Still around people

[Buggi 685]

Hey everyone. I'm still around.

I put an immense amount of work into a new SimCity design document that I hope will be made eventually. Technology today has come a long way and part of my design is a region where cities exist on a organic basis and not a square grid. The main challenge of the entire design is the landscape and the technical hurdles that need to be jumped to get it to work. I will post more as I get the time and if there is interest.

My original hope was to present the design to Maxis and build a team to make the game, but I'm not sure the powers that be would put money into a genre that is on a major hiatus.

The one thing I would need if I pursue the design independantly are 3D modelers. I can code like a MF, but can't find my way round Max or Maya to save my life.

Thanks all.

[lloydyboy232 12]

Sounds friggen awesome Buggi!!! So what, is it just a mod or something?

[Dirktator 2,327]

Hey everyone. I'm still around.

I put an immense amount of work into a new SimCity design document that I hope will be made eventually. Technology today has come a long way and part of my design is a region where cities exist on a organic basis and not a square grid. The main challenge of the entire design is the landscape and the technical hurdles that need to be jumped to get it to work. I will post more as I get the time and if there is interest.

My original hope was to present the design to Maxis and build a team to make the game, but I'm not sure the powers that be would put money into a genre that is on a major hiatus.

The one thing I would need if I pursue the design independantly are 3D modelers. I can code like a MF, but can't find my way round Max or Maya to save my life.

Thanks all.

Buggi the legend lives on... Nice to see you, my fine feathered friend...!!

[Gringamuyloca 47]

Hey everyone. I'm still around.

Snip....... I will post more as I get the time and if there is interest.

...snip

Thanks all.

Count me as 'interested'!

So cool to see you here!

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Might be worth a look a Blender.

And have you considered making the game source portable so you can have multiple binary versions? It probably means writing in C without any Microsoft extensions. The g++ compiler (free) is available in a Windows version, so you are not constrained to use Microsoft's software at all, and you could abandon DirectX for OpenGL. Making the program source portable is simply a matter of #if directives in the main header file and some options in the make file.

It sure would be nice to get a native format in whatever operating system you were running. You'd need Microsoft.exe, whatever apple uses, and a Linux version. This kind of code can be found on the net. You would then pick up the 30% of the market that is not windows.

One of the considerations would be to provide a tool to convert relevant existing extended content, and to keep it open ended for mods.

If you really stay source portable, you might even be able to make it work on consoles and cell phones.

How are you at multi-threading?

[DuskTrooper 316]

My, haven't seen you around here since the good ol' days, around 2004/2005 or so! Then again, I haven't been around here myself much either...

[Vahr 343]

I'd be glad to offer up the transit-oriented modeling skills I have (ie viaduct/overpass/bridge models), and to work on the transit system in general. Could easily write up the equivalent of RULs if need be.

[beesje 0]

I know my way around max quite well. If I can be off any help let me know!

[Buggi 685]

Thanks for the replies people, I like to know that I'm still remembered around here. I see the extra cheats DLL file I posted is still used. Fantastic.

What I'm looking at is a complete re-write of the engine and back-end. And while I have thought very hard about what platform to pursue it in, be that C++, or something more 'open source' it all depends on the corporate side of things.

I am by no means a master coder, so some of the more hard-core things will have to be researched further. My design document is roughly 90 pages long and includes many features that may or not make it in the final version. Truth is, I don't want to start a project (independant or corporate sponsored) and drag it out for years and years. I'd like to hammer out an engine and begin coding the details as quickly as possible. This might mean starting with the Unreal Engine SDK to start and going from there. Though I don't know what the limitations are of that platform in detail yet.

Like I said, it's all very preliminary. A lot depends on the size of the customer base the game would have. A company wouldn't look at something if it wouldn't be profitable, and there is no such thing as a free lunch. If I can't get EA to seriously consider the project then I have to look at corporate sponsors to fund the bulk of it. For example, Coke could sponser their headquarters as well as other (secret) things.

