Prepping my First Region

[rsc204 21,864]

Indeed just placing those files into your plugins folder is not correct. You need to replace the originals in the Install DIR/Plugins folder. It's a good idea to make a backup of the originals before installing these replacements too.

[That Retro Guy 321]

Got it!  The starfield is working, and it looks a lot better than it did.  Thanks for your help.

On a highway, the yellow line is in the middle, but on the off/on ramp, the yellow line is on the outside?

[rsc204 21,864]

31 minutes ago, That Retro Guy said:

On a highway, the yellow line is in the middle, but on the off/on ramp, the yellow line is on the outside?

Well if the on/offramp is only one lane, that kinda makes sense no? You only have them in the centre for parts which are bi-directional.

[That Retro Guy 321]

Because I'm starting on a small map and space is at a premium, here's the overpass that I came up with . . .

As I said, room is very tight on a small map, and this will fit very nicely, but is it built properly?  I think that it looks horrible, but I'll line the highways with trees.  Maybe then it'll look better.

Any critiques?

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

You should be able to shrink the ramps by 4 each. Look at  diggers and tunnels.

EXTRA: Where the paths intersect, the combined traffic volumes create congestion, even if at different levels (all above-ground traffic in a cell adds together). However, if you used tunnels, then the flows would not interfere with each other.

[That Retro Guy 321]

19 minutes ago, jeffryfisher said:

You should be able to shrink the ramps by 4 each. Look at  diggers and tunnels.

EXTRA: Where the paths intersect, the combined traffic volumes create congestion, even if at different levels (all above-ground traffic in a cell adds together). However, if you used tunnels, then the flows would not interfere with each other.

But if a Sim gets off of the highway, he'll need the paths to intersect so that he can turn onto the Avenue.  Or am I missing something basic?

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

Sorry, I was referring to the overpass itself, not the ramp-avenue intersections. It may look like the avenue and highway are grade-separated (on different levels), but SC4 (I was told last year) sums all traffic on all levels of a cell as if it were all cramming into a ground-level intersection.

However, tunnels work by hyperspace-bypass magic, so the traffic inside a tunnel is not included in the sum. Therefore, if you ever have a congested over/underpass, tunneling can unclog the crossing points.

[That Retro Guy 321]

So I should raise the ground where the Avenue and the Highway are, and put a tunnel in.  How high do I need to raise the ground to make a tunnel?  7.5m or 15m?

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

2 minutes ago, That Retro Guy said:

How high do I need to raise the ground to make a tunnel?

That might depend on your slope-mod settings, but I think it's 15. Try hovering over the hole-diggers and raisers in the menu to see if there are hints.

[That Retro Guy 321]

Will do!  Thanks!

[That Retro Guy 321]

OK.  Here's what I have now. 

It's a bit bigger than I hoped, but I think that it looks better.  A couple of questions:

1.  How do I know that the Avenue is connected underground?  Is there a way to check? (Yes, I know that's 2 questions . . . ) 

2.  I'd like to extend the highway lane that leads to the off-ramp.  How do I do that without destroying what I've built so far?  (It happened already) 

  Edited February 6, 2018 by That Retro Guy  
Bad grammar. My English teacher would be soooo disappointed in me.

[CorinaMarie 29,867]

1 hour ago, That Retro Guy said:

I think that it looks better.

I like the look of it much better.

 

1 hour ago, That Retro Guy said:

How do I know that the Avenue is connected underground?  Is there a way to check? (Yes, I know that's 2 questions . . . ) 

When I did Cori's First FLUP - With Pics I tested with the Route Query tool:

(The linked thread is way more basic than you need, but that was my teeny, tiny contribution to help peeps who are installing NAM for the first time.)

However, I believe @jeffryfisher is referring to using actual tunnels.

[brianc1327 161]

I just want to point out 2 things that as far as I can tell have not been pointed out (though perhaps you have found these on your own) for your "utility" cities.

There is a power plant called the "cosmic neutrino power plant" that produces more than enough power and water for a grid even much larger than the one you showed in your OP, that way you won't have to build a bunch of power plants and water pumps in your "utility cities."

