Feminism

[Meg 368]

Telling people to check their privilege doesn't help because most people have no idea what privileges they have.

 

Here is a story making the rounds that illustrates something many guys don't stop to think about.

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

Telling people to check their privilege doesn't help because most people have no idea what privileges they have.

 

Here is a story making the rounds that illustrates something many guys don't stop to think about.

 

You know that kind of thinking is insane and bordering on paranoia. It's always thinking that the worse case scenario is always around the corner, yet never ever considering the probabilities and the real risks. Seriously if you feel that afraid it outwardly shows one way or another. If certain women really are afraid of rape, do they actually take any defensive measures: a small blade (legal length), pepper spray or something (again legal and discrete) to clobber an attacker with?

 

A good curse and the backed-up threat is enough to stop any jerk wanting to get physical, something which applies to men and women.

[MilitantRadical 2,844]

Telling people to check their privilege doesn't help because most people have no idea what privileges they have.

 

Here is a story making the rounds that illustrates something many guys don't stop to think about.

 

Great story that really puts things in perspective but I think it has certain anti-male subtext.

 

Rape is real, and of course women have to be alert, probably more alert than men, but the story in this tweet describes a kind of paranoia of men. As if rapists are around every corner. The idea that any man can be a rapist is a sexist idea. Guess what? Any woman could be a rapist too. Women rape, yes it happens; statistically nowhere near as frequently, but it does happen. I've see plenty of women on the streets who could physically overpower me - does that mean I'm looking over my shoulder all the time? No.

 

A boy has to deal with similar things, getting mugged, or beat up by a gang in a dark alley, or potentially being raped by either a stranger or someone they trust. I can't tell you how many men made passes at me when I was a boy in highschool - it was gross, but whatever. I didn't carry this fear around with me all the time. You learn how to avoid danger and to be alert when there might be danger.

 

There is always a bigger fish. Whether you are a man or a woman there is always someone out there who is physically stronger than you and could take advantage of you because of that.

 

The story also kind of neuroticises flirtation. What is wrong with making a pass? Sometimes that is just what you have to do. If you don't flirt with her how are you supposed to know if she likes you? Sometimes flirting is just about getting a conversation going. Sure, she can reject me, it might make her feel uncomfortable, but I can't hold back just because of that.

 

Homophobia is the fear of having homosexual desires or being homosexual which causes a deeply ingrained fear and hatred of homosexuals - it has nothing to do with fearing another man will treat you like a woman.

 

The statement: "treat you like a women" also implies that men inherently treat women negatively and that women don't make passes at men. It implies that flirting with a woman somehow puts them in a lower submissive position.

 

Although this story gives very good insight into the female perspective, it is also kind of, dare I say it, sexist.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

If a school uniform is optional no one except those forced to by their parents will wear one, which can result in bullying situations among both genders.

 

<snip>

 

 

If you believe that, I have some real estate in south Florida I might be able to interest you in.

[Meg 368]

 

Telling people to check their privilege doesn't help because most people have no idea what privileges they have.

 

Here is a story making the rounds that illustrates something many guys don't stop to think about.

 

You know that kind of thinking is insane and bordering on paranoia. It's always thinking that the worse case scenario is always around the corner, yet never ever considering the probabilities and the real risks.

 

You're missing the point.  Women have been taught since they were teenagers to be aware, be alert, be vigilant.  Don't put yourself in any situations that might be dangerous.  If you find yourself in one, be on guard until you can get to safety.

 

No, not all men are "like that".   But it is like looking at a bowl of M&Ms and being told: "don't worry, only 10% of them are poisonous.  No need to approach all of them with caution."   How do you know which 10%?

 

This might be insane and bordering on paranoia but it's how we have to approach things.  This is what I mean by check your privilege.  This approach to life is foreign and crazy to you.   It is reality for many of us.  Must be nice not to have to live that way.

 

 

 

If certain women really are afraid of rape, do they actually take any defensive measures: a small blade (legal length), pepper spray or something (again legal and discrete) to clobber an attacker with?

 

Many women do.  Problem is, most weapons can be turned against them so carrying them is of questionable value.

 

 

A good curse and the backed-up threat is enough to stop any jerk wanting to get physical, something which applies to men and women.

 

Ah, if only that were true.    Again, it must be nice to live in that world.

[MilitantRadical 2,844]

 

 

Telling people to check their privilege doesn't help because most people have no idea what privileges they have.

 

Here is a story making the rounds that illustrates something many guys don't stop to think about.

 

You know that kind of thinking is insane and bordering on paranoia. It's always thinking that the worse case scenario is always around the corner, yet never ever considering the probabilities and the real risks.

 

You're missing the point.  Women have been taught since they were teenagers to be aware, be alert, be vigilant.  Don't put yourself in any situations that might be dangerous.  If you find yourself in one, be on guard until you can get to safety.

 

No, not all men are "like that".   But it is like looking at a bowl of M&Ms and being told: "don't worry, only 10% of them are poisonous.  No need to approach all of them with caution."   How do you know which 10%?

 

This might be insane and bordering on paranoia but it's how we have to approach things.  This is what I mean by check your privilege.  This approach to life is foreign and crazy to you.   It is reality for many of us.  Must be nice not to have to live that way.

 

But Meg, boys are also taught this too. "Be alert, be vigilant. There are predators out there. There are people who want to do bad things to you." There is a difference between being rationally conscious of potential danger and being paranoid. I don't think your M&M comparison is apt. 10% of M&Ms in a bowl of M&Ms? That is a ridiculously high number.