[Buggi 685]

I'm a realist when it comes to game design, so some features I included in the design are there because I understand why Maxis made it that way.

But many SC4 limitations can be tweaked to include a more expansive playing style.

I'm getting ahead of myself, however. I should step back and tell you about the basics first. When designing my version of SimCity I asked myself one question:

"How do cities form?"

Look at history, the two main reasons cities have formed are because of resources or strategic importance. A port or an area of high ground are examples of strategic importance. But eliminating the political aspect and wars altogether (as it isn't SimPolitics) I was stuck with Resources.

So the base of a region are the resources contained within it. IE fertile land or mineral deposits. So the first element of the design is the inclusion of a very robust Region which includes layers of resources (moddable of course). These can be as simple as "Coal" to something very unique like "Uranium". The number of layers is virtually unlimited, so you can have an easy-to-access oil layer, to a deep oil on a different layer.

Resource access is dictated by either average education level of a city or some scripted event or trigger (like building a BP oil headquarters).

The easiest way to explain this design feature is to give you a hypethical scenario for a new game...

On a new region, empty, the player places a city starting lot, the Founders Home. This lot has a set radius that it covers, opening that land to the new city, lets call it "Frontier". Inside this area is some rich farmland, which prompts the mayor to build a farm. So a nice Wheat farm is built, consuming a large area of land and demanding.. say 100 workers. Residential demand shoots up.

But wait, a coal seam is found near the surface, and the game prompts the mayor if they'd like to start a coal mine, if the player goes for it, the mine will employ... say 250 sims, further driving up demand for residential.

Residential is built, driving commercial, which also bumps residential. Before you know it you have a population of about 500.

------------

Now this was a simplistic version of how I see my game working. I also include "tourism" as a major resource, so a city can be built entirely by the beauty of it's location.

Let me know what you think.

[jacksunny 741]

Sounds interesting. I especially like the tourism side of things. It would basically be like saying: "If you build your city by the mountains, commercial demand will get very high very fast."

I just thought I'd through in something I would like to see in a new game. I've always found that there are a lot of things in Simcity that could be improved, but one that really bothers me is the fact that you just build a huge metropolis in the middle of no where. There is no way for the Sims to get there, making the game completely unrealistic. I think you should have to start out on the edges of the region. In your city, there will be neighbor connections already connecting to a city that we will say is there. They could be all kinds of different transportation networks. You can destroy them, but you must leave at least one so Sims from the neighboring city can get to yours.

I hope this wasn't too confusing. I wasn't quite sure how to explain it myself.

Good luck!!!

Jack

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

I like the idea of a premade neighbor connection to the "next" region. Jack has a good point. The Sims have to come from somewhere.

A resource-based game would be rather good. I like your scenario, Buggi, and I suggest that if we can have mineral seams and deposits, we should also be able to have water tables at various elevations, thus lakes and streams. Reloading such a resource would probably need off-line weather (doing weather on-line is a complication that could be left for an expansion pack). It does mean that any region except a desert would also have to have some kind of watershed connected off-region.

One of the resource surprises could be some diamond pipes. Very rare, but they should be possible when the region is generated. If you go for uranium deposits, why not go for the whole geological scene. Another expansion could be Paleontology. All it takes is some sedimentary folded mountains and a little creativity. Something like the badlands of Colorado or Alberta. And of course there's gold in them thar hills.

One of the reasons for a settlement is often a river mouth or a sheltered bay. Seaborne commerce could be a good thing, and goods should be able to move between cities and off the region with some sanity. Just dumping it in the bit bucket is a bit abrupt.

With a resource scenario there needs to be two kinds of goods: stuff and things. Stuff is raw materials which can be both solid and fluid, so you need handling for each of these. Things are made from stuff.

If you are going to have coal seams, you need to consider natural gas and oil. So drilling and pipelines are in order along with gas and oil well pumps and exploration towers for drilling. You could even have an off-shore drilling and production expansion pack.

