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Wiecher

Another war is starting

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20349280

Palestinians fired a missile at Tel Aviv, after an Israeli air strike killed the military leader of Hamas and 18 Palestinians (And stuff happened before that, there is no way to tell who shot first).

Now 30,000 Israeli forces are marching on the Gaza Strip for a possible ground offensive.

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Clarifying: Israel did not start the current conflict. The terrorists shot first. Or rather, the terrorists escalated it on November 10th, resulting in Israel responding with Operation Pillar of Defense/Cloud on November 14th. This has caused further aggression.

Given the recent history of conflicts in the region, I doubt this will result in an all out war unless one of Israel's enemies decides this is a grand time for an invasion.

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And let the eternal battle begin. Again.

Also, someone please tell me I'm not the only one who saw the thread title and thought "In A.D. 2101 war was beginning"

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::: sending good thoughts to our old friend Superstar and hoping he is not in harm's way ::::

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  • Original Poster
  • Clarifying: Israel did not start the current conflict. The terrorists shot first. Or rather, the terrorists escalated it on November 10th, resulting in Israel responding with Operation Pillar of Defense/Cloud on November 14th. This has caused further aggression.

    Given the recent history of conflicts in the region, I doubt this will result in an all out war unless one of Israel's enemies decides this is a grand time for an invasion.

    You can't say any of them shot first, because the conflict as we know it today has been going on since the area changed from a UN mandate to Israël and Palestina in 1948. Before that, there were already problems, and the influx of Zionist Jews made it even worse. Of course, Zionism wouldn't have been so big if WWII did not happen, so in some way we can even blame Hitler for this conflict. And if the Romans never destroyed the second temple in 70 AD, the Jewish Diaspora would have never happened, so this whole conflict has no start or end and blaming any group on attacking first is merely a political choice.

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    The curse of modern times is the Balfour declaration of 1917 in which a British Colonial officer, smugly writing in the comfort of the Empire, declared that the Jews deserved a homeland. The implementation in 1948 by arbitrary means simply made the Palestine question even worse.

    Unfortunately for them, the Jews lost their homeland over 2,000 years ago, and were expelled from it by the Romans for being a persistent pain the nether regions. The Diaspora was the result.

    I am at a complete loss to understand why anyone would want to live in the desert that the eastern end of the Med. has become. "Next year in Jerusalem" has been a cry of Jews ever since the expulsion, but Jerusalem is the seat of three major religions. Why not simply declare it an International City under UN Trust Administration, and end all the BS.

    If the Jews want a homeland, let them find someplace that they can settle on peacefully. The Israelis have been invaders of Palestine since the time of Moses and a bloody invasion complete with genocides it was. They've never been able to hang on to that land, and the only reason they can do so now is that some world powers are insisting.

    The worst part of all of this is that it is a family squabble. The sons of Abram should get together in brotherhood and forget which side of the blanket their ancestors were born on. There is enough trouble in the world without family feuds.

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    Clarifying: Israel did not start the current conflict. The terrorists shot first. Or rather, the terrorists escalated it on November 10th, resulting in Israel responding with Operation Pillar of Defense/Cloud on November 14th. This has caused further aggression.

    Given the recent history of conflicts in the region, I doubt this will result in an all out war unless one of Israel's enemies decides this is a grand time for an invasion.

    You can't say any of them shot first, because the conflict as we know it today has been going on since the area changed from a UN mandate to Israël and Palestina in 1948. Before that, there were already problems, and the influx of Zionist Jews made it even worse. Of course, Zionism wouldn't have been so big if WWII did not happen, so in some way we can even blame Hitler for this conflict. And if the Romans never destroyed the second temple in 70 AD, the Jewish Diaspora would have never happened, so this whole conflict has no start or end and blaming any group on attacking first is merely a political choice.

    Current conflict, the one ignited after 100 missiles were launched into Israel. It has a definable beginning, with a cause and effect. I wouldn't dare try to suggest I know the facts of thousands of years. :P

    The curse of modern times is the Balfour declaration of 1917 in which a British Colonial officer, smugly writing in the comfort of the Empire, declared that the Jews deserved a homeland. The implementation in 1948 by arbitrary means simply made the Palestine question even worse.

    Unfortunately for them, the Jews lost their homeland over 2,000 years ago, and were expelled from it by the Romans for being a persistent pain the nether regions. The Diaspora was the result.

    I am at a complete loss to understand why anyone would want to live in the desert that the eastern end of the Med. has become. "Next year in Jerusalem" has been a cry of Jews ever since the expulsion, but Jerusalem is the seat of three major religions. Why not simply declare it an International City under UN Trust Administration, and end all the BS.