 

This quote from Camille Paglia puts it very well:

 

    " It’s ridiculous … This obsession with rape [in North America] is neurotic. There are attacks on men also. This privileging of the female victim is a distortion. To see the world in terms of rape is absurd. Throughout history there have been atrocities of every kind. Throughout history honourable men don’t rape."

 

    [...]

 

    "You can try to teach people to make ethical judgments. Telling a rapist not to rape? [Laughs] A liberal ideology is out there that people are basically good. It’s a bourgeois version of reality—this idea that the whole world should be like a bourgeois living room and anyone who doesn’t belong, you can retrain. No you can’t! I was raised in the Italian working-class way, which is “watch out!” The world is a dangerous place. It’s up to you to protect yourself, not just from rape, but from anything. The lack of imagination for criminality amazes me. There are people who are evil. The problem here is the inability of women to project themselves into the minds of men. Feminists say [proper, mocking tone] “women have the right to do whatever they want.” Of course we have the right to do whatever we want–to be jogging with earphones on. Yes you have the right to but it’s also stupid! I see with the eyes of the criminal. I must have a criminal mind."

[krbe 193]

Norwegian statistics tells me that 58% of victims of violence are men. The 42% women include those victims for the types of violence that "only" women experience all the time. Yet I have supposedly nothing to fear in my life.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Statistics are always misleading.  Assaults, physical or sexual, are not often reported.  Many victims are too disturbed or ashamed or depressed to report such things.  And, of course, in any big city if any person of either sex reports a rape to the police, it becomes a burden to prove it occurred.  With women it is possible to get a rape kit, which will be negative if the assailant used a condom.

 

The whole western attitude towards sex is disgusting.  Sex should be looked at a a good, and not some furtive pleasure that is somehow illicit.  Thanks a lot, puritan forebears.

[Duke87 1,070]

Norwegian statistics tells me that 58% of victims of violence are men. The 42% women include those victims for the types of violence that "only" women experience all the time. Yet I have supposedly nothing to fear in my life.

 

Define "violence". Does that include gang violence, which generally only men partake in but generally isn't a threat to you if you aren't part of a gang? If so, it skews things.

 

When it comes to privilege you have to worry not only about overall violence but about what type of violence it is and how easy it is for the would-be victim to avoid it. Generally, I would think, women are more likely to be completely innocent victims of violence, where as men who are victims of violence are more often victims because of fighting, provocation, or some situation that they made a deliberate choice to put themselves in.

 

Anecdotally speaking, I went to college at a school of 3000 or so students in an urban area which is not a "bad" neighborhood but is still part of "the big city" and thus is a place where stuff will happen. A few times a year there would be a story about a mugging or attempted mugging of a student near campus. Three things these incidents all had in common:

1) All happened late at night

2) All of the victims were alone

3) All but one of the victims were female

 

Point number 3 is what touches on the "male privilege" aspect here. Muggers, like all predators, intentionally target prey that they think will be the weakest and easiest to take down. Since women naturally have less physical strength than men, they are more likely targets. This is why women worry about walking down streets that men look at and say "what's the big deal?". It's not just perception, men are actually at a lesser risk in that situation by virtue of being men.

 

Now, this particular disparity arises because of biology, not because of social norms, so it's difficult to legitimately imagine a society without it unless it is a society with low crime in general.

 

But at the very least, being aware of it and appreciating it puts us in a position to take steps to address it. Steps which can simply involve making some safety measures available and redesigning places to remove opportunities for nefarious activity... and not dismissing these things as unimportant because "well I've never felt threatened walking there".

[Motina 77]

Telling people to check their privilege doesn't help because most people have no idea what privileges they have.

 

Here is a story making the rounds that illustrates something many guys don't stop to think about.

 

It does not matter if people have an idea of what privileges they have. Telling people to check their privilege doesn't help because it is nothing but an ad hominem coupled with argumentum ad verecundiam. With the feminist concept of kyriarchy it calls into question all groups. For kyriarchy, all individuals oppress and are oppressed simultaneously. Because of the fallaciousness of "check you privilege" it is always best to ignore divisive terms. Every individual faces different hardships and struggles in their life that no one else is able to understand.

[Motina 77]

Muggers, like all predators, intentionally target prey that they think will be the weakest and easiest to take down. Since women naturally have less physical strength than men, they are more likely targets. This is why women worry about walking down streets that men look at and say "what's the big deal?". It's not just perception, men are actually at a lesser risk in that situation by virtue of being men.

 

StatsCan suggests it is men who are at more risk of getting mugged:

 

In 2008, males accounted for 65% of robbery victims.

 

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85f0033m/2010024/part-partie1-eng.htm 

 

For other violent crimes, women for the most part know their violent offender.

[Meg 368]

 

But Meg, boys are also taught this too. "Be alert, be vigilant. There are predators out there. There are people who want to do bad things to you."

 

 

That is excellent.   Back when I was a kid, boys were not taught that.  The idea that boys could be prey was not in the public consciousness.  

 

In the pre-teenage years, boys are statistically more at risk than girls.   That evens out during the teenage years.  As adults, men tend to believe that they can physically handle whatever comes along.  Women know that they can't, not in every situation.

 

 Feminists say [proper, mocking tone] “women have the right to do whatever they want.” Of course we have the right to do whatever we want–to be jogging with earphones on. Yes you have the right to but it’s also stupid! I see with the eyes of the criminal. I must have a criminal mind."

