Grade School or High School, Which to Choose ?

[JimCityBuilder 14]

The question here is: Grade School or High School ?

 

People have been going on and on about what needs to be done about education in their cities and what roll which type of school/college/university has for education and tech levels. Well tech levels are straight forward; Community college raises to Tech lvl2 and University to tech lvl3 ... simples !

 

However, what does the difference in rolls played in your city for Grade School and High School, and what choices should you make selecting which one to place ? Again, if you look at them more closely you will see that they both perform the roll of raising the Sims education levels and have the impact on Tech lvl1 industry by going some ways to speeding up density for industry buildings (debatable?), and the mechanics that runs them in-game has nothing to equate to the real world senario, however it is just a simple case of mathematics to work out which one you need as I will demonstrate below:

 

Grade School = max students is 950

High School    = max students is 4800

 

Now each zoned residents has 2 kids and 6 residence (total=

 

This leads to 950= 2 X 475 kids

Therefore   2850 =6 X 475 residents

                   Total = 3325 population

 

So it goes to show that to keep all your Sims educated you will need to build a minimum of two Grade Schools to eventually get to a population level of over 5000 before you can upgrade your Town Hall to a City Hall and add a Dept of Education which allows you to add a High School to your city.

 

To fully upgraded two Grade Schools containing all the classrooms and buses will cost you 3200 simoleons per hour and educate up to1900 students. (20 students per bus)

 

A fully upgraded High School containing all the classrooms and buses will cost 3400 simoleons per hour and educate up to 4800 students. (60 students per bus)

 

Bus Stops laid out to accommodate the two Grade Schools are left in place because they can be used by the High School too, therefore their costs are additional to either type of school laid out and are essential to get all the students to school itself.

 

So in conclusion: Grade Schools are used to educate your Sims up to a sufficient population level of 5000 Sims and a minimum of two Grade schools are required to achieve this if full enrollment is wanted (and yes, the second grade School does not have to be fully upgraded with all the classrooms to reach a population of 5000 Sims total ! ) and if a Dept of Education is the first building added to your newly upgraded City Hall.

 

Then it makes sense to demolish your two Grade Schools and build one High School which will require a minimum of two additional classes and all the buses to maintain the same level of service with instant expansion of student numbers (900 free desks) at less than the previous cost of the two Grade Schools.

 

However, if you place another Dept on your upgraded City Hall then you will need to build more Grade Schools to continue to educate your Sims until the next population level allows the next upgrade. This has two problems for your city, the first is that your running costs for education will become very high very quickly, and the second and most important problem will be all those additional buses that transport only 20 students per trip to the schools will also very quickly fill up your roads at rush hour. So you will need to think very carefully about placing the Dept of Education first at upgrade to City Hall. The only thing that will help you avoid this problem is if a dept of Education is placed in another city in the region.

 

Jim

[The Avatar 1,089]

Very nice findings. This is helpful for people like me who don't know much about the game mechanics. 

[JimCityBuilder 14]

Very nice findings. This is helpful for people like me who don't know much about the game mechanics. 

You're welcome.

 

I only wish I could figure out the rest of this game ... lol

[Rhadamant5186 19]

First off, only a small fraction of your population actually needs to be educated. Each residential building has a certain population of 'students'. These students don't have an age, but when they attend ANY educational building they increase the education/tech level to the building they live in. If you have a student population of 5000, then you are correct that you would need two grade schools, but if your population is only 5000 then your student population is likely only 300-500 or so, depending on what type of residential building the students originated.

 

Also keep in mind that if you want to increase your tech level you should not even have grade schools or high schools. Students must only attend community colleges or universities for tech level to increase. Once you have a community college or university a city no longer has any need for high schools or grade schools (except if traffic is a huge issue because students commute to universities and community colleges twice a day)

 

For instance, one of my cities with a population of 340K only has a student population of 12-13K.

[JimCityBuilder 14]

I stand corrected, looking at my maths I see I had made the mistake on my original calculations which I realised after I went out and it was going round in my mind. I would like to put this right now that I'm back at a computer.

 

To correct this, each low wealth house contains 4 workers and 2 shopper giving a total of 6 to population, the 2 kids are not included in the population count. therefore to achieve a total population of 5000 you need to divide this number by 6 which gives a total of approximately 833 houses and each with 2 kids in each giving a total of approximately 1666 kids ... is this correct ? Or to put it in simple terms 6000 population require 1000 houses each with 2 kids giving 2000 kids.

