Discussion about City Tile Size

[BravoGreenONE 120]

Water and sewage has to be simulated. That's part of the engine being more in depth and complete. They're not being simulated for the sake of you being able to look at the blobs floating down the road. That's just a visual representation for your sake so you can get an idea of how stuff is working and see where problems may be occurring if there's a problem with your water or sewage.

So short of straight removing water/sewage from the game entirely, what would you have Maxis do besides simulating water and sewage?

My personal opinion is they should be an optional layer, with the default as off. Id take the larger map size

[nhgriffith 179]

What should be optional? The simulation of the water/sewage, or the visual representation of the water/sewage?

[Dirktator 2,326]

Water and sewage has to be simulated. That's part of the engine being more in depth and complete. They're not being simulated for the sake of you being able to look at the blobs floating down the road. That's just a visual representation for your sake so you can get an idea of how stuff is working and see where problems may be occurring if there's a problem with your water or sewage.

So short of straight removing water/sewage from the game entirely, what would you have Maxis do besides simulating water and sewage?

 

100% agreed.  Seeing actual water and sewage agents move through your city makes it clear that a.) you have a problem and b.) where the problem physically exists.

 

As far as mass transit go, because of the relatively smaller sizes of the cities (what Maxis terms "intimate" sizes) some mass transit options might not always make sense for the kind of city you're building. Still, passenger trains and ferries are crucial to bring in sims from neighboring cities to fulfill your goals, it seems like their use will be almost unavoidable. Since in the fiction that Maxis is creating here, a city doesn't exist in a total vacuum.

[Sunfighter 186]

Water and sewage has to be simulated. That's part of the engine being more in depth and complete. They're not being simulated for the sake of you being able to look at the blobs floating down the road. That's just a visual representation for your sake so you can get an idea of how stuff is working and see where problems may be occurring if there's a problem with your water or sewage.

So short of straight removing water/sewage from the game entirely, what would you have Maxis do besides simulating water and sewage?

 

100% agreed.  Seeing actual water and sewage agents move through your city makes it clear that a.) you have a problem and b.) where the problem physically exists.

 

As far as mass transit go, because of the relatively smaller sizes of the cities (what Maxis terms "intimate" sizes) some mass transit options might not always make sense for the kind of city you're building. Still, passenger trains and ferries are crucial to bring in sims from neighboring cities to fulfill your goals, it seems like their use will be almost unavoidable. Since in the fiction that Maxis is creating here, a city doesn't exist in a total vacuum.

 

I think another reason they have so much trouble with other mass transit options is because the glassbox engine seems to function only on road connections and it seems very time consuming to get it to function on anything else. They worked out that flaw on trains by the game treating the rail lines as if they were roads, hence that early bug where trains were stopping at intersections.

[AkemiAzula 280]

"Now imagine if over the next 15 years, Maxis, SimCity, and the GlassBox engine take the same trajectory that the original four SimCity games took. Maybe this is the way we should really be looking at this new game. Just look at the difference between the original SimCity and SimCity 2000. That's only a five year gap.

Once 2013 gets released, what's going to happen to the SimCity people at Maxis? Well, if the game is a massive success, here's what will happen. A few people will be working on DLC, expansions, etc., for a continued source of income for Maxis and to enhance what already looks to be a great game on release. And maybe expanding the maps will be part of what gets worked on for SimCity 2013.

Meanwhile... after a bit of a break, the work on the next SimCity game will probably begin. By 2015 at the latest, I imagine, they'll start working on the next one and shoot for a 2017 or 2018 release. Chances are probably pretty good that 2013 is only the tip of the iceberg on the actual capabilities of the GlassBox engine. So give consumers 5 years better computers, and give the programmers and designers 5 more years to really dig in really deep with the GlassBox engine."

 

Agreed. This is the way I think we should feel regarding the compromised elements of the new game. If we drop our support for EA/Maxis it's like dropping support for a football team because they've got a new manager, or lost too many games. That doesn't solve the problem, and while I support Buggi's plans for BoomTown, which I by the way view as an alternative concept rather than a purely competitive one, I will remain with the new game, hoping that they indeed use its success in the aforequoted manner.

 

Certainly Mr Quigley appears to love his engine, and I can see potential in it. Not only is it getting to the point of real simulations now, but it, by virtue of its nature founded upon honest representation rather than vague statistics, is a tool which I believe, given investment, shall shine in many a shed. I foresee a bright future for this game. EA would be foolish to not carry out further evolution utilising this engine. It is a resource, that if wisely used, could really show its worth.

 

So back to tile size, my conclusion is that, yes it is a compromise, but a rational compromise. And, if the future lays in the direction one foresees, a temporary compromise.
 

