Another war is starting

[Alejandro24 575]

LOL, now Israel is defending the people of Gaza? You should be kidding, seriously. One thing is the right of defend your nation and another is to push another people or ethnicity to an exile just because that people will make your nation another "country of third world". Because if you have not readed about the rascist politics of Israel against their neighbourghs is because you only want to defend an historical error instead to look for a real solution.

[Cobraroll 138]

I guess it doesn't help much that Hamas - or the people of Gaza altoghether - isn't as strictly structured as the IDF either. The Palestinian government can issue a general ceasefire, but the smuggling of weapons may still continue. All it takes then is some radical Palestinian who doesn't recognise Hamas, and enough money to buy a cheap rocket, and there goes the peace talks. It's a little like Afghanistan - you may fight Taliban, and see Taliban in every shadow, yet in practise the guy firing at you could be any kind of radical farmer or local warlord. Hamas might be the biggest and most recognizable of the bunch, but far from the only ones wanting to destroy Israel.

In a twist of irony, though: Iran's support to Hamas and Hezbullah, and all the rockets the two groups are firing into Israel, is strengthening the IDF. Before long, if not already, Israel will be the country with the best rocket defense system in the world. The Iron Dome system has been developed, expanded and improved to meet rockets coming from Gaza, and in an eventual Israel/Iran-war, it might be capable of entirely neutralizing any long-range missiles on their way from Iran. At the current rate, Hamas is trying to bleed Israel with rockets, but instead letting them build immunity towards it.

Also agreeing that the general problem is stuff that happened years and years ago. The people who made all the decisions then are either dead or retired, and the current generation have all grown up with status quo. Yet everybody seems to want to pass the blame, and avenge the past, rather than trying to find a real solution. Israel might be the closest we get to "nice guys", but the fact still remains they happen to be located upon recently conquered land with no alternative but to defend it.

I think the biggest error done so far in the conflict was insisting that Israel be located where it is. Couldn't they have got a nice plot of land somewhere else? Say, part of Madagascar, Tasmania or some of the former British colonies? Why did they absolutely want the beehive that is Jerusalem, which most of the neighbours fight for already? Some people really should have distinguished better between "historical Israel" and "land of the Jews, which they want to name Israel".

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Well, I was thinking of a nuclear strike by the western powers to obliterate then entire region. The world would have to get along without Jerusalem and Medina. Tehran would have to be included, and I am very much afraid that the eradication of the entire group of warring Semites and their allies would be the goal. I expect the lake of glass would extend from Aleppo to the Suez, and go inland quite a way. When you have to excise a cancer you have to take the surrounding tissue to be sure you've got it all.

Horrible thought. [End of horrible example.]

But really, the only solution to the Jewish problem in the middle east is probably the removal of them to some other safe place. It is really too bad that the original Israelites got the idea that some being "promised" that area. When they originally arrived, they proceeded to expel the peoples living there and committed all kinds of atrocities in the process. You only have to read the book of Moses to get the picture. Why they are proud of this atrocious history is beyond anyone who has witnessed war on any basis. The armchair generals have never smelled a battlefield after the fight. War is hell, and the immediate aftermath is a charnel house. The rotting blood, guts and flesh is not something for a Sunday school.

The western allies caused this mess seventy or more years ago. It is up to them to straighten it out. It is clear that the peoples living there can never be at peace except for the perfect peace of the grave.

Now, I am sure the IDF is a capable conventional army with tanks, etc. But are they also guerrilla fighters? An occupation of Gaza would require drastic measures against the resistance, and part of it would be a very tight blockade. They would have to set up an interdiction zone that would make Festung Europa look like a garden party.

I feel for the Palestinian civilian population, but they are living in a dictatorship run by a recognized terrorist organization. I don't know how anyone can help them in such an unstable set up with such paranoid leaders. This is why you don't give weapons to unruly children.

[LexusInfernus 908]

The western allies caused this mess seventy or more years ago. It is up to them to straighten it out. It is clear that the peoples living there can never be at peace except for the perfect peace of the grave.

