New Derivative Texture Pack

[11241036 5,115]

As requested by Corina, I'm opening a separate topic on something I announced at the "Show Us What You're Working On" thread in this post. For further details, please check the link. This is a table of these textures:

Recently, I've been working on creating some overlay textures based on various textures by Maxis, BSC and Pegasus. Aside from the fact that I don't know how useful they might be (there are already a lot of textures online everywhere, and I don't want to share something not that useful), there's also the question of how to get permission to share them. According to Corina, derivative textures are not allowed to be shared, but she also thinks that this need not be taken as an absolute rule. I'm now tagging @CorinaMarie and @Cyclone Boom as of how to proceed, like requested by Corina.

Nevertheless, of course, I won't share anything without explicit permission. I'll stick with the textures derived from Maxis textures, and if I'm not getting permission, I won't share anything at all.

What I did exactly:

• I've taken two textures by BSC and modified them; the diagonal brown sandstone, already part of BSC Textures Vol 1, and the dark red brick texture, which I couldn't find at all, but I modified some overlay textures found in BSC Textures Vol 2 to turn them a base texture.
• Two texture types are also derived from the MTP Super Textures pack; the red sandstone and the grey stone pavers.
• And I made the gravel texture by modifying the FSH files of an MMP inside Pegasus' Terrain Kit and turning it into a texture.

Answer to @xxdita: These textures are from my own texture range and shouldn't override any in-game content, neither default SimCity 4 nor custom. My texture range is: F85C0000-F85FFFFF. I already requested this range a long time ago, but never had time for sharing textures.

[xxdita 1,097]

As far as I'm concerned, you said the magic words with "new instances". No existing content will be affected, and lotters will be able to choose between your textures and the originals as they please. I will still need to consult with my teammates, but I don't see a problem. 

I am a hardcore enforcer of community standards and you've already won me over, but I can't make a judgment call for STEX content. 

I would like to see the new textures compared to the originals in-game, to see just how much of a difference there really is. It may be helpful for Cori & CB to see the same with PEG's stuff as well, so they can make an informed decision on the matter. You're either going to wow us all, or leave us wondering what's the point. No pressure. 

[11241036 5,115]

9 minutes ago, xxdita said:

As far as I'm concerned, you said the magic words with "new instances". No existing content will be affected, and lotters will be able to choose between your textures and the originals as they please. I will still need to consult with my teammates, but I don't see a problem. 

I am a hardcore enforcer of community standards and you've already won me over, but I can't make a judgment call for STEX content. 

I would like to see the new textures compared to the originals in-game, to see just how much of a difference there really is. It may be helpful for Cori & CB to see the same with PEG's stuff as well, so they can make an informed decision on the matter. You're either going to wow us all, or leave us wondering what's the point. No pressure. 

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

I actually don't understand your last question. Perhaps I've been just expressing myself badly. These are just modifications of some already available textures where a part of it is transparent, not more. I didn't change the graphics in any other way. Surely I won't wow all of you, but I just did it for having more lotting options. Sorry. Perhaps this picture, taken in LE, helps getting an imagination:

[xxdita 1,097]

I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I was thinking that you had done more intense graphics work, to change the overall looks of the textures. So your textures would be an extension of what's already available, providing lotters with options they don't have now? And so this would compliment existing textures, allowing for designs that have not been available before? Am I understanding now?

[11241036 5,115]

17 minutes ago, xxdita said:

I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I was thinking that you had done more intense graphics work, to change the overall looks of the textures. So your textures would be an extension of what's already available, providing lotters with options they don't have now? And so this would compliment existing textures, allowing for designs that have not been available before? Am I understanding now?

Yes, it's exactly that way. If you want, I can send you the files per PM, so you can check on your own, that would probably be the easiest way.

[xxdita 1,097]

Community standards totally allow for existing custom content to be altered and repurposed for new uploads, with the single absolute exception of model files, but even then there can be extenuating circumstances that have to be considered case by case. It is required that you properly credit the original creators for their works though. 

I'm not big on photo-editing lingo, but basically, you've cropped the existing textures in order to make new overlays that did not exist before, right? If that's the case, then I see absolutely no issue. This is well within community guidelines. 

[xxdita 1,097]

@11241036 You have the full blessing of BSC, and my blessing to upload the texture pack to the LEX. 

You have followed every requirement of the community standards set long ago. There is absolutely no valid reason to forbid you being able to upload your textures. I do appreciate you asking permission though. 

I'm anxious to see them in your future creations. 

[11241036 5,115]

23 minutes ago, xxdita said:

@11241036 You have the full blessing of BSC, and my blessing to upload the texture pack to the LEX. 

You have followed every requirement of the community standards set long ago. There is absolutely no valid reason to forbid you being able to upload your textures. I do appreciate you asking permission though. 

I'm anxious to see them in your future creations. 

Thank you very much for your help and giving me permission. I hope too I can get them to good use, I had very little time for playing (or lotting around in) SC4 until this recent Corona virus incident. I must admit I'm missing it.

