came out, I shudder to think of the late nights spent debugging malfunctioning Lots)

Pay attention to what you are downloading!

For single BAT structures, and Lot files, read the descriptions before downloading. If there are dependents listed and the file is not part of a series, or the dependents are not really necessary for the Lot, consider doing it yourself, passing it up, or getting the Lot without the dependents and add your own.

If the BAT or Lot is part of a series or is part of a larger concept or project, then you can almost be sure that the file has dependencies. If it's not what you want, then move on.

Consider also that the Lot may be large, like an Airport, or a factory complex, or something that represents a large installation of some kind. This kind of package will certainly have dependencies and is more than likely for a more advanced style of play. If that is your style, or what you were looking for, get it and the dependents.

Kit Bashing.

That's what I do. Basically all I'm 'selling' is a package of instructions on how to build what you see on the box's picture. Some of the models used in my packages are not included on the STEX and you must register at a different site to retrieve the required models. For example; I sometimes use Gizmo's vehicle props in my lots. The lots will work without them(no brown boxes).

But I actually had some one flame the Lot because of this fact. All the ***** had to do was ask me, and I would have told him how to get the props or how to work around it. If the problem was downloading from Gizmo's site after registering, I would have informed him that his site does not allow downloaders and help him work around that problem too.

Sometimes, I use BAT models from Japan. Navigating those sites can be difficult if you don't speak Japanese, but there is help for the asking.  I always provide as direct a link as possible to the BAT model in question, or just not use the model at all. Remember to check the 'Support Thread'!

Suggestions for newcomers.

Although the term 'Lurking' has on the face of it, a bad reputation, it is, in practice, not a bad thing at all. Lurk before you Leap, is the best suggestion I can give a newcomer to any website.

Read the tutorials. Search the threads for concepts that aren't clear to you. Read and follow the instructions. And again, read, read and finally, read some more.

Under no circumstances should you trash or flame a person's Lot just because you thought it had too many dependencies! Keep in mind that 'Flaming' is a banning offense. Also, if you trash an experienced Lot maker's work with negative comments, you run a very high risk of appearing very immature and foolish to the other Simtropolis members who are familiar with that person's work.

In order to make yourself look good to the other members on this site, and possibly keep yourself from getting permanently banned, it is best to follow this advice: If you like it, get it and it's associated dependencies, if you don't, just move on. No sense wasting your time writing a negative comment that will help nobody, when you could be searching for something more to your liking.

Don't just leave a comment saying that it looks nice, (based on the STEX pictures) and rate it with the caveat that it has too many dependents for your taste. That's not very intelligent at all. Without actually downloading it and putting it together, you really have no idea of whats in the box.

For the people who don't like the fact that some of the things on the STEX require you to get Prop Pack A and Texture Pack B, they shouldn't really bother to comment, since the use of dependencies is allowed. If the Lot or package clearly states "some assembly required" or " paint and glue not included" , there's really no point in complaining about it.

If you don't have something constructive to add, why bother saying anything at all?

Here is a special caveat I put into one of my Lot descriptions:

"I try to keep the list of dependent files to a minimum, but at the same time, try to create unique, realistic, and visually interesting Lots based on my custom Railyard Textures. Consider, I went to the trouble of searching, downloading, assembling, and finally, testing the modified Lot. You only download it and the dependencies required. Your job is easy."

Some friendly advice from:

ncd, and Arf of the North

[Kevin 101]

Glad we could get these articles merged and into their proper places... the one in the omnibus has been updated as well

[High5flyier 7]

Thank you for your article.I have at last taken the plunge and become a member. For the last two years I have been a devoted lurker. There isn't a thread on this site that I haven't read,some many times. Becuase I have been studying and learning all this stuff my first week in downloading and finnally getting to use all the neat bats and lots has been a very rewarding experience. I now understand what the lot Editor does and becuase of the tuturails I actually started playing (working) with it. This is a serious hobby that I have been consumed with Simcity 2000. At the present time you find me looking at this page becuase I am trying to get a good handle on this dependency location problem. I hope in the future to be able to contribute some of the things I have learned about this art of the sim. Thank you and remember if you write it I will read it!

