Student dishonesty

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

It that piece of parchment worth anything?

 

Wonder how frequent this is in other countries?  What good is a degree if you really didn't do any work?  Be warned, the world will catch up to you.

 

 

[Larks2242 251]

HAHA that is genius, people really getting creative now, I don't really see any problem with it if the person is getting compensation for their work.

 

The real crime is that they are using a windows XP laptop

[Easy Bakes 253]

It that piece of parchment worth anything?

 

Wonder how frequent this is in other countries?  What good is a degree if you really didn't do any work?  Be warned, the world will catch up to you.

Subtle joke misspelling the topic title?

 

What no one just asks for hand typed/written papers anymore?

 

"Students now have to work harder to conceal plagiarism when it's going on," said Richard Kleer, the dean of arts at the University of Regina.

"They used to be lazy in the past, and we could surprise them. But now they know we're using it.”

 

working to circumvent the program? just write it your self right?

+ every thing  about almost any subject  in university's has already been written and probably written well

1000 times, anything most people could write will be copying someone somewere

[Ocram's Razr 964]

I don't like academic dishonesty but I am not surprised that there are students who would rather party than work hard. They are usually spoiled rich kids.

--Ocram

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

HAHA that is genius, people really getting creative now, I don't really see any problem with it if the person is getting compensation for their work.

 

The real crime is that they are using a windows XP laptop

This kind of attitude is not only sad, it is downright criminal.  As a retired professor, I have encountered these lazy illegitimate beings on many occasions.  It just increases the burden of people who have to mark this garbage and there is no more compensation other than the satisfaction of handing out zeros and fails.  Students who appeal wind up in front of an academic tribunal and will probably be expelled.

 

If these scam artists went to jail for a while, they might get a better education there than the one they are avoiding in school.  It also increases the burden on HR personnel hiring new graduates.  They essentially have to examine the bona fides of recent graduates and test their level of actual knowledge.  This costs society more bucks than I care to try to count.

 

Would you put your life in the hands of some architect if you couldn't be sure he could even design your house?  Have you ever wondered why professional societies are entered only by examination?  Thimk.

[Duke87 1,070]

Would you put your life in the hands of some architect if you couldn't be sure he could even design your house?  Have you ever wondered why professional societies are entered only by examination?  Thimk.

 

If a career depends on writing rather than crunching numbers, there probably isn't an opportunity to cause anyone physical harm through ineptitude. I suppose an engineering student could just as easily pay someone to do his homework for him, but that requires far more specialized expertise and thus would be more difficult. Especially if it has to be handwritten, that can't be done by someone located remotely and the professor might recognize that it isn't your handwriting.

 

And it doesn't really help you pass the class unless you're gifted enough to not need to do the homework to learn the material, since you can't hire someone to sit in class and take an exam for you (because, y'know, they'll notice it isn't you).

 

 

At any rate, in the long run you only cheat yourself. If you manage to get good grades in school without learning the material by cheating, it won't take future employers long to recognize that you are incompetent - and they will respond to their experiences with you accordingly.

[jmsepe 2,039]

Speaking of dishonestly. here in the Philippines one of the biggest and most controversial issues about such just recently happened. It'a about a cadet who was late for 2 minutes and lied about his tardiness. The result? He was stripped by the Philippine Military Academy (PMA) honor committee of the possible awards he could get. If he did not lied, he would have graduated with second honors.

 

LINK.

 

For me, dishonesty at school is a clear representation of your values and work ethics. More than being incompetent at your workplace in the long run, the matter here is that your dishonesty will also reflect at other aspects of your life. Educational systems might be somehow flawed for giving the same examination style to different courses and degrees but it does justify the means for cheating? Let's say e.g. that in the long run, one man who has a particular degree would be given a task by his employer which is somehow not in his field, would that also mean that he would cheat in order to fulfill the expectations of his employer? What I mean is that one should not just focus on his major subjects but rather in totality as a whole. At the end of the day, as students, it is our responsibility to study and I find no reason to complain about that. 