 

 

I agree: it's stupid.   That is the point.  There are many things that are stupid for women to do that are not stupid for men to do.   Men have the privilege of jogging with earphones on.  Women don't.

 

A young man I know (I think he is 23) recently asked me if I had seen the pond along the bike trail.   He says it looks awesome in moon light.   I asked where it is.  Well, to get there you need to take the bike trail under the railroad bridge, then ride about 2 miles into the woods to get to the clearing with the pond.

 

I told him it was a bad idea for me to do that.  He looked totally blank and asked why.  Then he figured it out.  It didn't occur to him that seeing this place in moonlight was something that not all of us can do.

 

Point number 3 is what touches on the "male privilege" aspect here. Muggers, like all predators, intentionally target prey that they think will be the weakest and easiest to take down. Since women naturally have less physical strength than men, they are more likely targets. This is why women worry about walking down streets that men look at and say "what's the big deal?". It's not just perception, men are actually at a lesser risk in that situation by virtue of being men.

 

Now, this particular disparity arises because of biology, not because of social norms, so it's difficult to legitimately imagine a society without it unless it is a society with low crime in general.

 

But at the very least, being aware of it and appreciating it puts us in a position to take steps to address it. Steps which can simply involve making some safety measures available and redesigning places to remove opportunities for nefarious activity... and not dismissing these things as unimportant because "well I've never felt threatened walking there".

 

 

Thank you, Duke.  That is what I was trying to say.

[krbe 193]

Define "violence". Does that include gang violence, which generally only men partake in but generally isn't a threat to you if you aren't part of a gang? If so, it skews things.

 

It covers all registered incidents under offences against the person chapter in the Penal Code, so obviously the numbers are skewed and misleading. The type of violence is everything from spitting at someone to murder, from feeling someone up to rape. There are for example several incidents lacking from the male section, because I did not report them. 

 

But at the very least, being aware of it and appreciating it puts us in a position to take steps to address it. Steps which can simply involve making some safety measures available and redesigning places to remove opportunities for nefarious activity... and not dismissing these things as unimportant because "well I've never felt threatened walking there".

Lights. Do not be drunk. Don't walk alone in desolate streets. Do not display wealth. Same rules that applies everywhere. Unfortunately, for some, "security" seems to be a dirty word when it comes to women, "because they should be able to walk down the street naked." There are many things one should be entitled to, but just because something is illegal doesn't mean that you're protect (or even should feel violated because of that). You still lock your door and cover your PIN.

[LexusInfernus 908]

But Meg, boys are also taught this too. "Be alert, be vigilant. There are predators out there. There are people who want to do bad things to you." There is a difference between being rationally conscious of potential danger and being paranoid. I don't think your M&M comparison is apt. 10% of M&Ms in a bowl of M&Ms? That is a ridiculously high number.

You think 10% is a high number? I think its a pretty low number actually, when you consider 1 in 5 women openly admit to being a victim of sexual assault. 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/health/nearly-1-in-5-women-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html?_r=0

 

And those are the people who dare to come forward about it. I bet the actual number is higher but that the victims are to afraid or ashamed to admit it. 

 

This quote from Camille Paglia puts it very well:

 

    " It’s ridiculous … This obsession with rape [in North America] is neurotic. There are attacks on men also. This privileging of the female victim is a distortion. To see the world in terms of rape is absurd. Throughout history there have been atrocities of every kind. Throughout history honourable men don’t rape."

 

And there you go, making it about you. Yes, guys get raped, and that is terrible, yes, women rape as well and it is wrong. But the simple fact is that women are FAR FAR more likely to be the victim of sexual assault than men. Its like we are discussing the ordeal of someone who lost a limb and then someone starts about how it is when he cut his finger with a knife while cooking. Yeah sure, it hurts, but you do not get to claim that you are a victim of equal proportion as someone who lost a limb. 

 

 

  [...]

 

    "You can try to teach people to make ethical judgments. Telling a rapist not to rape? [Laughs] A liberal ideology is out there that people are basically good. It’s a bourgeois version of reality—this idea that the whole world should be like a bourgeois living room and anyone who doesn’t belong, you can retrain. No you can’t! I was raised in the Italian working-class way, which is “watch out!” The world is a dangerous place. It’s up to you to protect yourself, not just from rape, but from anything. The lack of imagination for criminality amazes me. There are people who are evil. The problem here is the inability of women to project themselves into the minds of men. Feminists say [proper, mocking tone] “women have the right to do whatever they want.” Of course we have the right to do whatever we want–to be jogging with earphones on. Yes you have the right to but it’s also stupid! I see with the eyes of the criminal. I must have a criminal mind."

 

And now we got the victim blaming. Sure, go jogging with earplugs on, but if you get raped its your own fault because you weren't paying attention, and wearing those yoga pants, no wonder some guy felt the need to attack you. 

 

These kind of arguments are unconstructive for two reasons. For one, a guy can safely go jogging with headphones on and never fear getting attacked. Women can't. By saying this you are essentially saying that 'meh. Its life'. The argument accepts that this is reality but makes absolutely no effort to change this. Why should we not strive for a world where everyone can go out jogging with earplugs in and feel comfortable and safe while doing so. 

