Massive Explosion Rocks Oslo

[astronelson 339]

91 makes this the worst spree killing ever. And yes, I do mean ever. The second-most was 57 in South Korea, 1982.

Him being taken in alive is interesting. Martin Bryant, who did the Port Arthur Massacre, was as well, and is serving 35 life sentences and 1035 years without parole. I would think a similarly impossible to survive sentence would be applied in this case.

Yes, US style security works, but so does locking yourself in a bunker in the middle of nowhere with a lifetime's supply of canned food. It's no way to live, and certainly not a good way to keep yourself safe. I do not want to see Norway head down that path. I rather like it as it is, a generally peaceful and stable nation.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Since this creep is in custody, one assumes that interrogation will not be gentle. Does Norway have the death penalty?

I would be tempted to stake him out at the low tide line.

  Edited July 23, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[Glenni 1,444]

Since this creep is in custody, one assumes that interrogation will not be gentle. Does Norway have the death penalty?

I would be tempted to stake him out at the low tide line.

Our maximum is 23 or 25 years in prison i think, and our prisons are known for being quite humane, but after what this guy did... he might get killed in prison, but just not "officially", if you catch my drift.

[Cobraroll 138]

^It's 21 years. However, we have a seldom-used punisment called "confinement", which can initially be for up to 18 years. After the sentence, it can be extended for another period (i.e. another 18 years). Then it can be extended again after that, ad infinitum.

However, I think he'll be killed in prison. Not by the authorities, but by other inmates, or people on the outside. If he manages to survive and is released, he'll be a dead man the day he sets foot outside the prison. Somebody is bound to find him, and hunt him down. Both his name and his picture are released to the public.

Death toll after the shooting has rised to 85 now. Four or five people are still missing, and they have found "remains" of people in the government quarters.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

1. As much as I enjoy living in house with yard and going to the beach every weekend, I would not mind living in a bunker with a lifetime supply of nonperishable food, my desktop, and an internet connection.

2. Different parts of the US have different ways in which the police department acts and works. One of the problems is that the culture is very anti-police and that many departments don't fire bad cops.

3. If it is proven that he is insane, then in the US system, he could be locked up forever in a hospital for the criminally insane and have tests conducted on him if he decided to plead not-guilty due to insanity.

[Alejandro24 575]

But, after all the opinions from all the world -because the photo of that guy is in the newspapers, TV reports and internet news; then wherever he stay, he never found the peace-, only the Norwegian people has the decition about the punishment of Anders Behring Breivik.

[Glenni 1,444]

From the memorial in the city of Bergen on the coast, roughly 400km away from Oslo

[Cobraroll 138]

The thing with the Norwegian mentality is the openness of it. We feel that the USA lost itself completely to paranoia after 9/11. When armed police confronts you for taking pictures of buildings, you get suspicious looks if you stand still on a busy street and you're likely to get shot if you run in public, something has gone horribly wrong. I've never been to America myself, but I know someone who's going to stay there for a year: So far, it's been two months of paperwork, several visits to the embassy, forms to fill out, papers to sign everywhere, and the USA is supposed to be an allied country. We do not want to fall into that level of paranoia. Look at London and Madrid. Do you see armed police patrolling every street corner? Look at Germany, or even Finland. Do you see metal detectors being installed at every school?

We like to believe that we don't want to harm anyone, and nobody have any reason to harm us. We keep a close eye on certain groups, and interfere if we feel there is a reason to. True, lunatics do exist, but they haven't proven much of a problem. Yet. This lunatic, however, turned out to be a prepared one. I don't think there was any way the police could have caught him earlier. The government quarters could have been better secured, but the attack on the youth camp came entirely out of the blue. Nobody in their right mind would attack children like that, we thought. Ever since scouting came to Norway some 100 years ago, children's camps and gatherings have been commonplace every summer. I hope that this won't change. We will not bend over for fear.

Also, the guy's weapons were completely legal. Look where that led us. He used an illegal weapon as well (my guess, an AG3), but his pistol and shotgun were both registered. There has never been any arms debate in Norway, and I don't think this will lead to one. It's illegal to bear weapons in public, and you have to have been a member of a certified club for six months before being allowed to own a weapon. Automatic weapons and guns with magazines capable of holding more than 5 shots are completely prohibited. The police aren't even keeping weapons in their cars; in case of an emergency they will have to drive to the nearest police station to pick up weapons. Not that it would have made any difference. What can you do when the gunman is shooting on an island?

Sorry if my posts aren't making any sense. Still in shock...

