Droric's BATs

[Droric 99]

Hi all.  I am looking to get some advise on a El-Rail station I am currently working on.  I have a few screenshots of the model but am having issues getting it to look 'just right'.  I think the in game render photo listed below is much darker then it should be since I had the Final Gather turned off in Bat4Max.  I am also having some issues with lines showing up in the model in game after the FSH import.  It appears to be right along the edges of the individual FSH's themselves.

 

The overall dimensions of the station will be 7x2 with the station occupying 3x2 tiles with 2 tiles overhanging on each side.

 

Oh an yes this is for unreleased NAM content before anyone asks  I am a fellow NAMite.

 

Tools: Bat4Max v5, 3ds max, BAT, Photoshop, (also have V-ray but was unable to find a suitable lighting rig)

 

Without further ado I present my project I have been working on for the last few weeks in hopes of some constructive criticism as well as any help to get this 'production ready'.

 

Thanks in Advance!

 

MAX Previews:

 

 

 

In Game: (i think its too dark because I didn't wait the 2 hours for the FG and just disabled it):

 

 

 

 

Reflections Added:

 

[dubaidude303 1,119]

Oh wow!! That looks awesome!

[MandelSoft 2,769]

It may be important to know what quality you use when you render the model. HD models have the tendency to get a bit grainy in Zoom 5.

[Droric 99]

Oh wow!! That looks awesome!

Thanks dubaidude303!

 

 

It may be important to know what quality you use when you render the model. HD models have the tendency to get a bit grainy in Zoom 5.

 

I render in SD using Simfox's render scripts in Bat4Max.  I don't plan on using Zoom 6 until I start my next project which will be for some railway signals that are modeled to look like Chicago style signals (or maybe another NAM project?)

 

FYI This is droric from SC4D but I figure you guessed that.  I apparently can't change my display name till next year

[Darknono35 3,138]

It's looks very nice and cool. I hope to see some stuff made by you on the STEX one day

Keep up this good work

[Droric 99]

It's looks very nice and cool. I hope to see some stuff made by you on the STEX one day

Keep up this good work

 

Thanks for the kind comments.  I do actually have one file currently on the STEX.  The DAMN-NAM, check it out

 

 

 

From the jist of the comments it doesn't sound like I have too many issues with my BAT as is and maybe I should move forward and start the nightlighting.

[Huston 5,798]

Amazing BAT there, I'm rather looking forward to how your nightlighting goes!

[T Wrecks 10,209]

How do you create the reflections?

[Toothless Stitch 2,901]

To be honest, they look  like boxes with a plane texture ...

[Droric 99]

 

Amazing BAT there, I'm rather looking forward to how your nightlighting goes! 

 

Thanks Huston.  I have been working my butt off trying to learn Max better so I can get this right.  It sounds like I've had at least some success.

 

 

How do you create the reflections?

 

I have a plane on the ground with two images mapped to them.  I marked it as invisible to camera in the object properties.

 

Picture's speak louder than words so here's an imgur link of my scene setup.  https://imgur.com/xsLsUi9

 

 

To be honest, they look  like boxes with a plane texture ...

 

If anyone has any tips on how to get materials to emulate what it looks like in real life I would be grateful.  They indeed look like boxes with (somewhat plain) texture's in real life.  Here is a picture of the said station as it stands in Chicago.

 

 

I feel it looks much too dark.  I spent the majority of my CPU time last night letting this render in different lighting environments since 3ds max 2014 doesn't quite match the game.  The color tint is fine but the gamma is off so it's all a matter of messing with the exposure settings.  I got this render last night but I think it is just ever so slightly too bright still.  I also removed the reflections but if anyone has opinions if they should stay or go that would be great!

 

[Droric 99]

Um not sure how to delete this... mispost

[Darknono35 3,138]

Beautiful in-game picture and great to see this piece used on a NWM road . Your glass are splendid

[Jasoncw 11,841]

It's coming along well but I think there's something wrong if it's taking so long to render.

[Droric 99]

Beautiful in-game picture and great to see this piece used on a NWM road . Your glass are splendid

 

Thanks what picture do you like most regarding the glass?  The one with reflections or the one without?  I am trying to decide what looks better.  I am having issues with the reflections too and getting it to render right.  max is hard 

 

It's coming along well but I think there's something wrong if it's taking so long to render.

