My Take on the Catalonia Crisis

[TekindusT 3,809]

I'm writing this post in anger. It's not blind rage, it's more of a deep, bitter anger, product of the powerlessness of witnessing the demise of the system we believe in. It rises directly from the stomach. A few minutes ago, eight democratically elected Catalan officials have been held by the Spanish court [link]. Their felony? Such a grave felony that needs to be judged in only 1 day, in the Spanish Audiencia Nacional, which is still a remnant of the Francoist Spain? Allowing Catalans to vote.

This is going to be a long post, and not too structured. It's the result of not wanting to be too vocal here in ST, not too controversial. The current events area can be quite a place for a small fish like me. Last time I talked about this topic here was with our missed Nonny. I've been thinking of writing about Catalonia for a couple months already, sick of some scenes I've witnessed and sick of seeing how apathic the general foreign public is. Sometimes bordering the vomit. I'm writing this to raise awareness, same as people concerned about, say, cancer research, will right posts raising awareness about cancer research. But before, just a bit about myself, so you can understand my argumentation.

I'm a Catalan. I've been born and raised there, about half an hour by train from downtown Barcelona. I've lived since 4 years and a half in Germany just because I found a great job here. Never been a Catalan nationalist, I don't really feel comfortable among blind nationalism. Never been a Spanish nationalist either. My dad is from Southern Spain and my mom from Northern Catalonia, so you can be sure I'm very familiar with both cultures. I'm bilingual in Catalan and Spanish as I also learnt both languages at school no matter what Spanish propaganda says. This is quite the usual situation, most of people my generation are sons and daughters with, at least, one parent from outside of Catalonia. For those coming from nations with a very strong national feeling can understand my stance: when Spain national football team won the FIFA World Cup in 2010, I felt exactly the same as when Germany won it in 2014. Nothing too far from indifference. I was a bit happy for the Catalan players in the team, that's all. I know some cultures have problems with that. 

Never forget October 1st 2017.

Enough with my background. I showed up to work exactly one month ago, on October 2nd, and every single one of my colleagues asked something on the likes of "What's going on there in Spain? Do you want to split or something? It is so horrible!". Well, welcome to the world dear colleague, I've been talking about that since pretty much you know me! The movement for the independence of Catalonia goes back for decades, but it only gained relevance in the last years. Media tends to set this point of no-return in year 2010, when, said shortly, the Spanish Constitutional Court overturned a reform of the Catalan bylaws, which were approved by the Catalan government, approved in referendum by the Catalan population and Spanish premier Rodríguez Zapatero promised "backing" and passing the new Catalan bylaws at the Spanish Congress of Deputies. Just to mention the bylaws were voted in 2006 and the Constitutional Court needed only three years to rule against it.

Everything in order right? There must be something inconstitutional there, right? Well, let me break it down. The Spanish Consitutional Court is a puppet from the two main political parties in Spain. Its independence level is exactly zero, as judges are appointed by the government (currently the People's Party) and many judges simply carry (or carried) the PP affiliate's ID in their wallets.

That was the turning point for the movement for independence. I entered in my voting age in these three years of impasse and when I could vote, the generalized movement for independence was slowly brewing already, not anymore a strange minority out in the Catalan hinterland. I took part on that mock vote when it was held in my town moved not by the will for independence, but moved for the protest against a nation, Spain, where the separation of powers was in jeopardy. If we had only known...

Protest in 2010.

A lot has gone on in these seven years, probably the linked BBC timeline above will describe it better. Most of the things that happened were Catalonia trying to negociate with the central government (ruled still by the PP) during many times. Many more than I can remember, at least I remember these [link], [link]. Catalan officials dared to propose a higher degree of autonomy first, and a reform in the tax redistribution system, exactly the same territories like Navarre and the Basque Country have. Seven years in which I also grew to become a pro-independence citizen, separatist if you ask to me, tired of seeing there was no way out, no negociation possible with Spain. Me, as many supporters for independence, would have probably given up this feeling if a chartered tax system had been offered, or a higher degree of autonomy, or the full protection of some sensitive issues in Catalonia such as Catalan language or education system. But no. No. No. No. No and again no.

For many, the independence is the only way of going after repeatedly hitting a wall. The elected government, led by Artur Mas, tried finally to negociate a referendum with Spain. They failed, but organized a "consultation" anyways, known as the November 9th consultation. Artur Mas was convicted and barred off public office. The movement for independence reached a critical mass in the 2015 Catalan Parliament election, where two large parties went in coalition with a very clear item in their program: they would organize a referendum for independence. And they gained majority (72 out of 135 seats) despite the clear interference of Spain to avoid what the surveys were pointing at. 

Spoiler

I voted by mail on this election. Spain made sure of making the system complicated enough for voters in foreign countries to avoid people voting there. Writing what I had to do to vote in this particular election would be longer than this post itself. Why? Any survey shows that Catalans living abroad generally lean pro-independence.