[Glenni 1,444]

Pictures of Oslo the following day:

The HQ of the labour party which got windows shattered from the blast too

  Edited July 23, 2011 by Glenni  

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Here are some words that describe me: pacifist, agnostic, catholic, supportive of military and police, paranoid (in unfamiliar places alone at night, such as Downtown Seattle), disabled, educated, odd. I take photos with my phone without any flack and I only run to catch a bus (I do jog for fun, but not often). I am not any type of threat nor do I look threatening (except maybe to public school kids who are afraid of big people). I do not like fighting but the USA is in a position where it cannot safely nor easily end military action and I find fighting entertaining when it doesn't harm me.

My mind is full of contradictions. I am capable of any thought but I do not act on anything bad except food cravings.

[Cobraroll 138]

His Majesty the King's Guard (HMKG) in the streets, I see...

Too bad they don't have ammo, spare magazines, or even battle vests that suit their weapons (those were used with the AG3). That's our military all right. I think they're just there to give the impression of control over the situation. HMKG has deep traditions.

Plus, guarding Oslo is part of their service. They don't require overtime pay, and it appears that their only strategic function is stopping curious bypassers, not something you'd waste police resources.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

CBC is now reporting 92 murders and some people missing. Latest coverage at http://www.cbc.ca/news/

They have at least one reporter on the ground in Oslo.

I cannot find enough words to express my condolences to the Norwegian people.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

I would no longer be surprised by triple digit fatalities.

[hym 358]

Gunman Open Fire at Norway Youth Camp, Deaths Reported

They think it is related to the bombing.

What the heck here? This stuff shouldn't be happening at all, much less in Norway. Why there?

To play devil's advocate here: Why shouldn't it happen there? Terrorism is most effective when it strikes where and when no one expects it and leaves people with lingering fear over performing common daily tasks.

[Timmystwin 201]

Is the 92 adding on the 7 from th bombing?

And on the subject of spare magazines, isnt norway a massive army producer?

But thats trivial. I actually feel really sad for the norwegian people, moreso than normal. For some reason this has affected me more than usual. Perhaps because im a youth that supports labour. Or perhaps because this is such an unusual act of barbarity. Either way, its been a sad weekend.

[Meg 368]

The thing with the Norwegian mentality is the openness of it. We feel that the USA lost itself completely to paranoia after 9/11.

I agree with you but this is more like the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing than it is like 9/11. There is a difference between a homegrown nut job going crazy and a gang of organized nut jobs declaring you are their target.

When armed police confronts you for taking pictures of buildings, you get suspicious looks if you stand still on a busy street and you're likely to get shot if you run in public, something has gone horribly wrong.

The last time an armed policeman asked me to delete a picture from my camera, he was very nice about it. and I've never seen anyone in public get shot. I take your point but I think it is a bit exaggerated.

We like to believe that we don't want to harm anyone, and nobody have any reason to harm us. We keep a close eye on certain groups, and interfere if we feel there is a reason to. True, lunatics do exist, but they haven't proven much of a problem. Yet. This lunatic, however, turned out to be a prepared one. I don't think there was any way the police could have caught him earlier.

Probably not. This guy does seem to be a lunatic political extremist. I am still somewhat in shock that this occurred in Norway.

The government quarters could have been better secured, but the attack on the youth camp came entirely out of the blue. Nobody in their right mind would attack children like that, we thought. Ever since scouting came to Norway some 100 years ago, children's camps and gatherings have been commonplace every summer. I hope that this won't change. We will not bend over for fear.

Neither did the US after Oklahoma City in 1995.

Also, the guy's weapons were completely legal. Look where that led us. He used an illegal weapon as well (my guess, an AG3), but his pistol and shotgun were both registered. There has never been any arms debate in Norway, and I don't think this will lead to one. Not that it would have made any difference. What can you do when the gunman is shooting on an island?

Short of the campers ganging up on him, there wasn't much they could do given the circumstances. It does surprise me that he was on that island for two hours before anyone stopped him.

Sorry if my posts aren't making any sense. Still in shock...

Many of us outside of the country are shocked it happened in Norway. I can only imagine how people inside the country feel.

We knew we had nut jobs like Timothy McVeigh; we just didn't expect him to go as far as he did in Oklahoma City. I'm finding that I really wanted to believe that there were places in the world, like Norway, that did not have such people. But it makes sense that they can turn up anywhere.

[hym 358]

The thing with the Norwegian mentality is the openness of it. We feel that the USA lost itself completely to paranoia after 9/11. When armed police confronts you for taking pictures of buildings, you get suspicious looks if you stand still on a busy street and you're likely to get shot if you run in public, something has gone horribly wrong.

This is somewhat overblown. There are places in the US where some of this might be true, and there are places where well over 75% of the population routinely carries a gun or a knife on their person and nothing happens, nor does anyone freak out over it.