Second, this argument is also harmful to guys, essentially saying that men will be men and it is somehow in the nature of men to rape. No its not. Yeah, perhaps for a few sicko's it is in their nature to rape, just like for a few sickos it is in their nature to kill. But sicko's are the exception, not the rule. So we need to talk with the non sickos, the vast majority of the people who have a moral compass but who currently hold some very disturbing and destructive attitudes towards women and sex. People like that Elliot Rodger kid and his InCel and PUAhate friends. Or people who do not understand what consensual sex means. Most of those people do not want to rape because that turns them on, they just think that what they are doing is not rape. Those people can be reasoned with and they can be educated. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

<snip>

 

A young man I know (I think he is 23) recently asked me if I had seen the pond along the bike trail.   He says it looks awesome in moon light.   I asked where it is.  Well, to get there you need to take the bike trail under the railroad bridge, then ride about 2 miles into the woods to get to the clearing with the pond.

 

I told him it was a bad idea for me to do that.  He looked totally blank and asked why.  Then he figured it out.  It didn't occur to him that seeing this place in moonlight was something that not all of us can do.

<snip>

Sure you can.  Just don't go alone.  Sometimes experiences require a cohort.

[MilitantRadical 2,844]

 

But Meg, boys are also taught this too. "Be alert, be vigilant. There are predators out there. There are people who want to do bad things to you." There is a difference between being rationally conscious of potential danger and being paranoid. I don't think your M&M comparison is apt. 10% of M&Ms in a bowl of M&Ms? That is a ridiculously high number.

You think 10% is a high number? I think its a pretty low number actually, when you consider 1 in 5 women openly admit to being a victim of sexual assault. 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/health/nearly-1-in-5-women-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html?_r=0

 

And those are the people who dare to come forward about it. I bet the actual number is higher but that the victims are to afraid or ashamed to admit it. 

 

This quote from Camille Paglia puts it very well:

 

    " It’s ridiculous … This obsession with rape [in North America] is neurotic. There are attacks on men also. This privileging of the female victim is a distortion. To see the world in terms of rape is absurd. Throughout history there have been atrocities of every kind. Throughout history honourable men don’t rape."

 

And there you go, making it about you. Yes, guys get raped, and that is terrible, yes, women rape as well and it is wrong. But the simple fact is that women are FAR FAR more likely to be the victim of sexual assault than men. Its like we are discussing the ordeal of someone who lost a limb and then someone starts about how it is when he cut his finger with a knife while cooking. Yeah sure, it hurts, but you do not get to claim that you are a victim of equal proportion as someone who lost a limb. 

 

 

  [...]

 

    "You can try to teach people to make ethical judgments. Telling a rapist not to rape? [Laughs] A liberal ideology is out there that people are basically good. It’s a bourgeois version of reality—this idea that the whole world should be like a bourgeois living room and anyone who doesn’t belong, you can retrain. No you can’t! I was raised in the Italian working-class way, which is “watch out!” The world is a dangerous place. It’s up to you to protect yourself, not just from rape, but from anything. The lack of imagination for criminality amazes me. There are people who are evil. The problem here is the inability of women to project themselves into the minds of men. Feminists say [proper, mocking tone] “women have the right to do whatever they want.” Of course we have the right to do whatever we want–to be jogging with earphones on. Yes you have the right to but it’s also stupid! I see with the eyes of the criminal. I must have a criminal mind."

 

And now we got the victim blaming. Sure, go jogging with earplugs on, but if you get raped its your own fault because you weren't paying attention, and wearing those yoga pants, no wonder some guy felt the need to attack you. 

 

These kind of arguments are unconstructive for two reasons. For one, a guy can safely go jogging with headphones on and never fear getting attacked. Women can't. By saying this you are essentially saying that 'meh. Its life'. The argument accepts that this is reality but makes absolutely no effort to change this. Why should we not strive for a world where everyone can go out jogging with earplugs in and feel comfortable and safe while doing so. 

Second, this argument is also harmful to guys, essentially saying that men will be men and it is somehow in the nature of men to rape. No its not. Yeah, perhaps for a few sicko's it is in their nature to rape, just like for a few sickos it is in their nature to kill. But sicko's are the exception, not the rule. So we need to talk with the non sickos, the vast majority of the people who have a moral compass but who currently hold some very disturbing and destructive attitudes towards women and sex. People like that Elliot Rodger kid and his InCel and PUAhate friends. Or people who do not understand what consensual sex means. Most of those people do not want to rape because that turns them on, they just think that what they are doing is not rape. Those people can be reasoned with and they can be educated. 

 

 

Statistics like 1-in-5 women are sexual assault victims do not mean very much when there is no uniformly accepted definition of sexual assault or the definition is subject to such a wide range of interpretations. Short of jailing most college boys for grinding on their female counterparts at frat parties, or placing every other guy looking for a one night stand at the bar in prison with actual serial rapists, how can we expect to suppress every manifestation of the need to satisfy our most powerful and deep-seated urges? Going beyond the simplistic response of “all acts of sexual impropriety are wrong, so no one should ever do them,” any practical solution involves making rigorous distinction between the many forms of sexual impropriety, determining which of these are criminal, and creating and enforcing laws whose severity is proportionate to that of the offenses. No such solution to the problem of sexual assault in America currently exists in part due to ambiguities and distortions perpetuated by reports designed to maximize shock value.

 

Also, the article you pointed to states that "one in seven men have experienced severe violence at the hands of an intimate partner, the survey found, and one in 71 men — between 1 percent and 2 percent — have been raped, many when they were younger than 11."

 

You say: "a guy can safely go jogging with headphones on and never fear getting attacked." I say bologna! Plenty of male joggers have been attacked, mugged, even raped.