    If the Jews want a homeland, let them find someplace that they can settle on peacefully. The Israelis have been invaders of Palestine since the time of Moses and a bloody invasion complete with genocides it was. They've never been able to hang on to that land, and the only reason they can do so now is that some world powers are insisting.

    The worst part of all of this is that it is a family squabble. The sons of Abram should get together in brotherhood and forget which side of the blanket their ancestors were born on. There is enough trouble in the world without family feuds.

    The U.N. doesn't even recognize Israel as a nation*. It would not do well to entrust the organization to handle Jerusalem's fate until that matter is fixed. Hell, it doesn't even recognize China and China is on the Human Right's Council**! The U.N. needs to solve its internal politics issues before it tries to solve a major problem of modern times.

    Another problem is with simply deciding "Oh hey we're taking your city " when, for all intents and purposes, that wouldn't solve anything. You'd still have Palestine and Gaza, run by terrorist organizations. They don't simply want Jerusalem; they want Israel wiped and the Jews killed. By taking land from the Jews, that goal is made easier.

    Besides, would you want Toronto handed over to the yanks to solve an age-old territory dispute? I think not!

    Edit:

    *Israel IS recognized. It's Jerusalem that's not recognized as part of Israel.

    **: The Chinese government isn't recognized, the country itself is.

    Nonny does point out in a later post that the U.N. is still pretty screwed up, my ignorance aside.

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    @Mister Giggles: Not a member of the UN? Are you sure? Various members of the Israeli government have addressed the UN general assembly at various times.

    I am in complete agreement that the UN needs to clean house. It is a top-heavy bureaucracy suitable for operation in the 1950s time frame and certainly not the lean and mean outfit it needs to be now. The time for cushy office suites is over, and the UN building in New York is in dire need of either demolition or serious maintenance. I vote for the former. Let the general assembly find some other place to roost, without all the fancy offices.

    The UN is like an overgoverment without any real power. Like all governments, it produces nothing. It is a consumer of tax dollars contributed by the member states, who get it from their citizens. Many so-called UN members haven't paid up their membership dues in many years. Each and every one of them should be chucked out of the organization until they do pay. If they can't pay, they are not eligible to be in a world body, but should stay at home and try to be more productive. Why should they luxuriate in quarters fit for a sultan while their people starve? Freeloaders, to home!

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  • Original Poster
  • @Nonny Moose

    I don't think it's a good idea to kick out the countries that can't pay. That will exclude the poor countries from world-politics and bring more power to the already powerful western world.

    I think the concept of the United Nations, a political body encompassing (almost) all recognized countries in the world, is very important and there should not even be a membership fee. Also, there should be no countries with veto powers.

    If you just let the UN be optional for countries, it will end up like the League of Nations, the predecessor of the UN, which failed, as it did not include big powers like the USA, the (at that time) Soviet Union and Germany.

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    The basic difference between the League of Nations and the UN is that the US was not a member of the League thanks to the isolationist temperament of the US at the time. How many Haile Selase's have appeared at the UN asking for help?

    As an operating body, the UN is far too unwieldy. The last time it really accomplished anything was the Korean Police action. Since then it has essentially been a debating society.

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    I think will-they, nil-they, the provocations by Hamas in firing long-range missiles at civilian cities is a no no, and the next thing they should expect to arrive on their soil is some heavy muscles with weapons attached. They are just asking to be occupied, and I really couldn't blame the Israelis if they did it.

    The Arab League had better get across to Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other terrorists outfits that Islam is a religion of Peace. Salaam is only a few orthographic shifts from shalom. Both are Semites and have virtually a common tongue, separated by a few thousand years of family squabble.

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    Clarifying: Israel did not start the current conflict. The terrorists shot first. Or rather, the terrorists escalated it on November 10th, resulting in Israel responding with Operation Pillar of Defense/Cloud on November 14th. This has caused further aggression. Given the recent history of conflicts in the region, I doubt this will result in an all out war unless one of Israel's enemies decides this is a grand time for an invasion.

    Implying the Palestinians are the terrorists here. Terrorism is a loaded term and the West has used it often as a term for their opponents, but one must remain that the opponent probably speads the same message about us.

    :rofl: Why can't people just get along :rofl:

    If only. Considering that Israel and the Jews did not even own the land 70 years ago, I really don't see they have any right to claim that the Palestinians are encroaching on their land.

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    @Mister Giggles: Not a member of the UN? Are you sure? Various members of the Israeli government have addressed the UN general assembly at various times.

    I am in complete agreement that the UN needs to clean house. It is a top-heavy bureaucracy suitable for operation in the 1950s time frame and certainly not the lean and mean outfit it needs to be now. The time for cushy office suites is over, and the UN building in New York is in dire need of either demolition or serious maintenance. I vote for the former. Let the general assembly find some other place to roost, without all the fancy offices.

