Feminism

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

And is there any more to say about feminism other than it has become rather tired and ragged due to all its hijackers?

[LexusInfernus 908]

And is there any more to say about feminism other than it has become rather tired and ragged due to all its hijackers?

Well, its not gotten tired or ragged because 'all those hijackers' pretty much exclusively exist in the minds of Feminism's detractors. You'll find that actual Feminism is nothing like what some people claim it is. 

 

And even if there was nothing left to say about Feminism, its no excuse to just go wildly off topic. 

[Fantozzi 4,067]

--- Deleted ---

[Fantozzi 4,067]

I swear this is no joke. Politicians of the provincial government of Nordrhein-Westfalen (northwest germany) claim a law for gender balance on german traffic lights (Todays News).

 

 

(Sorry only in german but with some pictures)

 

http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/ampel-gruene-und-spd-in-nrw-fordern-frauenquote-a-1002714.html

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

One can only hope that this is some sort of political gag.

 

However, think about this.

 

I've always admired Hildegard von Bingen as one of the leading lights of the Renaissance even though she was a couple of centuries before her time.  The others  are admirable if hidden, at times.  If the conjecture about Anna Magdalena Bach should turn out to be true there will indeed be repercussions down the centuries as many histories will have to be rewritten.  Wouldn't surprise me one bit.  Many women in that period were much more than acknowledged.

[Duke87 1,070]

Oh please. It could just as easily be counterargued that it is sexist to assume a silhouette is a man because it is wearing pants and not a dress.

 

Sadly, it is kind of impossible to create a stick figure that people won't assign an obvious gender to because we've been well trained by restroom signs to think an androgynous stick figure is a man and an androgynous stick figure in a dress is a woman.

[bitsaul 9]

 

I can tell you haven't really looked into the counter-arguments concerning that issue.  It is a well exposed fact that Sarkeesian is a scam artist and her ridiculous arguments about misogyny in the gaming community are downright inflammatory and sexist in addition to be absent of any evidence (aside from "evidence" that she was busted creating herself...Ooops!).  They are sufficiently dismantled by thousands of critics on hundreds of YT channels so I won't bother trying to unpack any of that here.

Yes, I've seen a lot of those videos 'dismantling' her arguments. Well, that is if you count piling fallacy after fallacy on top of each other as effectively dismantling something. Not to mention the fact that half of them mix their counter argument with misogyny and blind hatred for anything resembling Feminism, and deriding everyone who say she has a point as SJW's or White Knights (who are apparantly both worse than Nazis). 

 

But sure, there are also a bunch good critiques on her videos. But you'll find that all of those will at least concede that the gaming industry has a massive problem with female representation and that she has point, but simply goes to far in some of her assertions. Because honestly, the gaming industry HAS a problem with representing anything but straight white heterosexual men. 

 

 

I can only suggest you reflect on how it makes you react (aka your response in quote) when someone criticizes this label that you identify with.  I would think that kind of defensive reaction is proof enough that what I said about labels being divisive is quite valid.  It wastes time, as well.  I'll cite this thread as an example:  Rather than being engaged in conversation over an issue that you might consider important to women you are wasting effort defending a personal label.  You have to unpack your whole system of beliefs and try to validate why things should be viewed this way instead of how this other person calling themselves a feminist says.  There is very little agreement in the feminist community as to what being a feminist even means, so they all have to waste this same amount of time explaining themselves and why they are different and their version of feminism is valid.

*Ahem*

"It is a well exposed fact that Sarkeesian is a scam artist and her ridiculous arguments about misogyny in the gaming community are downright inflammatory and sexist"

Your words when someone attacked one of your favorite past times. You instantly accused that person of being a liar and fraud whose very words are insulting and sexist (because saying something else is sexist makes you the sexist, just like pointing out instances of racism means you played the race card which actually makes you the racist. Conservatives logic).  

 

So should we get rid of the label 'games' or 'gamer' as well then, because clearly those are also quite divisive (incidentally, when someone suggested that those labels were dead it sparked a massive controversy). 

 

In reality, every label acts divisively. Its what labels do, they split people into groups. Changing the name doesn't change any of that, even if you turned feminist into something else, like 'humanist' or 'equalist' the divisive element of the label remains. Furthermore, changing the label here just so mostly males feel more comfortable in a movement that has a big focus on advancing the position of women in society...well, that would send a message would it not? Again, women have to take a step back so males can feel more comfortable when the whole point is that society is already based on the idea of making life as comfortable for guys as possible. Youd basically be telling everyone that women can only speak out for themselves as long as they dont make guys to uncomfortable. 

 

 

There's just a billion reasons why it is divisive and unproductive depending on how honest you want to be in conversation...

