City States

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Considering some of the things that have been said in the Catalan Independence thread, I think we need to have a talk about the possibility of City States.

 

I lived in Toronto for many years during its evolution from a set of less than friendly communities to the forced (by the province) metro amalgamation to the present incorporation of the city with the merger of the boroughs.  I don't live there any more.  However, when I did live there, there was a lively discussion of Toronto dropping out of Ontario and being its own province since it has a huge population, is more or less self-sufficient, and could easily be its own thing.  The main fly in the ointment was the loss of the Provincial Capitol.  Queen's Park would have to move out, and where they would go might well decide the fate of the city.  At the time, there was talk of Hamilton, North Bay, Windsor, and Kitchener-Waterloo as the new provincial centre.  The loss of business and taxes to the city with the legislature gone was factored in, and the whole proposition sort of died.

 

Now, what about New York City?  Albany is the State Capitol, so there is no problem there.  Can the city live on its own?  What would happen to the rest of the State of New York?

[Sabretooth78 808]

There seems to at least be a talked-about secession movement for every region of the state.  Upstate as a whole is unhappy.  I've heard some similar opinions, for eerily similar reasons even coming from Long Island.

 

I'm sure the city would do quite well.  Frankly, the current borders in that area (along with many other areas in the US for that matter) are obsolete and you could "easily" carve out chunks of northeastern NJ and southwestern CT to go with it.

 

If an Upstate secession movement was ever to take hold (and not be led by that idiot Carl Paladino), I would gladly support it.  How well would Upstate fare?  Who knows.  It's hard to conceive of a situation where we would be worse off, but each of the major cities (excepting perhaps Rochester) has shot itself in the foot enough times to go with Albany's bungling.  But is that true ineptitude or does it exist simply because "big brother" allows it?

 

I've even joked that I would support a secession movement that involved just dropping Albany County from the state.  Such a measure would probably pass in every county except New York and Queens.

[MandelSoft 2,775]

Some country have cities that have their own state, county or province:

- Brussels, Belgium

- Bremen, Germany

- Hamburg, Germany

- Berlin, Germany

- Paris/Ile-de-France, France

Maybe you can look there for inspiration.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Interesting that so many large European centres have become independent of the canton government.  Now how does this work administratively?  Clearly, each city belongs to the country, and must operate as a separate canton.  So the municipal government takes on the appearance of a canton government.  I use the term 'canton' to be more general than the term 'county'.

 

Must save them a bundle in middle-man taxes.

[TekindusT 3,809]

In the case of Berlin, that wouldn't be exactly true John, at least. Berlin is a city-state, as MandelSoft said; so it can look like the state (Bundesland) government is the same thing as the city government. In reality, each of the city's boroughs has something similar to a town hall, structured like any other city's town hall (but without the higher degrees of autonomy a normal city town hall has), with its elected representatives, offices, etc. Then, there keep being 3 levels of administration and yeah, these middle-men you were talking about.

 

I would bet that the other city-states in Germany and Brussels work the same way. Paris and its suburbs wouldn't represent this case, as the Île de France region, as none of the other French regions, has the powers that a US/Canada state, a German Bundesland or a Spanish autonomous community have.

 

Getting rid of red tape keeps being an utopia, it seems.

[Alejandro24 575]

Well, not sure if Mexico City counts as a special case of a city state.

Mexico (the city, not the whole country) is in a territory with the name Distrito Federal. This territory is the seat of the government of the country, hence the territory isn't part of any other state, it is a territory of all the country. But in recently times DF is taking some works as if it were a state, a federal state, despite it is still in subject of federal decitions. It has its own governor (they call it jefe de gobierno, or government chief, instead gobernador), legislative assembly, court of justice and secretaries. Also it have representatives at senate and deputies chamber.

Also in 2018 people from DF will have some more rights to control their territory as another state, making it probably the state number 32 of the country. Not sure what could be that rights, I'm going to look for the article.

 

In the case of my home-city there is a metropolitan council (Consejo de la Zona Metropolitana de Guadalajara) in purpose of keep the growth and security of the city in order. But the metro area is still divided into municipalities, so the council is integrated to this division.

