Help with underground rail !

[vetram 221]

Just a quick question pls.....How to build underground rail (NAM's  rail ) under a widening road network and specially for AVE 6 ?   is it even possible ? Thanks

[rsc204 21,805]

The URail system has no support for NWM or RHW networks at this time. The only workarounds I can think of are using a Rail Tunnel in a trench or some sort of Rail to Subway converter (such as these for RRW), both don't work from U-Rail.

Theoretically you could make a TE Lot which did this, but it's a bit involved since it would need custom textures/pathing to really work as intended.

[vetram 221]

-I want to make a crossing between an AVE-6 and RRW ,  is it possible to make a FLUP's for the AVE-6 under the ground rail?  or which way is the better?

 

[Naomi57 2,985]

8 hours ago, vetram said:

I want to make a crossing between an AVE-6 and RRW ,  is it possible to make a FLUP's for the AVE-6 under the ground rail?  or which way is the better?

Here's one solution ... a puzzle piece from the old rail viaducts that crosses RHW-6C.  You then use starter pieces one tile apart to convert from RHW-6C to AVE-6 on either side of the rail viaduct crossing.

The purple lines indicate the placement of RHW-6C starter pieces, and the brown lines indicate the AVE-6 starter pieces.  You then drag the Road tool in, and drag RHW-2 tool out, to form the transition tile in-between.  What I don't know is:

1. How easily these legacy rail viaduct pieces integrate with ERRW Real Railway.
2. Whether it will work the same in NAM 37.

[Naomi57 2,985]

7 hours ago, vetram said:

is it possible to make a FLUP's for the AVE-6

It is possible, but you need LOTS OF ROOM!!!  I think this uses the fewest tiles, but someone please tell me if there's a more compact way to do this.

As before, the brown line indicates the AVE-6 starter piece.  The 7 tile long purple line is the full length of the RHW-6C Type D1 Dual Shift Inside, one of my favourite exotic pieces under the Ramps menu item (press TAB 3 times).  Note that Ramps is a separate menu item to FlexRamps!  

The three FLUPs ramps butt up against the FLUPs under straight Rail pieces.  That's 13 tiles from rail to AVE-6 starter piece.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

If you allow 14 tiles from rail to AVE-6 starter piece, then you can squeeze an alley way of FLUPs under straight RHW2 between the FLUPs ramps and rail. easing vehicle movement on either side of this monster-sized transition.

[Naomi57 2,985]

Here's a more compact option, while keeping the rail at ground level.

Again the brown lines indicate AVE-6 starter pieces, and the purple line for the RHW-6C starter pieces.

The red line for the six plops of 1-Level Flexible Height Transition (3x4 tiles on either side), which transforms into RHW-6C as soon as you plop a RHW-6C starter piece next to it.  Link the two sets of height transitions across the railway using the RHW-2 tool.

[vetram 221]

-Dear Naomi , once again you helped me a lot !   Thanks so much indeed ...

..from your 3 solutions i prefered the first one as it takes me the minimum room ..  and speaking about room , i am afraid that building my city with just NAM's roads it really needs a lot of room!... even for just a simple diamond interchange i count at least 12 tiles from each side !.... This is my first ever city that i build with NAM , and i really dont know if i really need to give so much space , especially with interchanges ....What's your opinion? 

and something else pls ....as long as i am trying to use NAM roads everywhere , i continually discover that there is often problem with curves which also takes much space and many times this is impossible ...for example whenever i have to use a curve for a RHW /  NWM road....as long as i go on building i can realise that i am building a city in full grid everywhere , which is a little unrealistic and not so eye candy ....curves are much more easier to build in Maxis Roads with NAM ofcourse ....whats also your opinion ? ...

I am thinking to open a thread and write down whatever problems / disvoveries  i face , building with NAM all my roads ... 

much love + respect 

Antonis

 

[Naomi57 2,985]

21 hours ago, vetram said:

am afraid that building my city with just NAM's roads it really needs a lot of room!.

Have you seen @Lucario Boricua's post on play-styles yet, Antonis?  

https://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/759142-which-kind-of-SimCity-4-player-are-you/?tab=comments#comment-1729914

Looking through the play-style types, might help you think through what is really important to you in the game?