It will cause people that have a bad view of feminism to instantly dislike you, which is unfair but also unavoidable.  Similarly, it may cause people to follow a cause that is invalid simply because someone labels it as a feminist one.  Do you want to engage with people that will criticize your bad ideas or do you want to surround yourself with people that will do anything in the name of your organization?

I hope you understand this is quite different from the theory of "Changing the name just to please the male demographic because they are uncomfortable with a movement that's calling out the traditional male privilege...".  It's a matter of clearing the space for dialogue.  We simply don't have the luxury to play teams if the human race is going to honestly discuss issues of great moral, social and ethical importance.  It served a purpose and got the ball rolling, but now we can evolve that conversation further and we don't need it anymore.  To use a metaphor, Feminism was the crowbar and it opened the door to a unlit room, however, if we are going to explore that space we do not need the crowbar any longer, now we need a flashlight.

 

People who have a bad view of feminism will also instantly dislike the next label we would come up with. To be honest, feminism is not about trying to get being liked by people who already have a bad view of us. Those people feel threatened because they are getting called out and they don't like that. Also, feminism is not an organization. Its a movement. 

 

If you really think that we dont have the luxury of playing teams, then why do you care about the name? It shouldn't matter right? 

 

As for your metaphor, I fail to see why feminism can't be that flashlight as well. Especially since 3rd wave feminism covers those needs quite nicely. 

 

I call her a scam artist, liar and and con artist because that is what she is, not because I dislike her... That's a red herring.  She scammed people of hundreds of thousands of dollars with her kickstarter video game series under the presupposition that she would use the money to create a video series exposing misogyny and sexism in the gaming industry.  She has not completed even a fraction of the project but now she wants MORE money.  What little bits of the project she has finished are laughable one moment outright horrifying the next.  Manufacturing her own video clips of her killing female NPCs and torturing and molesting their bodies and then pretending that it is the way the game is meant to be played.  Of course, she doesn't bother telling you she made all those sexist and misogynistic videos herself, she pretends she found them online or that it is just standard gameplay.

 

Anyways, I only brought her up to show a clear example of what the term "feminist" now means in minds of most of current generation.  I'll grant that is a totally unfair thing to happen but that IS the situation now.  Let's say I started an organization called "The Nazis" in 1850.  It is an organization dedicated to the improvement of all human conditions and for many years it is a respected and venerated organization.  Then Hitler comes along and hijacks the word "Nazi" turning the perception of the word Nazi into something horrifying and repulsive.  Should I continue to call myself a Nazi and spend the effort to explain to every person that I meet that Nazi doesn't really mean what they think it means, or do you think it might be more productive to simply tackle issues based on facts point by point by point without needing to resort to labeling that effort something like "Nazi progressivism".

As for ceasing to call people that play games "gamers" I fail to see any correlation to ceasing to call feminists "feminist".  Gaming is an activity whereas feminism is an idea set.  One is objective, one is subjective.  One is benign, other is proactive.  Do the words "Stamp collector" or "Train conductor" carry the same kind of implications that the words "Republican" or "Jihadist" carry?  Not being able to identify clear differences like these are at the root of the problem of what I argue against here.  Feminism will get in the way of your thinking clearly and unbiased about any issue because instead of being able to tackle the issue point for point you will chained to the wall of feminist ideals, which might not be correct in any case.  Always the need to defend.  I would argue that the word 'feminism' is as corrosive to any discussion as the word "chauvinism".  As a male who stands for equality among all and none sexes I would never consider calling myself a "chauvinist" and I don't see any benefit to any female doing the same.  Argue against that all you want but it won't make progress on any issue relevant to gender inequality.  Again, this thread is the clearest and most demonstrable example of just that... I'm wasting my time discussing a label instead of a gender issue.  We haven't even gotten to a gender issue because we can't get past your label.  I don't know how much more clearly I can explain it so I won't respond again.  This stuff has already been hashed out thoroughly across tens of thousands of other forums and social sites.  On to better things for both of us I hope.

  Edited November 16, 2014 by CaptCity  
Language - See the rules.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The depth of the walls of text on this subject indicate that there is yet more sophistry to come.  I frankly don't care.  Feminism is really now only an echo of its former self and the reverberations are being carried by people with private agendas who are simply using the tag for their own purposes.  Let the squeaky wheels run out of lubrication (press coverage) soon.