@CorinaMarie: Tagging you again because there are still two question left:

Can xxdita's posts be interpreted in a way that it would be OK to share those cropped MTP textures (rows 13-15 in the table) although I can't ask Pegasus for permission anymore? If no, then of course I won't release them.

The lowest row of textures is the only one I made by myself by turning a model into a texture. Would that be OK?

[xxdita 1,097]

Do you have a link to the MTP textures? 

[11241036 5,115]

 

[CorinaMarie 29,895]

2 hours ago, 11241036 said:

Can xxdita's posts be interpreted in a way that it would be OK to share those cropped MTP textures (rows 13-15 in the table) although I can't ask Pegasus for permission anymore? If no, then of course I won't release them.

The lowest row of textures is the only one I made by myself by turning a model into a texture. Would that be OK?

CB and I put it up for comments as a staff discussion.

The gist of it from a long term staff member who's been here well over a decade is: "The community standard is that you can't release something which you don't have the right to. You have to link it as a dependency." (Since that was in private, I'm not making it a quote, but it's fine if they want the credit here in public, ofc.)

So, the permissions and ruling from @xxdita will apply to BSC textures for which he is the custodian and, I presume, to any content on SC4Devotion based on his role as a LEX Admin.

For the Pegasus textures on the STEX, CB and I assume the role of caretakers in Peg's absence. We know that Peg was a prolific creator with the intent to provide anyone and everyone with useful content to use in their game. Continuing that idea we grant permission for your derived textures because they show the same helpful intent to offer more choices to the community. By their very nature they do need to work harmoniously with the existing Peg textures. The requirement here will be to give credit to Peg as you've already stated you planned to do.

Our permission also extends to the textures you derived from Peg's FSH.

-Cori & CB

[xxdita 1,097]

53 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

So, the permissions and ruling from @xxdita will apply to BSC textures for which he is the custodian and, I presume, to any content on SC4Devotion based on his role as a LEX Admin.

Limited to the specific content that has been discussed, for this project, yes. 

[xxdita 1,097]

13 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

The gist of it from a long term staff member who's been here well over a decade is: "The community standard is that you can't release something which you don't have the right to. You have to link it as a dependency." (Since that was in private, I'm not making it a quote, but it's fine if they want the credit here in public, ofc.)

In this case, linking as a dependency is not an option. These specific overlay textures have never existed before. The original texture images have been put into a photo-editing software and manipulated in order to create a wider variety of overlay textures, then were put back into appropriate game format to be used for future lotting endeavors. 

The rules are meant to prevent something like this. Somy has given his permission to NDEX and BSC (at different times) to upload his work for the English-speaking community, as he was quite familiar with the quality standards of both teams. Even though STEX staff did credit Somy for the model, after the fact, there was never any permission for this model to be uploaded with this lot. Somy never would have given his blessing to someone so unproven at the time. (The same uploader has another Somy work as well) For point of reference, BSC was given custodian authorities in Spring 2007, this file was uploaded a year later. Equinox is still free to upload Somy works to the STEX. But no one else has ever been granted permission by Somy himself, nor have BSC or NDEX custodians ever granted such permission. Even though a search of the word Somy on the STEX gives a shocking number of similar results. I'd be interested in your long term staff member's opinion on that. 

So if it were determined that MTP texture #17 had simply been removed from the pack and then redistributed, well then that would serve no purpose. Proper dependency protocols would apply. But that is absolutely not the case in this matter. Asking permission for this project is a sign of respect, which is greatly appreciated, but was never required. 

[CorinaMarie 29,895]

53 minutes ago, xxdita said:

In this case, linking as a dependency is not an option. These specific overlay textures have never existed before.

Agreed.

Since that is the case for these specific derived works, permission has been granted to do so from those Peg textures which are hosted on the STEX.

[xxdita 1,097]

I do hope you'll get back to me on the Somy matter with a satisfactory resolution. 

[CorinaMarie 29,895]

3 minutes ago, xxdita said:

I do hope you'll get back to me on the Somy matter with a satisfactory resolution. 

I jumped to the first link you provided and it's a file which was uploaded 12 years ago. I'm going on the assumption any issues where handled by staff long before my time.

[xxdita 1,097]

2 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

I jumped to the first link you provided and it's a file which was uploaded 12 years ago. I'm going on the assumption any issues where handled by staff long before my time.

The way it was "handled" was to properly credit Somy for his model. As the only active authorized Custodian for Somy's creations, I'm saying that I do not find this any more acceptable than I did in 2008 when BarbyW and I both commented on the file. It is an affront to the very community standards mentioned by your longtime staff member as you wrote above. The model is available in a prop pack on the LEX, as it was at the time this file was uploaded. 

So, now that you are aware of the matter, I am directly asking you to review it, as an admin. 

[CorinaMarie 29,895]

2 minutes ago, xxdita said:

So, now that you are aware of the matter, I am directly asking you to review it, as an admin.

Got it. I'm not aware why the decisions were made as they were in the past.

Go ahead and report the file (and any others which have Somy's models included when they should be dependency linkys) and we'll get those fixed. And please provide the linky to the prop pack.

