The Dependency Debate

[Cleaner475 150]

Patriots - Yeah I agree - I reckon eventually someone will find a answer to the dependcy issue

[BarbyW 40]

There is an answer. Don't download custom lots that use them or only ever use Maxis props.

[Cleaner475 150]

but that would suck - hardly any custom content doesn't have depedencies

[Zwabberaar 18]

Originally posted by: cleaner475 but that would suck - hardly any custom content doesn't have depedenciesquote>

 

The BLAM team made dependency free content.

[Cleaner475 150]

yeah - one or two do have dependcys but BLaM are brilliant as are BSC - I suppose it depends what you want - BLaM seem to have more awesome buildings that look cooler and have less dependencys but BSC have more needed buildings but more dependcys - I liek both so..........

[Bluebeard 0]

Dang talk about spoiled brats.

      Barby is correct on solving your problem with dependencies.So you gotta download some xtra stuff to get the lot to look and function right but the end result is a awesome looking lot.

      These lots are not costing you a dime and so you have no bloody right to complain.So don't download and go try making your own lots if you think it's so easy.

[Zwabberaar 18]

Originally posted by: cleaner475 yeah - one or two do have dependcys but BLaM are brilliant as are BSC - I suppose it depends what you want - BLaM seem to have more awesome buildings that look cooler and have less dependencys but BSC have more needed buildings but more dependcys - I liek both so..........

quote>

 

I think if you want to eat the cake you will have to cut it. I am pretty new to all this stuff and I just get all the dependency pack which are used most. With this packer tool I made them into one large dat file and use that when I play. I hardly ever run into brown boxes now.

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: Zwabberaar

Originally posted by: cleaner475 but that would suck - hardly any custom content doesn't have depedenciesquote>

 

The BLAM team made dependency free content.quote>

Unfortunately doing that means you have to bat every item your lot uses, each time you make a lot. This tends to limit what is put on the lot according to the amount of time the creator is prepared to put into batting new props for each lot.

However there is a vast supply of ready made props and BATs, just waiting to be re-used. Once a creator makes a few nice props its not long before they want to use again some of the ones they've previously made. As soon as you do that - dependencies!

Then there's people like me who don't BAT at all and just use what others have previously made. 100% Recycling.

Like I said earlier, sometimes you have to make choices. Those choices have consequences, but the responsibility for your choice is yours alone.  If you just have to have that nice new lot and it has dependencies, then you make the choice to download the lot and download its dependencies as well. You know this before you download. Otherwise you simply choose not to download the lot and you don't have to download the dependencies. The choice is up to you.

[castironpigeon 1]

Deadwoods mentioned some great tools for managing dependencies and it's great to see the major custom content creators making stuff like that. The real trouble seems to be deeper than that though. What's the critical mass of a plugins folder before it's just no longer manageable? I'm downloading my plugins again now and I'm taking care to organize them very carefully. I've gotten a dozen plugins in a week total. Now I'm also trying to edit some of my own lots with the Maxis editing tool and I run into more organizational trouble. Everyone labels props differently!

I'm not trying to complain here. The fact is that EA has abandoned the traditional Simcity because it's too complicated for newbies to get into. Maybe 1 in 10 will stick to it, but the others get driven away. I don't think they get driven away by sheer numbers of dependencies/files/props/whatever, but rather by the complete lack of organization inherent in the plugin system. I bring this up because I don't want the old Simcity to go away and the only way to bring big numbers into the game is to create a tool that acts as an interface between the game and the spaghetti of files that is the default plugins folder. No more obscure file names. No more long lists of files that are impossible to troubleshoot. We need to be able to point all newbies to one program and say, "Here, get this and it'll be like Windows Explorer for your plugins folder. It'll show you every object in game, every link between objects, the way it appears in game and on the in game menu, and every number associated with the object. And it'll let you alter everything in the program directly so you never have to see a file." Basically, merge SC4Tool with the lot editor and add a wrapper that lets you browse the entire plugins folder more easily. I'd be happy leaving everything as is and waiting for the next Simcity to fix the problem, but it's pretty clear that EA is steering away from traditional Simcity and without a program like this to increase SC4's popularity, we're probably going to lose much of the new population and all of the future population to SCS and future dumbed down Simcities.