[NMUSpidey 3,956]

I've come to truly despise the "get ahead by any means necessary, especially if it's easy" mentality people take in their lives.  It's not just in one area, either, it's in everything.  Then they grow up and have a crappy marriage (because a good one takes work) and raise spoiled, rotten, selfish kids (because giving them whatever they want makes them SHUT UP), and generally get in other people's way in ways that you could not even imagine unless you were a very talented writer.  I'd go after the ones doing the writing, and then go after their biggest clients.  I'd up the difficulty of getting into college and in a perfect world I'd remove the stigma that trades and other non-college routes of employment that have been unfairly colored.

 

It does make sense that there are people out there, a LOT of people out there, who would do this and think it's a good thing.  But making sense doesn't mean it's a good thing.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The workplace is an extension of the learning experience.  If you are not qualified to learn in the first place you will have great difficulty.  Academic subjects, no matter how arcane, are not equivalent to work experience where what you do affects others in the real world.  It doesn't take long to expose a fake in most businesses.

 

@NMUSpidey:  You posted while I was writing the above.  What you say makes a lot of sense.  Since the end of WW II things academic have loosened up to the point that the system has become an educatering facility rather than an educational institution.  To qualify to enter any university course when I was in secondary school you had to write Department of Education Examinations and achieve standing in at least nine subjects, some of which were mandatory depending on which university stream you were entering.  Because I was entering the science/engineering stream I had to have two English credits, two foreign language credits, three mathematics (algebra, geometry, and trigonometry), and two science credits (chemistry, physics or biology) and if you applied for a scholarship you were required to write a problems paper which was a nexial test of your comprehension of the relationship between your other subjects.  These examinations were set by various faculties of the universities in Ontario in consultation, and were no walk in the park.  They tended to test each learning goal rather exhaustively.

 

Over the years, this has gone by the board.  It was in full force in 1955 when I graduated secondary school.  The year my sister, who is 11 years my junior, entered the departmental exams had been abolished, and finals run by each post-secondary institution were used.  By the time my son entered the post secondary system university entrance qualifications had dropped to achieving six Ontario Academic Credits (OACs) which could be undertaken in any year of post secondary work past the first. 

 

The system is a cheat.  My son got the six credits, and graduated with extra credits from the University of Western Ontario with a solid degree in Philosophy.  When he wanted to take a further certificate in medical radiology, he was refused admission because he didn't have an OAC in calculus.  The system ignored his Phil. degree which included the Philosophy of Mathematics because he wasn't 'qualified' in one mechanical art which anyone can learn by rote.  Lack of specificity (streaming) has softened up the system so that just about anyone can attend university, but the true meaning of a university education is ignored by the system itself.

[Duke87 1,070]

I'd go after the ones doing the writing

 

How, though? They are not students at the university, so the university cannot discipline them. And they are not doing anything illegal, so law enforcement can't touch them either. You'd have to have government step in and pass a law specifically banning this practice.

 

Which, I suppose, they might do if more public attention were focused on the issue.

[Zelgadis 638]

As an English teacher, I come across plagiarism quite frequently. 

 

When I catch a cheater, something I often tell them is, "With all the time and effort it took for you to plagiarize this, it would have been easier for you to have done the work yourself." Every single time I say this, I receive a blank stare in return. Then, the inevitable whining and begging commences.

 

I have a simple policy. If you cheat and I find out, you're done for. If you cheat, and have a change of heart before I find it myself and tell me, then we can work something out. I have had students come to me with a change of heart on a few occasions.

 

It's nearly impossible to catch those who pay for custom essays. As for everyone else? Well, put the fish in the barrel and blast away. I had one twit who wrote an entire paragraph on Honda plagiarized from a free essay website. He just changed phrases like "safety features" to "wellbeing characteristics." Hey, moron. Did you think I wouldn't notice that using "wellbeing characteristics" in place of "safety features" was rather odd?

