Looks like the Crown has been passed....

[Tarkus 6,933]

 700 million NAM road-pieces needed to make a semi-decent road network

I think that semi-decent is a good definition of the NAM...   Building a Stack highway interchange is nearly impossible with the NAM without using tunnels and elongated ramps and hairpin turns.  

That might have been true of older NAM versions, but we're still at it and headed in a radically different direction, of which the NAM 33 Pre-Release is a good snapshot.  We're in the process of killing most of the static puzzle pieces in favor of draggables and overrideable FLEX items, with the goal of drastically reducing the required menu options while also adding new functionality.  The new FLEXFly specifications have finally made it to fruition, along with multiple height levels of RHW, and one can build things much tighter.  Three-way T-interchanges are dialed in now, and stacks are becoming increasingly feasible.

-Tarkus

[chocolate_city 93]

 700 million NAM road-pieces needed to make a semi-decent road network

I think that semi-decent is a good definition of the NAM...   Building a Stack highway interchange is nearly impossible with the NAM without using tunnels and elongated ramps and hairpin turns.  

That might have been true of older NAM versions, but we're still at it and headed in a radically different direction, of which the NAM 33 Pre-Release is a good snapshot.  We're in the process of killing most of the static puzzle pieces in favor of draggables and overrideable FLEX items, with the goal of drastically reducing the required menu options while also adding new functionality.  The new FLEXFly specifications have finally made it to fruition, along with multiple height levels of RHW, and one can build things much tighter.  Three-way T-interchanges are dialed in now, and stacks are becoming increasingly feasible.

-Tarkus

I appreciate all the hard work that has gone into creating the NAM... its mind boggling... but I looked at all the info that goes into detail about what NAM33 will do, but saw only the flex-flyover that has been with the other past few incarnations.... I saw nothing that resembled a 4 level stack and no interchange between double deck networks... All which are possible with Cities Skyline... So unfortunately Sim City 4 stays on the backburner till I see different.  Thanks for the heads up, and the brief feeling of nostalgia

[rsc204 21,866]

Actually I was attempting to subvert my desire to get into this... but since you want to I'll elaborate.

The point is that the NAM is not merely highway stacking, there is so much more on offer. From base changes to the original networks with improved texture choice and functionality, through to entirely new networks and so much more besides. FLUPs, PedMalls, Viaducts, GLR, URail, RRW, simply too much to list.

Even within the RHW realm, you have the option of basic RHW-2 all the way to RHW-10 with many networks in-between, it's a massive undertaking to which summing it up with "semi-decent" really fails to do it justice or even IMO be respectful of it's accomplishments.

Now if you personally only care about stacking interchanges, if that's the killer feature for you, great, enjoy them. Personally though, I don't understand how that would be the defining characteristic that sways your decision one way or the other.

[Fantozzi 4,068]

The sheer amount of fan based mods is increasing daily...  The game looks exciting,... more exciting than Cities XXL ... All the right things are there... I even have the game.... but I still hate the highway system...  I'm patient.   Anyone else think that Sim City 4 has found its rightul heir...

it's fun to play a game. It's more fun to play different games. For me – the consumer – variety is much more important. than leadership. Leadership is important for the companies and dealers. Why should I choose between two games if I can buy both of them? Why should I play this OR that, if I can play this AND that. My harddrive is big enough. It's just that I'm short of money.

So give the crown to whom ever you like. For me - give me diversity, competition, the posibility to choose different things.

  Edited September 5, 2015 by fantozzi  

[idcaf 65]

since my comment seems to have provoked this NAM discussion I feel the need to elaborate myself a bit better. First of all, I respect and congratulate all the achievements that NAM team has done for a relatively modder-unfriendly game, the simcity 4. All respect to the creators, for hacking the game in a way that it seems to allow almost unbelievable amount of capabilities for improvement.

When i said that  700 million road pieces (figuratively) are needed to build a semi-decent road network, I somewhat wanted to diss myself actually. It really takes me more time than i'd ever be willing to admit to make just a simple RHW T-intersection or a road overpass for a diagonal road, etc... I easily get lost in the sea of pieces and variations, so making a semi-decent intersection is in my case very tedious and frustrating, because i make mistakes a lot and want to do it quick (which i can't), because i'm building a city, not playing an intersection-building game, requiring a lot of patience, that i quite frankly don't have to make something that even remotely looks presentable.

This is why I like cities skylines. It doesn't consume that much time for me, to create a costum irregular intersection. I either get the pre-made ones on workshop, or I make one myself in 50-100% less time than it would took me in SC4 for example with NAM.