These elected officials did in October 1st 2017 what they had promised. Organizing a referendum, which was plagued of problems because obviously it was blocked by Spain. And Spain's years long nosedive into anocracy reached its terminal velocity last September. Printing companies were raided without court orders. Plastic molding companies were threatened by high-ranking Spanish officials to be shut down if they took any order from Catalonia's government in regards to polls manfuacturing. Civil servants suspect of organizing the referendum were judged and put in prison in a matter of days. Two cruise ships, full of around 50,000 Spanish National Police and Civil Guards moored at the harbor in Barcelona, awaiting for orders. Let's remember the Civil Guard is a militarized police corps, à la French Gendarmerie or Italian Carabinieri.  The State was ready to crack down. The dogs in full riot gear were unleashed to try and stop the referendum in Barcelona streets in October 1st with the images we have all seen in TV. My colleagues, and probably many Simtropolites, think the movement for independence starts here.

October 1st changed many things. It was the first time I saw people taking active part in defending polling stations whom I would have never thought they would be movilized. 50-year-old friends' moms, retired teachers who are my parents' neighbors, teachers of mine... spent hours in foot, defending the polling station in case the dogs happened to be unleashed. I was at the polling station from 7 am to 12 am, waiting patiently for my chance. The elderly were let first. Many went on wheelchairs. Many could almost not walk. Some said out loud they did that "for their father, who couldn't see Franco dead". 30 km southwest, batons cracked the noses of hundreds of people. I guess I don't need to link the news here, you saw it in your local TV channel. 

OK, I'm getting tired of writing already. In one month, two activists, managers of cultural association Ómnium Cultural and pro-independence lobby Assamblea Nacional Catalana were incarcerated. They already spent two weeks in prison. Their felony? Organizing protests. And today, eight elected officials. Put into prison by political courts.

I could be writing all night if wanted, but this post is already long enough. I still have to mention the disgusting attitude of the European Union in regards to this crisis, the disgusting attitude of Spanish "media" (I'd call it propaganda means, will elaborate if someone asks), and the falsely equidistant attitude of many governments a few months ago we thought of as progressive, democratic and liberal. But yeah, Spanish republicans thought the same in 1931 and were left hanging up and dry against the fascists. Not surprising.

Now here I am. If you feel like, reply to the thread. Ask questions. Don't believe only what is up in CNN. As you can see, this is a especially sensitive topic for me and I'll not reply unless I fully feel like doing so and find myself in the appropriate state of mind to avoid saying things I don't want to.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

I believe Catalonia should become independent of Spain. I also believe Scotland and Northern Ireland should be independent of the UK and all be members of the EU. I also believe that if the Federal Government were to act against the interest of the West Coast as much as Spain did against Catalonia, the West Coast would also have good reason for independence.

 

The suffering endured by Catalans is intolerable. It’s comparable to police brutality in Venezuela except Catalonia is a wealthy, developed region and Venezuela is a failed state.

 

I believe the 21st Century will see many independence movements/civil wars (by different tribes stuck in the same national borders).

 

Catalonia is in a unique position where it likely has the power to successfully defend itself. However, It won’t gain international support until it wins independence. Civil disobedience, economic warfare (including 2-tier manufacturing where local products are top notch while catalan products for use in Spain are shoddy), and possibly some guerilla warfare will allow Catalonia to suffer less than Spain in the end.

[LexusInfernus 908]

On 2-11-2017 at 7:47 PM, OcramsRzr said:

The suffering endured by Catalans is intolerable. It’s comparable to police brutality in Venezuela except Catalonia is a wealthy, developed region and Venezuela is a failed state.

Really? 

One is a state that has slipped into a dictatorship and where lawlessness and corruption are the norm, the other is a wealthy region that basically is throwing a fit over having to pay for the poor people in other regions, and then organized an illegal referendum and made a mockery of democracy. Lets be clear here, comparing Venezuela and Catalonia is like comparing apples with cars, two completely different things. 

Spain has issues, no doubt. There is corruption, sure, and it still has issues from its past it needs to deal with. But its also a modern democracy, one where the rule of law is for the most part dominant. Catalans whining about the oppression from the Spanish national government is comparable to Americans whining about government tyranny because they can't buy a heavy machine gun without passing a background check. 

On 2-11-2017 at 7:47 PM, OcramsRzr said:

Catalonia is in a unique position where it likely has the power to successfully defend itself. However, It won’t gain international support until it wins independence. Civil disobedience, economic warfare (including 2-tier manufacturing where local products are top notch while catalan products for use in Spain are shoddy), and possibly some guerilla warfare will allow Catalonia to suffer less than Spain in the end.

Eh no it won't. Even if they win independence in the end, they will end up with a region that is economically deprived. Because businesses surprisingly don't like to settle in an active warzone and when the war is over, infrastructure is too damaged to be interesting to invest in. Look at the Balkans if you want to see what a fight for independence does to your economy. Also, ask them how they feel about their independence and if it was worth all the suffering and poverty. 

 

Lets be real here. Catalonia's claims for independence are stupid nonsense. Aside from its illegality, that referendum was a farce, and any claims of legitimacy based on that referendum are an insult to democracy. To claim that the people have spoken in favor of independence when only 40% has voted is a disgusting joke. Spain is absolutely right to go after the idiots that organized it and try them for treason, they absolutely deserve it. As for the Catalan people, are they really so gullible to buy all this independence nonsense as being little more than a cynical distraction by local politicians to get the voters to ignore their corruption? Sure, the Spanish government has corruption issues, but the Catalan regional government isn't any better. 