    The UN is like an overgoverment without any real power. Like all governments, it produces nothing. It is a consumer of tax dollars contributed by the member states, who get it from their citizens. Many so-called UN members haven't paid up their membership dues in many years. Each and every one of them should be chucked out of the organization until they do pay. If they can't pay, they are not eligible to be in a world body, but should stay at home and try to be more productive. Why should they luxuriate in quarters fit for a sultan while their people starve? Freeloaders, to home!

    My apologies, Nonny. Jerusalem isn't recognized as a part of Israel. The U.N. doesn't recognize China's government. A bit more research would have saved us some time. :) However, the U.N. doesn't recognize Palestine as a nation, which I think is silly.

    That aside, I agree with your post. If we're going to have a universal body designed to cushion conflicts and force people to play nice with each other, it should be less...startlingly corrupt.

    Implying the Palestinians are the terrorists here. Terrorism is a loaded term and the West has used it often as a term for their opponents, but one must remain that the opponent probably speads the same message about us.

    I'm not implying the Palestinians are terrorists. If I thought the average Palestinian was a terrorist, I wouldn't imply it. I would flat out state that, "The Palestinians are terrorists". I do not believe the average Palestinian is a terrorist. I believe the average Palestinian is a victim, much as the average Israeli is. If you have clicked the very first link I included, you'd would have seen an article describing the dictatorial leadership of the Palestinians, Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization whose primary goal is the extermination of the Jews and the annihilation of Israel, using fear of this fact to keep Israeli's constantly afraid for their lives.

    Hamas is a classic terrorist organization and functions as such. I'm not conflating a violent, murderous group of barbarians such as Hamas with the United States' currently questionable definition of a terrorist. The word is far from loaded when it's used properly to describe a group. Granted, it's still sorta subjective - my terrorist can be your freedom fighter - but few people would disagree that a group is probably terroristic in nature when it seeks to further its goals by purposefully murdering innocent men, women, and children.

    If only. Considering that Israel and the Jews did not even own the land 70 years ago, I really don't see they have any right to claim that the Palestinians are encroaching on their land.

    Tired argument. What's done is done. You can't legitimize the actions of the terrorists because of a mistake 3 generations ago. This argument is also a highly subjective one, with blame shifting to other parties, depending on the date you argue from. England's fault? Roman Empire's fault? Ottoman Empire's fault? It's far better - although more difficult - to propose a workable solution that offers peace and the minimal amount of deaths required to get it.

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    Well, we have a lot of empty land and any productive, industrious people are generally welcome. I don't know that many Sabras would want to live north of sixty.

    Attitudes have changed greatly since the era of McKenzie King and others of his ilk. The basic problem is that the Jews want a country with international recognition, not a peaceful piece of land on which to live.

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    Well, we have a lot of empty land and any productive, industrious people are generally welcome. I don't know that many Sabras would want to live north of sixty.

    Attitudes have changed greatly since the era of McKenzie King and others of his ilk. The basic problem is that the Jews want a country with international recognition, not a peaceful piece of land on which to live.

    I stumbled upon a thought while I was thinking of a response to you. I don't know how accurate it is, but it seems to fit relative to the other horrible things happening in the world.

    The reason Israel is so high up on the list of interests is because it's the opposing magnetic pole of the region, and instability where most of the world's oil is produced is something to keep an intent eye on. If it weren't for the oil in the region and the worry among nations that a major war over there would result in gas shortages, Israel would be a backpage story regardless of what was happening. How often do you read about the genocide in Darfur, for instance, or the people still suffering in Haiti? People prioritize caring about what will affect their lives the most. It's sad, but true, that starving children in Honduras simply don't carry the same significance as liquefied dead things.

    :cry:

    ...I need a hug...

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    Meh, Hamas is like some idiot poking a grizzly bear with a stick. Thats just asking for the bear to wake up and rip you to shreds. I mean, seriously, even if you believe that the Palestinians have a point and are mistreated by Israel (they are) this is not how to make that point. From a strategic, operational and tactical point of view firing this rockets into civilian areas is just utterly stupid. Hamas does not have the military capability to take on the IDF, and these rockets do nothing but agitate the Israelians and endanger the lives of innocent civilians, thus provoking them to retaliate and Hamas also knows that retaliation by Israel will be infinitely more destructive. I suppose they hope that if Israel overreacts again that the international community will get angry at Israel. But at best the UN will make some half-assed statement about how they should stop and find a peaceful solution.

    The military means Hamas has are insufficient to accomplish their political goals and thus any use of them will only result in a lot of needless bloodshed.