[paolosando 0]

hello.i asking a questions.I have unloaded from simtropolis of the stex.when I go them to insert in the city come visualizes to you as of the packages gift with ribbons.com and I can make in order to resolve the problem? someone answers to me.thanks...excuseme for my english but i not american...if someone succeeds to answer to me also in Italian good thing would be one.

[BananaPhone1 2]

Well that was a long read. Anyways I don't mind either way. Thing that annoys me is when people just write the name of the dependancy but not an actual link(this is more common in older BAT's I find). AS long as there is a link to all the files I don't mind downloading a whole heap of dependancies.  

Also paolosando this means you haven't downloaded all the dependancies(I think).  Go back to where you got the download, install all the dependancies again and if it says a file already exists cancel the download.  This way you can make sure you have all the dependancies.

[taechunsa 0]

My biggest concern is with lost dependencies. This is mainly an issue with older lots. I have a couple that I downloaded but had to delete because I could not find the file that was listed as a dependency. I also have some trouble with updates that are not overly clear about which is the newest.

Other then that I have no problem with dependencies and use many BSC lots. However, their documentation is top notch.

[ShadeSlayer 15]

Originally posted by: taechunsa My biggest concern is with lost dependencies. This is mainly an issue with older lots. I have a couple that I downloaded but had to delete because I could not find the file that was listed as a dependency. I also have some trouble with updates that are not overly clear about which is the newest.

Other then that I have no problem with dependencies and use many BSC lots. However, their documentation is top notch.quote>

Yeah, I hate it when the dependencies link me to something deleted or not there, or even a site written entirely in Japanese. Not helpful.

It'd be nice if we could include other dependencies if we gave them full credit, hooked onto them like a hooker near a rich guy. If you don't understand metaphors, then putting their name everywhere (in the readme, in the file description).

By the way, great article.

[castironpigeon 1]

Excellent post north country dude! You've offered a lot of points in favor of dependencies. However, calling this debate juvenile is unfair and takes a lot of the moral strength from your argument. Let me offer a short list of counterpoints to balance out the argument.

1. As taechunsa and ShadeSlayer mentioned, there are broken dependency links in quite a few STEX submissions nowadays. This is partly due to the split between ST and SC4D, but also because old packs are updated or recombined and the authors of either the old dependency pack or the old lot never bother updating descriptions. It becomes a real pain when you have a list of dependencies a dozen long and half are broken links while the other half are now in MEGA packs that any newcomer to the site won't know about.

2. Dependencies complicate the process for newcomers. We can discuss all day the pros and cons of dependencies, but at the end of it all it's clear that downloading one file and sticking into your plugins directory is far more convenient than downloading two or more and doing the same. Somebody that gets turned away from downloading custom content because he's overwhelmed might put down the game forever. That same user today could turn into the next SimGoober a year from now.

2a. Also regarding newcomers, but not the same point. You mention in your post that even though you may have a long list of dependencies, it won't matter once a person has downloaded them all before. I agree, but what about somebody who sets his eyes on your lot first thing when he gets to the STEX? I read somewhere that ST is still getting new registrations, so these points regarding newcomers are not moot.

3. Organization does not come easily to many people, myself included. I've reinstalled my plugins folder 3 times so far trying to find a way to organize my files that works for me. I think I've finally gotten it down. (As a side note, organization is a great life skill and I do appreciate being forced to learn it through this exercise.)

4. I often surf the STEX and other exchanges when I'm not on my home computer. I don't know what dependencies I already have, so when I go to download custom content to email to myself later, I'll only download what I know I can install later, which usually means zero dependencies or dependencies that are very common.