 

So as you can see my point is still very valid and two Grade Schools are required because a maximum capacity Grade School has 950 students and two would provide 1990 desks to be filled with students. I have just finished re-running a city on this model and the stats in the population panel bear this out as correct;

 

Now medium wealth houses contain 2 workers 1 shopper but there are still two kids, and high wealth houses contain 2 workers 1 shopper and only 1 kid. I also took in account that there was no medium or high wealth residents into this equation by zoning outside land value areas. But when I zoned for just medium wealth residents then even more students and hence forth also more Grade Schools were required to reach the 5000 population level and with high wealth houses it is even greater.

 

The schools' themselves create medium wealth land values around themselves leading to the building of some medium wealth housing which works towards bringing the total closer to the maximum capacity for two Grade Schools to reach 5000 population level before a dept of Education can be added and a High School or even a University can be built ! plus take into account that some players create higher wealth areas to zone for each level of wealth residents to fill all the available job vacancies as i do which is what raised this issue with me in the first place.

 

i would like to apologies for the stupid mistake I made earlier but hope that this will better explain the point I was trying to make.

 

Jim

[Rhadamant5186 19]

I hope you are not using schools to increase land value!!! That's probably one of the most expensive methods for increasing land value. Toss down some high wealth parks and you'll have high wealth residences in no time. So why exactly are you using grade/high schools anyway? The way the game is programmed they are only stepping stones towards a university, sort of like how games have Tier1, 2, 3 and so on.

[JimCityBuilder 14]

w

 

I hope you are not using schools to increase land value!!! That's probably one of the most expensive methods for increasing land value. Toss down some high wealth parks and you'll have high wealth residences in no time. So why exactly are you using grade/high schools anyway? The way the game is programmed they are only stepping stones towards a university, sort of like how games have Tier1, 2, 3 and so on.

Parks are the way to raise land values and by placing them next to or near public buildings (especially police stations which actually lower values)helps to increase the coverage area for land wealth values but that is not really the point.

 

When starting a new city the first public building to set down is the town hall and then immediately after that a Grade School with appropriate bus coverage so that all the new Sims can start to get educated (actually it is the house they return to that gets the education boost) as soon as possible and to me this is any city builders first long term strategy to perfect because of the benefits of reduced crime, fires, garbage etc.

 

As I have stated, a new city needs to reach a population of over just over 5000 to be able to upgrade to the next level and to allow for the placement of the first city department and this will require two Grade Schools to provide the necessary coverage to keep all the Sims educated wouldn't you agree ? I believe that the first department to place would be the Dept of Education to allow for upgrading the education services, and the next thing to do would be to replace both of these Grade Schools with a single High School which has the immediate knock-on effect of reducing the education budget, plus this will also allow for further expansion of the city's population because the High School has plenty of room left for gradual expansion and a more efficient school bus system to accommodate all the new students that will appear which is up to 4800 students or a population of approximately 14400 which is very close to the next up grade of City Hall of 14995 population. At this point it will then be possible at the City Hall upgrade to add a Dept of Transportation which will allow all the buildings (like a Bus Terminal) that provide the first and cheapest means for connecting up to other cities across the region while at the same time further cutting traffic.

 

I cannot comment on how you build up your cities but for myself and a few of my friends we don't always have enough simoleons to move straight into purchasing a University at $88 000/$1600ph and even a Community College at $42 000/$50ph and I'm sure many other players experience the same thing in their game play too ? Plus a full infrastructure with all utilities, education and services provided will cost approximately $185 000/$3885ph which is a lot of simoleons to put together on top of all the other expenditures like road building which can be very expensive when zoning  in Sim Cities(2013) as it is a hidden cost ... because it is not like the way road building tile by tile was like in previous Sim City games ... and overall I would estimate that a fully built up city with all basic utilities and services as well as roads for sufficient zoning comes to about $250 000.

