Massive Explosion Rocks Oslo

[Cobraroll 138]

Looks like his reaction to the news from the psychologists was quite strong. It seems like he has mentally prepared for everything so far, even a life in prison, but didn't expect to be declared insane and put in an asylum. And, to be honest, I think Norway's mental institutions are a worse place to be than our prisons. Besides, there aren't as many people in the asylums who would gladly sacrifice ten years of freedom to bash his head in against a concrete wall.

And I don't think he'll ever get out. Ever. There's a prize on his head in the criminal circles. The PST know his entire network inside out. His picture has been released to the newspapers. Even if he gets the chance to escape, he won't grab it. It would be equal to suicide. The government knows this, of course (doesn't take a genius to predict that his life would end rather brutally outside the walls), so the officials will keep an eye on him for years to come. Allowing him to escape would be the same as assisting his suicide. Besides, he's still considered dangerous, so security would take a step up to keep him locked in. I think he'll get to face the worst terror of the welfare state: Being denied the right to die. He might wish to, preferrably taking some people with him and all that "heroic" yadda yadda, or to be killed in prison (so his "supporters" have an excuse to blame the government for his death), but rotting away, spending a lifetime walking in white corridors? Medications and therapy, day in and out for decades? Beind denied a social life, and privacy, for his own security? And there would be no way to stop it. No politician or doctor would ever be willing to let him out.

I think we've found the best way to deal with such scum. Too bad he'll share this fate with a lot of people who don't deserve it.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Death is cheap. I think this "rehabilitation" and "medical care" is the best punishment. Humane but horribly boring. It would be cheaper to allow him to die earlier but that would be cheating.

[Alejandro24 575]

A psychopath can simulate schizophrenia.

[chicah 20]

A psychopath can simulate schizophrenia.

I think they considered that in their report. I agree with you, by all means, I just want to trust the professionals on this since they know what they're talking about.

It's very rare to be psychotic and psychopathic at once, as I've understood, as in, psychopaths rarely become psychotic. Considering that he's spent years online spouting his crap and years writing his manifesto, and years planning this, he must either 1) be as delusional as he seems now, which I suppose makes him psychotic, or 2) have acted deliberately crazy for more than NINE YEARS so no one would expect he wasn't when he made trial.

He's been kind of manic while being interviewed and in court.

He's a narcissist, but I'm not sure he's a psychopath.

[Alejandro24 575]

The problem is the society and authorities can't identify a dangerous person. It is too hard to see it, and when you see it in the act, con las manos en la masa, its too incredible that its hard to understand. He could be your neighbor, a common worker, a friend, and never imaginated it, that he/she is a bad person. Including that the definition of bad is really too subjective.

I've readed his manifesto, and it have a good redaction, with references, very well structured. But many parts are too paranoid, and others are usefull information (like the firsts pages). Hope so to mention this is not a tabu (a siderurgy in Zapopan, Mexico, were investigated by the police because a reference in the manifesto about iron works for defence in a mentioned war in the book).

He spent years, imagine the patience to planning it nine years, and the money, just incredible. He had too clear what he wanted. And at the end could be that: narcissism.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

He could be paranoid and intelligent.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I am surprised that the review period is so short, but then again, for our criminally insane a Lieutenant Governor's warrant is reviewed biennially as well. Our monarchy puts these people into the state of being wards of the Crown.

[chicah 20]

The report is 230 pages, so thorough work. I am no longer in doubt he is psychotic, for many resons, these are some of them:

- He alternates between referring to himself as "I" and "we"

- He feels he has the power and the right to judge who shall live and who shall die

- He believes the society is at war and he has believed for many years that the police and the govt. are out to kill him

- He believed he was under constant surveillance and would go looking for cameraes etc. installed in his home

- He was hysterically afraid of getting sick and wore a surgical mask while walking around in his house

- He believes he is the ideological leader of an organization called Knights Templar Europe, and that they will win the war against the muslims and he will be one of the people shipping the muslims off to Africa

- He will become regent

- His actions will cause a chemical third world war

- His delusions controls his every action and impulse, amongst other things he gave the psychiatrist seven questions before he let them interview him, to figure out where they stood when it came to socialism, immigration etc., his whole world revolves around the civil war he believes is going on

This guy IS crazy.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^ No doubt. He can't have any friends/acquaintances or he would have been noticed earlier. Too bad he got as far as he did.