[Xenocity 343]

Interesting that so many large European centres have become independent of the canton government.  Now how does this work administratively?  Clearly, each city belongs to the country, and must operate as a separate canton.  So the municipal government takes on the appearance of a canton government.  I use the term 'canton' to be more general than the term 'county'.

 

Must save them a bundle in middle-man taxes.

City and state goverment are one of the same.

Since the city is a state/province, it is represented in the national legislature and national electoral system.

 

NYC. Chicago, LA, Detroit, New Orleans, Baltimore, etc... have limited home rule, but any change to their charter requires state approval as well as the city voter approval.

Though the state has the power to revoke the powers as does the federal goverment.

 

With that said NYC is special due to it have certain institutions.

• NYC has the Federal Court of Manhattan, which has special bankrupty and other business powers over companies and organizations that are worth over a certain amount or has a certain amount of revenue.
• There is also another federal court in NYC which is standard.
• There is the Federal Reserve of Manhattan which has special banking and regulator powers in the banking system.
• It is also the world's biggest gold respository (yeah it is bigger than fort knox by far)
• The three major stock exchanges are in NYC
• There is a U.S. treasury branch there as well
• Each of the 5 boroughs of NYC are counties in NY
• NYC also has 27 U.S. congressional districts, which gives the city 27 members in the U.S. House of Representatives.
• The U.S. government also gives money to cities over 1 million.
• UN building is technically international land, outside of the U.S. and NYC jursidiction as long as the UN holds the building.
• If the UN sells the building or doesn't want it, it reverts back to NYC.

 

NYC was also the first U.S. capital.

 

Detroit is a special case due to it being in bankruptcy.

The home rule it had has been revoked and is now under a state appointed emergency manager and the U.S. bankruptcy judge/

The city government has minimal powers until such time the state feels they are able to govern effectively.

Detroit is broken up between 3 congressional districts, some which include other cities.

 

With that said, no new U.S. state can be created out of an existing state without the approval of the existing state and U.S. government.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

There are a couple of special circumstances close to home:

 

The city of Ottawa, Ontario includes or is included in (I forget which) the National Capital Region, which I think also extends to Hull, Quebec.  The NCC has direct authority over federal buildings including the home of the prime minister (24 Sussex Drive), the leader of the opposition (Stornoway) and the residence of the Governor General (Rideau Hall).  There are some sort of symbiotic relationships here.

 

The District of Columbia is not quite a state but has congressional representation as well as a city government.  The whole thing is rather mysterious to outside observers.

 

In Canada for a city to become its own province would require a unanimous vote of the rest of the provinces.  You can imagine just how likely that is.  The provincial powers are very jealously guarded, and this is why we have ten provinces and three territories.  To meet one of the requirements for provincial status and break the federal leash, a territory needs to have a certain population, and none of the territories meet this criterion at this time, I think.  The most likely candidate is probably the Yukon territory, but unlike the U.S. State of Alaska, the Yukon is more challenged. 

 

Originally organized as the Department of Alaska, the area was renamed the District of Alaska and the Alaska Territory before becoming the modern state of Alaska upon being admitted to the Union as a state in 1959.

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Purchase

[Xenocity 343]

 

The District of Columbia is not quite a state but has congressional representation as well as a city government.  The whole thing is rather mysterious to outside observers.

 

 

It's not that mysterious.

 

D.C. is the capital and is governed by a few special clauses in the U.S. constitution.

 

D.C. is governed by the U.S. congress, which in turn merged the cities and the district into one district government.