Now, I am sure the IDF is a capable conventional army with tanks, etc. But are they also guerrilla fighters? An occupation of Gaza would require drastic measures against the resistance, and part of it would be a very tight blockade. They would have to set up an interdiction zone that would make Festung Europa look like a garden party.

The western allies had their chance. Its no longer up to them to interfere in the region. All that interference is what caused this mess to begin with. This situation will eventually resolve itself. Either Israel or the people from Gaza will get tired of this constant battling and then they will seek a solution. But we cannot impose a solution, it wouldnt work.

And no, counter insurgency is something you do by winning the hearts and minds. Right now, Gaza is a festering wound, there is hardly any power, medicine, flowing water and food, thanks to the blockade set up by Israel, to keep the weapons out. Youre not gonna win anyone over by choking the life out of that place even more. I think youll find the Palestinians very reasonable people once you remove a lot of checkpoints, let the water and power flow again, and begin investing in the local economy. After all, who wants to risk his life when hes making a decent living? The consequence is that Israel will have to prepare for a number of attacks on their civilian population by the radicals that are there right now. But by not retaliating with extreme force, you dont create any more anger. Simply put, if Israel can show the average Palestinian that they are better off being nice and peaceful citizens than being Hamas radicals, they can destroy Hamas or at least reduce it to a fringe threat.

I however doubt that there is the political will within Israel to try such a thing.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Cease fire at 1400 EST today.

For heathen heart that puts her trust

In reeking tube and iron shard—

All valiant dust that builds on dust,

And guarding calls not Thee to guard.

For frantic boast and foolish word,

Thy Mercy on Thy People, Lord!

Recessional - Rudyard Kipling

[LexusInfernus 908]

Of course, another cease fire. Political officials all say that they hope that it will bring about sustainable peace and hope for a permanent solution for the whole issue, but everyone else knows that this will last a few years at best before fighting starts again. Its like putting a bandage on a festering wound.

[GMT 389]

cease fire number 305,231,687 since may 14th 1948.

let the brits ALONE take care of this, they started it after all, but they realized stuff got out of hand real quick and lost interest equally fast. hey lets wage war on the falklands, perfect decoy to let them forget we started it. the whole fire-and-forget thing they did with israel would have worked in britain, but they always have a hard time understanding that barely anything beyond the channel works the way it does on the isles.

and while the brits queue up to start a quorum to decide on asking for permission to make a formal suggestion to change their tp from 2 to 3 layers... the cow pads they left behind start to work their own dynamics up.

there will never be peace and quiet in the middle east. they work by action and reaction, and if action isnt followed by reaction, there's more action to come until there's no way past reaction... and if action IS followed by reaction, the same game starts over immediately.

if either side lays down their weapons once and for all, the other side would consider that a victory and pushes on until their own goal is reached.

if hamas et al stop fighting their dirty war, israel continues to subjugate the palestinians with more lebensraum for israelis, more embargos, more dump to load off on them.

if israel stops fighting, hamas et al continue until the last israeli is either dead or harried away.

neither side accepts coexistence.

what saddens me tho is to see how superior israel considers itself over the palestinian people and acts as such (even more every time that political hardliner Netanjahu commands the ship).

from all the peoples of the world, they should know best about how it is to be humiliated for just being of a different heritage, being a different ethnic group.

but instead of having learned from their own millenia-old fate reaching from racial profiling and exclusion over antisemitism to the holocaust... they happily pass it on.

palestinians are - if at all - 2nd class people to them, put in ghettos and deprived of many many rights, sometimes even human rights and the only real thing thats missing to complete the sick image of how isreal treats them is genocide.

hard words, hard words... and no, I'm not talking about absolution for the crimes the hamas and the likes commited and still commit, nor do I say all israeli actions are unjustified, both sides are to blame.

it's just - in a bad way - amazing how western media points their finger at palestinians and act as if israel was innocence personified.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

I agree that if either side could get away with it they'd be building death camps. The Jews didn't learn anything in the 1933 - 1945 except how to whine louder.

The Palestinians are those who settled after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, and probably have the best current claim to the land.