[BravoGreenONE 120]

Im just not buying the fact that this thing could not be optimized to handle something slightly bigger. If they had 3km squared maps id be inclined enough to buy the game. And thats even with the lack of highway options.

[nhgriffith 179]

You realize 3km isn't 50% bigger, right? It's 225% bigger. 4km^2 to 9km^2.

And the ratio of agent increase is even larger. It's a massive jump up in size. Like I said, the bigger tiles may come with a patch later, but they'll definitely be in future installments of the game. But as big as the size gap is between 2km or 3km or 4km, the simulation gap between SC4 and SC2013 is still way larger.

[Sunfighter 186]

You realize 3km isn't 50% bigger, right? It's 225% bigger. 4km^2 to 9km^2.

And the ratio of agent increase is even larger. It's a massive jump up in size. Like I said, the bigger tiles may come with a patch later, but they'll definitely be in future installments of the game. But as big as the size gap is between 2km or 3km or 4km, the simulation gap between SC4 and SC2013 is still way larger.

 

The problem is that in a sandbox game, it should be up to the players, and not the developers to determine what is the limit their computer can handle. I dont full buy the computer limitations excuse honestly. I think its because regional play and leaderboards are the main focus of this game. And it would be "unfair" to have the "1%ers" with mega computers having the largest cities on the largest maps with every resource leading on all the boards. Plus theyd have to make all those said maps, since they dont have a random regional generator or anything. (they desperately need to add that if they arnt gonna allow regional terraforming )

[BravoGreenONE 120]

You realize 3km isn't 50% bigger, right? It's 225% bigger. 4km^2 to 9km^2.

And the ratio of agent increase is even larger. It's a massive jump up in size. Like I said, the bigger tiles may come with a patch later, but they'll definitely be in future installments of the game. But as big as the size gap is between 2km or 3km or 4km, the simulation gap between SC4 and SC2013 is still way larger.

The problem is that in a sandbox game, it should be up to the players, and not the developers to determine what is the limit their computer can handle. I dont full buy the computer limitations excuse honestly. I think its because regional play and leaderboards are the main focus of this game. And it would be "unfair" to have the "1%ers" with mega computers having the largest cities on the largest maps with every resource leading on all the boards. Plus theyd have to make all those said maps, since they dont have a random regional generator or anything. (they desperately need to add that if they arnt gonna allow regional terraforming ) Nhgriffith: just for the record that would be 125% larger. You have to subtract 100 as you are saying that it is larger and not the area of.

Regardless, the rediculous size of the map should not have made this game. Either the developers were too ambitous, did not multithread this thing effeciently, or are too restrictive. Id say it is the latter. Cant we have a box to check that would give us larger maps and took us out of the leaderboards. To me the whole idea 9f leaderboards is uber childish. Do you really need a game to give you a sense of accomplishment? If you need some assurance send me a message and lll tell you how wonderful you are and how the world would stop spinning without you on it.

Just let me have a decent map size and let me play without the idiotic leaderboards. Dont worry about my lag ive a decent enough rig. And if it were the case that I would have lag (with an i7 16gig ram 2 gig video card im sure id be ok), id rather have a slowed system than an absurd map size. And thats what it is-absurd.

[nhgriffith 179]

You realize the tile size is the same as the medium SimCity 4 tile, right?

[Sunfighter 186]

You realize the tile size is the same as the medium SimCity 4 tile, right?

 

no its not. The scales are different. 2km in this new simcity isnt the same as 2km in SC4. You can easily see that.

[BravoGreenONE 120]

You realize the tile size is the same as the medium SimCity 4 tile, right?

no its not. The scales are different. 2km in this new simcity isnt the same as 2km in SC4. You can easily see that. AND sc4 offerered larger AND contiguous maps. And before you resspond that the new Sim City is new and dynamic in that the job only starts with filling the map- the same would apply to a larger map, requiring even more time and attention than the puny map provided.

[sumoncpi 0]

Black = 1x1 km (small city tile)
- Red= 2x2 km (medium city tile)
- Blue = 4x4 km (large city tile)
- Green = 8x8 km ("extra large" city tile)

[glazert 89]

Black = 1x1 km (small city tile)

- Red= 2x2 km (medium city tile)

- Blue = 4x4 km (large city tile)

- Green = 8x8 km ("extra large" city tile)

I assume you were intending to refer to SC4? And to the RGB config image for a region? If so I don't know where you got black from or the idea that there are 8x8km tiles in SC4 (if only).