And Rajoy, shame on him. Both for letting it get this far, for botching the whole referendum business and for his unwillingness to find a more acceptable middle ground. He should have never send the police to try and stop the referendum. That move should have cost him his job for incompetence. And then the handling of the aftermath, for shame. I suspect his handling of this whole situation has also been little more than a distraction from his failing policies in Spain and the corruption within his own party. 

This whole situation is sad because it would have been so easy to avoid and only weakens Spain and Catalonia as a whole. No one wins from this except a few individual politicians pursuing their individual agenda's. To bad that now that peoples passions are so riled up, the people who profit from this disaster won't get caught. 

[TekindusT 3,809]

13 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

Spain has issues, no doubt. There is corruption, sure, and it still has issues from its past it needs to deal with. But its also a modern democracy, one where the rule of law is for the most part dominant. Catalans whining about the oppression from the Spanish national government is comparable to Americans whining about government tyranny because they can't buy a heavy machine gun without passing a background check. 

You have clearly not been following the news recently. And no, reading the online version of El País from time to time is not following the Spanish news.

The rule of law depends, in matters of freedom of speech, purely on a judiciary power working at the discretion of the central government. Otherwise, things like this, this and this are difficult to explain. Note that I've linked the news from another propaganda pamphlet which is El Mundo. Humorists, rappers and puppeteers tried in a matter of days. If you as a regular citizen have something to do in a courthouse, you can wait for years. Yes, in 2017. In the meantime, those who are ruling the country haven't stil been tried. Those who have been proven of being instrumental in corruption cases are still to be tried. Strange, right?

I also disagree in comparing Catalonia with Venezuela, but black is just a very dark shade of grey. And Spain's grey is darkening fast.

13 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

As for the Catalan people, are they really so gullible to buy all this independence nonsense as being little more than a cynical distraction by local politicians to get the voters to ignore their corruption? Sure, the Spanish government has corruption issues, but the Catalan regional government isn't any better. 

Many still haven't received the memo, perhaps that was the aim of opening this thread. Building a new country allows clearing the slate and purging the built-in corruption. Catalonia tried doing this during the last couple of years but guess what, corruption needs to be tried by Spanish institutions. And they are very happy delaying trials so the Catalan corrupts can get even more TV time and newspapers pages to make their readers buy the message that Catalonia has some rotten apples in their basket, meanwhile in the ruling party in Spain almost all apples are rotten. But these news are harder to find.

13 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

This whole situation is sad because it would have been so easy to avoid and only weakens Spain and Catalonia as a whole. No one wins from this except a few individual politicians pursuing their individual agenda's.

You mean the agenda they put up to a vote in 2015 and won majority in the Parliament.

13 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

And Rajoy, shame on him. Both for letting it get this far, for botching the whole referendum business and for his unwillingness to find a more acceptable middle ground. He should have never send the police to try and stop the referendum. That move should have cost him his job for incompetence. And then the handling of the aftermath, for shame. I suspect his handling of this whole situation has also been little more than a distraction from his failing policies in Spain and the corruption within his own party. 

Don't worry, PP wins votes with this in the next election. Most of their right-wing and far-right-wing voter base has doubts whether voting the PP or Ciudadanos because their program and beliefs is pretty much identical. But after these couple of months, the PP is now seen again as the heavy-handed authoritary nationalistic party they want to vote. Ciudadanos lost seats in a future Congress with what happened on October 1st.

And finally...

13 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

Catalonia's claims for independence are stupid nonsense.

Thanks for insulting my beliefs. That really makes for civilized conversation. Remind me not replying to any other more replies from you containing this kind of argumentation.

[_Michael 2,681]

I am a strong believer in self-determination; the principle of any group of people being able to freely decide to which nation they wish to belong to. In the context of the UK, I am a unionist. I support Northern Ireland and Scotland remaining in Britain, though I fully support any legal and agreed referendum to change either of that. in 2014, when Scotland did just that, there was not only a vote in the Scotish Parliament but a decision by the UK Government, and if remember correctly an Act of Parliament permitting the referendum. The referendum question, franchise and details of it were discussed and agreed on a national level; there was a 700-page white paper, detailing every intricacy of independence,  from the big things such as currency and EU membership, to whether they would keep the BBC and the Post Office. (The answer to both of those previous things were 'yes', in case you were wondering.) 

Catalonia did none of these, and yes I understand the constitution of Spain prohibits succession, and the situation is different, but nevertheless, the Catalonian administration are not whiter than white. The turnout of the referendum was only 43%, and yes I know the Spanish state did have some role to play in this, but the 2014 Scottish referendum was one of the highest turnouts in UK history, at 84.59%. No decision, be it regarding independence, an election or who pays for dinner on a night out, can be made when only 43% of those able to vote do so. And when a turnout like this 'mandates' a declaration of independence, no wonder no UN member recognises Catalonia as an independent state.

Catalonia, like Scotland, have valid and fundamental historical reasons and beliefs to be independent, so I think that @LexusInfernus is wrong there, however, any attempt for independence must be done so legally and with the co-operation of the parent state. Now is this likely, probably not, but Spain need to realise, the best way forward is to amend the constitution to allow an autonomous community to succeed; there needs to be dialogue, discussion and agreement; there needs to be a legal referendum held, where both sides can debate, and a full white-paper published. Only then can a consensus, a true consensus, be reached.