[jmsepe 2,039]

I might not be teacher but as a student, I can definitely argue that most of the time if not all the time, it will be a what we call student responsibility. Whether the teacher notices or not, the burden of accepting the further consequences is on the student's shoulder. This is just my point, I know everybody wants short cuts, I myself sometimes copy assignments from my classmates, cheating is inevitable, it has existed since immemorial but then again just because its there, it does not automatically implies it correct. Personally, I feel guilty about copying too and as I have stated in former post, it's the student's task to study and pass. Thus, cheating at all levels should not be tolerated. If a student will cheat at small things such as that then how about the bigger things that have yet to come?

[Ocram's Razr 964]

I haven't cheated or plagiarized since Middle School. Sometimes I collaborate with my classmates on homework and other things but my work is always unique from anything anyone else has ever done. I did some things that might have been considered "paraphrase plagiarism" before I knew that I was doing it (and before my teacher told us what it was and not to do it). However, I always cite the source material (not always "in-line") and I don't copy word-for-word. I have worked very hard at creating original papers for myself and only copying when I require a quote or two for a paper (in which case it is treated as a quote and I provide the proper citation). I sometimes use my own brand of dry humor in my papers so everything that I write has my signature/style in it.

--Ocram

[CapTon 592]

Now; this may sound slightly weird, idiotic, whatever, but I like writing essays, reports, etc. I like writing in general.

 

What I don't understand is why students would want to cheat their way through school. Do they not realize that once they get out of college, and they go to get some job at some employer, that the employer will realize that they have absolutely no education on their field and will fire them on the spot? McDonald's just had an opening.

[NMUSpidey 3,956]

Now; this may sound slightly weird, idiotic, whatever, but I like writing essays, reports, etc. I like writing in general.

 

What I don't understand is why students would want to cheat their way through school. Do they not realize that once they get out of college, and they go to get some job at some employer, that the employer will realize that they have absolutely no education on their field and will fire them on the spot? McDonald's just had an opening.

 

Part of gaining employment is knowing the right people and having a bit of luck.  Some cheaters are not above lying and scamming their way into what they think they deserve.  They might get shafted after it's apparent that they're lying cheaters, but on the other hand there are plenty of incompetent people all up and down the food chain of any given company.  Being able to convincingly scam (or at the very least whine) your way into what you think you deserve is a skill, and there are plenty of (most likely incredibly spoiled) people out there who spend their lives honing it.

 

 

How, though? They are not students at the university, so the university cannot discipline them. And they are not doing anything illegal, so law enforcement can't touch them either. You'd have to have government step in and pass a law specifically banning this practice.

 

Which, I suppose, they might do if more public attention were focused on the issue.

 

Heh, I hadn't actually thought that far ahead when I posted the first time.  I had a thought that you have to go to the source of something to do away with it, and certainly the providers of the falsified papers are a source.  I think very clearly their motivation is money.  Therefore, one could simply offer the essay writers more money than they make writing and selling their essays. It's not like we're talking about people with dignity.  But on the other hand, it might just be another symptom of a deeper problem: the lazy, the liars, and the cheaters being lazy, lying, and cheating.  Trying to stamp it out may only be an exercise in futility.  Lazy people, liars and cheaters have been trying to game whatever system they inhabit, or at the very least take every shortcut they can find, throughout the entire history of mankind.  We can only just stay aware that they exist and try to minimize the damage they inflict on those who trust them.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Persons who abet student cheating by writing for them are nothing more than intellectual whores prostituting their knowledge.  They should all be exposed with the highest possible publicity.  As long as they get away with it, and don't get splashed all over the news media, they will continue.  A little notoriety would help with suppressing these people.

 

"There ought to be a law"?  How?  Which freedom will you abrogate to stop them?  Only the bright light of publicity will stop even some of them.

 

Detecting cheats is not really all that hard and it is getting easier thanks to the large, comprehensive computer systems that are being used as a counter to them.  However, there is also not enough publicity involved in disciplining such cheats.  Academic records are kept, but often not referenced if not mentioned.  Some kind of public registry is needed.

[Duke87 1,070]

When I catch a cheater, something I often tell them is, "With all the time and effort it took for you to plagiarize this, it would have been easier for you to have done the work yourself." Every single time I say this, I receive a blank stare in return.