Backing all this up, you'd need a reasonable economic model. Nothing quite so simplistic as SC4, and a banking system to allow for exchange between city tiles. The idea of self-sufficient cities should be done away with. If city A has an airport, it should attract passengers and freight from the entire area. The same with a seaport.

Garbage should be movable by rail, road, and sea. Garbage barges that run off the edge of the world would be a good disposing method. Of course land-fills and incinerators should be allowed, but modern incinerators that produce nothing but captured gases and water. Fossil burning power plants need to be limited to very early stages and should be easily replaced.

I think that's enough, for now. I hope these ideas are helpful.

  Edited July 30, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Buggi, I did a little more research on system independent platforms and I think you should have a look at either of these:

GTK2

GTK3

All this stuff is free and available under the General public licence. So is the g++ compiler and any needed tool kits. If you have any leanings toward portability, this is probably a good starting place.

[Djohaal 121]

I can model, if you need any help poke me.

[Buggi 685]

Man, I put out the extracheats DLL file and I only have a 10 reputation...

Sad..

Anyway, I like your ideas moose. The main reason I designed the resource system as moddable is because there is no way I could think of all the ideas (palentology!! love it) the community could come up with.

The water system is very tentative at this point, but right now I have it include multiple water levels. There would be a system to define areas of ocean, lake, and river. No underground water resource layer would be visible, but you could have it, easily for like a desert region or something.

Resources are depleatable and reloadable. So something like coal would be used up eventually while something like a aquifer would slowly refresh itself. This leads to the player needing to diversify their cities if they want them to survive.

My SimCity design very much runs on jobs. Job's would be driven by major industry lots, which I dub "Keystone Lots" which can take the form of "Coal Mine" to "Water Park" (tourism) to "Region Capitol Building".

Remember, I reserve the name of Keystone Lot. It's Mine I say!

[beebs 129]

Man, I put out the extracheats DLL file and I only have a 10 reputation...

Sad..

The reputation system only came into place in March this year. Don't fret too much about that number, I can assure you it has been a hit since its release!

And I'm glad to see you're still around.. looking forward to seeing what you can cook up with this new venture!

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Buggi, don't worry about your reputation. It is astronomical. The present system just got going, and my very much undeserved number sky rocketed without any urging on my part, believe me. If you post more, we'll have an opportunity to boost it more.

[Buggi 685]

I tried to design the transit system as best as I could and keep it both moddable and useful. Because of the limitations of computers to simulate "space" it's difficult to do a nice job of multi-tier transit while keeping it from looking horrible.

So my system still uses lots and puzzlepieces to a certain extent. I call them "transit modifiers" or T-Mods.

Yeah, I coined a lot of new terms with the design. sue me.

I have limited knowledge of the transit system SC4 uses, and need to do some more research on it to determine the best features to continue using. It would be SO helpful if someone on the NAM team could write up a document showcasing what SC4 does for the transit system. From paths to lots to everything. Along with some ideas on how to improve the overall experience of using transit.

I have so many features in my design, I need to finalize all of them before heading into development waters.

Oh, and I don't include any attempt to make SimCity multiplayer. That concept has failed other attempts more than once. I do include the ability to upload to a city or region "diary" or journal that can be shared among all players. SimCity is a single player game and will remain so, IMHO.

[Ledhead 2]

Why not to begin a city/town, send Land Surveyors out to survey the land to establish regional boundaries, say Township and Range lines, then those are broken down by Sections to establish City Boundaries. Just a thought and only because I am a Land Surveyor and that most all land west of the Mississippi was broken down that way to establish State boundaries and such. Then when your city needs to expand it can purchase more land so realism is there rather than having 80 or more small cities in a 20 or 40 mile radius. If you have any questions about Land Surveying, just ask, I'll oblige.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Well, Buggi, I hope you are keeping a good glossary and dictionary. As many here know, I belong to an outfit called Delete Acronyms Now or DAN for short.