Both sides [have had|now have] terrorist operations against the each other. The squabble between these blood relatives is sickening.

[Mister Giggles 310]

I agree that if either side could get away with it they'd be building death camps.

1: Find where in the Basic Laws of Israel or in legal precedent where the Jews remotely indicate they want to start sending people into death camps. I couldn't find anything. Maybe you can link me to some articles?

2: Now go and find Hamas' charter and see if you can find a section where they talk about murdering every single Jew on the planet and sending Israel to the dustbin of history. Here are pertinent quotes from said charter. The whole thing is here.

The Jews didn't learn anything in the 1933 - 1945 except how to whine louder.

Didn't "learn" anything? So the Holocaust was punishment for...?

Both sides [have had|now have] terrorist operations against the each other.

What terrorist operations has Israel run against the Palestinians? Could you link to news articles, please?

[Ocram's Razr 964]

I agree with Nonny Moose on this one. Both sides will be worse off from these conflicts.

--Ocram

[GMT 389]

1: Find where in the Basic Laws of Israel or in legal precedent where the Jews remotely indicate they want to start sending people into death camps. I couldn't find anything. Maybe you can link me to some articles?

of course they don't speak it out loud, but what do you think will be the logical consequence of the ghettoization and deprivation of rights of the palestinians, IF the rest of the world would look a way? and they lived together happily ever after? most likely not.

2: Now go and find Hamas' charter and see if you can find a section where they talk about murdering every single Jew on the planet and sending Israel to the dustbin of history. Here are pertinent quotes from said charter. The whole thing is here.

either you're trying to be witty and Ironic, or you're blind. already the preamble says that:

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

and it continues in almost every other article.

Didn't "learn" anything? So the Holocaust was punishment for...?

so you learn from punishment only? so your parents, teachers and everyone else you've learned from have beaten the crap out of you to fortify your wisdom?

interesting.

you've most likely learned to read and write and probably a fair amount of mathematical knowledge aswell as many other things in school. so your education was punishment for...?

don't wanna break your picture of the universe, but learning from something doesn't automatically imply punishment.

to clearify the matter at hand: the israelis should've learned from the holocaust how it feels like to be discriminated against, hated, excluded and even (systematically) killed for just being "different" and that this is a treatment none shall receive.

uhm... maybe except palestinians, they deserve it for being different.

What terrorist operations has Israel run against the Palestinians? Could you link to news articles, please?

again, I wonder wether you're trying to be ironic or not.

don't you think that there's a reason why human rights institutions like Amnesty Intl and Human Rights Watch permanently critize the way Israel treats the palestinians?

forced migration, ghettoization, destruction of homes and infrastructure no move them further, the permanent construction of israeli settlements on palestine ground, violent attacks of israeli settlers against palestinians, you name it they got it.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

I don't have any specific references. Just general gut feeling. My DOB is 1937-09-20 so I've been around for quite a while, and not just around my mommy.

The Holocaust ("final solution to the Jewish question") would be reinstated if Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Islamic Jihad had their way. This doesn't have to be written down, but apparently is has been. I can't think of any English word to describe the Holocaust, but German has a lulu: "schrechlicheit" (not sure of the spelling). This was not a punishment. It was the policy of a madman and his henchmen.

Why do Jews want to be punished? For what?

Let us not go into the Christian Bible for that. It is all fiction in that regard. Scripture, like all history, is written by the winners. We are told that the Jews were expelled from that area by the Romans mostly because they were being a pain in the tokus, and the Romans were just fed up, according to the Roman historians. At the time, it was good policy to enslave conquered peoples when they turned out to be unmanageable. Besides, there was the temple gold (built a big chunk of the Colosseum). My feeling on it is simple "follow the money". Tearing down the cities of conquered people was also good policy. Look what happened to Carthage.

Looking over my seven plus decades, I can say that nothing is new under the sun, so I guess that puts me in agreement with Ecclesiastes. That's my experience talking.

Peoples who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. History is not made by actions of men, it falls on them. Let us give thanks that we have mostly had peace over my lifetime with a few bumps in the road here and there. Right now, as has happened over the centuries since the Egyptian Empire, the Palestine question remains: Who is living there? By what right?