 

Yeah I agree... I just was running through some free tutorials for the lite version of a scattering plugin rendering in vray.  My pc is rendering a 3 mil poly scene in like 20 seconds here in this tutorial scene... I'm new to 3ds max I just got my copy about 2 weeks ago so I may not be doing something correctly.  Does anyone here ever use additional lights in a BAT?  I was reading some old threads from simfox but i'm having trouble discerning if it's still relevant or not.  I seem to have some issues getting my lighting right so maybe I need to add lights.  This is only the day view I haven't started the night I was working out the kinks with 3ds max 2014 and getting the model right before thinking about that or TEing it or even the props.

[Darknono35 3,138]

 

Beautiful in-game picture and great to see this piece used on a NWM road . Your glass are splendid

 

Thanks what picture do you like most regarding the glass?  The one with reflections or the one without?  I am trying to decide what looks better.  I am having issues with the reflections too and getting it to render right.  max is hard 

 

 

The picture who I prefer at this time, it's the second without reflections. But, in my opinion, your final version should have reflections, it will more realistic and beautiful. It' all the interest of the glass structures

 

Your reflections are too washed. Maybe if you down the IOR and the reflections level, you can get an better result. But it's probably come from your ground map too, try with an sharper map.

[Jasoncw 11,841]

Yeah, you're right to be cautious about the old stuff.  You shouldn't need to add any extra lights.

 

I haven't been paying much attention to the new releases since they're not relevant to me right now, but I think mental ray in the newest version of max has been changed, or at least the interface has been changed.  So the scripts (which is all bat4max is) that automatically set up the rendering settings might not be able to set those up anymore.  And instead, the default settings may not be good for BATing purposes.

[Droric 99]

 

 

Beautiful in-game picture and great to see this piece used on a NWM road . Your glass are splendid

 

The picture who I prefer at this time, it's the second without reflections. But, in my opinion, your final version should have reflections, it will more realistic and beautiful. It' all the interest of the glass structures

 

Your reflections are too washed. Maybe if you down the IOR and the reflections level, you can get an better result. But it's probably come from your ground map too, try with an sharper map.

 

The map I am using is 8000x6500 so I don't think the map resolution is the issue.  The issue is I can't figure out how to get these arch and design materials to do what I want.  Every time I think I'm getting close with the reflections I end up taking 2 steps back and only one forward.  This BAT might take a few more weeks to complete since my knowledge is limited when it comes to 3ds max.  I just got my Student copy a couple weeks ago.

 

I will try messing with the IOR and reflections levels.  I keep ending up with glass that's too dark when I add a reflection to the environment node.  I gave up on using the plane since it seems to break the alpha channel and my glass no longer is transparent on the platform.

 

 

 

Yeah, you're right to be cautious about the old stuff.  You shouldn't need to add any extra lights.

 

I haven't been paying much attention to the new releases since they're not relevant to me right now, but I think mental ray in the newest version of max has been changed, or at least the interface has been changed.  So the scripts (which is all bat4max is) that automatically set up the rendering settings might not be able to set those up anymore.  And instead, the default settings may not be good for BATing purposes.

 

I have been slowly rewriting the BAT4MAX scripts and just finished the BuildingMill.ms script to fix the 2014 gamma issues.  I need to work on the let there be light script once I figure out proper values for optimal rendering in 3ds max 2014.  Do arch + design materials slow down the rendering process signifigantly?  Thats all I have used in this project because it was my understanding that those are the superior materials to be using for mental ray.

[Jasoncw 11,841]

The arch & design materials are made/optimized for mental ray and are the best to use.  They're universal materials and you can make almost anything with them.  When it comes to BATing it's the only material you'll ever need. 

 

There's a "presets" dropdown box that has a bunch of presets that are basically useless, except for the glass ones.  You can just use the Thin Glass preset and you'll get standard clear glass with a subtle blue hue.  You can change the refraction color to green to make green glass, or brown to make brown glass, etc.

 

 

Good luck on your BAT4Max project.   

[Droric 99]

I am trying to get reflections from the arch and design shader but I'm having trouble.  I've tried using a background switcher map for the environment that didn't work.  I also tried mapping the jpg or hdr image to the environment slot and i couldn't get a reflection either.  I also upped the input when testing from around 0 - 20 to check if that was the issue but still nothing.  I am stumped here.  The glass I can do it's just the reflections on the MIA material that is giving me an issue. 