Link to power plant: https://community.simtropolis.com/search/?&q=cosmic neutrino power plant&type=downloads_file

For the trash, there is a hyperspace garbage dump here on the STEX as well that gets rid of a bunch of garbage so you do not have to zone a large portion of your "utility towns" as landfill zone.  They cost 9.7 million simoleons, but your original post makes it seem that you are not adverse to using cheats, and there are plenty of money cheats, such as the "extra cheats.dll" mod for the "moolah" cheat, the infinite money park that I use, and others as well.

Link to Hyperspace Garbage dump: https://community.simtropolis.com/search/?&q=hyperspace garbage dump&type=downloads_file

Brian Christiansen

[That Retro Guy 321]

@CorinaMarie, I checked to see if my Avenue was connected by laying Water Pipes.  The Avenue is not connected with each other.  I have looked high and low, but I can't find the connecting piece for Highway over an underground Avenue. 

Should I just start over and try to figure out how to make a Tunnel?  I've watched a few videos, but I'm having zero luck in practice.  I use Digger tools to make a hole that is supposedly deep enough for an Avenue Tunnel, but when I place the Avenue, everything levels off, the Avenue is completely level and there's no hole whatsoever. 

@brianc1327, thanks for the links.  Question:  the Hyperspace trash has 3 dependencies.  Does that mean that I have to download all 3 to get the Trash mod to work?

[CorinaMarie 29,867]

2 minutes ago, That Retro Guy said:

I checked to see if my Avenue was connected by laying Water Pipes.

Care to explain? I'm drawing a complete blank how water pipes and avenue traffic are related.

 

3 minutes ago, That Retro Guy said:

Should I just start over and try to figure out how to make a Tunnel?

Raise some ground and drag an avenue thru it. The tunnel is automatic if the ground on each side is lower. (There's certain heights that are too low but a bit of trial and error should do it.)

I'm out of time tonight, but if you haven't gotten it figured out or someone doesn't post a better explanation I'll see about doing a screenshot or two.

[That Retro Guy 321]

24 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

Care to explain? I'm drawing a complete blank how water pipes and avenue traffic are related.

I went to lay some water pipes, and the Avenue is visible, but not connected.  Or am I just seeing things?

[rsc204 21,864]

10 hours ago, That Retro Guy said:

1.  How do I know that the Avenue is connected underground?  Is there a way to check? (Yes, I know that's 2 questions . . . ) 

It's not, because I can see there are no FLUP pieces on the highway next to the ramps.

3rd from bottom of the road menu is the Tab-Ring containing the RHW FLUPs. Use Shift+Tab to go backwards, the FLUPs are right at the end of this menu. Find the RHW-4 ones and place them, you'll get a bit of concrete besides the RHW, that way you know they are connected. FLUPs are special and you will always have to connect up both sides, with the exception of the Ave Roundabout, which has FLUPs (in one direction) by default. For further help with FLUPs, see this video:

10 hours ago, That Retro Guy said:

2.  I'd like to extend the highway lane that leads to the off-ramp.  How do I do that without destroying what I've built so far?  (It happened already) 

When deleting parts of a RHW with connections and the like, it's safer to use the RHW Disconnecter tool. You need to select it (Highway Menu), then click on each tile you want to remove individually. There is something called auto-connect which if you use the regular bulldozer around such setups, will ruin your day. The Disconnecter is our best solution currently to prevent auto-connect doing it's thing.

12 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

Sorry, I was referring to the overpass itself, not the ramp-avenue intersections. It may look like the avenue and highway are grade-separated (on different levels), but SC4 (I was told last year) sums all traffic on all levels of a cell as if it were all cramming into a ground-level intersection.

This argument is fallacious at best. Whilst I know JeffryFisher finds this to be a major problem, the fact is it isn't. Why, well because the NAM team are totally aware of this limitation and have done what we can to prevent the issue. Not to mention, you need to stop thinking about the real world, SC4 isn't real, it's a simulation. So yes, there might be more congestion at the tiles where the overpass is, because the capacity isn't doubled for two networks. But, it's only a few tiles and it has the effect of simulating the reality, that next to such a busy intersection there would be more traffic. I.e., it adds a small time cost to traffic going through that area. This is pretty minor though, when you consider that sims don't really do traffic jams, such as would occur in the real world. Specifically, sims just travel at full speed on every section of road, there is no factoring in local conditions like traffic. With the exception of intersecting roads and congested roads, which incur this small time penalty. However, overall the Simulator Z does a fine job of balancing these limitations with allowing sims sufficient time to get to work. So unless there is a major design flaw with your roads, it shouldn't be a cause for concern.