[chicah 20]

Oh, just to keep people updated: The trial starts in a few days/a week (can't remember the exact date). He has been reviewed by a new board of psychiatrists, their report is not finished yet.

The media has been allowed to film him and take pictures of him, but not to let him use them as a microphone for his crap. The rules have laxed, though, so he has amongst other things gotten a long, open letter to the government published in Norway's largest newspaper, VG.

We have struggled in the aftermath with supporters of Breivik and his thoughts sending threats and hate mail to the survivors of the massacre or to politicians speaking up against strict immigration laws.

Breivik has agreed to give one interview before the case starts in court, the Norwegian press are still kind of trying to decide what to do with it (the interview may be worthless since he will refuse to co-operate with the journalist and just keep saying the same phrases).

A lot of the victims have f. ex. dropped out of school and/or work, a lot are displaying symptoms of PTSD. Some praise the government for the mental and physical help they have been given, others say it is not good enough.

There have been several survivors and some dead victims' families claiming they were promised a helicopter while on the phone with police, a helicopter that never came (apart from a press helicopter from NRK).

The police have issued an evaluatory report concluding they were not prepared enough, and that they could have handled the situation better. But everyone did what they had to do that hectic day.

I just want to link to this, the most sad, but beautiful piece I've read about the aftermath. Unfortunately it is all in Norwegian, using Google Translate would at least allow you to understand it even if you wouldn't catch how beautifully it was written.

http://www.dagbladet.no/2012/03/01/magasinet/hovedsaken/tomrommene/utoya/22_juli/20481172/ The title means "The Silence Afterwards".

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court finds him sane

Sentenced to 21 years (indefinite and extendible) much as we handle "dangerous offenders" in Canada. Apparently this is the maximum under Norwegian law.

[LexusInfernus 908]

To bad, they should have declared him insane. Invalidates all the things he has done, all the things he has said and everything he stands for as the results of a mentally unstable madman. Worst insult they could probably make, and the biggest F- you to every right wing extremist that thinks like him. Now he has become a martyr for his cause.

  Edited August 24, 2012 by LexusInfernus  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

To bad, they should have declared him insane. Invalidates all the things he has done, all the things he has said and everything he stands for as the results of a mentally unstable madman. Worst insult they could probably make, and the biggest F- you to every right wing extremist that thinks like him. Now he has become a martyr for his cause.

Not the way I, nor I suspect most Norwegians, see it. By making him a simple criminal and stashing him for good, they have set an example of what happens to such fools when they are finally brought to justice. He will be in full segregation until such time as it is determined it is safe to allow him to talk to anybody.

The courts have killed him most effectively as they could under the law.

I've always thought of the Norwegians as a gentle, civilized people and this proves it. However, like Canadians, don't back them into a corner.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Sure technically, this is justice I agree. But by doing this, they only condemn his actions, not that vile, evil political ideology that he believes in. Essentially the courts have said that what he believes in is his problem, its not necessarily bad, and that they just have an issue with the fact that he killed a lot of people. If they had declared him insane, it would have been a message towards every right wing extremist in Europe: that their believes are insane, idiotic and delusional and that the people who believe in it are also insane and should get treatment. Breivik realized this part all to well, why else do you think he said that it he would consider it a much worse punishment if he was declared insane by the court?

Now the court has given him pretty much what he wanted, they validated his political ideology as 'sane', he gets to send out letters and write books further spreading his message of hate and become a martyr for right wing extremists.

The justice system in liberal democracies while admirable, is just not designed for people like Breivik. Its build for criminals who commit crime for personal gains or actual insanity. It has no idea how to effectively deal with people who commit terrible crimes in order to advance some sort of hateful political agenda. These people attack the liberal democracy itself, and when dealing with them, giving them 'justice', while admirable, does not actually solve the problem.