You might decide that highway eye-candy is more important to you than traffic congestion management.  If that's the case, the NAM can do that for you.  There is an "Ultra" setting for Base Network Capacity in the TSCT that almost completely removes traffic congestion from the game, making highways optional.  Comparing it with "Medium" (NAM default), the "Ultra" setting increases capacity by THREE TIMES or more.

When I first started using the NAM, I used the "High" setting, until I felt comfortable with the new tools and features, then I moved back down to "Medium" setting.  I really enjoy solving traffic congestion problems, so the "Medium" setting is right for me.  The "High" setting is an excellent compromise between "Medium" and "Ultra", so that you can focus more on how your city looks.  

See here is the Base Network Capacity setting in the TSCT:

If you use the "Ultra" setting for Base Network Capacity in the TSCT, then transit planning becomes mostly about vehicle speed, rather than congestion and traffic volume.  Do you know about the save bugs in the TSCT, and the "run as administrator" workaround?

If you use the "Medium" setting for Base Network Capacity, then RHW-6S and RHW-6C are both exceedingly useful for regional highway and main highway ... with the downside that RHW-6S and RHW-6C regional highway curves are huge and tricky.  

21 hours ago, vetram said:

from your 3 solutions i prefered the first one as it takes me the minimum room

Yes, I preferred that rail viaduct solution, too.  

L2 (15m) rail viaducts are extremely tile efficient, because they allow multiple uses for the same tiles:

• Rail viaduct and ground level highway (RHW or MHW).
• Rail viaduct and pedmall, and optional diagonal filler.
• Rail viaduct and ground level vanilla street or road (RD-2), one way road (OWR-2) or avenue (AVE-4).
• Rail viaduct and ground light rail (GLR / tram).

I'm not sure (yet) how many of these features are supported in elevated real-railway (ERRW), and how to integrate ERRW and L2 puzzle piece rail viaducts.

L2 rail viaducts (both ERRW and puzzle piece), have many NAM stations that include both bus and subway functions, too.  This combination of viaduct rail, bus and subway allows very powerful mass transit solutions, so that you need less highway to cope with large populations.  If you decide on "Medium" setting for Base Network Capacity, then this combination of bus, subway and rail becomes really valuable.

21 hours ago, vetram said:

as long as i am trying to use NAM roads everywhere , i continually discover that there is often problem with curves which also takes much space

Using curves to beat the grid is hard, whether highway or road, because SimCity 4 is originally designed around the grid.  Curves are eye-candy, laid on top of the grid.  Here's a post from @CorinaMarie, where she snips an excerpt of NAM documentation to show how curves are built out of grid tiles.

https://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/7152-show-us-your-farm-land/?page=24&tab=comments#comment-1731442

On 03/06/2020 at 4:15 PM, Naomi57 said:

On 27/05/2020 at 4:07 AM, CorinaMarie said:

Magic!

Go to this page of the online NAM documentation, scroll down to the Draggable Wide-Radius Curves and Fractional Angle Functionality section (about 80% of the way down the page), and look for the drag patterns.

The one for the lazy S curve goes like this:

Yay, thank you, Cori!  You are magical.

Because the street curves (eye-candy) are made out of street intersections (grid squares), it means that:

1. Curves often use up extra tiles that can't be used for anything else.
2. Many portions of these curves only work on flat level ground, not compatible with slopes.
3. Sometimes you can get curves when you don't mean to!  

Intersections are always level in SimCity 4, so these portions of curves are level, too.

So beating the grid is tricky, and means you have to get to know and understand the grid better than ever.  Here's a couple recent posts of mine where I beat the grid, using curves, God-mode trees, and Mayor-mode trees.  Click on the screenshots to zoom in.  I use the trees to emphasise the curves.

https://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/7152-show-us-your-farm-land/?page=24&tab=comments#comment-1731779

https://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/35443-show-us-your-interchanges/?page=206&tab=comments#comment-1731692

That screenshot with the cloverleaf interchange also uses various tricks — artistic tricks, terraforming, grass plops, SAM-1, slopes, FLUPs and vanilla tunnels, to blur the grid.  If you look closely, you'll see there are 5 distinct neighbourhoods, with different styles and blending techniques.  Admittedly, the seaside dirt road screenshot was 50 times easier to do than the cloverleaf screenshot!  