[BarbyW 40]

Keep a look out at SC4Devotion for wouanagaine's magic tool. RL has brought development to a temporary halt but he will be back and finish it.

[north country dude 202]

Originally posted by: Shingure As a person who just downloaded a bunch of dependencies for one lot. ( The number of depencies for this lot is 32 ) I must say that the article I read on the omnibus about this is very one sided. You dont understand how much space it takes up. And I was up for a extra 2 hours last night getting all these dependencies for a lot I really needed. I understand that the dependencies come with that lot. quote>

ACCCKKK!! THBBBBBTT!! The article is not one-sided!! It explains what dependencies are. It explains how and why they exist. It gives suggestions on how to handle them. But it also states that how you deal with them is YOUR CHOICE.

This article has no side to take. It's purpose is to INFORM. The word "Debate" in the title is just a hook to get you to read it. After reading it, an averagely intelligent person should come to the conclusion that there really isn't a debate!

But how come they cant include them in very large packs. I mean seriously. On the LEX there is about 100 differenct dependency packs. How come they cant condense them into a more modular means. Because this is killing my hard drive and my plugins folder is made of of 2GB custom content with 4GB of Dependencies.

quote>

Because prop pack dependencies are created by different authors, that's why they can't be combined. Also, combining them would create a massively large file. What if you only wanted some of the props and textures in that gigantic file, but not all of them, why make you download this 4gb file just because you only wanted maybe 5mb of it??

The current system is already modular! Combining them all into one file would not be modular, but in fact, less modular.

The amount of custom content and associated dependents on YOUR hard drive  is YOUR responsibility, not the custom content maker's. They have no idea what's on your hard drive.

New Information:

Guess what? Dependencies are not just an SimCity 4 issue! They are used in many other games where the user's upload custom content.

As an example, I have recently begun fooling around with Trainz Railroad Simulator 2006. The Trainz franchise has been around since 2001. The custom layouts and object content is rife with dependencies. They too have problems with missing dependencies, BUT, rather than complain about the fact that dependents exists, they work on ways to help each other find them.

Go here and search for the term "dependents" or "dependencies":

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/index.php

Then take a look here( a tool for finding and repairing custom content):

http://tarl.trainz.ws/

Also, get this!! Some custom content provided by the more skilled users ain't free in the Trainz franchise. Some of the higher quality models and layouts are provided for a fee!! That's right, it's payware!

Imagine if the BSC or HKBT or BLaM teams began charging for their custom content! Keep that in mind when you decide to download something from the STEX or SC4Devotion's LEX.

Another franchise known for custom content and dependencies is Civilization:

Look at this: http://www.apolyton.net/

Or this: http://www.civfanatics.com/

Dependencies are everywhere! Get used to it! They ain't going away, no matter how much you complain or flame the custom content makers.

Anyone who does flame or give a negative revue to a custom content provider based solely on the amount of dependents he or she decides to use in their freeware is showing what a horses behind they truly are.

[Insane Child of Bodom 1]

This picture sums up my position....

BURN f'ing dependencies,,,

I mean this is a joke...

[SimRabbit 48]

*****???

these boxes make me go crazy!!!! too many!!!

[Godzillaman 21]

Originally posted by: Insane Child of Bodom This picture sums up my position....

BURN f'ing dependencies,,,

I mean this is a joke...quote>

Um...how'd that come to happen? Looks like a city with towers and midrises

I say just go through all the dependancies at sc4d and download the main ones that you need and your done...I don't know about that picture though

[deadwoods 542]

Ha, love it, great joke, best thing I've seen all day!

[JSNK000 1]

My problem with dependencies isn't when a BAT has 2 or 3..it's when it has 17. It's also when you need prop pack 39..but not if you have pack 22 unless you upgraded to pack 62 then you need 33 unless you got that pack on that one site then you only need packs 21,44 and 88. Enough already. Packs being moved,merged,deleted....it's too much.