[LexusInfernus 908]

I call her a scam artist, liar and and con artist because that is what she is, not because I dislike her... That's a red herring.  She scammed people of hundreds of thousands of dollars with her kickstarter video game series under the presupposition that she would use the money to create a video series exposing misogyny and sexism in the gaming industry.  She has not completed even a fraction of the project but now she wants MORE money.  What little bits of the project she has finished are laughable one moment outright horrifying the next.  Manufacturing her own video clips of her killing female NPCs and torturing and molesting their bodies and then pretending that it is the way the game is meant to be played.  Of course, she doesn't bother telling you she made all those sexist and misogynistic videos herself, she pretends she found them online or that it is just standard gameplay.

Pretty sure she made several videos about that with that money. Just because you don't like whats in those video's doesn't mean she scammed people. And her videos hardly contain clips with her murdering or torturing female npc's and passing them off as standard gameplay. 

 

 

Anyways, I only brought her up to show a clear example of what the term "feminist" now means in minds of most of current generation.  I'll grant that is a totally unfair thing to happen but that IS the situation now.  Let's say I started an organization called "The Nazis" in 1850.  It is an organization dedicated to the improvement of all human conditions and for many years it is a respected and venerated organization.  Then Hitler comes along and hijacks the word "Nazi" turning the perception of the word Nazi into something horrifying and repulsive.  Should I continue to call myself a Nazi and spend the effort to explain to every person that I meet that Nazi doesn't really mean what they think it means, or do you think it might be more productive to simply tackle issues based on facts point by point by point without needing to resort to labeling that effort something like "Nazi progressivism".

 

Why is it unfair or horrible that Anita is linked to Feminism? She isn't doing the movement a disservice. All that happens is that a bunch of angry 'gamers' start foaming the moment they hear her name and that yeah, they are even less likely to identify as feminists. But they were already unlikely to identify as one and honestly if they can't look past one single person who is critiquing their favorite hobby I very much doubt Feminism misses out on much.

 

And seriously, you just compared people like Anita Sarkeesian, someone who critiques pop culture to the proverbial Hitler the guy who murdered millions of people and started a world war. Somehow I dont think that comparison really works.  

[MilitantRadical 2,844]

 

Some food for thought...

 

 

I also recommend everyone interested in this topic, whether they agree or disagree with Sommers, read Who Stole Feminism. The link is to the full book in PDF format.

The source of that video is junk. Shes from the most prominent conservative think tank in America. A group that is ideologically opposed to anything and anyone challenging the status quo is automatically gonna say that feminism is terrible for whatever reason. 

 

Ironically, she says that women in the US are some of the most liberated women in the world. That is true, but not thanks to her or the people shes working for. It are only conservatives that are behind the push for legislation against abortion and reproductive rights in general. Honestly, her employers are one of the most important reasons why Feminism is still around and desperately needed. 

 

And authors like Sommers are the number one reason why so many men think Feminism is just about hating males. They are representing the patriarchy at its most insidious form. A classic tactic, trying to turn around who is your friend and who is your foe. Ironic though how her book's subtitle is 'how women have betrayed women' with her being a women and all. 

 

Lol I should have placed bets on this being you're answer. How typical of a progressive automaton. Ever heard of association fallacy Lexus? You don't have an actual argument to counter what Sommers is saying so you just say "dur she works for conservative". Good one. Just because she works for a conservative organization doesn't invalidate her arguments.

 

Personally I hate a lot of what AEI has to say. I despise neo-cons and virtually everything they stand for, but upon evaluation of the facts Sommers presents I have to agree with her.

 

And yes there is a brand of feminism that really hates men. Ever read any Dworkin? Try Intercourse, enjoy.

 

Your problem is that you don't expose yourself to new ideas or counter arguments. You just sit in your echo chamber and dismiss anything that doesn't conform to your dogmatic political construct instead of having an open mind and evaluating evidence on its merits. Have fun being in intellectual stagnation for the rest of your life.

 

As an exercise you should read Who Stole Feminism or are you afraid that it might challenge your rigid beliefs? 

[cmdp123789 710]

 

I call her a scam artist, liar and and con artist because that is what she is, not because I dislike her... That's a red herring.  She scammed people of hundreds of thousands of dollars with her kickstarter video game series under the presupposition that she would use the money to create a video series exposing misogyny and sexism in the gaming industry.  She has not completed even a fraction of the project but now she wants MORE money.  What little bits of the project she has finished are laughable one moment outright horrifying the next.  Manufacturing her own video clips of her killing female NPCs and torturing and molesting their bodies and then pretending that it is the way the game is meant to be played.  Of course, she doesn't bother telling you she made all those sexist and misogynistic videos herself, she pretends she found them online or that it is just standard gameplay.

Pretty sure she made several videos about that with that money. Just because you don't like whats in those video's doesn't mean she scammed people. And her videos hardly contain clips with her murdering or torturing female npc's and passing them off as standard gameplay. 