 

I would like to also add that a number of players are beginning to dispute the idea that just Universities are required to educate all the Sims; yes it is true that they get both tech level-ups and they provide education to the houses but over time the overall education levels begin to drop and crime, fires, etc start to run rampant and low wealth workers become unemployed and homeless at a very rapid rate but this does not appear to be the case in cities that keep at least a Grade School or High School (the choice being relevant to the overall numbers of low wealth workers) but the game is still fairly new and more time will need to pass to see if this is part of the intended game mechanics or yet another bug messing up everyone's gaming ?

 

So the actual point I am making is that it is essential to start with the right type of education for the Sims in a city starting with Grade Schools and moving on to High Schools to provide the most cost effective and efficient education system and thus freeing up simoleons to purchase all the other utilities and services the city will require without going bust. Then later on there will be sufficient means to set up either a Community College or University and get those tech levels up for cleaner and better cash generating Industries. But at the end of the day everyone has the choice to build their city as they choose after all the point of the game is to be a Mayor/Dictator and rule their world with kindness/ fist of steel !!!

 

Jim

[morriswalters 16]

Another kind of odd thing I observed today.  If you have a low wealth building in a higher wealth zone students may not go to school.  there are kids there but they never go to the bus.  You have to tear them down and let them rise in wealth.  Has anyone else seen this?

[anytownUSA 32]

So are you saying that once you build a high school you should turn off your grade school?  This is so different from SC4 (and real life) where all levels of education should be provided. 

[Feinte 0]

So are you saying that once you build a high school you should turn off your grade school?  This is so different from SC4 (and real life) where all levels of education should be provided. 

 

Yes, It's not efficient running  2 education buildings in your city. It looks like students always go to the highest level of education in the city over the course of time. (It's the agent system in this game makes this happens).

I build grade school and high school same time and both grade school, and high school bus starting to drop kids off to high school. 

 

It may be out of topic also but this also happens with if you have bus terminal and bus depot or double decker (Deluxe version bus) they will always go pick peoples up, or refuel at bus terminal.

[DabblerNL 3]

Another kind of odd thing I observed today.  If you have a low wealth building in a higher wealth zone students may not go to school.  there are kids there but they never go to the bus.  You have to tear them down and let them rise in wealth.  Has anyone else seen this?

I have seen the phenomenon, but I did not know that is the difference in wealth that causes it.

[JimCityBuilder 14]

So are you saying that once you build a high school you should turn off your grade school?  This is so different from SC4 (and real life) where all levels of education should be provided. 

Yes, once the High School becomes available, pause the game and demolish both your Grade Schools, then build your High School adding all the buses and just enough classes to cover the total student numbers, then start the game again. Also this is best to do after all the students have returned home therefore the High School will have all the teachers it needs before school starts the next day and all the students will now go to the High School from day one.

 

This has the effect of clearing two spaces where the Grade Schools were and reducing spending on education in your budget and your new high school can be built on the site of an old Grade School or relocated to another preferred position in your city.

 

With this now in place you can make the choice of creating a nice stable Town with a population of about 5,000 or you can expand further to create a larger City up to a population of over 14,000 without the need to build further schools but rather just continue to expand the High School to maximum capacity. The choice to build a Community College or a University is a matter for discussion on another thread.

 

Jim

[JimCityBuilder 14]

Another kind of odd thing I observed today.  If you have a low wealth building in a higher wealth zone students may not go to school.  there are kids there but they never go to the bus.  You have to tear them down and let them rise in wealth.  Has anyone else seen this?

I have not noticed this issue personally but given the game mechanics we have so far it doesn't surprise me. However with the latest update allowing us to demolish all those daft little plots that pop up in industrial zones mostly but also in residential zones too I have taken to pausing the game, demolishing these oddities as well as low wealth housing in between medium wealth housing, then demolishing on of the buildings next to it and allowing the game to rebuild over these oddities and therefore getting rid of them all together. Sometimes this doesn't work therefore I de-zone that particular spot and leave it vacant until a later date when it is time to move up in density for that area, if that makes any sense ?

[-=XL=- 1]

system to accommodate all the new students that will appear which is up to 4800 students or a population of approximately 14400 which is very close to the next up grade of City Hall of 14995 population. At this point it will then be possible at the City Hall upgrade to add a Dept of Transportation which will allow all the buildings (like a Bus Terminal) that provide the first and cheapest means for connecting up to other cities across the region while at the same time further cutting traffic.

 

Jim

 

I think your calculation about student and population is wrong.