And now you have crap spread out over 3 or 4 sites....prop packs get locked at one site...moved to another....you waste an hour hunting down a stupid pack just so you can get some custom tree or some other nonsense.

A person uploads a work of art and completely kills all joy by asking you to hunt down 9 prop packs.

Some compromises

-release 2 lots in each zip....one as intended with any and all props and a vanilla one so the person can at least get it in game w/o blank spots or brown boxes...IF that person wants to at a later date hunt down packs or build their own lot they can but don't shoot somebody in the foot before they even get started. It would take the creator 2 minutes to make an alternative lot. OR....make one lot with custom props and one with only MAXIS props.

-provide UP_TO_DATE LINKS for ALL Prop packs/dependencies and keep it up to date. I hate clicking inks and finding 'this file has been locked' ove and over and over because the person moved their packs and didn't provide new links. Not all of us read the forums or are 'in the know' as to the latest in an douts of what each BAT team is doing or where their crap is located.

-use some discretion. When you see a single BAT you are lotting has more than say 4 separate dependencies...take a step back and maybe scale it down. Do you really need that particular bench? I mean...c'mon. Wouldn't the MAXIS mailbox work just as well? Does there have to be 8 different tree types? Think about your customers. Yeah,these are free and a labor of love but...at the same time you want your hard work to end up in as many hands as possible otherwise why bother? You don't want to go hogwild and turn your potential downloaders off all because they will need to take an entire afternoon finding all of these dependencies when they should be in game enjoying your hard work.

- be specific. Some BATers are so sloppy or vague and I am not sure exactly what I'm supposed to be needing. I end up on a wild goose chase looking for some piece of the puzzle and it ends up not being worth it.

-convergence and organization. TEAM SIM makes prop pack A.....then somebody on the team releases a new set of trucks...ok..so update to pack B and REMOVE pack A so B has the latest props. Keep your latest pack front and center and easy to find. When a pack gets big and can't cram any more stuff into it...freeze it and go on to pack A2 or whatever. Then,when somebody on the team releases a new bat they can say....you need pack A or you need pack B...instead of....you need packs A,B,2,4,9,23 and that tree pack that Fred made at simworld.net.

Instead you have TEAM SIM...Bob's pack A...TEAM SIM....Joe's pack 2....TEAM SIM....Ralphs pack 1-B....TEAM SIM....Tim's pack 2.25 version 2.....it's absurd and confusing.

[deadwoods 542]

JSNK000, you're awfully demanding for someone who gets this stuff for free. If you want a lot with no dependencies, there's nothing to stop you from downloading it, opening it in the LotEditor and removing all dependencies.

Now, you assume that custom content developers do it for the masses. Guess what, many do it just for themselves and like to share with others. If they think the lot looks better with a grand old Oak Tree rather than MedDeciduous2 like every other lot, that's their call. My first BAT's were a set of gas stations. I had to develop a lot of props and textures 'cos the Maxis ones were almost non-existent and if I did use them it would look just like the Maxis petrol station (yuk!).

Some teams do make a serious effort to manage the prop packs. The reason the BSC moved their stuff to SC4D was 1) the whingeing like your post on dependencies, and 2) greater control over the uploads. Unfortunately, managing SC4 content is not paying the bills for the custom content developers, so managing hundreds of readme files when a series of prop packs are rolled up into a larger one is not on the priority list. Have a look at SimGoober, probably the greatest developer of quality content in the SC4 community; he has over 300 lots/BATs published. Constantly updating files is just not possible.

So, as per Barby/Sam's advice, download or don't, it's up to you, but please don't demand stuff from people who are doing this in their own time for zero dollars.

[Palpatine001 57]

I thought this debate had some what died a while ago, looks like I am wrong - that aside;

Being a veteran lot maker (and a newbie BATer) I have create various lots over the years and released 30 odd of them into in the STEX and SCEX and know very well about dependencies.