 

You ask: Why should we not strive for a world where everyone can go out jogging with earplugs in and feel comfortable and safe while doing so? Yes that would be super nice and we should strive for that, but part of you has to be a bit realistic. A perfect world is a utopian fantasy, it will never happen. Women will unfortunately always be in more sexual danger than men.

 

Of course we want to change reality and make the world a better and safer place for men and women, but there is only so much you can do. There are certain parts of human nature that cannot be erased - I'm sorry.

 

Yes the stats on rape are higher for women and that is terrible, I'm not trying to argue that. I'm just trying to say that women shouldn't be paranoid of rape around every corner in the way Meg was describing it. They should be aware of the danger, but not paranoid. Also, women do have to accept the danger as part of life. Danger is a part of life - anything can happen to you, man or woman.

  Edited June 6, 2014 by CaptCity  
Language

[Fatherted 129]

Perhaps our view of "Sexual Harrassment" is different. A few dirty words and some unsavoury gestures are not sexual harassment in my book, as there is nothing actually sexual happening. Yes, they are rude and offensive, but not harassment. A man will likely never report something like this. A woman may or may not depending on how harsh it is and if they are so inclined.

 

Don't take this as justification, it's still messed up and ultimately wrong. But some girls consider a flirt and a pass harassment, and that is NOT right. Otherwise, we would all be alone all our lives.

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

Perhaps our view of "Sexual Harrassment" is different. A few dirty words and some unsavoury gestures are not sexual harassment in my book, as there is nothing actually sexual happening. Yes, they are rude and offensive, but not harassment. A man will likely never report something like this. A woman may or may not depending on how harsh it is and if they are so inclined.

I think this particularly depends on frequency. Sure a one time comment may not be particularly damaging, but if someone repeatedly makes snide/rude comments at a person, than it can be as damaging if not worse, than an instance of inappropriate contact.

That being said, sexual harassment can be simply harassment of a sexual nature. It falls in the hands of being serious in that it should not be tolerated, but at the same time not serious in the sense that it seldom happens or is a particularly "special" case when it does.

As for a man never reporting it? If I was sexually harassed by either a man or a woman, whether it be inappropriate physical actions or simply words, I would be reporting it.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Things in general have gone to hell since I was a kid.  There was a time when people respected each other.  This seems to have died sometime in the late 1960s and has grown worse ever since. 

 

I think one of the great goofs of the last century has been the coining of the neuter title 'Ms.' that can be used for women or girls of any age.  The technical distinction of 'Miss' or 'Mrs.' or 'Madam' are perhaps too fine for today's fast and impolite age.

 

It is sort of like the dropping of the second person singular forms of 'thee', 'thou', and 'thine' which have become truly archaic and untaught.  Yet in some languages, formality reigns.  Two specific examples are: French, where the use of 'tu' between adults indicates considerable familiarity or familial relationship; Italian, where the polite form is the third person feminine singular and 'tu' is agreed upon among friends, lovers, family, or for children or pets.

 

The advertising industry has not helped to improve any of this.  They are not part of the solution.  If it comes to denigrating women in almost any way imaginable, some ad man has done it.  This should stop soon.  What it takes is some push-back from strong celebrities.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Sir ye have made a mistake. Ye should have carried the one.

Azula thou art beautiful and lovely. Thy face be a beacon of hope and goodness.

I think popular culture being capitalist has tended to feed plebeian desires and the lowest common denominator.

[Meg 368]

This question got lost in the shuffle and I would like to return to it.

 

What is wrong with making a pass? Sometimes that is just what you have to do. If you don't flirt with her how are you supposed to know if she likes you? Sometimes flirting is just about getting a conversation going. Sure, she can reject me, it might make her feel uncomfortable, but I can't hold back just because of that.

 

 

The appropriateness of making a pass depends on a variety of things:  how, where, when, who, and why.

 

Is the pass verbal or physical?  At the workplace, on a date, or on a dark street?   With a friend, stranger, or co-worker?   Are you trying to build a more intimate relationship?   Use a work relationship inappropriately?   The questions can go on.

 

Take, for example, the boss who corners a female employee in the supply closet and says "have sex with me now or you're fired".    That is now, fortunately, illegal in most places.  (For the record, it was not when I was younger.)  These days it usually isn't so blatant.   But, yes, this constitutes harassment.  and blackmail.  Even if he is asking "Hey, would you like to have dinner with me?" it can be ambiguous whether or not she will have a job if she says no.

 

If you make a physical pass to a stranger on a dark street, don't be surprised if she tries to claw your eyes out.

 

If you are talking about a social situation, it's obviously much different.  Flirting can be a good way to "test the waters" but it can also be misinterpreted.   Just because a woman is friendly, that doesn't mean she is ready to jump into bed with you.   Most men know that.  Some do not. 

 

Which can get into that grey area someone mentioned earlier:  sometimes men do not know, or do not want to see, that they are being a rapist.  Sometimes it's major ineptitude at reading social cues.  Sometimes it's seeing permission when none has been given.   Sometimes it's an unwillingness to clarify things because he is afraid she will say no.

 

Should she fight back?   It is a point that has been debated.  One school of thought is, do what you need to do to survive.   If that means recognizing you are physically trapped with no hope for escape, don't fight because it could get you killed.  Another school of thought says, some men will see that as consent so fighting in necessary.  You might get beaten up as well as raped but at least there will be clarity as to what happened.

 

 

 

[krbe 193]

Which can get into that grey area someone mentioned earlier:  sometimes men do not know, or do not want to see, that they are being a rapist.  Sometimes it's major ineptitude at reading social cues.  Sometimes it's seeing permission when none has been given.   Sometimes it's an unwillingness to clarify things because he is afraid she will say no.