 

 

Anyways, I only brought her up to show a clear example of what the term "feminist" now means in minds of most of current generation.  I'll grant that is a totally unfair thing to happen but that IS the situation now.  Let's say I started an organization called "The Nazis" in 1850.  It is an organization dedicated to the improvement of all human conditions and for many years it is a respected and venerated organization.  Then Hitler comes along and hijacks the word "Nazi" turning the perception of the word Nazi into something horrifying and repulsive.  Should I continue to call myself a Nazi and spend the effort to explain to every person that I meet that Nazi doesn't really mean what they think it means, or do you think it might be more productive to simply tackle issues based on facts point by point by point without needing to resort to labeling that effort something like "Nazi progressivism".

Why is it unfair or horrible that Anita is linked to Feminism? She isn't doing the movement a disservice. All that happens is that a bunch of angry 'gamers' start foaming the moment they hear her name and that yeah, they are even less likely to identify as feminists. But they were already unlikely to identify as one and honestly if they can't look past one single person who is critiquing their favorite hobby I very much doubt Feminism misses out on much.

 

And seriously, you just compared people like Anita Sarkeesian, someone who critiques pop culture to the proverbial Hitler the guy who murdered millions of people and started a world war. Somehow I dont think that comparison really works.

Alright guys... Let's keep it cool and remember, this isn't personal. Avoid getting caught in the heat of the moment, you can disagree with someone without having to take it personal. Also, try to stay on topic, without having to argue with side information, like actors, videos, pictures.. The original topic was set, and if you have anything to share, make sure it's constructive and not defying or with a wrong intention.

[Terring 6,473]

Feminism, another one ideology with a bad name because of some terrible minds. One week ago, a scientist was bullied because he wore a shirt with half-naked women on it, while doing a public conference about the scientific and historic achievement of touching a comet. Many "feminists", from the safety of Twitter of course, blamed him of sexism, to the point in which that scientist apologized lived on TV, breaking down in tears.

 

This is not feminism. This is bullying! Why nobody understands that the biggest enemies are (almost) always the biggest "supporters" as well?

And speaking about feminism, why nobody understands that men and women are indeed different? Yes, I said that. Men can do stuff that women can't and vice versa. However this is not an excuse for saying terrible things such as "women are slaves" or "all men are pigs". You can't totally equalize men with women, but you can build bridges between them. Enough with misogyny, enough with misandry. Hate and superstitions brings more problems than they "promise" to "solve".

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well said.  Et vive la difference.

[Thin White Duke 4,072]

What I've noticed much about both feminists and anti-feminists, is that both sides tend to bring up infinite loads of "scientific research studies", without actually backing up the facts. Googling through the deep layers of the internet, I found tens of blog entries and articles with words like 'scientific studies have shown...,' but nowhere does it say where the studies are from. There just isn't any evidence to back up the facts! 

 

I think feminism, as an ideology, is a good thing. The problem is the name it has. 'Feminism' is such a misleading word, and I am not surprised there are so many people who believe the definition of the term 'feminist' is "a person who is against the male gender.' It would be an easier thing to discuss if it was instead called 'equalism.'

[Duke87 1,070]

What I've noticed much about both feminists and anti-feminists, is that both sides tend to bring up infinite loads of "scientific research studies", without actually backing up the facts. Googling through the deep layers of the internet, I found tens of blog entries and articles with words like 'scientific studies have shown...,' but nowhere does it say where the studies are from. There just isn't any evidence to back up the facts!

 

Yes, well, merely asserting that you read a thing about it somewhere that was scientific is easy. Locating the citation is difficult and sometimes impossible.

 

It doesn't help, of course, that people's sources are usually second hand. Professional news articles on the internet are also very good at pointing to a study without providing a link to it, so they're not setting a good example either.

[Thin White Duke 4,072]

My point exactly. 

[KonstantinII 1,106]

All of this feminism stuff is just rubbish that needs to be tossed out the window.

 

Now that aside...

 

 

 

 

 

 

"What we are, is semi-civilized beasts - with baseball caps and automatic weapons."

 

 

 

What we currently are, is a Type 0 civilization.

 

This is what we should be, a Type I civilization.

 

 

 

That video proves both of our points, although it never mentioned civilization "types" like you posted. I'm glad you posted that video - good find. Watched the whole thing. I'd discuss it further, but our posts would get deleted since it is not on-topic.

 

And why do we need to vote anyway? Vote for the established system? So that is how your democracy functions?

 

I agree with you there. I've already gone deep into my views on voting in the American Politics thread.

 

 

Perhaps you will like this video too.

[Terring 6,473]

Don't derail the topic please. Open a new one to discuss how awesome is the Venus Project