 

The correct colours are:

- Small 1x1 red

- Medium 2x2 green

- Large 4x4 blue

[Harlequeen 0]

I'm interested to know just how difficult the Glass box engine is.  If a normal simcity NxN is O(N^2), assuming standard agent density, what order is the new simulation?  O(N^3ln(N)) or even higher?

[nhgriffith 179]

You realize the tile size is the same as the medium SimCity 4 tile, right?

no its not. The scales are different. 2km in this new simcity isnt the same as 2km in SC4. You can easily see that. AND sc4 offerered larger AND contiguous maps. And before you resspond that the new Sim City is new and dynamic in that the job only starts with filling the map- the same would apply to a larger map, requiring even more time and attention than the puny map provided. I can't just not mention the simulation engine though. It's the entire reason for the smaller map size. SC4 is only larger in 2dimensions. But it's flat. Sc2013 isn't flat.

Is a 50" monitor displaying 640x480 resolution really bigger than a 24" monitor displaying 1600x1200 resolution?

[BravoGreenONE 120]

You realize the tile size is the same as the medium SimCity 4 tile, right?

no its not. The scales are different. 2km in this new simcity isnt the same as 2km in SC4. You can easily see that.AND sc4 offerered larger AND contiguous maps. And before you resspond that the new Sim City is new and dynamic in that the job only starts with filling the map- the same would apply to a larger map, requiring even more time and attention than the puny map provided.I can't just not mention the simulation engine though. It's the entire reason for the smaller map size. SC4 is only larger in 2dimensions. But it's flat. Sc2013 isn't flat.

Is a 50" monitor displaying 640x480 resolution really bigger than a 24" monitor displaying 1600x1200 resolution?

I've watched the betas. Those maps were filled with ease. Services were included. Sure a few things were locked. That may add a few hours. And before we go back on nuances, in the end sc4 gave the player more time per region than this thing. And ill even have the argument one hand behind my back. Im not even asking Sc2013 have the map space. Im just asking that it not be stupidly small. If your so content with this size as youll argue as its sufficient to no end then dont play larger maps if they offer then, as what is there now is more than adequate for you.

[croxis 150]

 

 

 

You realize the tile size is the same as the medium SimCity 4 tile, right?

no its not. The scales are different. 2km in this new simcity isnt the same as 2km in SC4. You can easily see that. AND sc4 offerered larger AND contiguous maps. And before you resspond that the new Sim City is new and dynamic in that the job only starts with filling the map- the same would apply to a larger map, requiring even more time and attention than the puny map provided. I can't just not mention the simulation engine though. It's the entire reason for the smaller map size. SC4 is only larger in 2dimensions. But it's flat. Sc2013 isn't flat.

Is a 50" monitor displaying 640x480 resolution really bigger than a 24" monitor displaying 1600x1200 resolution?

I've watched the betas. Those maps were filled with ease. Services were included. Sure a few things were locked. That may add a few hours. And before we go back on nuances, in the end sc4 gave the player more time per region than this thing. And ill even have the argument one hand behind my back. Im not even asking Sc2013 have the map space. Im just asking that it not be stupidly small. If your so content with this size as youll argue as its sufficient to no end then dont play larger maps if they offer then, as what is there now is more than adequate for you.

They have mentioned in recent interviews/tweets/reddit that the final game balance will be a lot longer to fill up (road costs were increased as one example). The reason why the beta was so quick to fill up is they wanted to get as much data as possible during the beta. The other option would be to keep the realistic scale and no time limit, but fewer people would make it to that stage.

[nhgriffith 179]

I've watched the betas. Those maps were filled with ease. Services were included. Sure a few things were locked. That may add a few hours. And before we go back on nuances, in the end sc4 gave the player more time per region than this thing. And ill even have the argument one hand behind my back. Im not even asking Sc2013 have the map space. Im just asking that it not be stupidly small. If your so content with this size as youll argue as its sufficient to no end then dont play larger maps if they offer then, as what is there now is more than adequate for you.

They have mentioned in recent interviews/tweets/reddit that the final game balance will be a lot longer to fill up (road costs were increased as one example). The reason why the beta was so quick to fill up is they wanted to get as much data as possible during the beta. The other option would be to keep the realistic scale and no time limit, but fewer people would make it to that stage.

 

[BravoGreenONE 120]

You realize the tile size is the same as the medium SimCity 4 tile, right?

no its not. The scales are different. 2km in this new simcity isnt the same as 2km in SC4. You can easily see that.AND sc4 offerered larger AND contiguous maps. And before you resspond that the new Sim City is new and dynamic in that the job only starts with filling the map- the same would apply to a larger map, requiring even more time and attention than the puny map provided.I can't just not mention the simulation engine though. It's the entire reason for the smaller map size. SC4 is only larger in 2dimensions. But it's flat. Sc2013 isn't flat.