[LexusInfernus 908]

1: Find where in the Basic Laws of Israel or in legal precedent where the Jews remotely indicate they want to start sending people into death camps. I couldn't find anything. Maybe you can link me to some articles?

2: Now go and find Hamas' charter and see if you can find a section where they talk about murdering every single Jew on the planet and sending Israel to the dustbin of history. Here are pertinent quotes from said charter. The whole thing is here.

Hmm does Israeli politicians suggesting that dropping a nuke on the Gaza strip is a good idea count? Aside from that, they are slowely turning the whole Gaza strip into one big camp, once they finished that wall. Of course, it wont be a death camp, just like the Jewish Ghettos in Poland also wasnt a death camp. People just tended to die there due to the deprivation of a number of basic commodities. Want another nasty parallel with the holocaust? How about the Nazis forcefully removing Jews from their property? Now how about Israel forcefully removing Palestinians from their property, either by Jewish colonists establishing illegal settlements or because Israel decided that a part of the wall needs to go through some poor fellows house.

Of course, this doesnt excuse Hamas, but do not make the mistake by saying that the Israelis are the victims here.

Didn't "learn" anything? So the Holocaust was punishment for...?

Much like how the Japanese learned how nuclear weapons are terrible weapons and specifically made a point out of it to never ever have anything to do with nuclear weapons. You could say that a group that survived the worst form of genocide in the history of humanity could have learned from it that whatever the Nazis did was disgusting. Instead they seemed to have adopted some of their tactics and are now using them against others. Then again, I suppose 2000 years of prosecution does give you the idea that everyone else is unreliable and that from this point onward all means of self defense are morally acceptable.

What terrorist operations has Israel run against the Palestinians? Could you link to news articles, please?

I agree, what Israel does might be questionable, its not terrorist. A state has the right of self defense, and attacking Hamas is a military valid target. That innocent civilians die in the process is unfortunate, but it does nothing to change the legitimacy of their actions.

[Duke87 1,070]

What terrorist operations has Israel run against the Palestinians?

None, if you go by the common usage of the word "terrorism"... nonetheless, there have been plenty of bombs, missiles, troops, etc. sent into Gaza and the West Bank (and I'll give the folks in Golan Heights a mention, too). The point is more that both sides are on a short fuse and are using violence against each other frequently. And whether you call that "terrorism" or just "war", it isn't pretty.

[Mister Giggles 310]

GMT,

of course they don't speak it out loud, but what do you think will be the logical consequence of the ghettoization and deprivation of rights of the palestinians, IF the rest of the world would look a way

Why did the Jews seal off the Gaza Strip, put up the wall, and institute a blockade?

"don't wanna break your picture of the universe, but learning from something doesn't automatically imply punishment."

There are, as with many things, different ways to interpret Nonny's statement. I interpreted it in the sense that the Jews were being published for something, given the tone of Nonny's post. He meant it in a different way, given his confusion at my response in his response.

That said, generally, when the action taken against you is extremely unpleasant, as the Holocaust was, it is safe to believe it was punishment for something when learning is expected at the end of it.

violent attacks of israeli settlers against palestinians, you name it they got it.

Could you link to a news article that goes into this in further detail?

LexusInfernus,

Hmm does Israeli politicians suggesting that dropping a nuke on the Gaza strip is a good idea count?

Could you link to a news article that reveals who said this and the full context of the statement?

Now how about Israel forcefully removing Palestinians from their property,

Do you refer to the Bedouins? Whose land is currently in Israeli borders because of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War?

either by Jewish colonists establishing illegal settlements

In what other nations is Israel putting up settlements? Or are you referring to land Israel conquered during the Six-Day War?

or because Israel decided that a part of the wall needs to go through some poor fellows house.

Why did Israel put up the wall?

Of course, this doesnt excuse Hamas, but do not make the mistake by saying that the Israelis are the victims here.