Obviously everyone can make what they want, but if you are looking to make nice looking interchanges, I wouldn't get too caught up on this kind of thing. Otherwise every interchange you make will look very similar.

[CorinaMarie 29,867]

11 hours ago, That Retro Guy said:

I use Digger tools to make a hole that is supposedly deep enough for an Avenue Tunnel, but when I place the Avenue, everything levels off, the Avenue is completely level and there's no hole whatsoever. 

Ok, this is me using vanilla (with terrain and slope mods) without NAM and no special Digger or Raise terrain tools, but it should show the general concept:

Now keep in mind I'm not saying this is the best way to make an intersection as that's not my area of expertise. Just that if one wants the Tunnel Method here's a way it can be done.

[T Wrecks 10,210]

It sometimes happens that a tunnel cannot be built because the terrain is too low IIRC.

[matias93 7,535]

The tunnel method, being more complicated, is not the best when other alternatives are available, but is needed in some cases, as NWM roads or avenues overpassing the intersection (as they don't have viaduct alternatives) or with tram in avenue or tram in/on road overpasses.

Mind also that the slope mods generally alter the height at which tunnels can be dragged. While the Maxis configuration usually requires 12 or even 15 metres deep trenches to drag tunnels, you can achieve realistic results with as few as 7,5 metres, by modifying your slope mod. This is really useful to get small footprints on trenched intersections, as depth is directly proportional to the distance the exit and entrance ramps have to be to go from inside the trench to the intersection itself.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

3 hours ago, matias93 said:

slope mods generally alter the height at which tunnels can be dragged.

They set thresholds for both height and slope of the entry-face (and interior slope). So the tunnel must pass under something, and it must enter/exit where the terrain is steep.

19 hours ago, That Retro Guy said:

Here's what I have now. 

That's a pic of a FLUP, not a tunnel. To complete the FLUP, you would need FLUP path-under-RHW pieces, and I can't recall if those exist. I've only used FLUPs under railroads.

 

15 hours ago, That Retro Guy said:

went to lay some water pipes, and the Avenue is visible, but not connected

FLUP underpass paths wouldn't show up in the underground view anyway. They're indicated by tiny tabs above ground. Some tools' hovering will make them glow too (if they were there, which they weren't in your pic). BTW, I don't think tunnels show in the underground view either, just pipes and subways.

 

9 hours ago, rsc204 said:

 

22 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

Sorry, I was referring to the overpass itself, not the ramp-avenue intersections. It may look like the avenue and highway are grade-separated (on different levels), but SC4 (I was told last year) sums all traffic on all levels of a cell as if it were all cramming into a ground-level intersection.

This argument is fallacious at best...

It's not even an argument, merely a description of how (I was told) the game functions. As far as I can tell, you don't dispute or falsify any of the facts I cited, so please don't use a flame-war term like "fallacious" to describe my writing.

[rsc204 21,864]

1 hour ago, jeffryfisher said:

It's not even an argument, merely a description of how (I was told) the game functions. As far as I can tell, you don't dispute or falsify any of the facts I cited, so please don't use a flame-war term like "fallacious" to describe my writing.

Were discussing opinions here, and in my opinion to think as you do is wrong, it simply isn't a problem when you look at the bigger picture. I recall discussing it with you at the time and realise its something you are obviously bothered by. But to go as far as to alter how you build in the game, restricting the use of such pieces simply doesn't make sense. I'm not trying to start a flame war, I simply don't agree with your reasoning on this one.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

6 hours ago, rsc204 said:

I simply don't agree with your reasoning on this one.

FACT: Traffic at all network levels is combined and counted against a cell's capacity.

What part of that is incorrect?

You say you're not trying to start a flame war, but you say "to think as you do is wrong". You may not realize it, but your phrasing is repeatedly and increasingly insulting!

[rsc204 21,864]

For absolute clarity, I have never stated that such tiles, one network crossing another, do not share their capacity. Obviously this is a fact that I'm well aware of, we've discussed it personally when you first brought it up.

All I have said here is that I disagree with your view that this is some sort of major problem. Something to be avoided at all costs when building networks. I don't believe that it is, certainly not when you consider the downsides to taking that stance. I'd prefer to have the creativity to use all the available pieces, knowing that in reality the traffic simulator can handle the extra load and it isn't going to break anything.