 

Should she fight back?   It is a point that has been debated.  One school of thought is, do what you need to do to survive.   If that means recognizing you are physically trapped with no hope for escape, don't fight because it could get you killed.  Another school of thought says, some men will see that as consent so fighting in necessary.  You might get beaten up as well as raped but at least there will be clarity as to what happened.

How exactly do you mean 'do not know'? Physical reactions are observable facts, not school of thoughts. An attack normally leaves you either fighting back or paralysed due to shutdown of certain functions. The normal physical reactions you'd expect from someone having sex is not there - just the necessary ones (although they are also the most sexual ones, such as moisture production and orgasm, making it easier for both parties to rationalise away from rape).

[Duke87 1,070]

StatsCan suggests it is men who are at more risk of getting mugged:

 

In 2008, males accounted for 65% of robbery victims.

 

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85f0033m/2010024/part-partie1-eng.htm 

 

Hmm... it appears, at least, that their definition of "robbery" does not include things being stolen when the person they belong to is not physically present. So the most obvious confounding factor is not in play here. Looking at the numbers it does indeed appear that, at least in Canada, men are victims of robbery more often than women, and since the vast majority of perpetrators are strangers to the victim, this is mostly "mugging". Huh.

 

I'd be curious what a similar analysis for the US looks like.

 

Statistics like 1-in-5 women are sexual assault victims do not mean very much when there is no uniformly accepted definition of sexual assault or the definition is subject to such a wide range of interpretations.

 

Well, the CDC report this stat comes from is publicly available. They define rape as follows, on page 27 (spoilered because graphic descriptions):

Rape is defined as any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent. Rape is separated into three types, completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, and completed alcohol or drug facilitated penetration.

- Among women, rape includes vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes vaginal or anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.

- Among men, rape includes oral or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.

Being made to penetrate someone else includes times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.

- Among women, this behavior reflects a female being made to orally penetrate another female’s vagina or anus.

- Among men, being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one’s own penis; orally penetrating a female’s vagina or anus; anally penetrating a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen.

 

For the reader's digest version, basically they define rape as forcing someone to have sex with you, attempting to force someone to have sex with you, or having sex with someone while they are under the influence of a substance that makes them unable to resist. 18.3% of women polled have experienced one or more of these, with the specifics by category being:

 

Rape by force - 12.3%

Attempted rape by force - 5.2%

Rape while under the influence of drugs/alcohol - 8.0%

 

The third category is likely to stir some controversy since very often people do get drunk with the intent of hooking up, and some people who do this and later regret it may categorize it in their minds as rape. But there are certainly also plenty of incidents where the perpetrator intentionally causes their victim to be under the influence for this express purpose ("getting her drunk", date rape drugs, etc.). It is difficult to tell how much of that 8% falls into each of those categories. But regardless of the particular numbers, it is clearly fair to say that a significant percentage of women are victims of rape at some point in their lives. Even if you only include the first category, 12.3% is still more than 1 in 10, which is more than enough to qualify this as a huge problem.

 

Also worth noting that they have separate categories for "sexual coercion" which involves less than honest means of convincing someone to have sex with you without explicitly forcing them to do it (13.2% of women have been victims), for "unwanted sexual contact" which can include things like grinding (27.2% of women have been victims), and "non-contact unwanted sexual experiences" which includes various forms of sexual harassment (33.7% of women have been victims).

 

So, this infamous video which has been making the rounds is blatantly wrong - the things they are saying the study categorizes as rape are in fact categorized by the study as "sexual coercion" and not included in the rape statistics.

 

 

How exactly do you mean 'do not know'? Physical reactions are observable facts, not school of thoughts. An attack normally leaves you either fighting back or paralysed due to shutdown of certain functions. The normal physical reactions you'd expect from someone having sex is not there - just the necessary ones (although they are also the most sexual ones, such as moisture production and orgasm, making it easier for both parties to rationalise away from rape).

 

I think in instances of someone being in denial about what they are doing, alcohol is generally involved such that people's inhibitions are not what they normally are. What is actually a forceful grab and drag towards the bedroom might be seen as a playful tug in the eyes of a drunk man in denial. And what is actually pulling away and resisting can be seen as playing hard to get. Yes, physical reactions are observable facts, but humans are highly complex creatures and how one interprets those physical reactions can get very subjective, especially when you consider the tendency of the human mind to see what it wants to see. A man who has his convinced himself that "she wants it" is not easily going to be unconvinced.

[Meg 368]

Again, thank you, Duke.  

[DCMetro34 576]

We're taught to always be cautious of others, to always look over our shoulder.  Whether we would like to admit it or not, there are many people in many areas who have to do this.  We ought to try to confront the problem itself on top of these aforementioned responses that many of us, unfortunately, have to employ.

 

We really are a culture that is focused on sex and relationships, as we see in our media.  Listen to our songs, watch our music videos.  Many are misogynistic, while others (much fewer) are empowering to men or women or both.  Just because a song has a catchy beat doesn't mean the lyrics aren't awful.

 

But, there is never going to be a law that bans all misogynistic music and other media that contributes to this violent culture.  We, as citizens, have to speak out about it.  We have to teach our youth a world without defined gender roles, without "strong and weak" or "loving and emotionless" as roles that fit into one gender or the other.  Only when a woman can be a strong CEO and not be called "pushy" and only when a man can be a nurse and never be mocked or referred to as "effeminate" will we have equality.  It starts with us and how we perceive and treat others.