[Vahr 343]

I have deleted a few posts that have strayed too far from the topic. Please remember to discuss the topic, not make snarky remarks at each other. There are more constructive ways to indicate displeasure.

[ghosty20 150]

Well either way I enjoy playing C:SL and that is all I have to say.  And hope others find the game fun too anyway, this will be my last post in this thread since I have nothing more to say on this, ciao..

  Edited September 5, 2015 by ghosty20  

[chocolate_city 93]

since my comment seems to have provoked this NAM discussion I feel the need to elaborate myself a bit better. First of all, I respect and congratulate all the achievements that NAM team has done for a relatively modder-unfriendly game, the simcity 4. All respect to the creators, for hacking the game in a way that it seems to allow almost unbelievable amount of capabilities for improvement.

When i said that  700 million road pieces (figuratively) are needed to build a semi-decent road network, I somewhat wanted to diss myself actually. It really takes me more time than i'd ever be willing to admit to make just a simple RHW T-intersection or a road overpass for a diagonal road, etc... I easily get lost in the sea of pieces and variations, so making a semi-decent intersection is in my case very tedious and frustrating, because i make mistakes a lot and want to do it quick (which i can't), because i'm building a city, not playing an intersection-building game, requiring a lot of patience, that i quite frankly don't have to make something that even remotely looks presentable.

This is why I like cities skylines. It doesn't consume that much time for me, to create a costum irregular intersection. I either get the pre-made ones on workshop, or I make one myself in 50-100% less time than it would took me in SC4 for example with NAM.

And I agree with you ninety-nine point nine percent... I still have Sim City 4 installation compressed on my computer and I have even downloaded the new NAM.. and further more apologize to anyone who felt slighted at recent remarks regarding the NAM...

Actually I was attempting to subvert my desire to get into this... but since you want to I'll elaborate.

The point is that the NAM is not merely highway stacking, there is so much more on offer. From base changes to the original networks with improved texture choice and functionality, through to entirely new networks and so much more besides. FLUPs, PedMalls, Viaducts, GLR, URail, RRW, simply too much to list.

Even within the RHW realm, you have the option of basic RHW-2 all the way to RHW-10 with many networks in-between, it's a massive undertaking to which summing it up with "semi-decent" really fails to do it justice or even IMO be respectful of it's accomplishments.

Now if you personally only care about stacking interchanges, if that's the killer feature for you, great, enjoy them. Personally though, I don't understand how that would be the defining characteristic that sways your decision one way or the other.

I think you've answered your own question,   keyword is personally.  I don't think that I've undermined the NAM in any way.

[Tarkus 6,933]

Taking this conversation as a friendly challenge, I did attempt a stack with the new components.  Stupidly, I did it rather close to the edge of a tile, so I wasn't able to finish up all the connections, but the main stacking bits are there.  The stack ramps going from the north-south freeway onto the east-west one can be built quite tight, but more room is required to do the ramps from the east-west onto the north-south.  This was about as tight as I was able to get it.  It's a huge improvement over what we previously had in SC4, but there's still things that could be improved in future NAM releases.  Also, there were exactly two standard puzzle pieces used in this interchange (the RHW-4-to-MIS transitions).  Everything else is built using draggable and FLEX components.

Once the diagonal height transitions are in place, the connecting ramp I have there in the northeast quadrant will be able to be made quite a bit more compact.  The stability for DxD crossings that the planned MetaRUL upgrades should add will allow us to enable the L3 and L4 FLEXFly, which should tighten the east-west crossing up considerably.  Stacks have been the "holy grail" for RHW development ever since the MIS scheme was hatched, so we will get there.  Once we get a good setup together, we'll probably even throw the combined stack fixings into a QuickChange setup.

-Tarkus

  Edited September 8, 2015 by Tarkus  
Fixed image

[chocolate_city 93]

Taking this conversation as a friendly challenge, I did attempt a stack with the new components.  Stupidly, I did it rather close to the edge of a tile, so I wasn't able to finish up all the connections, but the main stacking bits are there.  The stack ramps going from the north-south freeway onto the east-west one can be built quite tight, but more room is required to do the ramps from the east-west onto the north-south.  This was about as tight as I was able to get it.  It's a huge improvement over what we previously had in SC4, but there's still things that could be improved in future NAM releases.  Also, there were exactly two standard puzzle pieces used in this interchange (the RHW-4-to-MIS transitions).  Everything else is built using draggable and FLEX components.

 the diagonal height transitions are in place, the connecting ramp I have there in the northeast quadrant will be able to be made quite a bit more compact.  The stability for DxD crossings that the planned MetaRUL upgrades should add will allow us to enable the L3 and L4 FLEXFly, which should tighten the east-west crossing up considerably.  Stacks have been the "holy grail" for RHW development ever since the MIS scheme was hatched, so we will get there.  Once we get a good setup together, we'll probably even throw the combined stack fixings into a QuickChange setup.