[LexusInfernus 908]

44 minutes ago, TekindusT said:

You have clearly not been following the news recently. And no, reading the online version of El País from time to time is not following the Spanish news.

The rule of law depends, in matters of freedom of speech, purely on a judiciary power working at the discretion of the central government. Otherwise, things like this, this and this are difficult to explain. Note that I've linked the news from another propaganda pamphlet which is El Mundo. Humorists, rappers and puppeteers tried in a matter of days. If you as a regular citizen have something to do in a courthouse, you can wait for years. Yes, in 2017. In the meantime, those who are ruling the country haven't stil been tried. Those who have been proven of being instrumental in corruption cases are still to be tried. Strange, right?

I also disagree in comparing Catalonia with Venezuela, but black is just a very dark shade of grey. And Spain's grey is darkening fast.

As I said, Spain has issues. But despite that, its still a functioning democracy based on the rule of law. Its not some third rate authoritarian autocracy, civil liberties are not at stake and its not slipping away into autocracy like Poland and Hungary are. Yes, there is corruption and yes that needs to be tackled. But Catalan independence is not a solution to that problem, despite of what some Catalan nationalists claim. It also means that Catalan nationalists cannot ignore the Spanish court when it says the referendum is illegal. Or well, they can pretend to ignore it, but no one else will accept that kind of logic. 

Quote

Many still haven't received the memo, perhaps that was the aim of opening this thread. Building a new country allows clearing the slate and purging the built-in corruption. Catalonia tried doing this during the last couple of years but guess what, corruption needs to be tried by Spanish institutions. And they are very happy delaying trials so the Catalan corrupts can get even more TV time and newspapers pages to make their readers buy the message that Catalonia has some rotten apples in their basket, meanwhile in the ruling party in Spain almost all apples are rotten. But these news are harder to find.

No it does not. It absolutely does not when that new country is being build by individuals who are as corrupt as their Spanish counterparts. Building a new country will only ensure that their corrupt interests will be safe guarded and ignored by the public who is to busy being fervently nationalistic. Nationalism like this tends to overrule logic and reason and shut down peoples ability to critically examine the situation in favor of blind patriotism. 

Let me be absolutely clear, Catalan independence will bring the average Catalan nothing but a fuzzy feeling for a few weeks. After that, they will find they are broke, bankrupt and poorer than they were before, while the same corrupt politicians are calling the shots and raking in the cash. They are selling you an air castle, a dream, an illusion and most of all, a lie. The average Catalan will not benefit from independence, the only ones benefiting will be the corrupt nationalist politicians.

Again, look to former Yugoslavia to see what awaits Catalonia if it becomes independent. 

Quote

Don't worry, PP wins votes with this in the next election. Most of their right-wing and far-right-wing voter base has doubts whether voting the PP or Ciudadanos because their program and beliefs is pretty much identical. But after these couple of months, the PP is now seen again as the heavy-handed authoritary nationalistic party they want to vote. Ciudadanos lost seats in a future Congress with what happened on October 1st.

And the rest of Spain will suffer from it as well. Short term benefits against long term severe losses. Again, the current course will only weaken everyone involved. 

Quote

And finally...

Thanks for insulting my beliefs. That really makes for civilized conversation. Remind me not replying to any other more replies from you containing this kind of argumentation.

I'm sorry but your beliefs clash with reality. That referendum was a farce by every objectively measurable standard. It was declared illegal by an internationally recognized and accepted court and only a minority showed up to vote. And while that minority voted for independence, they only represent about 36% of the Catalan population. If they want to base their revolution on what 36% of the people want and say its the will of the people, they are lying through their teeth and mocking real democracy in the process. 

 

Also, I fully agree with @_Michael in the sense that I believe Catalonia deserves more autonomy. But thats different from independence and it needs to be gained through negotiations and political compromise with Spain. In that sense, I criticize the fact that Spain did not do more to give Catalonia the promised autonomy and let it get scrapped by a Spanish court. 

[TekindusT 3,809]

1 hour ago, _Michael said:

Catalonia did none of these, and yes I understand the constitution of Spain prohibits succession, and the situation is different, but nevertheless, the Catalonian administration are not whiter than white. The turnout of the referendum was only 43%, and yes I know the Spanish state did have some role to play in this, but the 2014 Scottish referendum was one of the highest turnouts in UK history, at 84.59%. No decision, be it regarding independence, an election or who pays for dinner on a night out, can be made when only 43% of those able to vote do so. And when a turnout like this 'mandates' a declaration of independence, no wonder no UN member recognises Catalonia as an independent state.

1 hour ago, LexusInfernus said:

I'm sorry but your beliefs clash with reality. That referendum was a farce by every objectively measurable standard. It was declared illegal by an internationally recognized and accepted court and only a minority showed up to vote. And while that minority voted for independence, they only represent about 36% of the Catalan population. If they want to base their revolution on what 36% of the people want and say its the will of the people, they are lying through their teeth and mocking real democracy in the process. 