Am I? Nonny suggested Israel would send people into death camps if they could. I linked to the supreme legal documents of both groups involved in the conflict so that the reader could reach their own determination about whether or not such policies exist.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Mr. Giggles: It doesn't matter what is written in a code of laws. People will do what they will do. What you have to realize is that making Gaza into a ghetto is not really much different from the Warsaw ghetto especially with all the blockades. When you've been around as long as I have the parallels become rather obvious.

There is no easy solution to all this, but it is distracting people from considering more serious problems in the world. As the global warming cycle continues, people who live in low areas such as Bangladesh will become permanently homeless as their land floods. This is going to cause a huge number of displaced persons, and the world has no place to put them down anywhere that will be "acceptable" to them or the rest of the world. This is going to be a massive volderwandrung, and it is inevitable. All the posturing in the world about greenhouse gases is just so much useless palaver. We are past the tipping point, and we couldn't have stopped it anyway. It is a geological phenomenon. Once the muskegs and the oceans start giving up all that stored methane, it is going to go even faster.

I am relatively lucky in this regard. I won't be alive by the time the excrement hits the rotating blades.

The world needs to stop all this bickering and figure out what to do in the new climate situation. Ignoring it, or railing against it reminds me of King Canute and the tides. The net effect of an unprepared world as this kicks in will be a typical die off of the population, so maybe it is a good thing as long as none of us are in the millions who will die.

I hope there is another three decades before the fan starts up.

[GMT 389]

Could you link to a news article that goes into this in further detail?

while I have the urgent need to say that I think you lack some vital information on the whole middle-east, especially the "dark side" of israel's involvement, I also find it kind of irritating how you keep on questioning statements out of afore mentioned reasons, but rarely come forth with "usable" statements.

anyways, here's a whole google output on violent attacks of israeli settlers

also, we're not talking about Bedouins, we're talking about the many thousands of palestinians that we're send in to the Gaza strip, Golan Hights and West Bank after, out of a not-my-problem situation of the western world, people got deprived of a land they lived in for centuries just because an even longer time ago, others were there, a neverending spiral starts until we end up 14 billion years ago and realise nobody is the rightful owner of nothing.

further, the israeli construction of settlements on the remaining palestinian ground is, by all means, illegal and to me nothing but a calculated provocation and yet another way of israel saying "frak you, we're boss" to the palestinian people.

and so on and so forth... I appreciate your input, but like I said already, you seem to lack some information and I should suggest you to really dig into the whole middle-east-problem to see where all the critical voices that speak against israel actions come from...

but then again, if your entire knowledge on that problem comes from the news, there's nothing to wonder why. the bigger picture the western news media suggests is that palestinians are the sole aggressors "down there" with only sparse detail on what israel actually does to provoke these attacks.

[Mister Giggles 310]

while I have the urgent need to say that I think you lack some vital information on the whole middle-east, especially the "dark side" of israel's involvement

Could you list some examples where I am missing vital information? I'd be happy to do further research to verify what I've said, and would link you to the sources for my information.

I also find it kind of irritating how you keep on questioning statements

I ask questions because I want to understand the facts behind them.

out of afore mentioned reasons,

If I am ignorant, educate me.

but rarely come forth with "usable" statements.

Questions rarely are useful statements in and of themselves. They're generally requests for elaboration or information.

anyways, here's a whole google output on violent attacks of israeli settlers

Thank you.

also, we're not talking about Bedouins, we're talking about the many thousands of palestinians that we're send in to the Gaza strip, Golan Hights and West Bank after, out of a not-my-problem situation of the western world, people got deprived of a land they lived in for centuries just because an even longer time ago, others were there, a neverending spiral starts until we end up 14 billion years ago and realise nobody is the rightful owner of nothing.

Each individual event has a distinct cause, even if the overall aggression between the two parties has been going on for generations. Such as, these questions can be asked:

Why does Israel claim the Golan Heights?

Why did Israel erect a wall?

Why did Israel blockade Gaza?

Why was Israel preparing an invasion of Gaza a few days ago?

further, the israeli construction of settlements on the remaining palestinian ground is, by all means, illegal and to me nothing but a calculated provocation and yet another way of israel saying "frak you, we're boss" to the palestinian people.