-Tarkus

Thank you for your insightful demonstration and snideless response.  Coupled with the enormous amount of talent that NAM has and considering how far you've gone, I've no doubt the NAM "Holy Grail" is just an update away.. 

[chocolate_city 93]

Update.... finally got to make a fly-over ramp due to seeing some of the most complex interchanges done. Most of the prefab interchanges that are available on steam are just awful... but there are a few that look quite stunning.  It took nearly two hours to do my own interchange, has anyone else spent WAY TOO much time to create a simple interchange.... This game could use a road and limitation overhaul soon... I like what Rene has said in his topic and couldn't agree more.  Anyone else have any views on a Road Overhaul and limitations that haven't been covered...   Thanks

  Edited October 31, 2015 by chocolate_city  
bad grammar

[Roadman20 601]

If they could fix ramp angling, that is my biggest gripe on roadways at the moment.  I do all my own interchanges since I just like making complex, custom interchanges for my cities and most of the Steam Workshop interchanges are indeed quite bad.

 

[boformer 3,169]

If they could fix ramp angling, that is my biggest gripe on roadways at the moment.  I do all my own interchanges since I just like making complex, custom interchanges for my cities and most of the Steam Workshop interchanges are indeed quite bad.

 

What is the actual problem that the angle is always zero between 2 sections? That can be fixed with a mod (that I could make in the future).

[dedgren 830]

If they could fix ramp angling, that is my biggest gripe on roadways at the moment.  I do all my own interchanges since I just like making complex, custom interchanges for my cities and most of the Steam Workshop interchanges are indeed quite bad.

 

What is the actual problem that the angle is always zero between 2 sections? That can be fixed with a mod (that I could make in the future).

Wow!  That's the spirit.

It would also be great to lose most of the directional arrows and the gaps in the mainline lane striping too.  Everyone would be immensely in your debt, boformer.

As for the two games, well... New Shimmer is a floor wax and a dessert topping.  Nothing says SC4 and C:S can't both be great.

 

David

[boformer 3,169]

Wow!  That's the spirit.

It would also be great to lose most of the directional arrows and the gaps in the mainline lane striping too.  Everyone would be immensely in your debt, boformer.

As for the two games, well... New Shimmer is a floor wax and a dessert topping.  Nothing says SC4 and C:S can't both be great.

 

David

I can remove all highway arrows. But that would also remove arrows of intersections with normal roads. Same with street lights.

I could also remove only straight arrows.

  Edited October 27, 2015 by boformer  

[LivingInThePast 364]

I have to agree with some of the talk regarding intersections. A few months ago, I wrote similar sentiments in a review on my website (the "it's simply not possible" wasn't meant a challenge it was a personal resignation that I shouldn't get my hopes up).

The "Network Add-On Mod" is a feat of engineering, stretching the dirt road into a full new network with variable lanes (the "Real Highway Mod") and all sorts of other features, but, and I mean this without animosity or dismissal of the NAM team, it's really just hacked together components from what the game already provides, and there's still a lot of things that present impossible technical limitations. With the NAM, you can make complex, interesting, and functional intersections but I have yet to see one that can emulate, say, a five-level stacked interchange, and none of the interchanges look very dense. I'm not saying that they need to hurry and make one, because in my mind, it's simply not possible. I'm not saying that they need to hurry and make one, because they've said multiple times that such a thing wasn't feasible. They obviously have more experience in this sort of thing than I do, and I believe them.

 

 

When Cities Skylines makes a true 5-stack, like, say, this beauty found in Katy, Texas, with it being dense enough to mostly be centered over the existing highways and tall enough so that the cars really do look like they're flying 100 feet in the air, then I say, yes, the crown has passed.

 

 

 

[Koesj 659]

You rang?

 

 

That was made more than two months ago 

 

e: although I like my full-on custom effort in the lower left down here a bit better...

 

  Edited November 23, 2015 by Koesj  

[Roadman20 601]

The only limit on multi-level interchanges are pretty limited now, especially since sharp angles mod resolved the last major problem.  Other issues were fixed much earlier with no pillars and fine road heights.

https://imgur.com/92HnM2B

 

[dedgren 830]

 

Game over, man.  Game over.