I've never been to America myself, but I know someone who's going to stay there for a year: So far, it's been two months of paperwork, several visits to the embassy, forms to fill out, papers to sign everywhere, and the USA is supposed to be an allied country.

It's always been a hassle to enter the US for any extended period of time. This isn't anything new. Your amount of paperwork make vary depending on the country you're coming from, but you're going to have a lot of paperwork to get through regardless of where you come from. (And quite frankly, two months of paperwork to move to another country for a year isn't that bad; I've been filling out paperwork for almost a month just to get a 4 month co-op job with an oil refiner.)

Do you see armed police patrolling every street corner? Look at Germany, or even Finland.

That isn't post-9/11 paranoia. That was normal in the US for decades. Most police departments in the US favor some level of visible presence as a reminder that they are on patrol, and I don't think there is a single police department in the US that doesn't issue a gun as a standard part of the uniform. It's simply a matter of cultural convention. Europeans don't tend to like the idea of armed police, while in the US, people want the police armed so they are prepared in case something happens and deadly force is needed.

[Cobraroll 138]

^^^^I think it's more a question of "Why would anyone attack Norway?"

Okay, we might have bombed a country or two, and a couple of our newspaper published some drawings that upset a bunch of people. Some of us expected an attack. If anything, we were expecting the entire shebang with "Allahu akhbar" and the like. That was what the police and defence forces had prepared for.

Instead, a crazy right-wing loner goes amok with fertilizer and handguns. At a youth camp. Twice as many dead as the Virginia Tech and Columbine massacres put together. A massacre larger than anything we saw on Norwegian soil during the war. From "one of our own". Quotation marks because he just snagged Vidkun Quisling's title as "most hated man in Norwegian history". Whatever the documents say, he's not a Norwegian any more.

I think this just illustrates a variant of Murphy's Law in practise: "There are nutjobs everywhere". Even in what we ourselves regard as the most functional, united and open society on the planet. Germany and Finland, also well-working countries with a culture similiar to ours, have had school shootings. Unluckily for us, "our" maniac was a little older and more "creative" in his morbid ways.

Could armed guards, blockades and Internet monitoring have stopped this particular incident? Perhaps. Would we like to live in a society like that? Not at all. We must bury our dead with dignity, and go back to our regular lifestyle. Today is a day of sorrow, but life must go on like normal. Otherwise, we've let him win.

We will never forget.

  Edited July 23, 2011 by Cobraroll  

[Meg 368]

To play devil's advocate here: Why shouldn't it happen there? Terrorism is most effective when it strikes where and when no one expects it and leaves people with lingering fear over performing common daily tasks.

Because the image of Norway is - - - how did someone say it? - - -a peaceful pacifist Hippie country. and I'm not saying that in a bad way.

Yes, terrorism is most effective when it is least expected. I would say the point was to prove that no one is safe anywhere at anytime. But this guy doesn't seem to be part of a terror cell. He seems to be your garden variety political extremist nut job. Norway isn't supposed to have those.

okay . . . so I have an overly idealized image of Norway. All of the Scandinavian countries, actually. They just seem like civilized places. (Not that I've ever been there )

Part of it is this whole thing goes against the climate theory of political unrest. The general premise: the hotter the weather, the crankier people will be. and the crankier people are, the more political unrest they generate.

Not a very solid theory, I'll grant you. But name the last time something like this happened near the Arctic circle or the Antarctic circle. Then look at all of the political unrest near the equator. and yeah, I know, correlation doesn't imply causation.

And, as Cobraroll says: There are nutjobs everywhere.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Insanity is not less common in more civilized countries. Civilized countries can help people sort out their issues or at least protect everyone from insane people (including protecting them from themselves). There is nothing wrong with being a peaceful, pacifist, etc country when it comes to international problems though lack of any way to defend yourself usually means that a predator will eat you for dinner if you cannot outrun him. Countries can't just run away, nor can children on an island. This is a tragedy but let it be a lesson, a learning experience. If one does not learn from tragedy, then the tragedy has a long lasting negative impact while a good lesson can turn a tragedy into a triumph and improve those involved.

[hym 358]

To play devil's advocate here: Why shouldn't it happen there? Terrorism is most effective when it strikes where and when no one expects it and leaves people with lingering fear over performing common daily tasks.

Because the image of Norway is - - - how did someone say it? - - -a peaceful pacifist Hippie country. and I'm not saying that in a bad way.

Which makes it a perfect target. Who is a more desirable target: the ground that has a cynical worldview and expects this sort of thing to happen, or the group who thinks everything is sunshine and rainbows?

Yes, terrorism is most effective when it is least expected. I would say the point was to prove that no one is safe anywhere at anytime. But this guy doesn't seem to be part of a terror cell. He seems to be your garden variety political extremist nut job. Norway isn't supposed to have those.