 

I have gotten it to work with a ground plane but even with it set to invisible to camera and only reflections/refraction visibilty enabled it destroys the alpha channel and any transparency from that.

 

if you have any advise on how to accomplish that I would be exsctatic!

[Jasoncw 11,841]

The transparency/alpha problem is sadly one that no one knows what to do about.   

 

However if you exactly recreate what is under the station (a road, etc.), then when the problem happens, a road will show through which is what you'd see anyway.  And it's also better because in general you want to be reflecting as close to the environment it will be in SC4 as possible.  So even just for normal BATs I include the sidewalk and road as part of the ground texture.

 

But yeah there's no solution for that...

[Droric 99]

Alright so I ended up ditching the arch + design material for a standard material with a raytraced shader on the reflection to add a alpha reflection map to blur up the reflections a bit.  Then I created planes on each side of the building for it to reflect but not underneith so the platform glass is still transparent.  (There may be different networks running under the glass)  Anyways this is what I came up with.

 

Before and after work of my work on Bat4max and the reflections...  Before I was artificially increasing the gamma so much it showed up blown out since the render scripts for BAT4MAX did not play nice with Max 2014. ( fixed now )

[Jasoncw 11,841]

lol, well when you asked about the arch & design material i had also written up all the other materials that you should or shouldn't use, and then i deleted it figuring there was no reason. 

 

There's no reason to ever use the raytrace map.  It's original job was to allow some limited raytracing for the scanline renderer.  But we use mental ray which is already a full raytracer.  The raytrace map and material are there just for legacy support and don't offer any functionality that the arch & design material doesn't, except that the arch & design material is optimized for mental ray and has more functionality.

 

From my understanding reading what you wrote, you used the standard material with a raytrace map so that you could have the reflections be more blurry?  If that's the case you would just reduce the glossiness of the arch & design material.

 

But anyway, our problem is that objects that are hidden to camera will be visible when they're behind transparent objects (they're invisible to camera but not invisible to reflections/refractions).  The hidden object is being refracted through the glass.  It's not really a problem with the reflections, it's a compositing problem with the alpha mask. 

 

To my knowledge this is unescapable.  but if you really want to get around the problem, you can do the export manually.  When bat4max exports it creates a folder full of renders and their corresponding alpha masks.  Then separate programs are ran to convert those pngs into .fsh files (one of maxis's image formats), which are then inserted into the .sc4model.  tbh i don't know how to do this with the current bat4max because the prompts that run the programs pop up during the process.

 

Basically you'd do an export where you get the reflections exactly how you want them, ignoring issues with the alpha mask.  You wouldn't let bat4max generate the .fsh and insert them, instead you would copy and paste the folder of the render files.  Then you'd do another export where the alpha mask is exactly as you want it, ignoring everything else.  Then you'd use the alpha masks from the one export and the normal renders from the other export, and you would put them in the same folder (you could even directly edit the images in photoshop if you wanted) and then continue with the export to make them into .fshs and insert them into the .sc4model.

 

in gamepacks\bat\ there are some .bat files which are the batch files that convert the .png into .fsh.  in gamepacks\bat\output files are a bunch of folders that have all the .png and that's also where all the .fsh will be put when they're made.  To insert the .fsh into the .sc4model manually you just open it in the reader, delete all the existing .fsh, and then right click in an open area and choose either "insert" or "compress & insert" (i forget if the .fsh files are compressed or not).

 

So the process would be something like this:

 

1.  Make and export to get the desired alphas.  Copy and paste the folder from the output files folder to keep the files safe.

2.  Make and export to get your normal renders.  Copy and paste the folder to keep the files safe.

3.  Move replace the undesired alpha files with the desired ones.

4.  Put the edited/correct folder into the output files folder.

5.  Run the .bat file associated with that building.

6.  Open the .SC4model file, delete the old .fsh and insert the new .fsh.

[Droric 99]

lol, well when you asked about the arch & design material i had also written up all the other materials that you should or shouldn't use, and then i deleted it figuring there was no reason. 

 

There's no reason to ever use the raytrace map.  It's original job was to allow some limited raytracing for the scanline renderer.  But we use mental ray which is already a full raytracer.  The raytrace map and material are there just for legacy support and don't offer any functionality that the arch & design material doesn't, except that the arch & design material is optimized for mental ray and has more functionality.

