The Dependency Debate

[VeritaScientia 150]

I've been on this site for a while, simply to get the downloads, I got very sick of seeing just low-level CS$$ when my CO$$$ demand should have been putting skyscrapers everywhere in my city.

My question is: can the STEX be reorganized to put all the dependency files into their own section and/or organizing all the different groups into their own sections (HKABT, Pegasus, SimGoober, etc) that way when I search for "BSC Texture Pack" I don't get every single file on the site that uses the texture files.

[jabl0me 2]

I don't mind all the dependencies, the only thing I absolutely hate is having to run an installer first to see if I can even locate all the dependencies listed in the first place. IMO the readme should NEVER be nested inside of the installer. I want to see if I already have, or what I may need BEFORE I decide on actually installing new items.

[Andreas Roth 607]

Usually, a list of dependencies can be found in the STEX description already, so while you're downloading the lot, you can get the dependencies during the same download task. I think this is even more convenient that waiting for the download, unzipping the readme file and manually open it afterwards.

[Muko 0]

hi

The list of dependensies thies days are like a mile long ,and if you are started from cracth with a install ,and have found alot of costom content you would like in the city ,then this might be thay way to du it :

I thik it would be alot eaysier to mearge all the dependensies in one huge file ,ore in 3 big ones "Textures" "Props"and "Model" ,and get them updatede with new stuff as it comes out .that would remove alot of comfusion fore new commers, I dont know if this is posibule at all ,but it would be nice ,then when the big work is done , its gona be easy to just update the files.

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: Muko

hi

The list of dependensies thies days are like a mile long ,and if you are started from cracth with a install ,and have found alot of costom content you would like in the city ,then this might be thay way to du it :

I thik it would be alot eaysier to mearge all the dependensies in one huge file ,ore in 3 big ones "Textures" "Props"and "Model" ,and get them updatede with new stuff as it comes out .that would remove alot of comfusion fore new commers, I dont know if this is posibule at all ...

quote>

Its not possible, there are far too many to fit in consolidated files like that.

What I'd suggest you do is start by finding the lots you want to download, then finding the few dependencies each one needs and building up that way. By doing that you only have to look for and download the dependencies you really need (ie the ones your favourite lots use).

Its a mistake to go and download everything in sight that looks pretty and then find you need a whole lot of dependencies for them. Be strategic in what you download in the first place.

[grbac80 5]

When I started I did a mistake by DLing "everything". Then I found about dependency files. So I went into each DL file to see if it has a dependency and DL the file if had one. It was a long process.

Now I DL the dependencies right after I DL the main file. This way I know that I have it somewhere, it just that I have to find it. I always keep DL zips in a separate folder. Yes, it takes some space but bytes are not that expensive nowdays anymore. The key here is also in how to arrange the plugin folder, the zip one and the game plugin folder.

It's imposible to pack all dependencies because they are updated sometimes and individual. There are MEGA packs though for some dependencies. They make it easier somewhat. Also a great help was SC4Devotion dependency list.

[Thirdrepublic 2]

Even with the SC4Devotion dependency list how many times has the dependency file changed its name or merged with another file so you have to hunt the forums or website trying to find it?

[aristurtle 0]

The thing that bugs me the most about the whole dependencies issue is that it's a solved problem, but we (as a community) never really picked up on the solution.

Anyone here a Linux user? You know what I mean. You need to download a piece of software, let's say, "firefox". It depends on "libgecko", the HTML rendering engine, "GTK+", the GUI widget toolkit, that in turn depends on "Xorg", the graphics backend, et cetera et cetera.

So do you need to go chasing down a dozen packages, then seeing what the dependencies depend on, then download those as well, ad nauseum? Well, in 1997 maybe you did, but nowadays there are "repositories" and "package management systems". You've got a list of "repositories" (web sites with packages, basically) in a config file somewhere, and when you want to download a package, the package manager (APT for Debian-based Linux distributions, YUM for Red Hat-based Linux distributions, and there are a few other oddballs for the few oddball distributions, but they all do basically the same thing) looks through this list of repositories, figures out what your package depends on (and what those packages depend on, etc), figures out which ones you already have installed, and downloads and installs all of the needed ones at the same time, from several different sites at once if necessary. If an old dependency has been rolled into a new one, the old one links to the new one and that's automatically figured out too. The whole thing works really well.