As previously said, the difference between the Scottish and the Catalan referendums was that one was legal and the other was not. That was the main argumentation exhibited by the voters on the "no" side. The vast majority just didn't turnout to vote in an illegal referendum. My dad didn't, he said "I'm not voting in an illegal thing". He's free to think so. But may I remind you that October 1st was the last resort after years of demanding a legal referendum, agreed between both parts. Do you think the organizers are happy, satisfied with how the referendum turned out? Of course every single "yes" voter wants a legal referendum. You can ask anyone, feel free to ask to any pro-independence person outside of ST. 

What would be ideal for everyone would be that Spain had done it the UK way and authorized it. After authorizing it, campaigning for the "no" option. They would have killed it. The "no" option would have won with around 60% of votes. PP and PSOE have millions of euros available to spend in campaigning (of course lent by banks whose board of directors is composed of former high-ranking PP and PSOE officials), they could have put a billboard in every wall in Catalonia if they wanted. But they didn't want. They have their own political motivations for that. If they block a legal referendum, always remember they did so for partisan reasons, not for what's best for Spain.

But if you want we can keep talking about legitimacy. A 90% "yes" over a 43% turnout means 38,7%. Ugh, such a small number... Anyone can see that's not a fully legitimate result. Well, PP is governing Spain with 33,4% over a 70% turnout. This is 23,3% of votes. Berlin is governed by a coalition, of which the most voted party received 21% of votes over a 66,9% turnout. This is 14% of votes. The argumentation over legitimate or unlegitimate governments and decisions can be spinned as much as anyone wants.

1 hour ago, LexusInfernus said:

Its not some third rate authoritarian autocracy, civil liberties are not at stake and its not slipping away into autocracy like Poland and Hungary are.

Civil liberties not at stake? Wait for it. It's already happening. That's a textbook example of the boiling frog parable. 

1 hour ago, LexusInfernus said:

No it does not. It absolutely does not when that new country is being build by individuals who are as corrupt as their Spanish counterparts. Building a new country will only ensure that their corrupt interests will be safe guarded and ignored by the public who is to busy being fervently nationalistic. Nationalism like this tends to overrule logic and reason and shut down peoples ability to critically examine the situation in favor of blind patriotism. 

Let me be absolutely clear, Catalan independence will bring the average Catalan nothing but a fuzzy feeling for a few weeks. After that, they will find they are broke, bankrupt and poorer than they were before, while the same corrupt politicians are calling the shots and raking in the cash. They are selling you an air castle, a dream, an illusion and most of all, a lie. The average Catalan will not benefit from independence, the only ones benefiting will be the corrupt nationalist politicians.

Well, you seem to have some super-human future foresaying capabilities without a doubt. But you know who is benefitting of Catalonia being part of Spain? Surely Catalans don't, no matter if they're in favor or against or they're right or left leaning. You're getting your heating turned out if you can't pay your bills in Winter, no matter if you're in favor or against. The trains running on state-owned tracks arrive late for those in favor and those against. A huge container terminal not connected to rails hurts the economies of those in favor and those against. An airport unable of receiving transcontinental flights because Madrid is blocking that hurts the economy of those in favor and those against. Having your financial matters handled from state servants who have never set a foot in Catalonia surely hurts those in favor and those against. You can Google all that.

It's not about nationalism, it's about a situation you know how is going to be if the status quo is maintained. It would be great though to see a list of those so corrupt politicians holding office at the moment, because the ones that were caught, they're not holding office anymore. Heck, their own party imploded because of that.

1 hour ago, LexusInfernus said:

Also, I fully agree with @_Michael in the sense that I believe Catalonia deserves more autonomy. But thats different from independence and it needs to be gained through negotiations and political compromise with Spain. In that sense, I criticize the fact that Spain did not do more to give Catalonia the promised autonomy and let it get scrapped by a Spanish court. 

Probably it's too late to back off from that for the parties ruling the country. As said, it's a matter of who's going to win and lose the next national election.

And now pardon me, I've got stuff to do.

[LexusInfernus 908]

38 minutes ago, TekindusT said:

What would be ideal for everyone would be that Spain had done it the UK way and authorized it. After authorizing it, campaigning for the "no" option. They would have killed it. The "no" option would have won with around 60% of votes. PP and PSOE have millions of euros available to spend in campaigning (of course lent by banks whose board of directors is composed of former high-ranking PP and PSOE officials), they could have put a billboard in every wall in Catalonia if they wanted. But they didn't want. They have their own political motivations for that. If they block a legal referendum, always remember they did so for partisan reasons, not for what's best for Spain.

'They' didn't block the referendum, a court did. Because the Spanish laws say you can't have a referendum about separatism. But sure, 'they' did what they did for their own political agendas and I criticize them for that. What they did was stupid, short sighted and weakens Spain as a whole. 

38 minutes ago, TekindusT said:

But if you want we can keep talking about legitimacy. A 90% "yes" over a 43% turnout means 38,7%. Ugh, such a small number... Anyone can see that's not a fully legitimate result. Well, PP is governing Spain with 33,4% over a 70% turnout. This is 23,3% of votes. Berlin is governed by a coalition, of which the most voted party received 21% of votes over a 66,9% turnout. This is 14% of votes. The argumentation over legitimate or unlegitimate governments and decisions can be spinned as much as anyone wants.

