Catlan Independence?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Two simple questions.

 

Spanish government declares it illegal.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

In many nations, ceding is unconstitutional. It is also unproductive in many cases and harmful for both parties.

--Ocram

[LexusInfernus 908]

Well that will be interesting. If Catalonia goes on with the referendum and they secede, Spain will perhaps not accept the outcome of the referendum. Then what will the world do? What will Europe do? 

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

Well that will be interesting. If Catalonia goes on with the referendum and they secede, Spain will perhaps not accept the outcome of the referendum. Then what will the world do? What will Europe do? 

 

Spain may pull off a Ukraine; declare Catalonia as an illegal state and send in the army?

[LexusInfernus 908]

Spain may pull off a Ukraine; declare Catalonia as an illegal state and send in the army?

 

That is certainly possible. Although I hope both Catalonia and Spain are sensible enough to not let it come that far....

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I was hoping for a comment from our favourite Catalan.  Well?

[Charlie_Zane 963]

Catalonia leaving Spain will take a fair chunk of Spain's economy with it which would be pretty harmful to Spain, but it's all their right to be able to vote for independence. Spain's main concern is that more regions would want to seek independence too, such as Galicia and Basque Country. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The point about the Basques raises a different can of worms because they want the French Landais as well.

[SteveMSim 275]

 

Well that will be interesting. If Catalonia goes on with the referendum and they secede, Spain will perhaps not accept the outcome of the referendum. Then what will the world do? What will Europe do? 

 

Spain may pull off a Ukraine; declare Catalonia as an illegal state and send in the army?

 

 

The United States did that when some southern states seceded and formed their own independent country.  However, the results were very catastrophic and left a bitterness that lasts to this day.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Perhaps tempers are too short at the moment.  Spain, like Italy, is a collection of states that often warred with each other.  It will be interesting to see if the thousand-year-old angsts can be settle peaceably. 

 

The Spanish have had a recent civil war, and they should be able to remember what a horror such a thing is.

[Duke87 1,070]

So long as Catalonia remains part of Schengen and uses the Euro, this has no potential impact on me personally. Although it might be interesting to see if both of those things happen. If Spain could veto Scotland's entrance to the EU, surely they would do the same for Catalonia. In which case, there would be some major drawbacks as they'd lose all the benefits of being in the EU.

 

Even if not, though, I do have to ask: what does Catalonia stand to gain by becoming independent? Usually a successful independence is preceded by significant offenses on the part of the ruling government. Is Spain treating Catalonia in an egregiously unfair manner? Or do Catalonians want independence for emotional rather than pragmatic reasons?

[Xenocity 343]

So long as Catalonia remains part of Schengen and uses the Euro, this has no potential impact on me personally. Although it might be interesting to see if both of those things happen. If Spain could veto Scotland's entrance to the EU, surely they would do the same for Catalonia. In which case, there would be some major drawbacks as they'd lose all the benefits of being in the EU.

 

Even if not, though, I do have to ask: what does Catalonia stand to gain by becoming independent? Usually a successful independence is preceded by significant offenses on the part of the ruling government. Is Spain treating Catalonia in an egregiously unfair manner? Or do Catalonians want independence for emotional rather than pragmatic reasons?

Catalonia is culturally and lingustically different from Spain, aka Spain's Quebec

Spain over the centuries has tried to wipe out Catalonia's culture and language by making it illegal until Spain became democracy in the late 70s.

 

Right now Catalonia language and culture is regional with limited regional goverment. Spain does not accept the culture and langauge on a national level. Spain also is favors the regions that are Spanish.

 

If Catalonia becomes independent, at indepedence they will no longer be an EU and Euro country.

Catalonia will have to apply for EU membership and go through the process of becoming a Euro country.

Though the catch is all EU countries can veto any application to the EU.

 

Catalonia will automatically lose access to all international institutions, markets, treaties, and connections.

They will be forced to start over from scratch at the international and EU levels.

I forgot to add Spain conquered Catalonia in a war.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I believe that people who live in Catalonia are called the same as their language: Catalan.  Spain's history as a country is probably as troubled as Italy's or Germany's.  Many little states dragged together, kicking and screaming by outside forces.  I am surprised that Portugal managed to hold its own against the consolidation of the Iberian Peninsula.

[Xenocity 343]

I believe that people who live in Catalonia are called the same as their language: Catalan.  Spain's history as a country is probably as troubled as Italy's or Germany's.  Many little states dragged together, kicking and screaming by outside forces.  I am surprised that Portugal managed to hold its own against the consolidation of the Iberian Peninsula.