 

I think the level of truth to that statement varies from person to person. For a lot of people, modifying something which already exists is a lot easier than building something from scratch - not because it's less work, but because it's easier to figure out. I know this all too well since I am one of those people. Too many times as a student I spent an hour staring at a blank page when trying to write a paper because mentally I just can't go and fill an utter void with substance, I need some framework to follow, something to start with.

 

Of course, if you're smart, you realize that you can look at things other people have written for ideas without directly plagiarizing their work. And if you're smart, you'll also realize that if you do plagiarize stuff you are going to get caught and get in trouble.

 

Now, I did once take a paper I had written for a previous class with a similar assignment and modify it slightly to reuse it. But since I was the one who wrote the original, that's not plagiarism, it's just being efficient.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^ Ah!  Rationalization.  Ain't it wunnerful.

 

Most teacher, including me, will tell you ways of getting past writer's block, if you bother to ask and/or listen.  There is nothing wrong with gathering intelligence provided you have the wherewithal to employ it correctly.  The real dolts are the ones who expect to get away with such things.  Much harder to do, by the way, in the sciences than the arts.  Also, easier to catch.

[Zelgadis 638]

 

Now, I did once take a paper I had written for a previous class with a similar assignment and modify it slightly to reuse it. But since I was the one who wrote the original, that's not plagiarism, it's just being efficient.

 

 

In my school, that is considered "self-plagiarism." The consequences are the same unless you have explicit permission from a teacher to use it.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Go get 'em, Ian.  I've never been so glad to be retired.

[Duke87 1,070]

 

 

Now, I did once take a paper I had written for a previous class with a similar assignment and modify it slightly to reuse it. But since I was the one who wrote the original, that's not plagiarism, it's just being efficient.

 

 

In my school, that is considered "self-plagiarism." The consequences are the same unless you have explicit permission from a teacher to use it.

 

Now there's a draconian policy. Isn't the problem with plagiarism supposed to be that it's wrong to take other people's work and claim it's yours? I fail to see any moral dilemma with reusing my own work. I mean, if you make a BAT and upload it at SC4D, nobody is going to accuse you of plagiarism if you also upload it on the STEX here - since, after all, if it's your work, you can do with it as you please.

 

Now, if the argument is that you want to insist students do all their work from scratch for each assignment... I don't see the point of that. That's not how it works in the real world. In the real world, when you are asked to write up a health and safety plan for a new contract, you will not be writing it from scratch, you will be taking a generic plan which your company already has written and tailoring it to the specific needs of the new contract. Which is okay because your company owns the intellectual property you're modifying.

 

This issue also reminds me of a problem I encountered with elementary school spelling assignments. Every week we would have ten spelling words, and one of our assignments would be to use those ten words in a sentence. When I was in third grade, I would sit down and try to figure out ways to use as many of the words in the same sentence as possible, so I could minimize the number of sentences I had to write. My teacher took no issue with this and praised my creativity. When I then went onto fourth grade, I had the same type of spelling assignment, but with a different teacher. This teacher, who I HATED, had the opposite reaction: she told me off for being a smart aleck and said I had to write ten sentences, no cutting corners by putting multiple words in one sentence. I threw a fit.

 

 

Here, then, is the fundamental problem I have with this sort of policy, as seen at your school and with my fourth grade teacher: when you give kids very rigid instructions on how exactly they have to do things and don't allow them to do anything unconventional, you hurt them because you stifle their creativity and you teach them simply how to follow instructions, not how to think critically. If you want to educate students to be intelligent, they need to be ENCOURAGED when they come up with a creative solution to a problem, not told they're doing it wrong and that's not acceptable. Teach kids to think outside the box, eh?

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Now, I did once take a paper I had written for a previous class with a similar assignment and modify it slightly to reuse it. But since I was the one who wrote the original, that's not plagiarism, it's just being efficient.

 

In my school, that is considered "self-plagiarism." The consequences are the same unless you have explicit permission from a teacher to use it.

 

Now there's a draconian policy. Isn't the problem with plagiarism supposed to be that it's wrong to take other people's work and claim it's yours? I fail to see any moral dilemma with reusing my own work. I mean, if you make a BAT and upload it at SC4D, nobody is going to accuse you of plagiarism if you also upload it on the STEX here - since, after all, if it's your work, you can do with it as you please.