Governments aren't elected by a referendum and general elections aren't a yes or no question. On top of that, those governments are still part of coalitions meaning they aren't governing on their own. 

In either case, you do not proceed with such far reaching procedure as declaring yourself independent unless you have gotten an absolute majority of all the possible votes. 36 or 38%, its still a minority that voted for independence. Puigdemont knows did and he ignored it while simultaneously pretending that he got an overwhelming vote in favor of independence. He ignored  more than 60% of his constituents and as a result shown he cares as little about democracy as he accesses Spain of doing. 

38 minutes ago, TekindusT said:

Civil liberties not at stake? Wait for it. It's already happening. That's a textbook example of the boiling frog parable. 

Thats happening everywhere in Europe under the guise of increasing public security. Spain isn't really unique in this, though its good that such laws get taken to the European Courts. 

38 minutes ago, TekindusT said:

Well, you seem to have some super-human future foresaying capabilities without a doubt. But you know who is benefitting of Catalonia being part of Spain? Surely Catalans don't, no matter if they're in favor or against or they're right or left leaning. You're getting your heating turned out if you can't pay your bills in Winter, no matter if you're in favor or against. The trains running on state-owned tracks arrive late for those in favor and those against. A huge container terminal not connected to rails hurts the economies of those in favor and those against. An airport unable of receiving transcontinental flights because Madrid is blocking that hurts the economy of those in favor and those against. Having your financial matters handled from state servants who have never set a foot in Catalonia surely hurts those in favor and those against. You can Google all that.

A state build by corrupt politicians serving their own interests will inevitably turn out to be corrupt as well. Corruption breeds more corruption, independence does nothing to change that. Its only a chance for the corrupt to get an even bigger slice of the pie. 

And you think independence will magically make the trains run on time? Or prevent power companies from shutting down the heat on those who are late on their payments? Are Catalans really that naive? What do you think will happen if Catalonia presses on with this independence business against the wishes of Spain? Spain will have to escalate against Catalonia, the damage increases, a civil war erupts and the region gets devastated. Catalonia wins, but with most of its infrastructure damaged and most of its businesses moved out, its now a piss poor economically deprived region. It will take decades to rebuild. Or in a slightly more positive scenario, Spain is forced to accept Catalonia's independence but being angry over this block access to the EU and put import taxes on everything from Catalonia. Businesses still move away because they want access to the EU's internal market, leaving Catalonia still in poor shape. From being one of the richest areas in Spain, they go right to being poor. 

And when all the Catalans are poor because businesses have moved away, who will pay the utility bills? The government that is poor as well because no one can afford to pay taxes and everyone requires unemployment benefits? And will the trains run on time? I don't know, trains aren't run by the government and I think the average Catalan has bigger worries at that point. 

Catalonia is infinitely better off as part of Spain and pushing for more regional autonomy. 

[The British Sausage 5,449]

My take on this is that Catalonians either mobilise militia/guerilla forces and create their own police/army OR forget entirely this notion of an independent Catalonia. Reading the news the Catalonian government seems toothless, feeble and has no skin in the game.

The Spanish government isn't going to let Catalonia become an independent nation, the rest of the Spanish people (minus Catalonians) don't want Catalonia to split off. Which means democracy, referendums and talk will not achieve anything.

If you (TekindusT) want an independent Catalonia then violent revolution and civil war is the only option. The EU will side with the Spanish government as the EU wants Spain to stick together to stop the EU Government Debt Crisis flaring up again. So without violence and war there will never be an independent Catalonia

The idea being that after several years of fighting, a few hundred thousand dead bodies and many wrecked cities later, maybe then the Spanish government will give up. But Catalonia will just be devastated by such a war and I think very few people have the gumption to take up arms- they are not poor, there is safety and security and jobs. So why put it all at risk for a civil war?

So I think the dream/notion of independent Catalonia comes down to this: bloodshed or go home.

[Fantozzi 4,067]

Mostly I don't understand the catalan people, what they want. Do they want to be a part of europe, do they want to make revolution? I mean voting a parliament that has no power, no tools to settle pressure upon the central spanish gouvernement - what they did expect to happen? The people have the power but they delegated the revolution to some politicians that obviously had no power at all - what did they expect doing so?

Obviously the central spanish gouvernement thought we eliminate those politicians and see how the people react. Maybe me, I would have done the same - if my daughter decided to not listen anymore to my commands but sends her best friend to tell me because she haven't the courage to tell it to me herself - well most probably I would smile at her best friend and throw it out of my house and then have a serious talk with my daughter directly.

To me it seems absurd to ask for freedom but then asking trustees (politicians) to handle this. To me the catalan people send a bunch of puppets to war with the order 'make us free' -the puppets were imprisionedand now the people are angry like little childs whos toy was taken away by the fathers authority.

If this was to be a revolution of the people - to me it was a quite absurd one placing some funny politicians in the front line instead of someone who has the equipment to fight.

I can't remember Puigdemont assuring help from europe, searching for allies outside of Catalonia, searching for movements and supportes. He was a pawn in the game - he was send to the shambles by the people and he even knew it, I believe. 

I'm really disappointed by the catalan people - nor they stand united nor they raise voice themselve, they send some politcians, some parliament to do the job of freedom.