This goverment has very limited charter and basic powers:

• Basic services such as garabage pick up and other utilities
• The right to have a school district controlled by the residents
• The right to some basic laws
• The right to issue driver licenses
• The right to issue license plates
• The right to issue other forms of licenses
• The right to have the same presidental electoral votes as the least populus state (Currently WY)
• The right to one non voting, non committee member, who's sole duty to is to present issues facing the district to the committee

 

D.C. doesn't have:

• The right to levy its own taxes through the district's government
• The right to pass most laws
• The right of police power
• The right of regulatory powers
• The rights of building codes and building permits
• The right to build and maintain roads
• The right to zone and rezone the district
• The right to vote for congress
• Voting representation in congress
• The right to vote on constitutional amendments
• Legal representation in lawsuits
• Rights and powers of statehood
• The right to make, control and pass the budget (congress even controls the budget for D.C.)
• The right to change the charter
• The right to set the district's council size
• The right to set the district's elected officials terms
• The right to set the district's elected officials pay

All the employees of the district government including the Mayor, council, fire officers and police officers are federal employees.

 

An amendment was offered to grant D.C. home rule to that of a state, but the states voted it down.

[Duke87 1,070]

Now, what about New York City?  Albany is the State Capitol, so there is no problem there.  Can the city live on its own?  What would happen to the rest of the State of New York?

 

Generally speaking, if you carved out downstate (NYC, Long Island, Westchester, and Rockland, let's say) they would get along just fine on their own economically. But the resulting state would lean substantially to the left (most of New York's conservatives are upstate), which would make the political landscape interesting. The state would be majority-minority (about 44% non-Hispanic white). It would be home to more than 12 million people and would be the nation's sixth most populous state. In terms of area it would be the nation's third-smallest state (behind only Rhode Island and Delaware).

 

As for the rest of New York, it would become a noticeably more conservative and noticeably less economically robust state. It would get the short end of the deal in that regard.

 

 

There is this one little problem that makes downstate secession pretty damn unviable, though, and it's something people tend not to think about or realize: water. New York City's drinking water supply comes mostly from a system of reservoirs way up in the Catskill Region. A downstate secession scenario would put almost all of this vital system in a different state. One can imagine the legal issues that would arise from this.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Things start to get very unpractical when you try to take apart something that has been integrated for a century or so.

[cmdp123789 710]

I dont know much about the topic itself, but what I heard, and just because my background is accounting and global economics.. I would say a city state (and again as an economic point of view) isnt something too crazy. If you think about it, city states is basically the ability for a metropolitan area to become a state or province itself, meaning that it could impart its own laws and have its own state government.

 

Now, on the other side, if I had to use an example I know, it would be the city of Buenos Aires, where the ciy itself is the capital of the country, but not the capital of the province, yet the city itself (surrounded by the metro area) is an autonomous city, which means that is not part of the "metro city".. 

 

Now, when it comes to economics.. you would need to see what are the policies, what does sufficient means for the city. Of course we are not talking about a different country like what Catalunya is trying to do right? are we talking about state as a province but part of the same country?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

I think that at the moment we would entertain the idea of a sovereign city state in some circumstances.

 

Catalonia is not a city, it is a rather large territory with the capital at Barcelona.  It has not always been part of Spain.

 

However, consider New York City and its environs.  It could become a new state within the United States of America, leaving New York State completely.  New York State would consist mostly of the northern part of the state with the existing state capital at Albany.  This is probably possible, but there are some rather sticky problems like the fact that the water supply for this city comes from upper New York State, so there would have to be some very careful agreements or they would find their water cut off.  Of course, they could build desalination plants, but it would have to be before the fact of any separation.  For such a large urban sprawl, desalination plants might not be a bad idea anyway, if they could be done in an affordable way.  Every city wanting to go-it-alone has similar problems.

 

[Hmmm.  A side thought.  What a neat program the U.S. government would have if they used building desalination plants for thirsty cities as a prime contractor employing thousands of people.  Take it, it's free (the idea that is).]

[TekindusT 3,809]

Catalonia is not a city, it is a rather large territory with the capital at Barcelona.  It has not always been part of Spain.

 

For the Americans, it is a territory the size of Maryland with a capital city as populated as Philadelphia or Phoenix (thanks, Wikipedia).

[cmdp123789 710]

Well, but the question here is, what benefit would a city alone have by being a different state? I mean, if NYC would become a state, what benefit would it get by setting a new state limited by the metro area? 