Is a 50" monitor displaying 640x480 resolution really bigger than a 24" monitor displaying 1600x1200 resolution? I've watched the betas. Those maps were filled with ease. Services were included. Sure a few things were locked. That may add a few hours. And before we go back on nuances, in the end sc4 gave the player more time per region than this thing. And ill even have the argument one hand behind my back. Im not even asking Sc2013 have the map space. Im just asking that it not be stupidly small. If your so content with this size as youll argue as its sufficient to no end then dont play larger maps if they offer then, as what is there now is more than adequate for you. They have mentioned in recent interviews/tweets/reddit that the final game balance will be a lot longer to fill up (road costs were increased as one example). The reason why the beta was so quick to fill up is they wanted to get as much data as possible during the beta. The other option would be to keep the realistic scale and no time limit, but fewer people would make it to that stage.

I just dont understand some of you sometimes. This thread is a push for bigger maps. What is so bad about pressing for bigger maps? Look around here, simcity forums, or the comments on youtube videos. I am one of many, many people who thinks thinks the maps are ridiculously small. Remember Ocean only tweeted after people made numerous comments about the map size. If you want larger maps later on then it might be advantageous for you to get on board.

Im not saying buy or dont buy the game. I have chosen not too. And if there are not enough of us that hold out you may never see or maxis may drag its feet with larger maps

[Arvendragon 1]

Remember that SimCity is not supposed to be SimCity 5, but a complete reboot.

 

GlassBox is a focus on depth, not on width. Previous simulations worked top-down. GlassBox works bottom-up. As previously stated, if the game is successful, the scales will likely increase, especially with better performance computers. 

 

I don't think the 2x2 size is too much of an issue. Except for the perfectionist CJ-er's in SC4, not many people spent that long on small areas outside their CBDs. The new focus on the small and making it vibrant will likely allow me to spend much more time, even though the city is smaller.

 

The regions and inter-connectibility of the cities is an issue, but one good thing about always-online and a large development team of EA-Maxis; constant DLC and updates.

 

Definitely PUSH for bigger maps. Everyone loves bigger maps. But at this stage, I think there are more pressing issues such as stability, balance, servers, etc.

[Zukunftstraume 220]

Multiplayer is fun there is no doubt about it. Offline single player games are quite dull in comparison. I have greatly enjoyed many of my multiplayer experiences, and they are probably more memorable than my offline experiences as well. You simply cannot beat playing a game with other real people.

 

To enable multiplayer certain features have to be removed such as terraforming. I really dont see that as much of a loss myself. I am happy to be able to choose plots with certain fixed limitations. Thats just 'real life'. I hate having to terraform my area before I build in SC4 anyway.

 

Depends... Multiplayer can be either incredibly fun or incredibly painful. FPS are almost always better online. RPG's are half and half for me: MP takes away from being able to do things that your own pace in the sense that being in parties involves playing with others to adjust to their speed, or the dreaded respawn time for quests. While MP also adds to exciting new challenges instead of having overly redundant gameplay.

 

On the other hand, I have yet to play a good online simulation game. I'm having some hard time picturing a game like RollerCoaster Tycoon, Airport Tycoon, or even a true SimCity 5 going online. These games seem to be better off being played by one player and only one player.

 

Also, not having to terraform anything was also an option in SC4 (an all past SC's for that matter, all you had to do was select a pre-made region or landscaped city instead of creating your own from scratch)... This time however, they completely took out terraforming altogether! Which is an extreme let-down for many of us. It was never in your disadvantage, but now it's certainly in ours... And some of us feel discriminated against or left out in the rain.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Well hopefully they'll give us bigger tile sizes in the future at some point.

[loger95 4]

I have to say that i'm not a fan of the new tile sizes, creating a big city and keeping it realistic seems impossible. I don't know about the rest of the SC players but realism is a very big thing for me with city building. I think the simulation of this game looks great though.

[croxis 150]

Sure, I would love larger city tiles. I don't thing anyone is arguing against having larger tiles.

 

For all the gnashing of teeth and boycotting the game "because EA" has the change you (the generic you, not a specific person) been looking for happened?

 

No?

 

So maybe another strategy is needed.

 

I think people could be put into one of three groups on this issue:

1) People who don't care (and are often a big group, even the majority). They don't care so they don't post.

2) People who don't like the small tiles and go wailing on forums and youtube (the most vocal so they seem like the majority)

3) People who don't like the small tiles, probably grumble at first, but continue to investigate it, think about it, and see how it actually plays in beta and demos.