5. Regarding the argument that another user's creations can't be used directly, but rather must be included as a seperate link... suppose I want to write a research paper, but I'm not allowed to use direct quotes. Instead, I need to leave blank spaces in my paper and cite the bibliographical information for every quote I use. Suppose I'm making a remix of a song, but I can't sample another person's work. Suppose I'd like to make an art collage. You get the picture. Nothing here is being used for commercial purposes. I feel that a bibliography included with every submission that has every bit of information needed to get the original and give credit to its creator ought to be quite sufficient.

All that said, I completely agree with releasing a prop or texture pack when many different lots use it. I love the megapacks released by BSC and others because by downloading all of their megapacks you no longer need to worry about dependencies for the most part. I also agree with released prop packs for the purpose of letting others use your work in their own creations.

I won't bash an upload that has a mile long list of dependencies, I just won't get it. I will, however, praise lots like those released by BLaM for their dependency policy. It's an issue of being user friendly and having respect for the person who will be downloading your content. The elitist attitude of some modders really bothers me. I appreciate the work that all the modders do. Without them, I wouldn't be playing the game. However, without the rest of us, they'd all be preaching to an empty choir. Respect needs to go both ways, and when I see a long list of dependencies I feel that the creator of that work has very little respect for my time.

My intention here is not to hurt, only to give some food for thought. I like the trend I've seen lately of custom content referring to only one or two megapacks and I hope this will continue. I'm also all for BLaM's policy. If any improvement can be made, I'd say it's in cleaning up the STEX so that old contributions point to the correct dependencies because many people new to the game or site and many veterans who are re-installing after a reformat depend on old content that nobody's touched in 3 or 4 years. Thanks for listening and thanks for the lots!

[north country dude 202]

Perhaps you're right about calling the entire debate juvenile. Clear, concise discussion about people's preferences isn't juvenile. But consider; debating about personal preferences helps nothing, bashing more advanced content because the beginner cannnot cope is what the debate was about. When viewed realistically and with an eye toward tolerance, the entire debate begins to sound a bit childish.

I concur with most of the points you raise in your response, except one. The point about International Copyright Law. Sorry, but when I post something on the STEX, I still own the copyrights to it. If I post a BAT, or new texture, I have defacto copyright to it. When somebody posts something to the STEX, and somebody else downloads it and uses it in his or her own creation with out giving credit to the author, they are guilty of plagiarism. Plain and simple. No argument.

The rules that a member agrees to when signing up for membership here state that plagiarism is a bannable offense. Although you may feel that a bibliography should be sufficient, setting things up this way just opens the door to the, let's say 'miscreants' who would abuse this. Dependencies close this loophole completely.

Anyway, as I said, I concur with your views. Making things user friendly is great for the new members and beginners is perfectly fine. But what about the people who are avid fans and want something a little bit more advanced? Within the original article is a section entitled "Advanced Playing Styles" This addresses the issue of using dependencies for advanced playing styles.

Dependencies are a fact. They are used everywhere, not just here at Simtropolis, but at fansites all over the world. Even BLaM uses them( I should know, since I'm one of the founders.) Debating about whether a worldwide accepted method of exchanging custom content should be allowed really is pointless. It solves nothing, it changes nothing.

Consider these two points. 1) Even Maxis made dependencies, and 2) the open-ended structure of SC4 and Rush Hour were made for the use of dependencies. Without 'dependencies', there would be very little custom content available, because as far as the game program is concerned, every item downloaded and installed is a 'Plugin'.

But, like any method, or procedure, it can be abused. Sometimes dependencies aren't even necessary. Care should be taken when using them. That's all.

As far as putting down the game forever because some people make custom content that is too complicated for the beginner, well, that really hasn't happened, as far as I know. The beginner tends to get/download only what they can handle. The ones who don't, and subsequently get angry with the author and bash or flame his/her creation with nasty comments is the juvenile attitude I was addressing with the original article.