[Vahr 343]

Well, I'll say what I know or theorize... (and I've actually designed a transportation system for the (at this point) failed FreeCity project, heavily basing it off of SC4's method with a few extras (dealing with tunnels, bridges, overpasses vs intersections, etc). I even have a savegame entry for transit layout and a basic network RUL based on the INI format. If you wanna look at any of the design docs or the like, ask. I can offer up our database format as well (FCDB, but we can rename it ))

---

When you select a network from the menu, it calls forth a network handler for that network. This handler then creates a 1 or 2 tile cursor depending on the network.

When you drag a stretch of the network, an occupancy check is run.

If the cell is empty, only 5 basic flags are laid out (00 - no connection, 01 - diagonal left, 02 - straight, 03 - diagonal right, 04 - median). The game then checks for a corresponding entry in the Individual Network RULs (INRULs) for that network. If none exist, it throws out the draw. Otherwise, it remembers the IIDs (for later use and eventual placement).

If a network of the same type is in a cell, the game will overlay and override flags according to certain rules (which take into account all flags in the tile). These are checked out against the INRULs, same as above. Run puzzle piece autoplace and Override RUL checks.

If a different network is in the cell, the game will consult the Intersection Solutions RUL file, if one exists, remember it, if not, throw it out. Run puzzle piece autoplace and Override RUL checks.

EDIT: Don't throw it out, run the puzzle piece autoplace check first. If that fails, then throw it out.

If a transit enabled lot is present, then.. well, let's just call it kludge code. Run puzzle piece autoplace and Override RUL checks (autoplace tends to do wonky things and override RULs don't work)

If the network crosses water, the draw is converted to a bridge prompt (drag across the water, etc) until the water is crossed. Do terrain/slope check. Run puzzle piece autoplace and Override RUL checks. Bridge menu opens and preview drawn if terrain is OK. Re-run terrain/slope check with each bridge and when the height slider is changed. Evaluate Bridge RULs if necessary.

The game checks the drawn setup (in a radius of what appears to be 7 tiles along the network) for puzzle piece autoplace (ie crossing two highways prompts for a cloverleaf). If present, run Override RUL checks, prompt placement of the piece(s), otherwise continue.

Next, the Override RUL entries are checked along the network for 7 tiles from any of the currently drawn segment(s). Evaluate those RULs if they are present. Throw out the draw if it matches with a prevent RUL. Draw preview. Finally, run a terrain/slope check, attempt to solve the network to the terrain according to the slope placement parameters. Pass = draw and await mouse release, fail = bad draw, match land bridge parameters = go to land bridge stuff, or match tunnel parameters = make a tunnel.

There's probably a few things out of order or run in parallel, but those are most likely the individual steps that are done for each tile when a network is drawn. Previews also require their own explanation:

For tiles that result in a solution defined in an INRUL or Override RUL, go to the specified IIDs, check it against the Preview Remapping section in the Network INI.

If entry is not in the NetINI: check for a FSH file (and its 4 zooms). Display that if present. If not, draw a brown square; tile is most likely not present or is a model based network without a defined preview.

If entry is present: Remap the preview IID according to the entry. Display that if present. If not, draw a brown square; tile is most likely not present or is a model based network without a defined preview.

For autoplace puzzle pieces, do the above, then superimpose the puzzle piece preview in the defined position and tint it blue.

---

Upon actual placement of the network:

For INRUL and Override RUL solutions, go to the specified IID. Check if there's a proper exemplar. If its present, follow it to the model. See Puzzle Piece section. If not present, find the FSH at that IID. If not present, draw blank tile.

Find a path file at that IID. If present, evaluate it (see Path Files). If not, search every single little file in plugins and see if its there (at least that's what SC4 seems to be doing, it lags. A lot if you have a lot of plugins.)

For puzzle pieces: See Puzzle Piece section.