It merely proves what I have said in the past. It is a misconception that a free society is a safe society.

[Meg 368]

Because the image of Norway is - - - how did someone say it? - - -a peaceful pacifist Hippie country. and I'm not saying that in a bad way.

Which makes it a perfect target. Who is a more desirable target: the ground that has a cynical worldview and expects this sort of thing to happen, or the group who thinks everything is sunshine and rainbows?

A more desirable target for whom? We are talking about a home grown nut job, not someone who sat back and looked at a globe to decide where to go bomb something.

It merely proves what I have said in the past. It is a misconception that a free society is a safe society.

I didn't know that was a popular misconception. It is a tradeoff. Societies trade freedom for security all the time.

[hym 358]

A more desirable target for whom? We are talking about a home grown nut job, not someone who sat back and looked at a globe to decide where to go bomb something.

My point is that those who think that XYZ would never happen where they live should be expecting it to happen at some point or another. Sooner later, someone is going to come along and decide that they should do XYZ because no one would expect it, or it would get whatever message across.

I didn't know that was a popular misconception. It is a tradeoff. Societies trade freedom for security all the time.

Sure it is. You hear it every time someone says "How could this happen here?"

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Anything can happen anywhere but that still does not change the fact that this guy is EVIL. I am disgusted he identifies himself as a Christian.

[Timmystwin 201]

Religions tend to teach peace. Anyone that commits terrorism either for a religion, or says that they are religous after doing so, isnt in my opinion.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Wow! This has to be the most active thread in a long time.

It is becoming clear that this guy was a better planned Timothy McVeigh. He got his bomb materials legally. He owns a farm and just ordered a standard quantity of fertilizer from his farm supply. Most farms have diesel equipment, so he also probably had a tank of diesel. It is not hard to rig a detonator. Could have been triggered by a cell phone.

The one unanswered question is where did he get his assault rifle? I suppose they have that out of him by now.

It was reported that some jihad group of infidels attempted to claim credit. Hopefully, these will be tracked down, and made to share in the blame, even if they had nothing to do with it. Claim the game, be in the game. Stupidity should always get its Darwin award.

It is interesting that Cobraroll compared this guy with Vidkun Quisling. He was the great traitor during the second world war who handed Norway to the Nazis, for those who don't know. Quisling has entered the English language as a synonym for one who commits high treason. I don't think this guy will ever get that kind of treatment in world opinion. Remember his acts, but otherwise let his name be flushed down the nearest vik on the next tide. And speaking of viks, I still think he should be staked out on the beach at the low tide mark.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

He registered the rifle and pistol. He did not use automatic or semi-automatic weapons and the government could have tracked him if they felt he was a threat.

EDIT: Due to lax laws, oversight or something, this cold-blooded, soulless mass-murderer was able to legally acquire everything he used to commit such a felonious atrocity.

  Edited July 24, 2011 by OcramSeattle  

[RipRap 4,400]

This article by the CBC shows that he used a special kind of ammo to inflict more damage to the body. Clearly this man is a home grown nut job.

I just came back from church and the priest described 'He expresses his faith to God, but he did it in a wrong way. He should have used his wisdom rather than his weapons.'

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

This article by the CBC shows that he used a special kind of ammo to inflict more damage to the body. Clearly this man is a home grown nut job.

I just came back from church and the priest described 'He expresses his faith to God, but he did it in a wrong way. He should have used his wisdom rather than his weapons.'

Interesting way to put it. Is this a Catholic priest? Priests try to turn even events such as this into lessons. In this case on forgiveness and wisdom.

BTW, Ocram my friend, earlier posts confirmed this guy got an assault rifle from somewhere.

[Glenni 1,444]

He registered the rifle and pistol. He did not use automatic or semi-automatic weapons and the government could have tracked him if they felt he was a threat.

EDIT: Due to lax laws, oversight or something, this cold-blooded, soulless mass-murderer was able to legally acquire everything he used to commit such a felonious atrocity.

Where the hell are you getting this from? It's an established fact he used an illegal automatic rifle, and even 4 grenades in addition to his legally registered weapons. CHECK YOUR FACTS.

In an update:

one more person is now dead from the injuries at the hospital. So that's 93 people.

One of the killed was an off duty policeofficer, working as a peacekeeper/guard at the camp. He was unarmed, as the worst expected was what, drunk fights maybe?

over 90 people are injured, and 30 of them gravely or critically wounded. many of them are not ecpected to live, and there are beliefs of bodies still being left in the buildings after the blast.

Total deathtoll might exceed 100 people.

  Edited July 24, 2011 by Glenni