That was the entire purpose of the article. It was meant to show that there really isn't a debate about something that is merely a matter of preference and to show that there are more mature ways to handle the frustration of dealing with the use of dependencies.

Now, thank you for taking the time to read my rather wordy article about the use of dependencies. Perhaps a more accurate title would have been "The Dependency Disscusion", but, I needed something that would grab people's attention. I guess it worked.

It grabbed yours.

Thanx and Peace!

ncd/Arf

[Silur 3,300]

There are many words - there are many minds, but sum = ZERO

PROPS help me and MOD's help me with my own SC4.

I'm concord with North Country Dude .....

[lucasey 16]

Just out of curiosity because I have yet to organize my plugins folder, but, what if you download a Mega pack, that has the same file thats currently in your plug-in folder, does that cause a conflict that might cause the game to display brown boxes?

[dedgren 830]

I do believe that most, if not all of the BATs and LOTs that are caught up in dependency issues that were done by folks who upload to the SC4D LEX are in the process of being updated. I'm not involved on "that side of the house," so to speak, but if anyone is ever looking for custom content that appears to be broken based on a missing dependency and has made reasonable efforts to find it but turned up empty-handed, I'd be glad to help to the extent a LEX uploader might be involved- please PM me here- I'm around and check them at least weekly.

David

[patfirefghtr 159]

Originally posted by: lucasey Just out of curiosity because I have yet to organize my plugins folder, but, what if you download a Mega pack, that has the same file thats currently in your plug-in folder, does that cause a conflict that might cause the game to display brown boxes?quote>

 

To answer your question no it wont but in the mega packs it is strongly suggested that

you remove the other items first as does seem to be a duplicate file so to avoid it that is

why the mega pack is there lol

[Intrepid 20]

My opinion is that while newcomers may need help to get to know what it involves when adding lots and bats into the game, it is really up to that person to read the site rules, read the readme files and check out the support threads. That is what I did as a newbie (although it has been three years until now that I started playing sc4 again) and it is worth taking the time to do it properley. I think people who come in and flame the authors about dependancies should be more respectful and patient considering the hard work and effort put in by all the authors to provide them with FREE content.

If I were an author (one day I might have a go at learning batting and lot making but RL cuts too much into my time) I would have a "take it or leave it" attitude, the help is there for them if they are overwhelmed.

[YannickSHE 0]

After lurking and reading almost everything on ST for 2 years, I'm still overwhelmed by everything. Of course, as far as mod are concerned, I got the essentials, and that's something I figured out quickly.

But anything regarding BATs, Lots, etc ... it still confuses me. Of course, real life takes most of my time, and when I get days off, I try to spend my time the most on SC4 and ST. But the thing is, I always find myself confused and lost with all the dependencies and everything surrounding it.

I just wish, first of all, that ST would have sections on the website exclusively for beginners, or for advanced players ... that way, a beginner or a new member of ST would not get lost within everything.

When a mega pack is updated, or when a lot is modified, would be nice to have a place where we could see the latest "updates".

I did install last year all the BSC, SimGoober, NDEX stuff, my computer takes it, no problem at all. But when I stopped to play, for like 1 month, went back to the game, and some things weren't functioning properly. That was very discouraging.

Also, to have a list of the "essentials" dependency packs would be great. A List that covers 75% of what we need, as beginners. That way, I'll know what packs are downloaded, and when I download a new lot, I'll read the readme and I'll be able to see quickly if I have all dependencies or not. Such a list has to exist on ST ... but couldn't find it.

Great article by the way.

Cheers.

[simmaster07 1,220]

If the dependencies are just lots or BATs, why would it be a major violation... a violation at all of the US Copyright laws. What is so important that the creators will say no anyway?

It's so discouraging. I have to cancel my creation of the ModPac 2007. Plus, SimCity users in my neighborhood keep asking me for such packs. "Not even into DAT's?" They been saying "Copyrights stink", and "It's a lot deal with it. I'm getting yelled and cried at for this. A promise broken.

