Building Log: World Trade Center (Pre-9/11)

[DarkMatter 21]

With this upcomming lot editor, it might be best to create a landmark with just one tower, and leave the creation of the plaza to the users. Will make your job easier, and will let people have control over how the lot looks. Not to mention the fact that we won't have to worry about creating the largest lot ever in the game (twin towers and a plaza...I'm thinking something like a 24x24 lot or around there for all three).

The model looks great, too. I hope we can figure out how to keep the wires holding the antenna up in the final 3DM. I don't know exactly how to go about it...maybe just a vertical plane, and a separate texture just for that plane that has the wires on it?

[joerg 281]

That looks awsome i cant wait to give newyork its towers back thank you rubik.

 

But one question why did that take so long to do the render? Do you need a new computer or am i missing somehtign.

[JAMiUs 9]

pretty god damn cool!

you've outdone yourself! are you doing 2 or just the one?

 

[ApathyNinja 17]

Very nice! Do you mind if I point out a couple detail things?

First off, there are sorta taller windows that I think are skylobbies as seen here.

I'd also pay attention to how the windows cap at the top. Otherwise, you're doing an awesome job.

[JAMiUs 9]

would you be able to put animation on it? like other landmarks with people on there? cause people on the top of the building would be SO COOL!

[DarkMatter 21]

Adding people to the top of the building and around plazas is separate from the building itself. The lot configuration defines what people props are used and where they are placed (this lot editor tool from Maxis will allow you to configure these things, ilives reader lets us do it now).

 

Rubik, I never noticed your render times, but 2.5 hours to render a building like this is beyond extreme. I can render the WFC building in about 2-3 seconds with reflections. (Granted, I have a top of the line computer, but still, I figure my oldest computer here, a dual P2 400, can render the thing in less than 5 minutes). I would guess that, if modeled optimally, my system could render your WTC building in a few minutes if it had say 500,000 polygons, maybe 10 minutes if it had a million polygons. If your pushing 2.5 hours on the render time, I think you have too much detail and polygon resolution. For the needs of SC4, that much detail might be overkill just a bit.

[rubik3 118]

"Rubik, I never noticed your render times, but 2.5 hours to render a building like this is beyond extreme."

 

Not necessarily.  I've had buildings with less polygons take more time than that.  My model of the north tower only has 120,000 polygons, fairly small for a building of this size.  I have a decent computer (P4 2.8, GeForce4 MX 420, 512 Ram) but one of the factors in my rendering times is the fact i'm using Viz3.  It doesn't have nearly the optimizations that 4 or 5 has.  Also I am using VRay to acheive the higher detail needed.  The 4 pass anti-aliasing filter is whats really taking a lot of the time.  But unless you want a jagged edge on your buildings it's a necessary evil.  I could probably get away with not using raytracing for the windows but it would make them look a lot less realistic.  I think if you could get an answer out of Maxis their rendering times would probably be in the same range.

 

"would you be able to put animation on it? like other landmarks with people on there? cause people on the top of the building would be SO COOL!"

 

That would be sweet to see people at the observation tower.  Thats one thing that disappointed me with Maxis buildings like the walkup tower.  It just looks so inactive without people playing tennis on top.

 

"I hope we can figure out how to keep the wires holding the antenna up in the final 3DM."

 

As I see it there are two options.  One is to have a seperate texture for the wires.  However I'm not looking forward to the extra 20 renderings .  The other way I see doing it is just to add a 2 faced triangle at the top of the antenna where the wires exceed the building.  If done right you shouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two but we'll see.

[DuskTrooper 316]

Nice!!!!  You know what would be cool?  A golden version of the WTC towers! 

 

As for some minor details, the pointed arches should be larger and taller,  There are some non-windowed sections at the 1/3d and 2/3d points.

Still cool though!  How did you do the wires?  If you can animate it, put a US Flag on it.

[mxz440fan 0]

since the WTC were mostly a US/NY loss (i'm not trying to say no one else felt the loss), i think you should put an American flag on top with a NY state flag under it.

it would be very symbolic and even if was wasn't 100% real I would enjoy it more (i'm not trying to be ungrateful, but i think it would be a nice touch)

 

if flags are too hard maybe have them spraypainted on the roof?

[DarkMatter 21]

I use Brazil as my renderer, with AA set to min 1x1 and max 4x4. I'm kind of surprised, VRay tends to be faster than Brazil when AA is turned on. Try turning off all reflections temporarily and see how fast it renders. If it renders in a few minutes, then you have far more reflections than is needed for the kind of detail were going to see in SC4.

 

If you don't mind, I'd like to give the thing a whirl in Brazil, see how long it takes. Shouldn't take so long, and with some tweaking you can keep the reflections without renders taking so long. One thing Brazil is very good at is reflections. As long as you use the Brazil materials, reflections are FAST. I rendered a scene a while back that had about 30 different clear plastic tubes (along with some other complex objects), all with reflections and refractions. There must have been nearly a million polygons in the scene, and it rendered in 1 hour at 800x600.

[rubik3 118]

I figured out my problem.  Originally I was using a lighting technique where you use about 50 omni light in a hemisphere to imitate global illumination.  I guess I forgot to turn them off when I started using VRay.  This is what was causing the inflated rendering times.

[DarkMatter 21]

LOL Thats hilarious man! Pseudo-gi, I havn't used that for over a year now.  Glad you figured it out though. What are your render times now? Decent?

[rubik3 118]

With VRay's GI set to medium and AA set to 4 i'm at right about an hour now.  If I were to take AA and GI off it would be more like 20 minutes.  Needless to say its a lot better than before

[Yellowlab 11]

Wow! Looks impressive, Rubik.