What I'm saying is that this problem has been encountered by other communities before and has already been solved to everyone's benefit. Now, I know it's a little late in SC4's life cycle to implement something like this, which is unfortunate, but really this whole situation could have been avoided, and that's sad.

[Andreas Roth 607]

Your last sentence sums it up pretty well - it's simply too late to set up a package manager system like it exists for Linux etc. If someone would have suggested this five years ago and showed the benefits, the community might have jumped on the bandwagon. And even if such a system would have been established for SC4, I doubt that every BATter and lotmaker would have joined the effort, either because they didn't know that such a system exists, or simply because they wanted to stay as individual as possible, not relying/trusting a system that was maintained by some community members (such a system would need some maintenance from talented people who have a good understanding of the internals of the game).

[miller45103 6]

I personally dont like dependencies because either there is no link to them, or there are SO many.  I feel like they are a waiste of time.  What do other people think?

[SC4BOY 20]

WOW.. no one else have ever mentioned this topic.. have you done a search to see if maybe its been mentioned before?

[Cougar2004 127]

If you want things to look right (and good), its going to take dependencies. I've recently learned many tips and tricks on how to find the ones I need. Sometimes it takes longer than Id like, but i can honestly say that I've been lucky to find every one ive ever looked for..... so far. Google is your friend.

The hardest deal with dependancies is trying to find older ones, especially when the originator links are broken, or they have been rolled into a mega pack and it isnt clearly documented.  This problem happens to me at least once for every sitting that i try to download stuff.

For example, tonight in struggling to find these for a CSX Farm (from the LEX):  

Dependancies :            

                BSC BAT Props MJB Vol05.dat - Found

                BSC BAT Props SG Vol06.dat - Found

                BSC SG FloraPack Vol03.dat - Found

                BSC_SG_FloraPack_Vol1.dat - Found

                PorkieProps_Vol02.dat - Found

                SG_FarmFields.Dat - Found

                SG_IrrigationCanals.dat - Found at https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=891

                SG_PondPack_Vol01.dat - Found covered by SG_INSTALL_MEGAProps01

                SG_SugarFarms.dat

I'm thinking that the last 3, which i haven't found, may have been rolled into something like SG_INSTALL_MEGAProps01.zip but i dont see any forum posts or other pages able to verifty that.

[CaptCity 4,695]

The ‘Dependency Debate’ has popped up every now and then. Understanding that they’re not for everyone, the general consensus has been that if you don’t like dependencies then don’t use items that need them. If you don’t mind dependencies, then more material will be open for your use.

 

Hopefully any discussion involving opinions of the use of dependencies will remain that – a discussion.

 

[TitanSteel 0]

Can't people upload an additional pack that includes the relevant dependancies? The current situation is such an inefficient waste of time... not what I'd expect from people that play this game

[3dpuzzlemaster 20]

What I think of dependencies is in the quotes  in my signature . I personally think it is better to download all the dependencies: meaning that when you see a dependency that looks important or that you like, download it, it can make things a lot easier. Of course everything has the potential to be a dependency.

To Cougar2004: The SG Canals should be in the STEX and LEX, just search Simgoober and it should show up. As for those sugar farms I think I saw them in the rural section(not sure which) of the LEX, the thing is with the LEX, you have to look at the title more than the picture if you are looking for something in particular.

[bigthing 35]

Remember, the MORE dependencies you have, the less you NEED to have.

I say this because now when i download something i already have most of the dependencies needed

[RandyDaytona 0]

DO you need dependencies to get some maps to work, because i'm having a hll of a time with that??

[CaptCity 4,695]

Originally posted by: RandyDaytona

DO you need dependencies to get some maps to work, because i'm having a hll of a time with that??quote>

Not unless you need a height mod to adjust terrain height. You might want to present your specific issue in the Mapping Community Board. Just a thought...

[Cougar2004 127]

Originally posted by: 3dpuzzlemaster

To Cougar2004: The SG Canals should be in the STEX and LEX, just search Simgoober and it should show up. As for those sugar farms I think I saw them in the rural section(not sure which) of the LEX, the thing is with the LEX, you have to look at the title more than the picture if you are looking for something in particular.

quote>

Took your advice and found a couple more were rolled into other new packs.... but this last one eludes me: SG_SugarFarms.dat

I guess ill try to play without it.