Are you referring to the land Israel obtained during the Six-Day War and the 1948 Arab–Israeli War?

[LexusInfernus 908]

Could you link to a news article that reveals who said this and the full context of the statement?

Avigdor Lieberman, ultra right wing politician. Alluding to nuclear strikes is just one of the things that tends to get him in trouble.

http://en.wikipedia....ut_Palestinians

Do you refer to the Bedouins? Whose land is currently in Israeli borders because of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War?

No I do not refer to the Bedouins. Seriously, dont you ever keep up with the news?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24/israel-evict-palestinians_n_1699608.html

http://www.councilforthenationalinterest.org/israelpalestineconflict/missingheadlines/item/1653-israeli-supreme-court-decides-to-evict-palestinians-from-homes-in-old-city-of-jerusalem

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/03/world/middleeast/03israel.html?_r=0

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/israel-steps-forced-evictions-west-bank-palestinians-2010-07-01

In what other nations is Israel putting up settlements? Or are you referring to land Israel conquered during the Six-Day War?

No, Im referring to the settlements that everyone in the world asks Israel to stop building. Settlements that are under every law illegal.

Why did Israel put up the wall?

If Israel feels safer behind a wall, thats their business. They do however, use this wall to snatch pieces of Palestinian land. If you build a big wall, build it on your own side of the border, dont use it to secretly include territory that doesnt belong to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier#Loss_of_land

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_demolition_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_barrier_report_july_2009_english_low_res.pdf

And it remains the question whether such a barrier will actually make Israel safer. It doesnt seem to me that such a wall will stop anyone from firing rockets if they wish. While it will destroy communities and cut off access to private property.

Am I? Nonny suggested Israel would send people into death camps if they could. I linked to the supreme legal documents of both groups involved in the conflict so that the reader could reach their own determination about whether or not such policies exist.

No, Israel will not methodically slaughter every Palestinian, I agree. The question is if the current Israeli approach is that much more respectful to human rights.

[Mister Giggles 310]

Avigdor Lieberman, ultra right wing politician. Alluding to nuclear strikes is just one of the things that tends to get him in trouble.

http://en.wikipedia....ut_Palestinians

Extraordinary statements...thank you.

No I do not refer to the Bedouins. Seriously, dont you ever keep up with the news?

http://www.huffingto..._n_1699608.html

http://www.councilfo...ty-of-jerusalem

http://www.nytimes.c...srael.html?_r=0

http://www.amnesty.o...ians-2010-07-01

Your statement was exceptionally broad and didn't indicate a specify people or time. Thank you for specifying.

No, Im referring to the settlements that everyone in the world asks Israel to stop building. Settlements that are under every law illegal.

Settlements where? Golan Heights? West Bank? What laws? Again, extremely broad and doesn't help me educate myself on the matter.

If Israel feels safer behind a wall, thats their business. They do however, use this wall to snatch pieces of Palestinian land. If you build a big wall, build it on your own side of the border, dont use it to secretly include territory that doesnt belong to you.

http://en.wikipedia....er#Loss_of_land

http://en.wikipedia....tinian_conflict

http://www.ochaopt.o...ish_low_res.pdf

Thank you.

And it remains the question whether such a barrier will actually make Israel safer. It doesnt seem to me that such a wall will stop anyone from firing rockets if they wish. While it will destroy communities and cut off access to private property.

An interesting article.

No, Israel will not methodically slaughter every Palestinian, I agree. The question is if the current Israeli approach is that much more respectful to human rights.

In comparison to death camps, the Palestinians have it significantly better. But robbing people of their land for a theoretical benefit is a terrible thing.

[GMT 389]

Lexus has already given you most of the things I was talking about so I guess that filled some holes already...

Settlements where? Golan Heights? West Bank? What laws? Again, extremely broad and doesn't help me educate myself on the matter.

Maybe you missed this, but israeli settlements is not at all extremely broad but a very specified definition for the many settlements Israel constructed and still constructs on arab groud, mainly Palestine Territories, thus violating laws and treaties.