Beating the grid in urban settings requires use of diagonal overhanging parks/plazas, and diagonal overhanging lots and plops, mods I don't have yet.  Doing fractionally angled is even harder.  Doing a mixture of grid and beating the grid is best for producing realism.  It's all about creating an illusion.

The highway curves I like the best are the FLEXFly pieces; do you know those ones?  Highway MIS is also very good at curves.  To reduce the appearance of the grid, my NAM favourites are SAM-1, SAM-10, SAM-3, SAM-4, SAM-9, Diagonal Street Helper Pieces, curve patterns at the bottom of this page mentioned by Cori, roundabouts, Width Transitions, Grass FLUPs, Grass Pedmalls, AVE-2, TLA-3, OWR-1, FLEXFly, MHW Highway Extended Transition, MHW Highway OnSlope, Trumpet Interchange, and Partial-Y Interchange.

NOTE:  I think you'll have to change your NAM install to get the Trumpet Interchange, and Partial-Y Interchange, because diagonal interchanges are incompatible with MHO.  There are other mods that re-skin MHW to a black asphalt look.

While many of these NAM features are still on the grid, using a mixture of these features introduces new curved lines, interesting variety, or disguises the grid through blending.

[vetram 221]

Dear Naomi ...

Thanks for the link of the post ! ...now i know better my playing style...-

-Yes i know about Base Network Capacity  and i have set it to High ,  but i think i will agree that Medium is the most realistic...really is it possible to change it as my city grows and better realise where and why i have possible traffic congestions?  also can each city have its own Base Network Capacity?

4 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

The "High" setting is an excellent compromise between "Medium" and "Ultra", so that you can focus more on how your city looks.  

so, that exactly what i had into my mind when i choose High option !

 

4 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

Do you know about the save bugs in the TSCT, and the "run as administrator" workaround?

Really dont know anything about it! 

 

4 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

Here's a post from @CorinaMarie, where she snips an excerpt of NAM documentation to show how curves are built out of grid tiles

Havent read it , but i will and i will comment as for all the rest you mention about curves i must read them carefully also and comment to you also

 

4 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

NOTE:  I think you'll have to change your NAM install to get the Trumpet Interchange, and Partial-Y Interchange, because diagonal interchanges are incompatible with MHO.  There are other mods that re-skin MHW to a black asphalt look.

I think i have the MHW with the black asphalt look , but i dont undestand exactly what you want to mean!...can you pls explain ?

Thanks so much 

much love+respect 

Antonis

 

 

 

[rsc204 21,805]

On 07/06/2020 at 1:16 AM, Naomi57 said:

Here's one solution ... a puzzle piece from the old rail viaducts that crosses RHW-6C.  You then use starter pieces one tile apart to convert from RHW-6C to AVE-6 on either side of the rail viaduct crossing

If that's your preferred solution, do note the E-RRW, which is a modern draggable replacement for the puzzle piece based Viaduct Rail system, will cross all NWM and RHW networks at L1 or L2. Unlike the puzzle pieces, you simply place either an On-Slope or Ramp piece and drag the elevated rail from there, just as you would drawing rail normally.

On 07/06/2020 at 1:16 AM, Naomi57 said:

• How easily these legacy rail viaduct pieces integrate with ERRW Real Railway.

Very easily actually, usually you can just drag L2 E-RRW up to the Viaduct Rail pieces and everything will work seamlessly. If there are no gaps between the elevated rail types, all the pathing should be correct, just use Route Query to confirm trains are able to use it.

This workaround gives you the flexibility of using some pieces the new system doesn't support yet, whilst retaining the benefits of the new draggable method. In time though, Viaduct Rail will be completely redundant as E-RRW is designed to be it's replacement.