 

At first it felt like the forums was mostly in group2, but after the demos and people given some time I think more and more are in group 3.

[croxis 150]

[Removed reference to removed text]

 

Increasing tile size isn't as simple a matter of adding #include "4kmcity.h" to the source, compile, and tile size are bigger with no problems. There are simulation, graphic, network, ui, and performance issues as well as balance issues and Q/A that have to be considered and planned for. I personally think many of these problems were allready addressed and take the devs at face value, that for the resolution of the simulation and how new the engine is the peformance penalties are just too much. It wil take improvements in technology, consumer "standard" computer, and iterations and optimization of the engine to get larger city tiles.

 

Also, quick check of wikipedia is that the plans for the pentagon were not done in one weekend, but concurrent with construction where construction even outpased the plans.

 

And yes EA is going to milk me for what they are worth. They are a pubiclly owned company and are beholden to their shareholders to max out their short term profits. This has almost always been the case, it is just less obvious in the consumer goods market.  There are always exceptions (Nintento is a great example), but I am not convinced it has ever been the rule outside of local buisness.

  Edited February 28, 2013 by Blue Lightning  

[nhgriffith 179]

BravoGreenONE, do you understand that EA/Maxis has to sell this game to more people than just you, right?

And part of selling the game means having reasonable hardware requirements on the side of the box. Now, the minimum requirements listed are the hardware requirements it takes to run EVERY aspect of the game with the lowest possible graphics settings.

Making the map even slightly bigger without changing anything else DRASTICALLY increases the hardware requirements, even with the lowest graphical settings. And the more they bump up those requirements, the smaller their pool of customers becomes.

There are big time SimCity fans that don't have top of the line computers. In fact, there are even members of this very forum who have already stated that they won't be getting the new game simply because their computer isn't good enough as is. And the simple fact of the matter is, on the business end of things, there are more customers that would be lost by upping the hardware requirements then what are currently lost in disgruntled fans like yourself who are choosing not to buy the game because they think the map is too small (it's not, by the way, and I still contest that I can fill an SC4 map up just as fast).

[the_architect25 5]

BravoGreenONE, do you understand that EA/Maxis has to sell this game to more people than just you, right?

And part of selling the game means having reasonable hardware requirements on the side of the box. Now, the minimum requirements listed are the hardware requirements it takes to run EVERY aspect of the game with the lowest possible graphics settings.

Making the map even slightly bigger without changing anything else DRASTICALLY increases the hardware requirements, even with the lowest graphical settings. And the more they bump up those requirements, the smaller their pool of customers becomes.

There are big time SimCity fans that don't have top of the line computers. In fact, there are even members of this very forum who have already stated that they won't be getting the new game simply because their computer isn't good enough as is. And the simple fact of the matter is, on the business end of things, there are more customers that would be lost by upping the hardware requirements then what are currently lost in disgruntled fans like yourself who are choosing not to buy the game because they think the map is too small (it's not, by the way, and I still contest that I can fill an SC4 map up just as fast).

I see your point, but instead of the limited/deluxe edition why not make a version for gamers who have big rigs and can run large tiles etc? The game is beautiful, but the more I watch the beta videos the more I see how the small tiles will be meh... average. We / I have been spoiled from SC4 with all the options and BATs that were made.

[Vahr 343]

Geometry time, methinks.

 

For a city tile 128x128 units, there are 16,384 square units.

For a city tile 256x256 (2x length), there are 65,536 square units (4x a 128x128 city).

So if we assume the relation that the more area you have, the more buildings, roads, etc you can have, you can see why increasing city size by only double would pose a much larger issue in the data and processing department. Especially considering that the game uses internet and needs to send a lot of this data back and forth, size is an issue.

 

Now SC4 was able to mitigate this to an extent, because many of the simulations it ran were statistical generalizations, and it didn't have to run online. But even then many people do notice a considerable drop in performance between a fully filled small city tile and a moderately filled large city tile.

[BravoGreenONE 120]

@croxis

The initial plans for the pentagon were told to be on the desk by 9am monday. Yes they were elaborated upon but the initial phase had more than enough challenges.

And yes I expect companies to maximize profits, but it may be unwise to burn your consumers. In any event the consumers should be pushing on their end to get the best product available.

@griffith

Yes I realize glassbox has more demand for power and I realize that the pool shrinks as the requirements go up. But it doesnt have to be one way or the other. Im hoping in the very least that expansions are availiable that will open things up. im sure there are other ways about it.

Until they do Ill waitcand wait until its at a reduced price since or if it was not available at release. Im watching these latest videos on the unlocked betas and am more alarmed then before.