Where in history this did work? As long as the farmers dont turn their scythes into war axes - and not willing to do so and not in pain to do so - you build your revolutions on sand. If they are afraid of sheding their own blood but send politicians instead - they aren't made for freedom and better they obey.

 

Me, I would recommend to those who want change to read about the Swiss peasant war. In my opinion - this is your only choice, your only way.

And if you're afraid and don't believe and aren't able to do in a noticeable majority and by the peoples power itself - at least stop sending your puppets to the gallows. You just hurt yourself. Your pride, your believe.

 

My five cents.

[TekindusT 3,809]

22 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

And you think independence will magically make the trains run on time?

Not magic. It's called investing funds where they are needed. Read here, here and here. You might learn something new. You might learn that Barcelona's commuter rail network has two main track owners, Adif (Spain) and the Catalan government (FGC). Guess where the vast majority of service disruptions occur.

Trains were the first example. The list of matters where investment is lacking is long.

22 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

Or prevent power companies from shutting down the heat on those who are late on their payments?

For example, by trying to pass this law in the Catalan Parliament. Which of course, was blocked by the Spanish Constitutional Court. Actually, quite a few law projects were blocked by it. They're even listed on Wikipedia!

22 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

Spain will have to escalate against Catalonia, the damage increases, a civil war erupts and the region gets devastated. Catalonia wins, but with most of its infrastructure damaged and most of its businesses moved out, its now a piss poor economically deprived region. It will take decades to rebuild.

And I'm damn sure no one in Brussels will move a single finger to avoid this situation. Civil war in a European Union country? Nothing wrong with that. A country using the army against a part of its population, which has no army whatsoever? Sure, go for it. They'll look away the same way they did with the refugee crisis.

Perhaps Frau Merkel would end up having some conversation with the EU, concerned about how the DAX index is nosediving... BASF has a plant in Tarragona. Catalonia is a big market for Biesdorf and SAP. Lufthansa and its child companies fly to Barcelona, it is the 6th busiest route at Munich airport and the 19th busiest route at Frankfurt airport. DHL has a huge distribution platform near the airport. Seat is part of the Volkswagen Group...

22 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

Spain is forced to accept Catalonia's independence but being angry over this block access to the EU and put import taxes on everything from Catalonia.

Spain has an agenda but they're far from being idiots. Seat cars, Alstom trains, pizzas, and everything else you can imagine, is made in Catalonia using parts and raw materials produced all around Spain and the world. That would hurt business in Spain too and that's the last thing both Spain and the EU want. I'm already tired of linking news, so as said before, Google a bit before replicating what agenda-driven media tells you.

22 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

Catalonia is infinitely better off as part of Spain and pushing for more regional autonomy. 

That was the general state of mind in 2006. The push didn't work.

@The British Sausage, @Fantozzi war in 2017 Europe, such a beautiful sight. You talk about that as if you were talking about Call of Duty, as if Catalonia was the 3rd campaign scenario of the game. Well no, Catalonia is a real place, full with real people who would die in a war. Most of the population has never gone through compulsory military service as it was abolished in 2000 and in a country (Spain) with a very low gun ownership rate. And as said, the EU would be completely fine with that unless they realized economy would be hurt. Probably Germany would be fine with that too, according to the conversations I've been having with my coworkers lately. Remember, you'd have a territory torn by war at your doorstep. Just don't try to fly there to spend the holidays on the beach, there might be no hotels standing to stay in. 

17 hours ago, Fantozzi said:

Where in history this did work? As long as the farmers dont turn their scythes into war axes - and not willing to do so and not in pain to do so - you build your revolutions on sand. If they are afraid of sheding their own blood but send politicians instead - they aren't made for freedom and better they obey.

This happened already in the Reapers' War. The 1600s. And it didn't end well for those who revolted. I hope we have all evolved a little bit as species and as civilizations in order to avoid that happening again.

[The British Sausage 5,449]

14 minutes ago, TekindusT said:

@The British Sausage, @Fantozzi war in 2017 Europe, such a beautiful sight. You talk about that as if you were talking about Call of Duty, as if Catalonia was the 3rd campaign scenario of the game. Well no, Catalonia is a real place, full with real people who would die in a war. Most of the population has never gone through compulsory military service as it was abolished in 2000 and in a country (Spain) with a very low gun ownership rate. And as said, the EU would be completely fine with that unless they realized economy would be hurt. Probably Germany would be fine with that too, according to the conversations I've been having with my coworkers lately. Remember, you'd have a territory torn by war at your doorstep. Just don't try to fly there to spend the holidays on the beach, there might be no hotels standing to stay in. 

This happened already in the Reapers' War. The 1600s. And it didn't end well for those who revolted. I hope we have all evolved a little bit as species and as civilizations in order to avoid that happening again.

All I'm saying is that is war worth it to break free from Spain? If so many Catalonians are adamant about splitting from Spain and the Spanish government refuses to let this happen... War seems inevitable.

Also I'm certain the USA or Russia or China or Israel would be more than happy to provide arms to the Catalonians- that's what those nations do when they decide to help out a beleaguered state/faction: USA arming the Taliban in the 1980s, Russia arming the East Ukrainians today, Israel arming the Free Syrian Army, etc. All in the name of geopolitical leverage.