Recently (nov 7th), Netanjahu ordered to build another 1285 israeli settlements in the Palestine Territories, as if there wasn't enough room in israel to build.

Long story short, these settlements are by no means necessary and even if, there would be no reason but provocation to build them on dedicated palestinian ground or even across the borders in to Egypt, Jordan and Syria like after the Six Day War. These were destroyed again, but those in the Palestinian Territories? Unlike other israeli prime ministers, Netanjahu is radically against any idea of a palestine state and doesn't even recognize the Palestinian Territories as legal. Enough said.

In comparison to death camps, the Palestinians have it significantly better. But robbing people of their land for a theoretical benefit is a terrible thing.

Now I gotta ask you on which knowledge you base this statement? Maybe you missed it, we're not comparing the Palestinian Territories to death camps, but to the hundreds of jewish ghettos established under the german nazi regime.

Israel systematically closes the Palestinian Territories, e.g. the Gaza Strip where the UN, Human Rights Whatch and several NGOs consider it to be occupied by Israel as it controls sea, land and airways and blocks every kind of goods transfer unless its of urgent need, especially since the Hamas was voted into government. Not to mention several other nations, including the US, declaring embargos against it. Turkish prime minister Erdogan nailed it pretty much, calling it an "open air prison".

Maybe you're right to say they have it better than the jews in the death camps, but by no means they have it better than the jews in the ghettos we were comparing the situation to.

to educate you further, here's links to the wikipedia portals of Israel and Palestine aswell as the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

together with the sources these articles are based on I guess this should get you up to date with whats going on there.

[Mister Giggles 310]

Maybe you missed this, but israeli settlements is not at all extremely broad but a very specified definition

There are dozens of incidents/conflicts involving the settlements over the course of Israel's history. They are likely to have different mechanisms involved, different conclusions to be reached. I've lumped things together before without basis, and the sting of being corrected is not one I wish to experience again.

for the many settlements Israel constructed and still constructs on arab groud,

What land is Israel currently building on that is within the borders of an Arab nation? Besides the disputed West Bank; seems to me that Israel shouldn't be doing anything there, at the moment.

mainly Palestine Territories, thus violating laws and treaties.

Recently (nov 7th), Netanjahu ordered to build another 1285 israeli settlements in the Palestine Territories, as if there wasn't enough room in israel to build.

Long story short, these settlements are by no means necessary and even if, there would be no reason but provocation to build them on dedicated palestinian ground or even across the borders in to Egypt, Jordan and Syria like after the Six Day War. These were destroyed again, but those in the Palestinian Territories? Unlike other israeli prime ministers, Netanjahu is radically against any idea of a palestine state and doesn't even recognize the Palestinian Territories as legal. Enough said.

What areas do you define as Palestine Territories?

Now I gotta ask you on which knowledge you base this statement? Maybe you missed it, we're not comparing the Palestinian Territories to death camps, but to the hundreds of jewish ghettos established under the german nazi regime.

1: You did, actually, compare what Israel is during currently to the death camps of Nazi Germany:

of course they don't speak it out loud, but what do you think will be the logical consequence of the ghettoization and deprivation of rights of the palestinians, IF the rest of the world would look a way? and they lived together happily ever after? most likely not.

In direct response to my post where I said I found nothing in the Basic Laws of Israel about the extermination of the Palestinians. You suggested, left unchecked, the current behavior of the Jews will inevitably erode into the same horrific disregard for human life as did the Nazi regime.

You did not compare ghetto to ghetto. You suggested that the actions of Israel are on the same rail as the actions of the Nazis. An important distinction.

2: The statement you quoted was in response to LexusInfernus' post where we discuss whether or not Israel's current treatment of the Palestinians is that much better than the death camps.

Israel systematically closes the Palestinian Territories, e.g. the Gaza Strip where the UN, Human Rights Whatch and several NGOs consider it to be occupied by Israel as it controls sea, land and airways and blocks every kind of goods transfer unless its of urgent need, especially since the Hamas was voted into government. Not to mention several other nations, including the US, declaring embargos against it. Turkish prime minister Erdogan nailed it pretty much, calling it an "open air prison".