Look at my city

You only need 3 grade school to cover pop 80k.

 

So I think you don't need Grade school until your pop is about 15k. You only will wasting your tax money. It's more efficient to build police station to fight crime.

 

And for my other city, I didn't build grade school or high school until I touch 200k pop. And after that I simply build 2 High school. to cover about 6k Student.

 

So what Rhadamant5186 is true. You can always wait for pop is enough to support expense for education, and aim for community college or University directly.

And I side with him again, about you didn't need grade school or high school to increase tech level.

 

If you pre order this game you can build Dr. Vu tower, and increase tech level cheaper than build university.

[JimCityBuilder 14]

 

system to accommodate all the new students that will appear which is up to 4800 students or a population of approximately 14400 which is very close to the next up grade of City Hall of 14995 population. At this point it will then be possible at the City Hall upgrade to add a Dept of Transportation which will allow all the buildings (like a Bus Terminal) that provide the first and cheapest means for connecting up to other cities across the region while at the same time further cutting traffic.

 

Jim

 

I think your calculation about student and population is wrong.

Look at my city

 

You only need 3 grade school to cover pop 80k.

 

So I think you don't need Grade school until your pop is about 15k. You only will wasting your tax money. It's more efficient to build police station to fight crime.

 

And for my other city, I didn't build grade school or high school until I touch 200k pop. And after that I simply build 2 High school. to cover about 6k Student.

 

So what Rhadamant5186 is true. You can always wait for pop is enough to support expense for education, and aim for community college or University directly.

And I side with him again, about you didn't need grade school or high school to increase tech level.

 

If you pre order this game you can build Dr. Vu tower, and increase tech level cheaper than build university.

 

I see from your thumbnail that you are on a public region, can you please check your stats to see if any of your students are commuting to other cities to satisfy their education needs please ?

 

A population of 80,875 with only 2775 students does seem strange to me, even though I am aware that higher density building appear to have a lower percentage of students compared to overall population but even I would not think it would be by that much, but I am looking into students/density at the moment. and will need to get back to you on that one.

 

Jim

[superfurry316 2]

I'm basically going to consider the high school as a higher capacity grade school now. Very useful info Jim.

[AshTym 31]

I can confirm that the university increases tech level AND education level.

 

ALL education buildings work exactly the same. The ONLY difference is capacity (well, that and price).

 

You DO NOT need education as soon as you start a city.

[Skittilybop 0]

So basically if I have a University I should just blow up the Primary and High Schools? Why do my citizens keep asking me for a Community College then? What role exactly do dormitories play at the University? Do the students live there instead of other housing? If so, where does the education bonus go? Is there even any point to having more students in a city? They seem pretty worthless. I need workers!

[-=XL=- 1]

I see from your thumbnail that you are on a public region, can you please check your stats to see if any of your students are commuting to other cities to satisfy their education needs please ?

 

A population of 80,875 with only 2775 students does seem strange to me, even though I am aware that higher density building appear to have a lower percentage of students compared to overall population but even I would not think it would be by that much, but I am looking into students/density at the moment. and will need to get back to you on that one.

 

Jim

There is no student commuting out or in.

As you can see in that picture I attach, there is no "Travelling to" or "Travelling From" bellow Tech Level stat.

 

This is because SimCity only simulate a little fraction of your population. For ratio about 1:10. (every 100 pop, they only simulate 10)

So, my 80k pop city only got simulate about 8k pop, and if you input this to your calculation then it will make sense.

[QSquared 0]

not sure what this equates to, but I have about 14 to 16 K REAL population (Above the "Megolopolis" line in the population bar charts.) as I used the de-fudged numbers mod.  All of my "Students" ONLY go to the Grade school and High School I bought, the numbers completely correspond.  However I get an additional 2K students at the university and community college..

[McFluffy 4]

I think starting a grade school that you upgrade as needed really pats of early game. As it delays the need for police, fire and hospital needs. And when you need them, you dont need so much of it. If I start late with schooling it takes more services to bring things to an acceptable level.

After a grade school is full, I usually have the money to start to gradually upgrade a high school.

[JimCityBuilder 14]

I have been looking through the net and found a site that has opened the file on schools and there it has this so-called fudged mode for population growth and it shows me where i have been right and where ours can see that i have been wrong. Basically it goes like this:

 

For the first population growth up to 500 all stats remain as intended ... 4 workers, 2 shoppers, and 2 kids.