A few details to point out:

==Each WTC tower had two bands of skylobbies circling it. These are those darker bands you see circling it.
==The roof had an observation deck, circled in blue. Also more detail on the roof would be nice but overall looks simply incredible.

I would actually like it to be 3 seperate landmarks. Then I could configure the plaza in relation to the towers in any form I chose.

[rubik3 118]

"==Each WTC tower had two bands of skylobbies circling it.  These are those darker bands you see circling it."

 

Ya for some reason I had the bands the same material as the rest of the structure.  They should be slightly darker.  I will post an updated version in the next day or two.

 

"==The roof had an observation deck, circled in blue.  Also more detail on the roof would be nice but overall looks simply incredible."

 

I decided to work from the middle out on this building.  I am leaving the detail work (extra antennas on the north tower, observation deck on the south tower, as well as more detail on the entrance at the bottom) for last as the miniscule work is always the toughest for me.

 

Attn: Raphael:  Let me know when you get the subway part figured out for the grand central landmark.  I would like to add the underground transportation for the WTC and I'm wondering if there are any extra graphics needed for the underground view..

[DarkMatter 21]

I wonder if the soft shadows produced by GI will look right in the game. SC4's shadows are all sharp and raytraced like. Anti-aliasing doesn't increase render times that much, particularly in VRay, but GI increases it a lot. Its your choice, but I would turn off GI and just use ambient light settings and raytraced shadows to achieve the best blend with other game buildings. Would also reduce your render times a lot...to more reasonable times when you consider rendering 20 images of this thing.

[rubik3 118]

After looking at some of their images it looks like they use either a psuedo GI or use a software GI such as VRay, Brazil, of Viz4's built in radiosity.  If you take a look at the Seoul Stadium landmark you can see that the shadows on the roof are much like the ones in my WTC model.  Regular raytracing shadows can't fade realistically like the shadows in the game.  Also ambient light won't produce as much detail as shown in the shadows.  If you look at the buildings in game the sides (where there is no light) has quite a bit of detail.  You couldn't replicate this with just a sun and ambient light.  At least I don't think you could (without using the omni hemisphere that takes more time).

[DarkMatter 21]

Hmm...I've seen just the opposite. It looks like most of the building models that came with the game (not plugins like Seoul) have raytraced shadows (sharp-edged shadows). I don't see anything remniscent of GI. The game also generates shadows dynamically, and those are also sharp-edged, not soft-edged. Its up to you, but I think raytraced shadows would offer the best blend with the game. Remember, we used to use all kinds of tricks to simulate GI shadows before we actually had real GI.

[rubik3 118]

Well I just posted at the official BBS asking Dr. Vu for confirmation of our camera numbers.  I also asked him for the lighting setup so we'll see.

[DarkMatter 21]

Ah, sweet! But...Dr. Vu? Haha, great name.

[Kevin 101]

you know... the WTC is NOT being rebuilt the way it was.. why not construct a building based on the new design plan?

[DarkMatter 21]

Eventually someone, probably myself, will. But there isn't much new material on the new WTC.

Also, the whole goal of making it look like the old building is sort of like a tribute. Thats the whole purpose, to remake the old twin towers.

[xcalbier 43]

God rest there souls.

[mxz440fan 0]

thats why i think there should be an american flag somewhere...it would be a nice tribute

[DevsZ13 0]

I've missed out on all of this! Anyway, the subway won't be the only thing you need to take care of, assuming you follow through with the plaza and other buildings. Four World Trade held NYBOT and NYMEX, both very important exchanges. Anyway how to script two stock exchanges along with the rest of the building? Also, Six World Trade held the Federal Customs House, as well as the Port Authority Police Department. Also, as I said in another thread, the observatory could be revenue producing. Also, please reconstruct the http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/World_Trade_Center_Images.html/cid_wtc_jmonahan_01.gbi>plaza as it was. Im sure that flags could be places outside around the towers, or at the entrances to the buildings, etc etc. I hope to see some new renderings soon!

[sc4freak 0]

----------------

On 6/11/2003 10:44:26 PM mxz440fan wrote:

thats why i think there should be an american flag somewhere...it would be a nice tribute

----------------

lol, there is an american flag avaliable for download at the official site! 

[kid_a 1]

This is my first post here, hopefully it will be a helpful one.

Great design of the WTC by the way, I wish I could create something like that. I'm basically a future architecht and wtc enthusiast, so I can help you out with various aspects. If you're looking for pics to help, i have more than plenty lol.

- I don't believe recalling the wires holding up the antenna in the WTC 1 tower at all, just a self supporting spire/antenna.

- There was a helicopter pad on top of the WTC 1 in one of the corners

- Various smaller antenna structures were also on the roof top, with miscellaneous tubes/pipes running along the roof from the antenna.

- If you could design sort of a lighting scheme closest to what the towers looked like, that would be great, the antenna was also lit up in a white/flouresant (sp) light as well, with miscellaneous flashing lights for the planes to see.

I greatly appreciate what you're doing to bring these landmarks back into the game. If anyone needs pics or stuff to develop the new freedom tower, I have them as well.

[huskerman007 26]

This is looking great keep up the good work

[Smurfer2 7]

Looks good. Can't wait to download.

P.S. Please don't put an American flag on the top of either tower. It never happened in real life that I am aware of. You can put all the American flags you want on the ground. I don't care a who lot about what the plaza looks like.

[Screwballl 196]

as we are using gMax and the BAT for rendering, let us know the render times for those, any other program it is useless to know a rendered time since it does not apply to this game
anyways this looks very good, for the sake of the BAT, it may be good to do one building with the plaza, then an open spot for the other builiding to attach to in game