Maybe you're right to say they have it better than the jews in the death camps, but by no means they have it better than the jews in the ghettos we were comparing the situation to.

In comparison to the Jewish Ghettos, which were always intended as the first step in annihilating the Jews, the Gaza Strip does not nominally (In other words, when no one is firing) suffer the same degree of human rights losses. The Gaza Strip is allowed everything required for the sustainment of life and more. In fact, as time as gone along, Israel has become less restrictive about what is sent into the strip.

The intent of sealing off the Gaza strip was to severely strangle the ability of terrorist organizations to succeed in their goals. It was not to make the Palestinians living there suffer (although it has had that effect). This is a critical, vital difference from the Jewish ghettos. It tells me that, in the event Hamas and the others are destroyed/crippled, then the blockage of the Gaza Strip will cease. Certainly, it'll save Israel a lot of money; supplying the Gaza Strip has been an enormously expensive task.

The Jewish ghettos were denied everything except the basic necessities for life, and even then it was of low quality. Even "good" ghettos - the ones that existed before the death camps began large scale operations - were allowed to quickly degrade into cesspools.

By no means am I attempting to minimize what the average Palestinian in the Gaza Strip has to go through, nor am I suggesting the Gaza Strip isn't an open air prison. A very nice prison is still a prison (Unless we're talking this prison). However, I am attempting show the differences of intent behind the Jewish Ghettos and the Palestinian Ghettos and the results. Israel did something desperate to save lives and is attempting to make life bearable for their captives; The Nazi's collected Jews and the unwanted into cramped, filthy conditions with the goal of killing them all.

to educate you further, here's links to the wikipedia portals of Israel and Palestine aswell as the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

together with the sources these articles are based on I guess this should get you up to date with whats going on there.

Thank you.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Sitting here in my living room, this seems all academic, but one has to realize it is not. This is probably the fuze that will start WW III if we are not all careful.

Tehran had better be very careful with their apparent nuke rattling. If anyone really believed they were building a bomb, I think NATO would be in there foot, horse and marines.

[hym 358]

If anyone really believed they were building a bomb, I think NATO would be in there foot, horse and marines.

Actually, no. The reason the US has been saber rattling at Iran for the past few years was to get some action before they got a nuclear bomb. For example, the US knew that North Korea was attempting to get nuclear material as far back as 1993. Bill Clinton asked State Department and military advisors for what they felt should be done. Military advisors favored toppling the North Korean government and destroying all information and resources associated with the country's nuclear program. The State Department said the North Korean government was open to bribery, and the best answer was to bribe them into abandoning their nuclear program by giving them aid every year. Clinton wasn't really interested in a war, so he sided with the State Department advisors. Military advisors warned Clinton that this plan absolutely had to work, otherwise there would be no other options for "de-nuclearizing" North Korea. Or, as one advisor put it, "You can go to war with them before they have nukes, but you can't afterwards."

After Iraq and Afghanistan, the US doesn't want to invade Iran by itself, but, as it would seem, no one else is interested in using military force to solve the issue.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Please note I said NATO, not the U.S. There are more irons in that fire than you might think.

[hym 358]

Please note I said NATO, not the U.S. There are more irons in that fire than you might think.

Of the NATO countries, the US is the only one that has shown any serious interest in a possible military solution to the question of Iran's nuclear ambitions, and it is likely only going to entertain that option so long as Iran does not have a nuclear bomb. US military doctrine, which has a strong influence on NATO doctrine, avoids war between nuclear armed countries. Suggesting that, upon credible belief that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, NATO would suddenly develop an interest in a war with Iran is effectively suggesting that all the European officials who currently don't want a war with Iran would suddenly want a war with Iran when it might already have a nuclear bomb. That seems very illogical.

However, none of this really matters as it is not the point of this thread. We are veering off topic and need to return to the original point of the thread.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Good point. However, the "eight day war" seems to have ended in a truce. Let's hope it holds.