From 501 to 5,000 the population to kids ratio goes out of sync if only low wealth residents are used but equates to the above when a balance of all wealth residents needed to fill jobs/shops is used.

From 5,001 to 40,000 the stats become between 15% to 25% population to kids ratio, and above 40,001 they become about 10% population to kids ratio.

 

I have been working on the low population of up to 5,000, building a town with all facilities and a proper ratio of all wealth levels which is why I am getting the returns i am.

 

As McFluffy says, and which I agree with him: building a Grade School as soon as possible delays all the problems of crime, fires etc until it is possible to afford all the other services.

 

Personally I build in the order of:

1. Wind Power Station

2.Water Tower

3.Sewage Outlet Pipe

4.Then start zoning for residential, and as each of the above services can be afforded through taxation I switch each one on in the above order therefore the cost of running them never comes out of my initial cash amount.

Next to add is the Town Hall which allows the building of Public Service buildings:

5.Grade School

6.Clinic ... adding one additional ambulance

7.Garbage Dump ... adding two additional garbage trucks

8.Fire Station ... adding two additional fire trucks

9.Police Station

And again each one is switched on when then cost can be met from taxation.

 

Remember, i am trying to build a small balanced and functional town and not a sprawling Metropolis.

 

Jim

[liquidjin 1]

It doesn't look like you can simply replace a grade school with a high school. Population is definitely a factor. I have an educated low to mid wealth small town that can't get teachers for the high school even though there are at least 40 $$ people being considered unemployed.

 

The town has ~9k residents (fake number) and 715 students. I replaced my almost fully upgraded grade school with a high school and gymnasium. But the high school won't open because it claims there aren't enough workers. It tells me to zone more residential. I shouldn't have to zone more anything. My town needs more jobs, not workers (they are all being forced to commute on purpose).

 

(Purple are all of the students in my town; green buildings are educated residences; the other education building is a library)

 

I also noticed that my grade school teachers were working 24/7. I tried to make the switch at a time that wouldn't affect them but it was impossible. The kids always left when they were supposed to, but the teachers probably got deleted when I removed the building.

[nefus 1]

Somebody unlocked education in my map and I built a community college at 3k population.  Worked like a charm.

[Element_Zero 2]

Honestly, I'd prefer if you needed a grade school, high school and then either a college, university or both. I mean, how are people getting educated to attend high school if there is no grade school? Similarly, how would one go strait from grade school to college or university. I know it doesn't work this way, but I can't help but have all 3-4 in my cities unless I go for a college/university city, where I have regional traffic commuting for each level of education.

[jas19illini 2]

I have only a university in a 200k population city, and it gives me between 2.5-3 industry tech level, but my education level is only around 1-2. I don't get it. Can anyone clarify why my education level is so low?

[JimCityBuilder 14]

It says in the manual that when new Sims enter your city their education level is 0, also the education level displayed when you open the education menu is an average for the buildings where the Sim students goes home to and not individual Sim students.

 

As everyone who has sat and watched your Sims go anywhere they all start to fill up the nearest homes first on their return and then work their way outwards which is a bit daft really; as a test leave an area around a new school free and run the city for a time, then build and zone residential between the school and the old residential area and watch the new houses start to get the education benefits first and if the difference in new housing built is higher than the existing buildings the average education level drops !!!

 

More and more people are finding that education levels do not continue to rise in this situation if you have new Sims coming in and only a University in your city or region, therefore the problem seems to resolve itself if you have either a Grade School in your city or there is a High School in the region. I know people dispute this but it is probably better to have a Grade School or a High School as well.

 

Also a Community College only benefits Tech 2 Industries if they are close by and the same seems to be true for the University too which must also remain open to maintain a continuous supply of high tech students for the Tech 3 Industries. But at the end of the day the whole education mechanics is completely broken and something needs to be done about it and soon.

 

Jim

 

EDIT: It should also be noted that Grade School and High School give benefits to Residential with regards to crime, fires, garbage,etc. whereas Community College and University benefit the tech levels for Industry.

[Element_Zero 2]

It says in the manual that when new Sims enter your city their education level is 0, also the education level displayed when you open the education menu is an average for the buildings where the Sim students goes home to and not individual Sim students.