I want a refund on my packaging tools.

Sorry for the double post, but also, I'm not charging out here in life or on SimTropolis. Not anywhere.

Combined double post. ~ VT

[north country dude 202]

Originally posted by: simmaster07 If the dependencies are just lots or BATs, why would it be a major violation... a violation at all of the US Copyright laws. What is so important that the creators will say no anyway?

It's so discouraging. I have to cancel my creation of the ModPac 2007. Plus, SimCity users in my neighborhood keep asking me for such packs. "Not even into DAT's?" They been saying "Copyrights stink", and "It's a lot deal with it. I'm getting yelled and cried at for this. A promise broken.

I want a refund on my packaging tools.

quote>

Ummm,...yeah,...I'm sorry you kids think that these laws stink, but they are primarily meant to protect the authors of custom content from plagiarism. As I said before, when you signed up to become a member of this site, you agreed to follow it's rules, so,...who's really breaking promises?

Also, if you look at the bottom of each of your posts, you will see several options listed. They are;

Reply : Quote : Top : Bottom : Edit : Delete

if you use the Edit option, you will eliminate the need for 'double posting'.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: simmaster07 If the dependencies are just lots or BATs, why would it be a major violation... a violation at all of the US Copyright laws. What is so important that the creators will say no anyway?quote>

This is the internet.  US copyright laws don't exist here - especially since this is a Canadian site.  With that said though, we still consider a creation to be the intellectual property of the creator.  This means that unless you make some serious modifications to it, you can't upload it.

It's so discouraging. I have to cancel my creation of the ModPac 2007. Plus, SimCity users in my neighborhood keep asking me for such packs. "Not even into DAT's?" They been saying "Copyrights stink", and "It's a lot deal with it. I'm getting yelled and cried at for this. A promise broken.quote>

Honestly, you getting yelled and cried at isn't our fault, so don't bring that here.  If someone says you can't use it, then you can't use it.

I want a refund on my packaging tools.quote>

I hope this was meant facetiously.  However, one thing I've learned in my year of moderating it to not assume it in situations like this.

Sorry for the double post, but also, I'm not charging out here in life or on SimTropolis. Not anywhere.quote>

The fact that you're not charging doesn't make it right.  None of us are, but that doesn't mean that we all get to do whatever we want with another person's files.

[zzsim 3]

Great article NCD! Hopefully this whole issue can be put behind us now. I do have one thing to add though, as a tip to lot makers. Always start with an empty plugins folder before starting a lot that you will eventualy publish. If while making the lot you need something like say textures, open up a texture pack such as the BSC Mega Texture Pack and use the textures from that. Do the same thing for props. This way you keep track of all of the custom content you are using in your lot and don't end up with something like some random lamp post that requires its own dependency. By doing this you cut down on the number of dependencies as well as make the ones you do have more meaningfull since they are used repeatedly on your lot.

Hope that helps!

[SpartanBadger 4]

It seems that basically dependencies are a necessary evil. I personally do not like them as they create more of a hassle for me, but I just deal with it because I love custom content. My major complaint is when I have to get a dependency and I can't find it...P.I.T.A. especially so when the links to the dependencies are broken...that's just my opinion though.

Voar Tok, are there any Canadian copywright laws that apply here? (Probably a stupid question, but as an American, I'm not familiar with Canadian copywright law)

[Shingure 56]

I will say that Dependencies are needed to be placed in large general groups. Do you know the JRJ Street Side Mod...7 depencies. And 2 of the depenencies have their own dependencies. We need to cut down on them in order to save our sanity...Or in other words harddrive space.

[BarbyW 40]

The links to the dependencies on the STEX were broken as the redirect notices were deleted by STEX staff.