Dependencies are a vital life line for a lotter like myself who will use custom and Maxis material, "recycle" it, Modd it then release it back in the community for you to enjoy. (Hey my Money Park is a lot and still seems to go well at 4000 downloads)

Now in saying that being a veteran lotter I do take the responsibility in trying to keep the dependency list as low as possible. However it does doesn't help when the props I used that were once available at one central site are not scattered around other sites and locked at the central site - not helpful.

As for keeping dependency files down I know BLaM work and update the BLaM Essentials Vol 1 and 2 files on a semi regular basis, that is all BLaMers like myself will merge our various prop packs into these 2 files for you benefit. So in saying that my Prop Pack will be soon merged into the BLaM pack and be avaliable via the STEX.

Now that I am moving into the world of BATing the above will be even more critical - I have 2 BATs completed but not released yet and another three under way.

NCD is right, this problem is not confined to ST and BarbyW is right, don't like it don't download it - your loss not mine.

[BarbyW 40]

JSNK000: if the work is, to use your words, " crap " why are you even bothering about it?

[Andreas Roth 607]

Originally posted by: JSNK000

It would take the creator 2 minutes to make an alternative lot. quote>

If it only takes two minutes, why don't you do it yourself? It's probably faster than hunting down all dependencies...

[Silur 3,302]

My great mistake is - I moved off simple objects like jestarr props vol. 01 and others.....

Now I have only MEGAs ....... with many props ... 

No problems for me - THANKS to all BATer's - but I think about only one - may be some simple Props like jastarr vol.01 or vol.02  ... etc... 

And my respect for Andreas - Your WORK, Objects and Props are BIG MODELS for everyone !!!

Like German Cars - simple, effective and fine for life !!!

[DarkEldar 6]

Originally posted by: deadwoods : you're awfully demanding for someone who gets this stuff for freequote>

 

Thats quite right why complain about something thats free, if you don't like it don't get it.I think dependencies make a better lot than the old maxis props.

[Filasimo 1]

My god spoiled brats is right. Here's an example I was downloading some stuff I want for my upcoming city i will be building and so i ran that nifty little program that is the BSC cleanitol. for you people out there who do not know and is just lazy to spend the afternoon downloading some stuff its a program that helps you track down missing dependencies. well i ran the cleanitol master list and it spent about 2-3 mins scanning my plugin folders and it found that i was missing 11 dependencies. it then gave me the ones i was missing and links to them. i then followed all the links and it took me to where they are and so i downloaded all 11. after installing them i ran the cleanitol scan with the master list and it said now im up to date with all dependencies....how long it took? 30 mins max.....now was it really that hard? no i had a smoke listened to some music and before you know it i was done and updated with everything. knowing that the cleanitol makes life much more easier i dont see it a problem downloading so many dependencies bc theres a program to help you look for it....so for all you people crying about it and being spoiled take atleast 1 hour of your life and do what you gotta do to enjoy the custom content we make for you guys. only complaining and whining about how theres so many dependencies will only show how ignorant you are and lazy. you want to complain heres an easy analogy. you have a major paper to write you need all the sources and citations to make your paper. you have to look for all of them throughout the web hmm thats strange thats the same thing as bats having dependencies...the bat is your paper and the dependencies are the sources and citations that make up the paper. THINK ABOUT IT!

[Silur 3,302]

I haven't any problems with Props, but my mind is: you may can work with MEGA Packs or you may can work with simple Props named .... vol. 01 and ... vol 2 ....

But today you can't work with simple PROPS - this is very sad for me ...

No more...

[Bluebeard 0]

Filasimo you have hit the nail on the head.Thanx

[Glenni 1,444]

Sometimes if i'm too lazy to hunt down dependencies i don't have, i just relot the lot to my tastes,  doesn't take you that long, you know...

[Jasoncw 11,840]

This argument doesn't have much of a point.  Pretty much all of the people who used dependencies excessively have greyed out avatars, or are no longer active in the community.  It's not something Simtropolis needs to think about anymore.

[Silur 3,302]

My respect for Glenni and Onlyplace 4 and BLaM!!!

Great works - Great things and No problems ...

[deeejayeee 0]

That's easy... cut off supply of Canadian oil to United States !

[Glenni 1,444]

Well that was random...