On 09/06/2020 at 8:15 AM, vetram said:

..from your 3 solutions i prefered the first one as it takes me the minimum room ..  and speaking about room , i am afraid that building my city with just NAM's roads it really needs a lot of room!... even for just a simple diamond interchange i count at least 12 tiles from each side !.... This is my first ever city that i build with NAM , and i really dont know if i really need to give so much space , especially with interchanges ....What's your opinion? 

Highway interchanges in real life can be quite spacious bits of infrastructure, the RHW system is designed to allow players to build realistic recreations of such. However, as with many mods out there for SC4, in making things more realistic, there are downsides in terms of ease of use. One of the first decisions you'll want to consider as a player, is do I want realism or do I prefer the far easier Maxis Highway (MHY) system for highways. In the early versions of NAM, additional pieces for the MHY system were added that offer a great deal of flexible and mostly compact interchanges. Sometimes I enjoy the simplicity of using MHY myself, although I mostly use the RHW system.

8 hours ago, vetram said:

I think i have the MHW with the black asphalt look , but i dont undestand exactly what you want to mean!...can you pls explain ?

The Maxis Highway Override (MHO) is an optional NAM feature that transforms how MHY looks, into a bi-directional RHW-4 network. For RHW users, it allows seamless connections and can utilise the MiS network for interchanges. In addition it adds some special Roundabout interchanges and new pieces, including FAR support. But, in the process it looses support for almost all of the pre-fab interchanges added for MHY.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

23 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

setting in the TSCT

Naomi, I notice that your "fare" for automobiles is zero. Have you ever considered charging just a little bit, calling it a "gasoline tax" to fund road and highway construction & maintenance? It's easier than placing toll booths, and it works on all cars on all kinds of networks.

[Naomi57 2,985]

1 hour ago, jeffryfisher said:

Naomi, I notice that your "fare" for automobiles is zero. Have you ever considered charging just a little bit, calling it a "gasoline tax" to fund road and highway construction & maintenance? It's easier than placing toll booths, and it works on all cars on all kinds of networks.

I do use Ctrl+X  moolah  for that purpose, in year zero, as a city-startup loan, with one of my gaming goals to pay back the loan.

I actually like working with the vanilla economic settings, so I avoid demand mods and money mods, and avoid mods that introduce economic imbalance.  I DO milk bus fares, but I refuse to use even a toll booth, because it takes away my joy in balancing the city books and managing cash flow.  I enjoy figuring out the best economic opportunities for each city and proving them.  

Certainly, the "gasoline tax" idea is a good one, much better than a money tree in my book.  If easing cash flow pressures makes the game more enjoyable for people, that's a good way to do it.  

[vetram 221]

15 hours ago, rsc204 said:

If that's your preferred solution, do note the E-RRW, which is a modern draggable replacement for the puzzle piece based Viaduct Rail system, will cross all NWM and RHW networks at L1 or L2. Unlike the puzzle pieces, you simply place either an On-Slope or Ramp piece and drag the elevated rail from there, just as you would drawing rail normally.

Great!  that make things even easier !...Thanks for your suggestion 

 

15 hours ago, rsc204 said:

One of the first decisions you'll want to consider as a player, is do I want realism or do I prefer the far easier Maxis Highway (MHY) system for highways.

-I have decided to follow RHW , but i am always looking if there is something i have missed in order to need less room for interchanges ... 

 

15 hours ago, rsc204 said:

The Maxis Highway Override (MHO) is an optional NAM feature that transforms how MHY looks, into a bi-directional RHW-4 network. For RHW users, it allows seamless connections and can utilise the MiS network for interchanges. In addition it adds some special Roundabout interchanges and new pieces, including FAR support. But, in the process it looses support for almost all of the pre-fab interchanges added for MHY.

I have checked MHO when installing NAM , but havent used it yet .. i must admit havent completely understood yet...is there any connection between RHW and MHO? should we use  just one of them or both at the same city ?  which is the reason that exist? ... Anyway thanks indeed for all your suggestions and advices ..

 

On 10/6/2020 at 6:38 AM, Naomi57 said:

Here's a post from @CorinaMarie, where she snips an excerpt of NAM documentation to show how curves are built out of grid tiles.

ok read it , very useful for streets and roads ...

didnt know it , but i was meaning curves for RHW / NWM networks...