[LexusInfernus 908]

 

Statistics like 1-in-5 women are sexual assault victims do not mean very much when there is no uniformly accepted definition of sexual assault or the definition is subject to such a wide range of interpretations. Short of jailing most college boys for grinding on their female counterparts at frat parties, or placing every other guy looking for a one night stand at the bar in prison with actual serial rapists, how can we expect to suppress every manifestation of the need to satisfy our most powerful and deep-seated urges? Going beyond the simplistic response of “all acts of sexual impropriety are wrong, so no one should ever do them,” any practical solution involves making rigorous distinction between the many forms of sexual impropriety, determining which of these are criminal, and creating and enforcing laws whose severity is proportionate to that of the offenses. No such solution to the problem of sexual assault in America currently exists in part due to ambiguities and distortions perpetuated by reports designed to maximize shock value.

No, you don't have to jail everyone for making a pass at women. You can easily prevent a lot of it once you make clear to everyone what sexual harassment or sexual assault is. Most people realize that going up to someone and start groping their boobs is sexual assault. Most people realize that knocking someone out and then having sex with them is rape. What they don't realize is that yes, starting to grind someone at a party can be seen as sexual harassment or assault when the women clearly says she doesn't want you to do that. A lot of people also do not realize that when someone is to drunk, they cannot effectively consent to having sex, therefor if you have sex with someone that is to drunk, you are actually raping someone. I wonder how many people would still have sex with drunk girls if they knew that what they are doing is rape. It is in clarifying what consists of acceptable behavior and what does not that we can significantly improve the safety of women. 

 

Also, by clarifying this, it becomes easier for parents to raise their children and teaching them what consists of appropriate behavior, and it becomes easier for officials or the police to take rape complaints serious, rather than dismissing it as 'you were drunk, its your own fault'. If we can change peoples attitudes towards things like sexual assault and rape, it becomes easier to police it and a lot of people will simply no longer do it because they are not bad people. 

 

 

Yes the stats on rape are higher for women and that is terrible, I'm not trying to argue that. I'm just trying to say that women shouldn't be paranoid of rape around every corner in the way Meg was describing it. They should be aware of the danger, but not paranoid. Also, women do have to accept the danger as part of life. Danger is a part of life - anything can happen to you, man or woman.

 

Unless you are a women, it is not your place to tell women that they shouldn't be scared because its not that bad. Unless you are a women, you do not understand what women go through or how they feel about it. If women tell you that they are scared about getting raped or assaulted, then perhaps you should take them serious, rather than dismiss their fears 'because life is dangerous for me too and I don't feel scared'. 

 

Perhaps our view of "Sexual Harrassment" is different. A few dirty words and some unsavoury gestures are not sexual harassment in my book, as there is nothing actually sexual happening. Yes, they are rude and offensive, but not harassment. A man will likely never report something like this. A woman may or may not depending on how harsh it is and if they are so inclined.

 

Don't take this as justification, it's still messed up and ultimately wrong. But some girls consider a flirt and a pass harassment, and that is NOT right. Otherwise, we would all be alone all our lives.

Its pretty easy to distinguish sexual harassment from flirty talk. If the other person says 'stop it' or makes in any other way clear that they are not amused by it or makes them uncomfortable, and you still continue doing it, you are harassing them. The end, no ifs or buts, thats it. And this works for everyone. If males are less inclined to be uncomfortable by someone talking dirty to them, that is good for them, but it does not mean that therefor males can do it with women with the same expectations. 

 

How exactly do you mean 'do not know'? Physical reactions are observable facts, not school of thoughts. An attack normally leaves you either fighting back or paralysed due to shutdown of certain functions. The normal physical reactions you'd expect from someone having sex is not there - just the necessary ones (although they are also the most sexual ones, such as moisture production and orgasm, making it easier for both parties to rationalise away from rape).

Not every rapist attacks someone in such an obvious way. Rape is essentially the absence of consent. Consent is absent as long as both parties involved do not clearly say yes to having sex. So, when someone is to drunk to say yes, its rape. The fact that you are married to someone is also not an automatic yes to every time you want sex (marital rape). And in those cases, rape isn't always accompanied by physical violence that would result in such physical reactions. 

[MilitantRadical 2,844]

 

Unless you are a women, it is not your place to tell women that they shouldn't be scared because its not that bad. Unless you are a women, you do not understand what women go through or how they feel about it. If women tell you that they are scared about getting raped or assaulted, then perhaps you should take them serious, rather than dismiss their fears 'because life is dangerous for me too and I don't feel scared'.

 

It wasn't my intention to tell women they shouldn't be scared and I don't think I did. I was talking about paranoia. Like I said before there is a difference between fear and paranoia. One controls your life (paranoia), and the other informs you of rational dangers around you (fear). I was only saying this because I felt Meg's story from twitter, enlightening as it was, was also a bit sensationalistic.

 

I never said: 'life is dangerous for me too and I don't feel scared'. I said life is dangerous for everyone and we're all scared of something. I think I can handle myself but there are many people out there who could overpower me. When I walk down a dark alley at night I'm alert and partially 'afraid' because something could happen. That is the whole point.

 

The problem with "Feminism" (now I'm opening up a can of worms, putting quotations cause it is a broad brush I'm painting with) is that heterosexual men aren't invited to join the discussion. Every heated or complex debate usually ends with: "You're not a woman so shut up!" (exaggerating a bit). I was merely trying to point out that although women are more likely to be victims of rape they don't have to feel alone in their fear of danger in the world.  To say rape and being attacked is only the domain of women and that they are the only ones who have to look over their shoulder in a dark parking garage just isn't realistic.