[SimRabbit 48]

Why where they deleted by ST staff? I recently download a park with a few dependencys and one of them was in the proccess of deletion.

In other hand

Haha dependencies that have their own dependencies, now that's hilarious!!!

Wou as a great programmer should come up with a software (like the SC4D Lex Downloader) that will work as follows:

Just registered at SC4D and the first thing Im supposed to download is the LEX Manager. After it, I want to download some parks that have a few dependencies, so when I click Download the LEX Manager will look up dependencies and will re pack the park files with dependencies. You extract them and these dependencys are automatically merged into Simcity 4 DAT files to save space. Now I download a building that has a few dependencies and one of them I already I have so the Lex Manager will scan my Plug In folder and will repackage the building along with dependencys and will exclude the deps i already have. The LEX Manager after downloading, will automatically merged into dats and place into folders. If the author updates the building the Lex Manager will tell me, and if a prop pack is merged it will tell aswell.

I'm using the BSC LEX as example and can be applied to the STEX as well.

[Andreas Roth 605]

Originally posted by: SimRabbit Why where they deleted by ST staff? quote>

 

Because it's the "STEX policy". Locked files are apparently considered as "unnecessary clutter", and therefore deleted by the admins.

[Henry Midfield 3]

Personally I don't mind them, as I think they have produced some wonderful BATs. What I do mind, however, is having to deal with broken links, and updated dependencies. What I especially hate is having to travel to a different site, just because the original dependency in the STEX has been locked, yet the new one is not in STEX, but somewhere else. No offense, but this makes me wonder why did someone upload the original version in STEX in the first place, but not the updated version...

[Plokoon111 0]

Dependences are annoying, sometimes I click the depend. and the link is broken, or its locked! Thats stupid! I wish there would be 1 whole download with all the tile sets and depends that we would need.

[patfirefghtr 159]

to answer last 2 post... Henry and PLokoon, the files where either outdated and
there should be a redirect to get the new version or if its totaly gone its because
a STeX Mod deleted the file as it was no longer here or even linked to a new site... 

But i do know when some stuff was pulled that it was shown a redirect to the new site... 
where that member has moved to...  the member then feels its in the best intrest to
maintain their works in one spot and have the link in the old file to the new file...

[castironpigeon 1]

Wow, I'm really surprised that this thread has stayed alive so long (if only barely). I've made my peace with dependencies, but I'm still not happy with the way they're organized by default, which is to say that they're not. I'll have to try that LEX downloader mentioned by SimRabbit, it might be just the thing to solve that problem.

The trouble is that you can install all the mods you want, but the minute you need to get rid of something or troubleshoot why a mod isn't showing up correctly, you're screwed unless you know what every file in your collection does. The number of files can be in the hundreds or thousands. I don't understand the resistance put up by veteran modders to making some sort of mod browser for newbies to help sort all the custom content installed on someone's computer or at the very least standardizing the way mods are named to make them easier to keep track of. I realize that the end user can do the same thing, but it's much easier for the mod maker to name his files appropriately than it is for the end user to figure out what the two dozen files just regurgitated by a zipped folder are for.

[moganite 4]

Well there should be a readme with those files detailing instructions and usage. Also if the modder is worth their salt they will be using descriptive file names like QE2000m.dat rather than mod1.dat, mod2.dat .

There is also a certian level of competence that is assumed like you know how to rename, create and delete folders.

That idea of a cc browser might be worthwhile as at the moment its up to the end user to keep track of their own files.

[Flumes 3]

The reason I dislike dependencies, and am often turned away from a good lot, mod, or whatever is the simple time it takes.... Not downloading, but just finding them. It helps greatly if the lot creator posts links. But with serveral groups having left simtropolis, and with many basic dependcies now removed I just don't have the time to search for them on other sites. Especially when I want to play... Additionally, sometimes the dependincies have dependincies of their own, and the chain drags on... I wonder how many different ways I spelled dependency typing this!?!?!