 

Now, if the argument is that you want to insist students do all their work from scratch for each assignment... I don't see the point of that. That's not how it works in the real world. In the real world, when you are asked to write up a health and safety plan for a new contract, you will not be writing it from scratch, you will be taking a generic plan which your company already has written and tailoring it to the specific needs of the new contract. Which is okay because your company owns the intellectual property you're modifying.

 

This issue also reminds me of a problem I encountered with elementary school spelling assignments. Every week we would have ten spelling words, and one of our assignments would be to use those ten words in a sentence. When I was in third grade, I would sit down and try to figure out ways to use as many of the words in the same sentence as possible, so I could minimize the number of sentences I had to write. My teacher took no issue with this and praised my creativity. When I then went onto fourth grade, I had the same type of spelling assignment, but with a different teacher. This teacher, who I HATED, had the opposite reaction: she told me off for being a smart aleck and said I had to write ten sentences, no cutting corners by putting multiple words in one sentence. I threw a fit.

 

 

Here, then, is the fundamental problem I have with this sort of policy, as seen at your school and with my fourth grade teacher: when you give kids very rigid instructions on how exactly they have to do things and don't allow them to do anything unconventional, you hurt them because you stifle their creativity and you teach them simply how to follow instructions, not how to think critically. If you want to educate students to be intelligent, they need to be ENCOURAGED when they come up with a creative solution to a problem, not told they're doing it wrong and that's not acceptable. Teach kids to think outside the box, eh?

I must say that I agree with Duke87 on this. I keep all my old papers as files on my computer(s) and/or flash drive(s) so that I can improve them and tailor them for other purposes. No teacher has ever forbade me from doing this (whether written in directions, syllabus, or spoken) and though I have only done this a couple of times (because at the community college level, there are not many papers to be written). I have referenced myself (and sometimes cited myself such as 'as I have written/said before' in papers).

On a different note, Liberal Arts Colleges, Party Colleges, and encouragement of student loans (which are often done by these colleges) are all major factors in degree inflation and tuition inflation. I have often seen that student loans are rarely paid off in certain fields and this can be devastating for quite a few students. Overpaying for what pretty much amounts to a useless degree benefits the degree mills that are what many colleges have become far more than the students; as a matter of fact, it is usually a recipe for disaster. These "universities" sneer down upon trade, technical, and community colleges while offering less useful "education experiences" for a vastly higher price than any of these "lowly" community colleges. Many of these "universities" and Liberal Arts Colleges jack up their prices while offering "academic scholarships" for those with GPA's as low as 2.8 (low B) and encourage wealthy (often white and privileged) students while ignoring underprivileged but high performing students (who could potentially earn higher scholarships). A good portion of the higher education facilities in the Western World (especially the USA but also Canada and UK to lesser extents) are actually ruining the economy.

--Ocram

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Seems like a lot of blather for something so trivial.  I see nothing wrong with citing a previously published paper by oneself.  However, if it is unpublished, then a copy of the original paper can be enclosed with the cite.  Revising such a paper and handing it in as new work, however, does raise ethical problems.  This kind of thing can wind up in the hands of the Academic Adjudication function of the college.

[Meg 368]

A good portion of the higher education facilities in the Western World (especially the USA but also Canada and UK to lesser extents) are actually ruining the economy.

 

 

Duke, didn't you post a link to an good article about this a while ago?

 

As I recall, it likened student loans to underwater mortgages:   the cost of the loan is more than the value of the asset.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Student loans are a means of indenturing college graduates to the banks.  The ethics of this is questionable to say the least.  Access to a university education is not a right but a privilege and it needs to be earned.  If a student is really serious about getting a university education there are several routes other than loans or daddy pays:

 

1. Scholarships.  This needs two things on the part of the student -- intelligence and desire.  If a student is smart enough and has enough get up and go, he should be able to get one of these.  However, there are not enough of these to go around.
    