There history of Spain, Germany and Italy goes as follows.

 

Spain:

• Spain was reunited by the marriage of Queen Isabelle and King Ferdand, which unifed their kingdoms of Castile and Aragon.
• Spain then conquered Catalonia and Basque regions to bring stability to Spain.
• In 1580 the reigning monarchs of Portugal and Spain married unifying their crowns and country
• In 1640 Portugal separated from Spain ending their union
• In the early 1700s Spain and France tried to merge their crowns and countries into one super power, but the British were able to fund a coalition against them preventing it, nearly bankrupting the UK

Germany:

• Germanic people were losely unified in a confederation against the Roman Empire
• After fighting the Roman Empire for centuries, the Germanic states  unified into the Holy Roman Empire on December 25th 800 AD
• Charlemegne the first emperor
• After his death, the Kingdom of France separated from it
• France was created by two of his sons
• The Holy Roman Empire would eventually internally separate into Northern German states, Southern German states and Haspburg Austria
• Napolen's France would defeat the Holy Roman Emipre  in 1814, disolving the empire for good.
• Austria would gain part of it and the rest would form the German Confederation and Prussia
• Around the year 900 the Anglo's and Saxon's  would leave and conquer Britian
• They would end up creating England
• Around the year 1050, the German dialect of Saxon would fully evolve into the English Language
• In 1871 Napoleon III would lead France to war against Prussia
• Prussia would quickly and totally beat them with technology ending the war
• At the signing of the treaty in Paris, the German States voted to unify behind Prussia to form the German Empire.
• The King of Prussia would become the German Emperor
• Prussia held the majority of the German lands, the German people and resources
• Prussia would eventually integrate the other German states forming a unified country
• Prussia and Austria failed to agree on terms of unity
• In 1914, WWI breaks out and 4 years later Germany narrowly (they came so close to winning the war) loses the war forcing the break up of Eastern Germany and Austrian Empires
• in 1944, most of Prussia was given to Poland to punish Germany.
• Germany was the split in 4 pieces as was Austria as punishment for the war.
• Germany was then reunified in 1991 when Germany agreed to all of the UK and France's demands, allowing the treaty to be signed
  • As part of the reunification, Germany had to agree to a currency and financial union with France and the rest of the EU.
  • Germany also had to agree to bail out the Eurozone countries if came to that
  • Germany is forbidden to leave both the EU and Euro.
  • If the EU and Euro dissolve, Germany can only leave after the dissolution is complete and has to bear the costs of it.
• Yes, the UK and France forced it.

 

Italy:

• Italy unified under the Roman Empire
• Western Roman Empire finally collasped with the final emperor being overthorwn in 476 AD
• The territory broke up into numeorus states
• Italian states would be reunified, conquered, broken up off and on until 1861
• Starting in the 1850s the Italian speaking people wanted a unified country, leading to a war with the major European powers
• France would enter on the side of Italy, Austria on the side of the Pope.
• France would defeat Austria leading to Italy being unified in 1861
• Italy would finally take Rome from the Pope in 1870, making it the capital of Italy
• in 1929 Italy and Vatican signed the Lateran Treaty ending the dispute between the two and recongizing the Vatican's independece.

In short Germans and Italians wanted national unity, while not all of Spain wanted unity.

 

Germany and Italy are stable countries in the unity sense.

[LexusInfernus 908]

So long as Catalonia remains part of Schengen and uses the Euro, this has no potential impact on me personally. Although it might be interesting to see if both of those things happen. If Spain could veto Scotland's entrance to the EU, surely they would do the same for Catalonia. In which case, there would be some major drawbacks as they'd lose all the benefits of being in the EU.

 

Even if not, though, I do have to ask: what does Catalonia stand to gain by becoming independent? Usually a successful independence is preceded by significant offenses on the part of the ruling government. Is Spain treating Catalonia in an egregiously unfair manner? Or do Catalonians want independence for emotional rather than pragmatic reasons?

Well yeah, if they do become part of the EU thats true. But you can be sure that for now Spain would rather see Catalonia become an economic cesspool by blocking their access to Europe and much of the rest of the world than see it propser as its own nation. 