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    Well, we have a lot of empty land and any productive, industrious people are generally welcome. I don't know that many Sabras would want to live north of sixty.

    Attitudes have changed greatly since the era of McKenzie King and others of his ilk. The basic problem is that the Jews want a country with international recognition, not a peaceful piece of land on which to live.

    I stumbled upon a thought while I was thinking of a response to you. I don't know how accurate it is, but it seems to fit relative to the other horrible things happening in the world.

    The reason Israel is so high up on the list of interests is because it's the opposing magnetic pole of the region, and instability where most of the world's oil is produced is something to keep an intent eye on. If it weren't for the oil in the region and the worry among nations that a major war over there would result in gas shortages, Israel would be a backpage story regardless of what was happening. How often do you read about the genocide in Darfur, for instance, or the people still suffering in Haiti? People prioritize caring about what will affect their lives the most. It's sad, but true, that starving children in Honduras simply don't carry the same significance as liquefied dead things.

    :cry:

    ...I need a hug...

    *** HUG ***

    Our friend in the low countries is quite right. The IDF could rise up and swat Hamas, but the result will be a lot of innocent bloodshed. Gaza is an illegal and terrorist state that has grown out of a vicious refugee camp. In fact, for most nations it is not even a state.

    I am afraid the only real solution is for Israel to occupy Gaza and rattle their nuclear arms. They might have to swat Iran in the process. The time for rabid religious movements, especially in Islam, has passed. All this extremism is out of step with the world where most nations just want to trade.

    The United States will soon be self-sufficient in oil, and I expect that the Israel expedient will go on the back burner once that happens. And so maybe the time for an Israeli hegemony at that end of the Med is now due. Syria is a failed state, Iran is not much better. Lebanon is the doormat for the terrorist organizations, principally Hezbollah which needs some capital surgery. Jordan and Egypt have their own problems.

    Overall, Islam is a world-class religion with its own unsettled schisms which need to be either reconciled or officially separated. Christianity went through these growing pains at about the same age. It is time for Islam to grow up.

    The ultimate solution is nearly unthinkable. A lake of radioactive glass and sand.

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    Israel is distracting the world of real problems... not sure of what could be that problems, but I'm sure that there are more important things. Since Israel is occupying a territory and displacing other people without counting a real solution, is totally obviously that Israel will press in its favor, without counting who gets in the way and the disadvantage of the people who can't defend of the offensives.

    The worst faces are here: Hamas and the Yihad, Israel and the Zionism.

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    Our friend in the low countries is quite right. The IDF could rise up and swat Hamas, but the result will be a lot of innocent bloodshed. Gaza is an illegal and terrorist state that has grown out of a vicious refugee camp. In fact, for most nations it is not even a state.

    I am afraid the only real solution is for Israel to occupy Gaza and rattle their nuclear arms. They might have to swat Iran in the process. The time for rabid religious movements, especially in Islam, has passed. All this extremism is out of step with the world where most nations just want to trade.

    No wait, no offense, but I did not say that the IDF can swat Hamas. I said Hamas cant win from the IDF in a straight up fight and I said that the IDF can do infinitely more damage than Hamas. But that doesnt mean the IDF can actually win from Hamas just like that. Im sorry if I wasnt clear.

    The IDF is a conventional army, and conventional armies are very useful for fighting conventional war. But Hamas doesnt fight a conventional war and the IDF is just as bad as any other conventional army at fighting a non conventional war. Every time Israel kills some Palestinian in an airstrike, it strengthens the base of Hamas. That however, will simply never be enough to achieve the political goal of a truly independent Palestinian state. It will not be enough to engage the IDF directly. Why else do you think they deliberately target civilian areas with those useless rockets? Its a sign of weakness. So when I said that Israel can do more damage, I meant they do more damage to the Gaza strip in terms of destruction of property, economy and life. If the IDF hits Gaza, the people feel it. If Hamas hits Israel, its a mere annoyance.

    An occupation of Gaza could work, under the strict condition that the area gets annexed, Palestinians get full citizenship and equal rights and benefits, their economy gets improved and the Gaza strip as a whole gets rebuild. The Palestinians need to benefit massively from the occupation that peace becomes the more desirable state than this unwinnable war for an independent state. However, this is politically not done, seeing how the Israeli state is essentially racist.

    The ultimate solution is nearly unthinkable. A lake of radioactive glass and sand.

    It is unthinkable. There is a taboo against the use of nuclear weapons, let alone against using them against such a dense urban area with so many innocent civilians that have no significant military power. Using a nuclear weapon on Gaza will be political suicide. Not even Washington will support Israel in that, and you can bet that it will unite the whole Arab world against Israel and they will launch a major offensive against Israel itself.

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