 

Also, a lot of "Feminism" seems only to portray women as victims of men. "Women have to do this because of men, women have to do that because of men. Patriarchy blah, blah, blah." I'm not trying to make this about me or just Men; I'm trying to look at it holistically. I'm trying to bring a little balance to the discussion. What about the pressures women put on men? As a woman has it ever occurred to you that there even is such a thing? There is a part of feminism that just wants to make women feel like victims of men rather than empowering them. Women will never be equal or truly empowered until that element of feminism is purged. I guess I am not a woman so what do I know...

 

I feel the reason we have these abhorrent groups like InCel and PUAhate is because Men are constantly excluded from the discussion of gender. There is not academic masculine equivalent of feminism (not that such a thing should necessarily exist cause it might just create more division). Men aren't taken seriously when it comes to how they view gender equality and gender roles. Especially by women (sorry ladies). The attitude is: "you're a man so you should know how to deal with it." "You're afraid of going jogging in the park at midnight? Why? You're a man, aren't you?" So they are sidelined and maligned. This creates an extreme hatred of women and feminism. 

 

And Meg, yes I agree there is such thing as an appropriate and inappropriate pass which depends on many things. I was merely talking in the context of the story which seemed like a relatively harmless pass. There is a huge difference between making a pass and cornering a female employee in the supply closet and saying "have sex with me now or you're fired". Still, it would be inappropriate for a boss to make a pass, no matter how polite or well executed on a female, or male if the genders were reversed or if the boss is gay, employee simply due to the hierarchy of a workplace. Trust me when I tell you women aren't the only ones who have to deal with their bosses making passes at them in the work place. Happened to me once, happened to a friend of mine. I probably know other guys that has happened to but they just haven't said anything because it is embarrassing.

[krbe 193]

I think in instances of someone being in denial about what they are doing, alcohol is generally involved such that people's inhibitions are not what they normally are. What is actually a forceful grab and drag towards the bedroom might be seen as a playful tug in the eyes of a drunk man in denial. And what is actually pulling away and resisting can be seen as playing hard to get. Yes, physical reactions are observable facts, but humans are highly complex creatures and how one interprets those physical reactions can get very subjective, especially when you consider the tendency of the human mind to see what it wants to see. A man who has his convinced himself that "she wants it" is not easily going to be unconvinced.

 

True, but then we're talking about the state of mind of the perpetrator, rather than the response of the victim (which is what I commented on - the second paragraph of the quote). What I meant was that in itself, the reactions are not hard to observe. That someone choose to alter their state of mind and ability to percept is not attributable to the victim (as with all crimes with victims).

Consent is absent as long as both parties involved do not clearly say yes to having sex.

 

I believe the majority of sexual incidents would be "rape" if that actually was the definition.

[Meg 368]

 

To say rape and being attacked is only the domain of women and that they are the only ones who have to look over their shoulder in a dark parking garage just isn't realistic.

 

 

Yes, men do get stalked and attacked too.   With much less frequency because attackers believe that men can fight back and women are easier targets.  But, yes, I am agreeing that it's bad that any of us have to live this way.

 

I feel the reason we have these abhorrent groups like InCel and PUAhate is because Men are constantly excluded from the discussion of gender. There is not academic masculine equivalent of feminism (not that such a thing should necessarily exist cause it might just create more division). Men aren't taken seriously when it comes to how they view gender equality and gender roles.

 

Men need to be included in the discussion.  Right now, society is saying "Don't get raped".  It is not saying "Don't rape."   

 

As to why men are being excluded . . . I can tell you how it started.   Back when "women's liberation" (as it was called then) was in the early stages, many men simply refused to believe that the idea had any merit.  Why talk about something when it is pointless and crazy?   The conversation continued without them.  Eventually some began to notice that the issue wasn't going away.   So they started objecting.  ("Wait?  I'm supposed to take this crap seriously?!")   That was not considered to be a constructive contribution.

 

Many men in my generation are never going to catch up.  The rules changed on them between their childhood and their adulthood.  Many have adapted; many have not.   I have more hope for the younger generations.  They never absorbed the 1950s stereotypes.

 

 

 Trust me when I tell you women aren't the only ones who have to deal with their bosses making passes at them in the work place. Happened to me once, happened to a friend of mine. I probably know other guys that has happened to but they just haven't said anything because it is embarrassing.

 

 

That is sad.  People in positions of power should not be preying upon their employees regardless of the demographics involved.

 

 

 

True, but then we're talking about the state of mind of the perpetrator, rather than the response of the victim (which is what I commented on - the second paragraph of the quote). What I meant was that in itself, the reactions are not hard to observe. That someone choose to alter their state of mind and ability to percept is not attributable to the victim (as with all crimes with victims).

 

 

What does the response of the victim have to do with it?   A person too drunk to consent is too drunk to consent.   I do not understand the point you are trying to make.

 

 

Consent is absent as long as both parties involved do not clearly say yes to having sex.

 

I believe the majority of sexual incidents would be "rape" if that actually was the definition.

 

 

Please clarify.   Are you saying that the majority of sexual incidents do not involve verbal agreement or that they don't involve consenting parties?   As LexusInfernus said "Rape is essentially the absence of consent".

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The way this has been going, some of you must be Shakers.  Met any lately?  They died out in the 17th century because they denied sex.