 

As for Spain treating Catalonia unfair, you can say that there is definitely some truth in that. Apart from the historical conflicts between Spain and Catalonia, even now its Catalonia that is basically the economic heart of Spain. So Spain comes in and takes a lot of the wealth earned in Catalonia and uses it to prop up the economic weaker parts of Spain. Which pisses off a lot of Catalans who feel that they are essentially paying for the rest of Spain. So they feel misrepresented by the people in Madrid and now they want to be on their own again. Question is if that can work. 

[TekindusT 3,809]

I was hoping for a comment from our favourite Catalan.  Well?

How you dare beginning this thread without noticing to the Association of Catalan Independentists on ST (ACIST)? Just kidding... I see Xenocity is very well informed. 

 

As for Spain treating Catalonia unfair, you can say that there is definitely some truth in that. Apart from the historical conflicts between Spain and Catalonia, even now its Catalonia that is basically the economic heart of Spain. So Spain comes in and takes a lot of the wealth earned in Catalonia and uses it to prop up the economic weaker parts of Spain. Which pisses off a lot of Catalans who feel that they are essentially paying for the rest of Spain. So they feel misrepresented by the people in Madrid and now they want to be on their own again. Question is if that can work.

 

Just take a look to the recently approved Spanish general budget. Catalonia supposes a 19% of the Spanish overall GDP. Instead, receives a 9% of the total investment in the budget. If this was enough to cope up with the public services, nobody would be pissed. But what hurts, day by day, is seeing schools made of worker's cabins, totally overcrowded hospitals, rail tracks falling to pieces, universities that cannot even afford to buy raw materials in order to show the students how a CNC machine works... Everything public works just wrong, and all blame underfunding. While Catalonia is one of the highest taxed regions in the world.

 

The Catalan language and culture are an important feel of the independentist feeling, and before "everything changed" (years 2006-2007). Nevertheless, only around 10-15% of the population considered themselves openly independentist basing themselves on nationalist or cultural reasons. The fact that made up dramatically increase the number of independentists it is the economic (budgets), cultural (Spanish language imposition), political (seek-and-destroy tactics on any important law passed by the Catalan Parliament) systematic mistreatments the central goverment by any of the two big parties ("same dogs, different collar"), inflicts to Catalonia. It is popular to say nowadays "I wasn't an independentist. I was forced to be one by the Spanish govt". I am one of those.

[krbe 193]

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Perhaps it is time for the tail (Madrid) to stop trying to wag the dog (Barcelona).

[Duke87 1,070]

So the issue is that there is a major deficit between what Catalonia pays in taxes and what it receives in government funding, in effect they are subsidizing the rest of the country.

 

This is a concept which is actually quite familiar to me as we have basically the same issue in New York to a lesser extent: New York City and the rest of downstate every year pays more than 10 billion in state taxes more that it receives in state funding. The reason is basically the same: downstate is growing and has a robust economy, but much of upstate is struggling and stagnant. You do occasionally get people downstate complaining about how they are subsidizing upstate and saying that New York should be split into two states to fix this problem. But this has never been a serious consideration.

 

 

Here is the thing though: at least in New York's case, the levels of spending are roughly the same between downstate and upstate. The imbalance of money flow is mostly just because the wealthier part of the state is paying more per capita in taxes on account of being wealthier.

 

Is this the same thing that is happening with Catalonia? Or is the Spanish government actually spending less per capita there than they are elsewhere? In the latter circumstance I would say you have a decent case for independence. In the former case, it's less clear cut.

[TekindusT 3,809]

Check the numbers by yourself. These are fresh, coming from the Spanish general budget approved a few days ago:

Next year, Catalonia will be the third least funded region* in per capita terms. It may look logical as it is an industrialized and """"rich"""" area, but as I said before, this investment is half of the money collected in taxes.

The difference between Catalonia and the Basque Country is that the Basque Counrty has the power to decide first how much tax money do they keep and how much goes to the central govt for its redistribution. This anomaly was created back in the late 70s and early 80s when each region's state basic law was enacted.

(*) All Spanish regions have powers roughly similar to an American state or a German Bundesland, but the English-speaking media keeps calling them regions. I will do so too, to avoid complicating the thread.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Again, I wouldn't be too sure that the 26 other countries would be too happy having the biggest benefit recipient tell them to turn down a reasonably developed, enthusiastic prospective member.

 

27 (unless you are assuming the UK has left already at that point

 

And whether they are happy or not is irrelevant. Spain has a veto, and there is nothing the rest of the EU can do about that. And if you think that Spain won't be allowed to use that veto, consider that Greece has been blocking Macedonia over entering the EU because they don't like their name. I'm pretty sure the rest of the EU will allow Spain to veto Catalonia because they seceded from Madrid.  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Referendum will proceed despite Spanish government.