I must say I do feel you are focussing on one tiny part of what I'm saying, rather than taking my statements as a whole. As such, can I respectfully ask that you consider everything I'm saying before accusing me of trying to cause trouble, something which I feel is grossly unfair in context.

Quote

fallacious
adjective

1.

containing a fallacy; logically unsound:

fallacious arguments.

2.

deceptive; misleading:

fallacious testimony.

This is my personal feeling; if you only focus on the fact that these tiles have a lower capacity, without consideration of all the other factors involved. Then your conclusion not to use these pieces is fallacious. Once more, I am not stating this as fact, I am stating it as my personal reasoning and opinion. As always, your mileage may vary.

[That Retro Guy 321]

Finally!  After looking at @CorinaMarie's pictures and a day and a half of abject failure, I finally managed to make a (darn) tunnel:

 

It dawned on me that when attempting to place the tunnel, I still had the roads on top of the hill.  I eliminated those, and VOILA!

The intersection of the off/on-ramps with the Avenue will hopefully be on the 3rd square (maybe the 2nd) from the tunnel's exits.  Again, I'll be using this on a small map.  Space is at a premium.

You can see which highway that I'll be using.  EXACTLY which off-ramp should I use?

[CorinaMarie 29,867]

5 minutes ago, That Retro Guy said:

I finally managed to make a (darn) tunnel:

That's a damn darn nice tunnel intersection you've created.

 

6 minutes ago, That Retro Guy said:

EXACTLY which off-ramp should I use?

Now we are back to needing expert advice since I have no idea which to suggest.

[rsc204 21,864]

A couple thoughts, I could be wrong, but it looks like you've used RHW-3 for the highway sections? Bear in mind in the RHW parlance, the number is used to denote the total number of lanes of the highway, i.e., RHW-6S means 3 lanes when used in both directions. RHW-3 is unique in this sense, because it provides for two lanes in one direction and one in the other to make up a total of 3. They aren't really intended to be used together like that, you should use RHW-6S or 6C instead.

Having an existing network when you try to build a tunnel causes problems, as you've figured out, you should remove them before attempting to build one.

As for the ramps, I would use a diagonal ramp, since that will be needed to get the necessary distance from the highway to connect with the avenue. Drag out at a 90 Degree angle of the outer edge of the RHW one tile, then up one tile, then drag from this diagonally. Such a ramp will then be automatically created for you. Otherwise if you prefer, place a B1 Flex Ramp.

[matias93 7,535]

somewhat offtopic, but don't you think it would be useful to have a handful of GIFs of ramps being dragged to show easily how it's done in the forums?

[That Retro Guy 321]

I upgraded the highway to RHW-4 (I only want 2 lanes in each direction on a small map), and after hours of effort (not to mention much swearing), here is the Interchange:

 

It's a bit long, but every attempt to shorten the distance between the ramps and the Avenue met with 'Unsuitable grade for construction'.  No matter how much I flatten the ground, I still get that same message (and I'm only trying to shorten the distance by 2 tiles on each side!)

I've seen in various videos these 'Sound Breaker walls' that line highways.  Do they actually lower Traffic noise, or are they purely cosmetic?

Also, does anybody know where I can get the cosmetic Highway Exit signs?  They look cool.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

On 2/9/2018 at 1:37 PM, That Retro Guy said:

every attempt to shorten the distance between the ramps and the Avenue met with 'Unsuitable grade for construction'.

That's a result of strict slope parameters. When you get iLives Reader 1.54 0.93, one of the first things you'll want to do is to open up a slope-mod file so you can customize the network-building parameters to suit your own tastes for aesthetics versus ease-of-use. There are so many parameters in each network that it's unlikely an off-the-rack slope-mod will satisfy.

Not only can you permit steeper slopes, but you can set how flexible each network is (how much slope is allowed to change within each cell). Steep and flexible roads are easy to place but can look lumpy as they limply conform to every fault in the terrain. Stiff roads make graceful lines... if you can get them to work at all.

And then there are the smoothing steps... Early slope modders like Ennedi seem to have ignored them, but I find them extremely helpful for both ease-of-use and aesthetics.

BTW, What net are the ramps built on? Do they use the same dirt-road net as RHW, or are they streets or roads?

  Edited November 18, 2019 by jeffryfisher  
Changed preferred version of reader