I'll tell you all the biggest annoyance ive had as of today.... "Finding Dependancies, installing them as instructed, which actually put back in old duplicate files that had previously been removed by cleanitol half a year ago!"  Basically, it seems like a never ending round.  Perhaps my best choice is to just redownload run cleanitol on them and install all the major packs after every download session where older files (dependancies) are obtained.  

I think a good solution for this is simple.  A program that builds on cleanitol by remembering what you previously cleaned, and every time you run the program, it looks to see if older files got put back in,  and if so, removes them again.  I dont think that sounds too hard to write.  But the catch is if someone uninstalls a megapack in favor of a few usually considered obsolete files.  Oh well.  Its just an idea.  

[SC4BOY 20]

I believe "SG" (this is SimGoober btw) has rolled most of his old dependencies into megapaks..

[north country dude 202]

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

WOW.. no one else have ever mentioned this topic.. have you done a search to see if maybe its been mentioned before? quote>

This statement doesn't make sense.

This topic was created on November 29, 2006 (previous drafts of this article were posted earlier). That is almost three years ago. It was certainly an issue prior to it being posted and I thought I would try to explain it (the term "dependency" and it's use) in a more comprehensive and easy to understand format.

The topic and article was and is refered to by many who use dependent files in their submissions to the public. The main article is also located in the Omnibus as an informational aid to newcomers. Some have even used this link in their signatures.

It has been shown that this topic has been mentioned before and often enough to attract attention after almost 3 years. As for doing a search to see if the terms "dependencies, or, dependent files" had been mentioned before, that is how I did the research for this article.

Originally posted by: miller45103

I personally dont like dependencies because either there is no link to them, or there are SO many.  I feel like they are a waiste of time.  What do other people think?

quote>

If you take the time to read the previous 5 pages, you will know exactly what other people think about the use of dependencies. Stop trolling.

Whether you like them or not is irrelevant. They exist and many will continue to use them irregardless of the opinions of the few who do not "prefer" their use.

It should be understood by everyone that:

-The use of dependencies is confusing and problematic to newcomers and the inexperienced, but as a user becomes more experienced, dependencies become less and less of a problem, even for dial-up users like me.

-People have been complaining about dependencies for 6 years now, have they gone away? has their use declined? No, in fact the number of prop and texture packs and related files has grown in that time. Why? because the use of dependent files is integral to to the exchange of custom content for Sim City 4. There is no getting around that fact.

-Older custom content will have broken links to it's dependent files,...oh well, they were probably combined into another pack. Looks like the user will have to do a little searching on his or her own,...waa! it's too much work!...then, move on to some other content that suits you more and stop wasting your time complaining about it.

-Newer content should have a list of dependent files and where to get them,...if it doesn't then that is an issue worth complaining about,...to the person who submitted the file.

-You can't have it all. There is a lot of custom content for Sim City 4 available today. For newcomers this would seem to be an insurmountable amount. But having it all isn't necessary. Use discretion and download only what you will use. Be patient and eventually you will have enough custom content accrued to build any type of city or region you want.

That was the main point of the article that opened this topic. To summarize:

1) Dependencies exist and personal opinions and preferences about them will not make them go away. Get used to it.

2) Use of dependencies is a matter of personal preference and not a valid reason to bad mouth a person who uses them.

3) What you download from a free site is your responsibility.

4) If you choose to not download anything that has dependent files, understand that there is a very large amount of high quality content that uses dependencies that you are missing out on, but again, that is your preference.

5) There really is no debate about dependencies. What you do with them is entirely up to you.

---

Moderator Note:

There are only two possible views, to this discussion and no one will change their view.

"I don't like dependencies, there are too many, and I can't find them"

And:

"If you don't like dependencies, don't use lots that require them".

The debate goes on without end, both here and at other SC sites.  It has been going on for as long as custom content has existed.   Therefore the staff of Simtropolis have decided to leave North Country Dude with the last post, thank you all for your discussion, and let the subject rest.

Further debate on dependencies,  and this thread,  is now closed.