[xxdita 1,097]

8 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

Got it. I'm not aware why the decisions were made as they were in the past.

Go ahead and report the file (and any others which have Somy's models included when they should be dependency linkys) and we'll get those fixed. And please provide the linky to the prop pack.

I have no problem reporting the files, but I have too much else going on to do the research on figuring out which model is in which pack. You and your staff will need to put in that effort. My obligations to the LEX come first. 

[CorinaMarie 29,895]

Just now, xxdita said:

I have no problem reporting the files, but I have too much else going on to do the research on figuring out which model is in which pack.

Sure, that's understandable. I got the impression you knew exactly which pack it was. Just do the reporting part and I'll remove the offending files.

[11241036 5,115]

@CorinaMarie @xxdita OK thank you both of you. I'll make sure to use these textures sooner or later (depending on if real life lets me).

[11241036 5,115]

@xxdita Sorry for bothering again. Do you by chance know who exactly needs to be credited in the case of the derived BSC textures? The LEX just mentions "BSC" as the author and doesn't mention who in particular made these textures.

[xxdita 1,097]

3 hours ago, 11241036 said:

@xxdita Sorry for bothering again. Do you by chance know who exactly needs to be credited in the case of the derived BSC textures? The LEX just mentions "BSC" as the author and doesn't mention who in particular made these textures.

I would say that Geoffhaw and BarbyW should be credited for sure, but I don't have a master list of all the texture ranges used. I believe catty has such a list. 

[catty-cb 4,412]

40 minutes ago, xxdita said:

I would say that Geoffhaw and BarbyW should be credited for sure, but I don't have a master list of all the texture ranges used. I believe catty has such a list. 

I'll have a rummage thru my home computer tonight, but at one point I was responsible for the master prop family ranges so have a complete list of those except for the recent ones issued, but not sure just how much information I've got on the texture ranges .... Geoffhaw was at one point uploading his texture range lists to the STEX as a backup, so it might be worth checking on there.

-catty

[catty-cb 4,412]

Back again .... went back and had a look thru the Texture Range topic over at SC4D, I'd forgotten that mid-way last year both myself and @mattb325 had after Geoffhaw passing and realizing that no-one had a master list of the texture ranges had separately put together lists of the ranges, the list I came up with is still over at SC4D in this post

https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=2101.msg532471#msg532471

And I'll attach a copy of it here as well, If that doesn't help then there is still @mattb325 list .... which I do have a copy of, but will leave that up to him as to whether he wants to post it or not.

-catty

Texture-Index-catty.txt

[catty-cb 4,412]

On 5/27/2020 at 4:39 AM, xxdita said:

The model is available in a prop pack on the LEX, as it was at the time this file was uploaded.

I've got all the Somy Prop Packs from the LEX, and I could be wrong as I'm only looking at the cleanitol lists that were provided in each pack and this model isn't in any of them, and its also possible I've got out-of-date prop packs as it been a while since I've done any updating of my plugins folder.

But the model in question is on the STEX

 

  Edited May 30, 2020 by catty-cb  
Soory for the three posts in a row

[11241036 5,115]

51 minutes ago, catty-cb said:

Back again .... went back and had a look thru the Texture Range topic over at SC4D, I'd forgotten that mid-way last year both myself and @mattb325 had after Geoffhaw passing and realizing that no-one had a master list of the texture ranges had separately put together lists of the ranges, the list I came up with is still over at SC4D in this post

https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=2101.msg532471#msg532471

And I'll attach a copy of it here as well, If that doesn't help then there is still @mattb325 list .... which I do have a copy of, but will leave that up to him as to whether he wants to post it or not.

-catty

Texture-Index-catty.txt

Thank you. Unfortunately, it didn't help; the textures in question are 2d580000 from BSC Textures Vol 1 and 350c4300 from BSC Textures Vol 2. Both texture packages have been uploaded  to the LEX in 2007.

[11241036 5,115]

@CorinaMarie @catty-cb @xxdita

Sorry to bother again, but I'd like to remind you that there's still the outstanding question of to whom exactly I should give credit in case of the modified BSC textures. If this cannot be found out anymore, how shall I proceed? Should I just refrain from sharing those textures that I've derived from BSC textures, or should I write a general credit to "the BSC people" or the like?

[CorinaMarie 29,895]

2 hours ago, 11241036 said:

... write a general credit to "the BSC people" or the like?

This is perfectly acceptable in my view.

[catty-cb 4,412]

9 hours ago, 11241036 said:

@CorinaMarie @catty-cb @xxdita

Sorry to bother again, but I'd like to remind you that there's still the outstanding question of to whom exactly I should give credit in case of the modified BSC textures.....

Sorry I didn't say anything as I didn't think it was something I could give an opinion on .... but from a user point of view, maybe instead of just BSC people have a link to the SC4D Encyclopaedia link for the BSC Team

https://wiki.sc4devotion.com/index.php?title=BSC

Thru it does say that

Quote

geoffhaw made all the custom textures