 

I would understand if Catalonia for example decides to become a sovereign state, which could make sense in some degree.. but NYC itself would have a lot of problems out of this, for starters, there would have to be a governor from NYC, which would have to be elected out of the counties, which are part of one city and one metro area, yet every county should have its own seat.. please correct me if Im wrong.. Im still learning the way the American politics work =)

[LexusInfernus 908]

Well, but the question here is, what benefit would a city alone have by being a different state? I mean, if NYC would become a state, what benefit would it get by setting a new state limited by the metro area? 

Well for one a city would gain a greater degree of power when it comes to setting up laws to run the city. The thing with national politics (especially in the US, but to a lesser degree in other Western countries) is that its getting bogged down to the point nothing gets done. Cities on the other hand, generally have a pretty effective city government. They have to be because they are far closer to the realities of the city and to the citizens. They are far more aware of whats going inside their territory and the decisions they take are often of a much more practical nature. But because they are part of a greater nation, they are currently bogged down by the much slower national government. 

 

I dont think that any city truly wants or should become independent to the degree that it would become an actual 'state' by itself. Cities are inherently connected and integrated in their respective areas, and setting up an extra border around it doesn't work. What might work and which I think is also a more realistic and possibly very positive option, is to simply give city governments a greater degree of authority and autonomy to run their city as effective as possible. That way you allow city states to become innovative and give them room to experiment with practical solutions to certain problems, rather than wait for the idiots in say Washington, to actually get something done for a change.

[Sabretooth78 808]

 

Interesting that so many large European centres have become independent of the canton government.  Now how does this work administratively?  Clearly, each city belongs to the country, and must operate as a separate canton.  So the municipal government takes on the appearance of a canton government.  I use the term 'canton' to be more general than the term 'county'.

 

Must save them a bundle in middle-man taxes.

Detroit is a special case due to it being in bankruptcy.

The home rule it had has been revoked and is now under a state appointed emergency manager and the U.S. bankruptcy judge/

The city government has minimal powers until such time the state feels they are able to govern effectively.

 

 

Technically speaking, NYC and Buffalo (city proper; Erie County also has its own, as well as several other political divisions across the state) also have similar "control boards" empowered by the state government; NYC's due to its collapse in the 70's and Buffalo's due to its near bankruptcy about a decade ago.  Last I had known, NYC's was effectively dormant and in continued existence only due to statute (which may have expired by now).  I think Buffalo's is in a similar situation as the city seems to have turned itself around nicely in that timeframe - no thanks to the doofus mayor and council.

 

Now what needs to be done is to somehow place a control board over the state government.  Lest we become the next California.  In a sense, by placing one over a county as they've done in Erie (and also wealthy Nassau if I'm not mistaken, and probably several others), they are doing that.  In NYS, the original sole purpose of the counties were to provide for administration of state government functions.  Even today, unfunded state mandates consume an inordinate amount of the county budgets.  In effect, in NYS, you pay taxes to the state through the state and through the county.  Most of those state-by-state tax rankings probably don't take that into account.  Then again, when you're already always in the 45-50 range, it probably doesn't really matter.  It kind of puts the upstate depopulation and exodus of "official" corporate HQs from NYC to neighboring NJ and CT in a little better perspective.

[Snugies 91]

Has anyone mentioned Monaco or Singapore yet?

[Sabretooth78 808]

Has anyone mentioned Monaco or Singapore yet?

 

How about Hong Kong?  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

 

Has anyone mentioned Monaco or Singapore yet?

 

How about Hong Kong?  

 

Both Monaco and Singapore are independent sovereign states.  The Principality of Monaco has been pretty much independent since the middle ages, first as a monarchy and now as a constitutional principality.

 

The Republic of Singapore is an island state which gained its independence from the British Empire in 1963, flirted with membership in Malaysia but was expelled in 1965.  It is now a unitary parliamentary constitutional republic.

 

Isn't Wiki wonderful at times.

 

Hong Kong was leased by China in the early 20th century for 99 years to the British Empire (and successors).  When the lease ran out, China promised the people there a transition period of 50 years to get their act together and fall in line.  Late events seem to indicate that the Chinese government, as usual, is not going to keep its word.