2. Pre-accumulation of fees and expenses either by working while in post-secondary and saving, or working after secondary, perhaps while earning post-secondary credits part time.  Students who do not live in university towns are, perhaps, shut out of earning credits or maybe not if they are willing to suffer the slings and arrows of correspondence work.  Learning on-line is now an option that didn't exist in my time.  Nevertheless, I acquired several business credits by correspondence.

 

In either of the above cases, most students will become "greasy grinds" in the opinion of their peers, but will wind up in most cases earning a lot more than those peers ever dreamed of.

 

Then there is the option of not going to a university at all.  There are lots of trades just dying for people, and some of them earn more than some university grads, and often sooner.  Go price a master plumber's rates sometime or a master electrician.  These qualifications require no less effort than getting a degree but have the advantage of work and earn while studying.  Apprentices may or may not make a lot but once a person becomes a journeyman life gets easier.  If you want to become a master carpenter or cabinetmaker, just remember that these are few and far between these days, but there are lots of people who end up there that started as framers. Entry level trade jobs are not necessarily dead ends.

[Duke87 1,070]

 

A good portion of the higher education facilities in the Western World (especially the USA but also Canada and UK to lesser extents) are actually ruining the economy.

 

 

Duke, didn't you post a link to an good article about this a while ago?

 

As I recall, it likened student loans to underwater mortgages:   the cost of the loan is more than the value of the asset.

 

 

Yeah,

 

It's interesting how nearly two years ago when I posted that, it was the first time I'd heard that argument. Since then, it has become a somewhat prevailing point of view. The bubble has not yet burst, but we have started seeing people reevaluating their decisions of where, when, and whether to go to college. People have realized you can no longer automatically assume it will eventually pay for itself - a college degree no longer guarantees you a significant level of future income to pay off some of the more expensive ones, nor does it even guarantee you employment at all.

 

Meanwhile, the game is kept up by virtue of the fact that student loans are now run largely by the federal government rather than private banks. The federal government has extraordinary abilities to collect from people who default (there have been stories of people having their social security disability checks garnished to pay off their student loans), and it is not prone to a "crash" the same way private markets are. Nonetheless, there may come a point where congress realizes that what they are feeding is unsustainable and decides to pull out. When that happens, tuition rates will fall because there will no longer be easy money to pay for them.

 

Of course, the opposite could happen: a lot of countries have the government actively subsidize the cost of higher education. Washington could decide to follow that lead and start giving people money to go to college rather than loaning it to them. This would also drive down tuition, although perhaps not as effectively so, since private universities could easily respond by raising their tuition - generally when college is government-subsidized it is also government-run, as is already the case with state schools in the US. You would probably need to build more public universities and not offer subsidies for private colleges in order for this to work (by doing that you would force them to lower their prices to compete).

 

As with anything else, though, the problem then is: and pay for it how?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Actually, if admission to university was by strict examination tuition could cease to exist.  Many jumped up institutions would also cease to exists since they are just there to fill a capital need.

 

Post-secondary education falls into two categories: Professions (university) and Trades (trade schools), all of which could be tax supported 100% at a considerable hike in general taxes.  If junior can't qualify for either after completing high-school I'd be highly surprised and feel that I'd been cheated by the lower schools.

 

Let everyone, regardless of fiscal status, have every opportunity.  And let's stop sending uninterested kids to university who have no serious intent of entering a profession.

 

Sports scholarships should be discontinued.

[NMUSpidey 3,956]

I love college football, but realistically, outside of a handful of college programs (Ohio State, Texas, probably Alabama, Auburn, USC, a few others), major college sports programs are huge money losers for the universities.  Factor in pressure to start paying the athletes since their likenesses are used in video games (EA Sports will no longer make NCAA Football games because of this) and things are on the brink of falling apart.  On top of that, there is serious concern over the health of the players' noggins what with the concussion problem, and American football is probably about to pass its peak and begin its decline.  It makes me very, very sad, but things change all the time.

 

But I feel we have drifted ever-so-slightly off topic.  Weren't we talking about cheaters here?  Shouldn't we get back to that?  Wonder-Spidey powers, activate!  Form of... WET BLANKET.