 

Off again, on again.

[Sabretooth78 808]

So the issue is that there is a major deficit between what Catalonia pays in taxes and what it receives in government funding, in effect they are subsidizing the rest of the country.

 

This is a concept which is actually quite familiar to me as we have basically the same issue in New York to a lesser extent: New York City and the rest of downstate every year pays more than 10 billion in state taxes more that it receives in state funding. The reason is basically the same: downstate is growing and has a robust economy, but much of upstate is struggling and stagnant. You do occasionally get people downstate complaining about how they are subsidizing upstate and saying that New York should be split into two states to fix this problem. But this has never been a serious consideration.

 

Here is the thing though: at least in New York's case, the levels of spending are roughly the same between downstate and upstate. The imbalance of money flow is mostly just because the wealthier part of the state is paying more per capita in taxes on account of being wealthier.

I'm not sure it applies to the Catalan cause, but I think New York's problem is a double-edged sword.  Downstate does subsidize upstate; that much is undeniable.

 

However, upstate is hamstrung by a NYC-interest dominated legislature and the attendant laws and social programs geared towards a megacity which simply do not and cannot work when applied to average sized cities and rural areas.  Heck, the state is so NYC-centric that even the Thruway is numbered backwards as compared to the rest of the country!  The tax outlays to support such programs are onerous to say the least and it has basically conspired to depopulate upstate since the 1960s.  It then becomes a vicious circle which nobody in Albany seems to have the wherewithal to break - aside from being too cozy and overpaid and basically having no motivation to fix the system short of collapse.  Which it will, some day I look forward to.

 

Even with all that, the state still relies on taxes on Wall Street bonuses to meet the budget (last I heard, before the collapse in 2009 it was something on the order of 20% of all revenue?), a problem 48 other states seem to manage well enough without (California excluded - an example of one state that is screwed up beyond all hope).

[jmsepe 2,038]

It is not like the Spanish government can really do something about this referendum but looking at Scotland, will this end up like another bench warmer? I wonder what's up with EU and all of these referendums for independence. 

[TekindusT 3,809]

Not really happy with these news. After yesterday's meeting of the pro-referendum parties, which finished at 11 pm, the general sensation both on the separatist and unionist parties is that the chances for a serious referendum are almost dead.

 

Right now, it looks like there is no chance of using the official voters census, and the polling would be made in some yet unknown premises and the voter should register as a voter on the same day of the referendum. This, of course, will make that only the "Yes" voters will go to vote, while the "No" voters will not recognize this referendum attempt as something legit, and thus, they will not vote. On this case, the "Yes" would reach an astronomic quota, but with a very low legitimity. Catalonia would be regarded as an aspiring banana republic in this case.

 

My opinion? Call to new elections, and the parties will need to explicitly say if they are on the "Yes" or the "No" side. The election will be polarized on this aspect, and the party that doesn't leave their opinion clear will lose votes. After this, if the openly separatist party wins (ERC) by majority, there could be the chance for an unilateral declaration of independence. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Starting a new topic on City States.

[Gannet 34]

Balkanization! Woohoo! The more the better!

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Certainly will wreck the current civilization muddle quicker. 

[TekindusT 3,809]

I think you guys should definetely take a look to this: What's going on in Catalonia?

 

Tomorrow is the day. November 9th. It's finally a non-binding consultation organized by the government of Catalonia and independentist organisations, legally unrecognised by the central government. Actually, the Spanish government has started a tour de force this last week with a legal offensive against to the consultation. This includes sabotaging, threats to Catalan public servants, movement of military troops in to Catalonia... But it seems they're not getting too much success.

 

Tomorrow you will find me on the Catalonia government office in Berlin, holding my ballot and dropping it on a box. Me and several millions of Catalans will be voting, this means, doing an activity deemed illegal by the Spanish central government. The same government that blatantly uses all the power of the judicial branch of the state against Catalonia. They call this "democracy".

 

Like we cared. We know who are the real democrats in here.

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

Isn't there more than likely going to be a strong yes to Catlan independence? If that does happen then I predict two things:

1. The US and the international community will condemn the vote and declare it either rigged or invalid or both.

2. Spain will block Catalonian independence and may even bring in the army- Ukraine style.

 

And so in a year or so time we will be hearing reports about Catlonian separatists and rebels. 'Cos the people made their democratic decision, just not the one the Spanish government wanted.