 

David

[LivingInThePast 364]

 

Game over, man.  Game over.

 

David

Sweeeet. Someone has clearly been to Houston, right down to the attempts at a turnaround and yield lanes (which unfortunately manifests itself in the form of extra stoplights). Throw in some signage, new texturing, a filter, maybe a fix on the kind of weird way the upper ramps split in half, some building recreations, and some sort of first-person U-Drive-It type mod, and man, that'd be just be great.

Seriously, though, I am impressed.

[chocolate_city 93]

 

Game over, man.  Game over.

 

David

This is exactly the type of interchange I have been trying and dying to create, but please don't sit there and tell me that it was easy to do, and if so, you are a gentleman and a scholar...

[Koesj 659]

Well it wasn't easy the first time I created a stack interchange, which was in March, and done without any gee-whiz stuff like precision engineering:

 

 

But now with all the tools available to us I feel it's pretty easy. Well, if you limit your work to a symmetrical interchange that is

e: I did a quick and dirty video on how to approach building an interchange like the one above: https://youtu.be/yGMuwNxDi3s

Hopefully it's legible through all that 4x speed goodness.

  Edited December 5, 2015 by Koesj  

[chocolate_city 93]

One thing that's for sure with this game ,,, it certainly can't handle tons of mods and addons like Sim City 4...that kinda of another deal breaker for me.... I've installed a number of addons I've considered MUST HAVE and now the game refuses to load... I can remember having at least 10gbt of addons in Sim City 4 and even though it might've taken a long time to load... it still loaded... it seems now I'm going to have to empty out my addons in Cities Skyline and just install the essentials...OH well

[chocolate_city 93]

Has anyone played with the NAM 34..  I've read some headlines, but I haven't seen anything that makes me want to dig out SC4 ...

[jesper107 113]

On 12/24/2015 at 4:13 PM, chocolate_city said:

One thing that's for sure with this game ,,, it certainly can't handle tons of mods and addons like Sim City 4...that kinda of another deal breaker for me.... I've installed a number of addons I've considered MUST HAVE and now the game refuses to load... I can remember having at least 10gbt of addons in Sim City 4 and even though it might've taken a long time to load... it still loaded... it seems now I'm going to have to empty out my addons in Cities Skyline and just install the essentials...OH well

When I load in my map I use 10gig of ram. It still loads. If it crashes for you it probably has to do with incompatibility. Try using the Isolated Failures mod:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=505051010

[chocolate_city 93]

Thanks for the heads up jesper107, its been a few days now, and in that time my Windows 7 crashed, and its been a hellofa hellofa trying to get it re-installed... I'm going to try out that file you suggested...   Happy New Year

[hitzu 139]

On 05.12.2015 at 6:54 PM, Koesj said:

Well it wasn't easy the first time I created a stack interchange, which was in March, and done without any gee-whiz stuff like precision engineering:

 

 

But now with all the tools available to us I feel it's pretty easy. Well, if you limit your work to a symmetrical interchange that is

e: I did a quick and dirty video on how to approach building an interchange like the one above: https://youtu.be/yGMuwNxDi3s

Hopefully it's legible through all that 4x speed goodness.

Sorry for off-topic, But when I see such a smooth and beautiful interchange and there is a rail track near it going 30+ meters up so quickly, I'm almost crying >___< This brakes my heart –___–

[Koesj 659]

And so it broke mine, early last year! I never built a city on this map so I had to do quick hacks to get all the interregional traffic flowing again.

IIRC it was this test that put me on the path of compound curves though, i.e. curves where one end is longer than the other, so even in all its sloppiness I got something out of it. Incidentally that something was also stuff I'd never seen before in a citybuilder (putting us square back in sight of the original topic here).

[chocolate_city 93]

On 12/30/2015 at 5:23 AM, jesper107 said:

When I load in my map I use 10gig of ram. It still loads. If it crashes for you it probably has to do with incompatibility. Try using the Isolated Failures mod:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=505051010

Did you actually mean 10 gigs of RAM to run your game... that's a lot... but what I was referring to is 10 gigs of add-ons and mods...

[jesper107 113]

12 hours ago, chocolate_city said:

Did you actually mean 10 gigs of RAM to run your game... that's a lot... but what I was referring to is 10 gigs of add-ons and mods...

Right now I actually use 15 gigs of ram. I'm not technical at all, but my guess is the game loads EVERYTHING onto the RAM for quick access.