 

As everyone who has sat and watched your Sims go anywhere they all start to fill up the nearest homes first on their return and then work their way outwards which is a bit daft really; as a test leave an area around a new school free and run the city for a time, then build and zone residential between the school and the old residential area and watch the new houses start to get the education benefits first and if the difference in new housing built is higher than the existing buildings the average education level drops !!!

 

More and more people are finding that education levels do not continue to rise in this situation if you have new Sims coming in and only a University in your city or region, therefore the problem seems to resolve itself if you have either a Grade School in your city or there is a High School in the region. I know people dispute this but it is probably better to have a Grade School or a High School as well.

 

Also a Community College only benefits Tech 2 Industries if they are close by and the same seems to be true for the University too which must also remain open to maintain a continuous supply of high tech students for the Tech 3 Industries. But at the end of the day the whole education mechanics is completely broken and something needs to be done about it and soon.

 

Jim

 

EDIT: It should also be noted that Grade School and High School give benefits to Residential with regards to crime, fires, garbage,etc. whereas Community College and University benefit the tech levels for Industry.

Jim, your point about benefits to crime/fire/garbage is very important. I try to keep my sims very educated, and even in cities of 100K I have hardly any crime or fires and they all recycle Love it! Also, healthcare seems to be affected to some degree?! Thou I keep trying low pollution cities, so that could very well be the only cause.

[JimCityBuilder 14]

To further clarify the situation about Grade Schools and High Schools I would like to point out the issue where people are insisting that University is the only building necessary to educate your Sims.

When people play in sandbox mode all cheats are available and the game mechanics are completely different than when playing the game in the proper game mode therefore the two methods of playing do not equate.

In sandbox mode all buildings are available from the beginning and all cheats are too, however in the proper game mode this is not so and buildings have to be unlocked by completing certain criteria and this is just as true for education.

When the game starts the only education buildings available are the Public Library and the Grade School; it is now necessary to reach a population of just over 5000 Sims to be able to upgrade the Town Hall to a City Hall and to make available the add-ons to your new City Hall. For education it is necessary to plop down the Dept of Education to unlock access to the other education buildings.

However this is not the whole story, when you look at the education menu you will see that all the new buildings are in fact not available straight away rather that you still have to satisfy certain criteria to open each one and the final requirement for each building is to educate a certain number of students per day to do so:

1. Public Library ... available after placing a Town Hall.

2.Grade School ... available after placing a Town Hall.

3.Community College ... available after placing a Town Hall and educating 800 students in a day.

The next buildings require the Upgrade to City Hall and the add-on of a Dept of Education, plus the following:

4. High School ... available after educating 500 students in a day

5. University ... available after educating 1200 students in a day.

Please check your education menu so that you can see that this is true.

Other cities can unlock these buildings for themselves if at least one city in the region can educate the required number of Sims needed and/or adds a Dept of Education to their City Hall where required. Also the Community College can be opened if another city with a Grade School educates over 800 students.

Many people state that Universities are all that are needed to educate their Sims but as you can see when playing a proper game mode this is not the case because of the need for the other education buildings at least in the region. This then gives the appearance that education levels are rising in the city with a University, however this is a hidden aspect of the game when playing a region with multiple cities because of the issue of commuting between these cities. If you are to follow some of your Sims around for a while you will see some of them commute to other cities; now if you watch a city that has commuters coming into it and follow these Sims you will see them go to a home at the end of their day and they take their education level with them when they do so thus raising education levels for that city even if it has no school college or university and this is a great example of how the education game mechanics are messes up and give all sorts of wrong read outs with one of them being negative number students shoppers and workers !

So in conclusion:

Start your city off with a Grade School to get your Sims educated as soon as possible to avoid all the unnecessary crime etc and if you choose to upgrade your industries then add a Community College once it becomes available in the education menu. As your city grows the Grade School can be replaced with a High School and the Community College can be replaced with a University, but at the end of the day how you place these buildings and in what order is entirely up to you but bear in mind that they do still have to be unlocked in the menu.

Jim

[Buggi 684]

I have found that low-wealth residents tend to favor the community college.

 

I (or someone) would have to test this though, create a low wealth city build a university and see the attendance, then build a med/high wealth city of the same population and a univ. and see the attendance.