 

On 10/6/2020 at 6:38 AM, Naomi57 said:

NOTE:  I think you'll have to change your NAM install to get the Trumpet Interchange, and Partial-Y Interchange, because diagonal interchanges are incompatible with MHO.  There are other mods that re-skin MHW to a black asphalt look.

Finally i think i undestood what you mean ..  as i wrote above i have checked MHO during installation , so i think you mean if i install NAM again without checking it , i am going to get Trumpet Interchange, and Partial-Y Interchange for the MHW .. Right? 

[vetram 221]

On 10/6/2020 at 6:38 AM, Naomi57 said:

Do you know about the save bugs in the TSCT, and the "run as administrator" workaround?

i am feeling that is something serious that i dont know ..pls help

[rsc204 21,805]

3 hours ago, vetram said:

i have checked MHO during installation , so i think you mean if i install NAM again without checking it , i am going to get Trumpet Interchange, and Partial-Y Interchange for the MHW .. Right? 

Exactly, MHO does not support these "simple" interchanges, if you want to use them, you can not also use MHO.

3 hours ago, vetram said:

I have decided to follow RHW , but i am always looking if there is something i have missed in order to need less room for interchanges

Well that's the paradox here, it's not impossible to make compact RHW interchanges, but the options will be limited. Bear in mind I'm talking about interchanges in the sense of a junction where one can enter or exit the highway. Those places where more than one highway intersects, with options to switch highways, are probably going to need some space even for the most basic design.

4 hours ago, vetram said:

I have checked MHO when installing NAM , but havent used it yet .. i must admit havent completely understood yet

You can NOT have both MHY and MHO, they both are the same network, but implemented to work differently. In other words, if you have selected to install MHO, that's why your MHY interchanges are no longer in the menus. You must remove MHO from your NAM install, if you want to restore the original MHY network and it's associated pieces.

Note too, MHO is NOT the dark-asphalt mod for MHY, that is a separate thing that only works with MHY and alters the appearance (but not function) of the MHY system.

4 hours ago, vetram said:

is there any connection between RHW and MHO? should we use  just one of them or both at the same city ? 

Yes, MHO was designed to be used alongside RHW, it can be said to RHW-ify the MHY system. But just because you are using RHW, doesn't mean MHO is right for you, since if you do choose this mod, you can no longer use the original SC4 Highway System and it's pieces.

The choice is basically between:

• MHY which is easy to use to make complex highway systems
• MHO which visually blends in with RHW and works more like RHW than the original highways

If you want more in-depth details, browse to the NAM documentation (\Documents\SimCity 4\NAM Auxiliary Files\Documentation\old), where you should find MHO User Manual.pdf.

4 hours ago, vetram said:

i am feeling that is something serious that i dont know ..pls help

The option to run an application as "Administrator" is part of the Windows OS. When you turn on your computer, you will use a user login or account to do so, for security reasons, it's advised not to run Windows with full (Admin) permissions. However, applications may need to access other applications or edit files in places that require Admin access to work. If you right click on a shortcut, then select the option Run as Administrator, you give this application full access to the system. You must as a user decide if doing so would be safe or not, since doing this with a malicious file would end very badly indeed. Although in the case of the TSCT, I can assure you there is no such security risk as part of the files installed by NAM.

[vetram 221]

rsc204 thanks so much for your informations and support 

i have understood everything you wrote , and i would like to ask you which of the two (and i mean MHY and MHO )  do you suggest me to use?   Let me ask (if you know)  which one NAM is going to support in future updates?  

and something about TSCT ..... few posts above Naomi wrote the following...

On 10/6/2020 at 6:38 AM, Naomi57 said:

Do you know about the save bugs in the TSCT, and the "run as administrator" workaround?

first are you talking about the same thing Naomi mentioned?   and if yes must i do something ?  Naomi mentioned about save bugs ...is there any bug ?         thats my TSCT shorcut  .... the same picture exist for every shortcut i have in all of my desktop icons ...should i click Run as administrator every time i open it?