[Xenocity 343]

Has anyone mentioned Monaco or Singapore yet?

Monaco has one special difference than any other country in the world.

 

Monaco's crown prince must produce a biological male heir to succeed the thrown.

If crown prince fails to produce a biological male heir, by treaty with France, the city/country loses it's indepedence and returns to France.

 

Singapore is also different.

It went from being a UK military base/trading port, then to a city with a major port, indepedence, then joined Malaysa, then was ejected and became independent, then in turn signed a special defense treaty with the UK and has a UK base there too.

[Duke87 1,070]

 

How about Hong Kong?  

 

Hong Kong was leased by China in the early 20th century for 99 years to the British Empire (and successors).  When the lease ran out, China promised the people there a transition period of 50 years to get their act together and fall in line.  Late events seem to indicate that the Chinese government, as usual, is not going to keep its word.

 

At this point the Chinese government is going to have its way with Hong Kong and no one is going to be able to stop them. So forget about Hong Kong as a microstate.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

 

Has anyone mentioned Monaco or Singapore yet?

Monaco has one special difference than any other country in the world.

 

Monaco's crown prince must produce a biological male heir to succeed the thrown.

If crown prince fails to produce a biological male heir, by treaty with France, the city/country loses it's independence and returns to France.

 

<snip>

Huh?  Did you mean 'succeed to the throne'?  Very strange typo.

[cmdp123789 710]

W

How about Hong Kong?

Hong Kong was leased by China in the early 20th century for 99 years to the British Empire (and successors). When the lease ran out, China promised the people there a transition period of 50 years to get their act together and fall in line. Late events seem to indicate that the Chinese government, as usual, is not going to keep its word.

At this point the Chinese government is going to have its way with Hong Kong and no one is going to be able to stop them. So forget about Hong Kong as a microstate. Well, I have a Chinese friend, and according to him, Hong Kong is a whole new story. See, and in his words, Hong Kong is only Chinese because it is near china... But people from Hong Kong would rather be part of Britain again than be annexed to china.. Liberty of economic.

Now, how true that is, I don't know, but what I do know is that sometimes it seems that what we can accomplish in papers, isn't that easy to accomplish in real life.

[NMUSpidey 3,956]

Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka, and Nagasaki are all their own prefectures.  Japan's system makes them not all 県 (ken) but rather one each of 都道府県 (to/dou/fu/ken).  Tokyo is 都 (to), and serves as the nation's capital.  The 都 is divided between the 23区 of the city and the more suburban and mountainous western part.  Takao-san is actually a quite pretty, green natural park just a little bit outside Tokyo.

 

Kyoto and Osaka are 府 (fu).  The actual city of Osaka covers much more of its 府 than Kyoto does, but it's a smaller area, too.  Osaka might be the closest thing in Japan to a city-state.

 

Nagasaki is 県 (ken).  The city is but a part of the prefecture, more along the lines of NYC and NY state, but Nagasaki's city also serves as the prefectural capital.

[jmsepe 2,039]

But isn't Tokyo more autonomous than Osaka in terms of governance? Osaka has filed to acquire the same administrative powers to its wards same as Tokyo but I think this haven't been approved yet.

[Xenocity 343]

 

 

Has anyone mentioned Monaco or Singapore yet?

Monaco has one special difference than any other country in the world.

 

Monaco's crown prince must produce a biological male heir to succeed the thrown.

If crown prince fails to produce a biological male heir, by treaty with France, the city/country loses it's independence and returns to France.

 

<snip>

Huh?  Did you mean 'succeed to the throne'?  Very strange typo.

 

Yes...

No need to be a grammar nazi. 

 

Like I said if the crown prince fails to produce a biological heir the country reverts back to France. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Not a matter of grammar.  The sentence didn't make sense with the wrong word.

[NMUSpidey 3,956]

But isn't Tokyo more autonomous than Osaka in terms of governance? Osaka has filed to acquire the same administrative powers to its wards same as Tokyo but I think this haven't been approved yet.

 

I think so, it might be one of the ways fu differ from to.