---

I'll add another post continuing this, I can only milk so much info after marching for most of the day under the sun (marching band)

[Jasoncw 11,953]

I think the main thing for this kind of project would be to create a solid foundation and thorough documentation. Once that was in place there are a lot of people who would contribute to the project like everyone does with SimCity, except faster and better, since they'd have complete information about how the game works, and even the ability to change it.

Geography is very important to cities, not only how they start but also how they develop over time. For example, in a lot of cities industrial was always put next to the water, and today in most American cities, the waterfronts either have things like freeways, mega projects, big parks, and convention centers, because it was easy to acquire large amounts of land in those areas, because it was occupied by big abandoned/demolished factories.

Right now, in order to get realistic cities, players need to intentionally contrive that history or those effects of geography, but it would be great if the geographic aspect of the game grew out of game mechanics.

But another important thing to keep in mind is abstraction. You would probably want to abstract things like resources into categories that are relevant to gameplay. So maybe there would be "common, polluting, low reward" resources and "rare, clean, hard to extract, high reward" resources, so maybe just a handful of categories along those lines.

[Nique 291]

I am a member of this community since 2003, but unfortunately i lost the account as i haven't login for at least a year.. I do not know what it was called. So this is my fresh account, also connected with my facebook.

@Buggi, do you have an copy of your design document for me? I want to look into it.

I am/was the head developer of CityMania that failed. I have huge determination but got stuck.

Now, as i am a proponent of merging many failing projects into one working project i would like to help.

I was attended on this topic in the SC4Devotion forums after i put up the message that i am about to shut the CityMania project down.

Of course i do not want to, but i do not see any perspective for this game at the moment.

After i posted the topic there, i decided to look for 2.5D solutions. I found http://www.indielib.com/

Maybe IndieLib will help to setup a solid foundation for a Simcity 4.5 game .

I know, it is not full 3d, although it supports using 3D models.

I think the reason why people still play Simcity 4 is that the game is unique and the game has high impressive realistic graphics. In 3D, creating realistic graphics as in Simcity 4 is still not possible.

Starting from scratch these days is an (nearly) imposible task. The demands are to high unless you have a company with a staff of 50+ ready to bake it.

My proposal was to keep things simple. 2.5D, a complete copy of SC4 (with the stunning graphics!) and from there on make it better moddable in any form.

I hope you can send me your Design Document. If you do not want to share it to the world, i promise you i keep it for my self.

Thanks in advance.

Nique

  Edited August 6, 2011 by Nique  

[TheHaso2011 152]

This Sounds Wicked, Cant wait for it to Come out (If it does)

[catty-cb 4,413]

...I am/was the head developer of CityMania that failed. I have huge determination but got stuck...

Nique put a lot of time and effort into the CityMania project, if some of it could see life again in another project that would be great, the CityMania boards are here;

https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?board=365.0

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

I am glad to see that this is getting going again. I started recovering my C programming skills which used to be pretty good. If nothing else, it keeps me out of the traffic. I am currently trying to get my mind around the GTK+ 2.0 system, which is a package for making windowed applications using a canned structure (like Visual Basic), and C. It looks promising, but I don't know if it can drive graphics at the necessary high level to get the proper frame rate for a game.

I am also slowly digging into OpenGL, but this seems to be a closed society. Like another machine I was once involved with, each piece of the documentation assumes you have read all the rest. I wouldn't say it is impenetrable, but it is a moving target. Most of the tutorials I've seen use an obsolete function that is no longer supported.

The nice thing about GTK+ 2.0 is that it is open source and has interfaces for most languages you can name. It is also free.

[TheHaso2011 152]

All this Computer Talk is Mind Bogling!

[Linoa06 1,374]

I don't know you, but in the words of GLaDOS, "And when you're dead I will be still aliiiive..STILL ALIVE." o__o

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Only ideas are immortal but old programmers never die. We just get a little buggy.

[Nique 291]

I hope his return is not once

I hope his return is not once