[vetram 221]

As a continuation of the above post i would like to ask something i always want to ask and always forget ... I am in a phase building roads in my city from scratch and i am not sure if i must use Maxis roads or NWM roads ... I also mostly see in other mayors pics or CJ's they use the vanilla maxis roads ... my question is simple...does NAM also boost maxis roads in their capacity ?    I know that it does so in NWM roads ,  but what about vanilla maxis roads?  

if the answer is yes , would you suggest me to use maxis roads at the begining of placing them in a new city and after , wherever i see lot of traffic to alter  into NWM mods?   ( wherever is possible ...i mean wherever there is room in game tiles)  ...   forgive me if that's a silly question !  

[rsc204 21,805]

On 11/06/2020 at 6:05 PM, vetram said:

i would like to ask you which of the two (and i mean MHY and MHO )  do you suggest me to use?

Well that would be like me telling you you prefer Chocolate to Vanilla, it's one of those personal choice things. Personally I feel from your replies in this thread, you might prefer to use the original MHY system. MHO is really best for players who've left MHY behind for RHW, since it adds to the RHW toolset rather than letting the original highways remain unused. If you do decide to stick with MHO, most of your interchanges will need to be built using the modular MHO/RHW pieces. However T-Intersection, Cloverleaf and Roundabout Intersections are unique intersections designed for MHO.

On 11/06/2020 at 6:05 PM, vetram said:

which one NAM is going to support in future updates?  

Honestly, for the most part one could say neither, although one thing is for sure, MHY development is long finished. Frankly, most conceivably useful pieces have already been created and making such pre-fab intersections could take up to a year or more for a single one.

MHO has only had limited support since it's creation, I've done a few mostly cosmetic changes and in NAM 37 is the option to use Drag patterns to make basic ramps, a feature added in NAM 33 for the main RHW networks. As of right now, I know of no concrete plans to develop MHO further, although I personally have some ideas I'd like to work on for it. Likewise, the recent break-through allowing for some Pre-Fab FLEX-based interchanges for RHW (unreleased currently), may lead to some additional options for MHO.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about support all that much, both styles have pretty much all they need to function. Try both options and see which feels best for you, as I said before, I mainly use MHO and RHW, but not always, precisely because MHY is more compact, not to mention much quicker and easier to use in practise.

On 11/06/2020 at 6:05 PM, vetram said:

first are you talking about the same thing Naomi mentioned?   and if yes must i do something ?  Naomi mentioned about save bugs ...is there any bug ?         thats my TSCT shorcut  .... the same picture exist for every shortcut i have in all of my desktop icons ...should i click Run as administrator every time i open it?

I wouldn't say this is a bug per-se, programs are developed using the software of that time, likely when this was made, you had Admin access and just didn't know it. That's really the issue, to improve OS security, default user accounts no longer have Admin access. This can restrict the ability of applications like this to correctly carry out the tasks they are supposed to. Windows has the option on an App by App basis to run with Admin rights, if doing this prevents problems saving, then yes you probably need to do this every time you run TSCT. Just know that you should only do this for applications you trust, there are security risks involved in invoking this option.

On 11/06/2020 at 6:39 PM, vetram said:

I am in a phase building roads in my city from scratch and i am not sure if i must use Maxis roads or NWM roads

Unless you really can plan ahead how much traffic is going to use certain routes, starting smaller (cheaper), then upgrading is the usual SimCity way.

However, my personal play style is quite specifically targeted more at how things look and a semblance of realism, NWM is just one tool I use to get there. I tend to have most of my major transport systems and main roads built, long before I bother to make zones.

On 11/06/2020 at 6:39 PM, vetram said:

would you suggest me to use maxis roads at the begining of placing them in a new city and after , wherever i see lot of traffic to alter  into NWM mods

Again this really is personal preference and just because I do something one way, doesn't make the other less valid. You should decide which of these methods best matches how you want to play the game. That's important to remember, SC4 isn't a typical win/loose type of game, we as players can choose our own rules to follow. For example, the Natural Growth style of play is where everything starts small and grows slowly over time. Think trying to replicate the changes of a city over many years. If you play this way, you wouldn't want much NWM around until the city really started growing. But maybe you're doing a recreation of an existing city, in which case, getting the larger and more restrictive networks in place first, is going to be your best strategy.