Look at the breakaway eastern Ukrainian regions today- it's a miserable stalemate. Or the troubles that plagued the Balkans in the 1990s.

I really don't see any other outcome if the Spanish government is adamant about keeping Catalonia in line and Catalonians are adamant about leaving Spain. Unless the EU intervenes... Perhaps (though they didn't seem to bat an eyelid when Spanish police were beating voters on mass a month ago!)...

Or it's going to be like Ireland- all the struggles, terrorism and troubles to break free from the UK.

In any case... Good luck.

[LexusInfernus 908]

35 minutes ago, TekindusT said:

Not magic. It's called investing funds where they are needed. Read here, here and here. You might learn something new. You might learn that Barcelona's commuter rail network has two main track owners, Adif (Spain) and the Catalan government (FGC). Guess where the vast majority of service disruptions occur.

Trains were the first example. The list of matters where investment is lacking is long.

The solution to lacking investments is not independence. Even if you gain autonomy over where to spend funds, its far more probable that at point the Catalan government is simply to poor to put meaningful investments in areas that need it. Independence is extremely expensive and economically devastating for break away regions. Historical examples are everywhere if you would care to look.  

35 minutes ago, TekindusT said:

For example, by trying to pass this law in the Catalan Parliament. Which of course, was blocked by the Spanish Constitutional Court. Actually, quite a few law projects were blocked by it. They're even listed on Wikipedia!

Sure, so you pass a law. You think those utility companies are going to provide their services for free? It costs money and that money needs to come from somewhere. And if the customer can't pay for it and the government doesn't allow the utilities to be shut off, the government will also be the one that can pick up the bill. Does the government have that money? When they also need to invest extra money in the long list of matters that also require investment, on top of all the other things a government has to pay for? And that in a situation where the local economy has crashed because you're not part of the EU anymore. 

Independence is not a panacea to every local problem you have. Its far more likely to make it more difficult to solve these issues. 

35 minutes ago, TekindusT said:

And I'm damn sure no one in Brussels will move a single finger to avoid this situation. Civil war in a European Union country? Nothing wrong with that. A country using the army against a part of its population, which has no army whatsoever? Sure, go for it. They'll look away the same way they did with the refugee crisis.

Right or wrong has little to do with it. The EU has no army nor is it likely to approve of member states invading another member state to interfere in a civil war.  

35 minutes ago, TekindusT said:

Perhaps Frau Merkel would end up having some conversation with the EU, concerned about how the DAX index is nosediving... BASF has a plant in Tarragona. Catalonia is a big market for Biesdorf and SAP. Lufthansa and its child companies fly to Barcelona, it is the 6th busiest route at Munich airport and the 19th busiest route at Frankfurt airport. DHL has a huge distribution platform near the airport. Seat is part of the Volkswagen Group...

Businesses will simply move away. They are not permanently tied to Catalonia. Sure, it will be annoying and cost money, but moving is still much simpler and cheaper than staying and having to deal with the fact that they are no longer inside the internal market. And tourism will get hit if Barcelona is no longer part of the EU and even more so if the situation escalates to something of a violent conflict. In any case, less flights to Barcelona. 

35 minutes ago, TekindusT said:

Spain has an agenda but they're far from being idiots. Seat cars, Alstom trains, pizzas, and everything else you can imagine, is made in Catalonia using parts and raw materials produced all around Spain and the world. That would hurt business in Spain too and that's the last thing both Spain and the EU want. I'm already tired of linking news, so as said before, Google a bit before replicating what agenda-driven media tells you.

Those businesses are far more likely to simply move to Spain. Sure, Spain gets hit, but Catalonia gets hit infinitely harder. And Spain has historically been against supporting break away regions and separatist movements. I find it highly unlikely that they will be fine with granting Catalonia access to the EU if it breaks away successfully. They are more likely to block every attempt to join on principle and out of spite. And the EU has so far made it pretty clear that they do not see a future for an independent Catalonia joining the EU as a member. 

So ignore all the signs of impending disaster at your own peril.

[The British Sausage 5,449]

Gotta agree with LexusInfernus here... Catalonia leaving Spain is going to hurt Catalonia far more than Spain.

Besides does Catalonia have any government to administer the region without the Spanish government being in control? No.

Does Catalonia have a central bank and a means of monetary creation? No.

Can Catalonia guarantee security and confidence for business? No.

Will Catalonia stay in the EU if it successfully breaks away from Spain? Not likely.

And, most importantly, does Catalonia have anyone to independently lead it- and who has influence, who hasn't been arrested for treason and who can't be cajoled by the Spanish government? No.

 

The Catalonia independence movement has ended with a pathetic whimper. I say pathetic because there seems to have been no thought given on what to do the moment the Catalonian government declared it was breaking free from Spain. Your leaders have been arrested, your government replaced and elections are forthcoming. And a very large minority of Catalonians want to stay in Spain! So it seems this whole Catalonian crisis is ebbing away.

Which is good because Europe doesn't need any more trouble at the moment, it needs stability and crisis-free years given the Great Recession, Euro Debt Crisis, Refugee Crisis and Brexit of the previous eight years. Catalonia upending the apple cart isn't doing anyone any favours.

Update: and this is pathetic- http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-05/ousted-catalan-leader-turns-himself-belgian-police