 

From my understanding reading what you wrote, you used the standard material with a raytrace map so that you could have the reflections be more blurry?  If that's the case you would just reduce the glossiness of the arch & design material.

 

But anyway, our problem is that objects that are hidden to camera will be visible when they're behind transparent objects (they're invisible to camera but not invisible to reflections/refractions).  The hidden object is being refracted through the glass.  It's not really a problem with the reflections, it's a compositing problem with the alpha mask. 

 

To my knowledge this is unescapable.  but if you really want to get around the problem, you can do the export manually.  When bat4max exports it creates a folder full of renders and their corresponding alpha masks.  Then separate programs are ran to convert those pngs into .fsh files (one of maxis's image formats), which are then inserted into the .sc4model.  tbh i don't know how to do this with the current bat4max because the prompts that run the programs pop up during the process.

 

Basically you'd do an export where you get the reflections exactly how you want them, ignoring issues with the alpha mask.  You wouldn't let bat4max generate the .fsh and insert them, instead you would copy and paste the folder of the render files.  Then you'd do another export where the alpha mask is exactly as you want it, ignoring everything else.  Then you'd use the alpha masks from the one export and the normal renders from the other export, and you would put them in the same folder (you could even directly edit the images in photoshop if you wanted) and then continue with the export to make them into .fshs and insert them into the .sc4model.

 

in gamepacks\bat\ there are some .bat files which are the batch files that convert the .png into .fsh.  in gamepacks\bat\output files are a bunch of folders that have all the .png and that's also where all the .fsh will be put when they're made.  To insert the .fsh into the .sc4model manually you just open it in the reader, delete all the existing .fsh, and then right click in an open area and choose either "insert" or "compress & insert" (i forget if the .fsh files are compressed or not).

 

So the process would be something like this:

 

1.  Make and export to get the desired alphas.  Copy and paste the folder from the output files folder to keep the files safe.

2.  Make and export to get your normal renders.  Copy and paste the folder to keep the files safe.

3.  Move replace the undesired alpha files with the desired ones.

4.  Put the edited/correct folder into the output files folder.

5.  Run the .bat file associated with that building.

6.  Open the .SC4model file, delete the old .fsh and insert the new .fsh.

 

Hmm okay that seems to make sense... I will (if i figure out the arch+design material) composite the images together since that doesn't seem too difficult to do based on what you said and makes alot of sense.

 

I still can't get the reflections I want on an arch + design material though...  The Raytrace mental ray map has the background option to map an image to use for the reflections background, which then i use to refract the image then have the planes on either side for the reflection.  I can't figure out how to map a reflection to a arch and design material.  Getting reflections on the glass with transparency without darkening the glass or opacity of the material seems like an impossible task with the arch and design material.  I have a picture of the maps so you can see what I mean...

 

I probably just lack the knowledge of how to apply a direct reflection map on an arch and design material effectively a 'fake reflection' though...

 

Are the reflections currently too fake?

 

[Droric 99]

I went back and tried again but every time I add a glass shader to the glass the inside of the building gets terribly dark...  Also when using the reflect shader I can exclude certain objects from the raytracing for that material.  The platform was giving off a very strong blue that made the building look goofy...  I was able to exclude that using the raytrace map.  If you know of a place I can read up on how to do this or a way to teach myself I would be grateful!

 

To add to this I want the reflections to only appear on the glass and not on the stainless steel and other reflective surfaces that look all colorized from the background map.  So i want to figure out how to map a reflection map to an arch and design material...

 

Blarhahgah!  UGH Okay all I needed to do was map the environment to the Mental Ray connection environment rollout at the bottom of the shader and disable the lock on it.  I was mapping to the environment standard map and it wasn't doing what I want.  It was obvious since when I tried to use that node it let me use the 'Chrome/Mirror Ball Image' which is what I wanted since I have a few full 360 degree environment maps I found on the web.

[Droric 99]

Okay so I am going to post a couple more daytime pics of the new metal I put on the side of the station.  I was having too much trouble with reflections and making them not look absolutely rediculous.  Let me know what you guys think!

 

[Droric 99]

I have a night render to post as promised.  Let me know what you guys think.

 

[Darknono35 3,138]

It's beautiful, and very realistic

Congrats for this useful piece

[dubaidude303 1,119]

Ooo nice!

[Jasoncw 11,841]

Looking good. 

[edwardjeria 503]

Jujuo

Is ameizgn