[Nesral Sredna 62]

I'm quite happy for the verdict. And I believe it is right. Everyone who has seen him talking or has read it knows he simply isn't put quite right. But he knew quite well what he was doing to those poor people. Being declared sane for these terrible actions is putting him in charge for what he did, instead of saying insanity made him do it. In the future there now can be an increased focus on meeting political extremism with arguments, instead of excusing such extremism as insanity or a bad childhood.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Yes, it exposes extremism to lettres de cachet, however legal. Sinking Brevik that way is essentially putting him in a well-supplied oubliette. If they keep him isolated and forbid him to communicate, they have killed him as much as if they shot him. With any luck, he really will go mad.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

This is one reason why we have the death penalty in the USA.

Though his ideology is atrocious, he was in full capacity of his actions. Declaring him insane was the biggest punishment they could give him in that pacifist country but they just gave him 21 years.

I bet he gets a comfortable protected cell where sociopaths cannot get him.

--Ocram

  Edited August 28, 2012 by OcramSeattle  

[Cobraroll 138]

Declaring him insane was the biggest punishment they could give him in that pacifist country but they just gave him 21 years.

I bet he gets a comfortable protected cell where sociopaths cannot get him.

Strong objection, thank you.

As said above, by declaring him sane he was made responsible for his actions. Instead of shoving the problems away by declaring him a "madman", or giving him an "excuse" for the actions ("he was crazy, that's why he did it") the court now lets him take the full consequences of what he did.

This also uproots an underlying problem, which is not to be swept under a rug somewhere: Why would a sane person go so far as to kill 77 people? We need to upturn some stones, go a few rounds in the system and see if something is so fundamentally wrong in society that this might happen again. The terrorist himself stated that one of the reasons why he did it was because he felt nobody listened to what he had to say about immigrants and "the war on muslims" and such things. Aakl made a good point on this. We can't just declare all extremists as insane, and settle it with that. We need to meet them with arguments, ackowledge their existence and point out why they're wrong, instead of letting them "boil over" in the shadows of society until they blow with frustration. We need to take the debate, uncomfortable as it might be.

Concerning what now happens to Breivik, it's quite well documented. Because of the unusual circumstances, he isn't allowed to meet other inmates. He gets a cell to sleep in, one to work in, and one for exercise. It might seem like a luxury, but after all one of the primary tasks of a prison in a civilized country is the physical and mental well-being of the inmates. It would be both illegal and inhumane to intentionally try to drive him insane by locking him away in one room forever*.

One of the central themes of this court case has been "the law is the same for everybody"; which is a primary principle of a civilized state. No matter what actrocities a person commits, he has to be judged by the laws that were in effect when the actions were commited. Breivik is a prisoner like everybody else with the same sentence, and he has to be treated as one. When a person is deemed to be unsuited for meeting other inmates, special measures have to be taken. Such is the law, hard as it might be to live by.

Had Breivik been treated any differently, it would mean acknowledging him as a special case, bending the laws to accomodate him. Instead, he is shuffled through the system, given the same treatment as any other criminal, and locked away for as long as it can be legally defended. No special rights or priviliegies are given or denied him, he's a subject of the law like everybody else. Hopefully, in a few years he'll vanish from the attention of society. Then he can rot away behind the walls. Those three rooms, the corridor between them and a small outdoors space will be the box he'll be placed in, the place he'll never be allowed to leave alive. No friends. The guards are swapped every few months so he can't get connected to them. No set schedule to fall into. A perfectly legal and ethically defendable hell on earth for the subject. Nobody can point to his treatment and say "That's illegal" or "That's unfair". It's in perfect accordance with the law. The ideal punishment for anybody who think they're special, or a martyr for something.

*Yes, forever. The sentence he got is 21 years in name only. In reality, it's a sentence of 21 years at a minimum. He can plea for release every six months after the first ten years, but the court can turn it down indefinitely, in theory locking him away until the day he dies. Considering the circumstances, this is likely to happen. Not to mention the mob that would hunt him down and tear him apart the day he sets foot outside the prison.

[Wiecher 192]

To bad, they should have declared him insane. Invalidates all the things he has done, all the things he has said and everything he stands for as the results of a mentally unstable madman. Worst insult they could probably make, and the biggest F- you to every right wing extremist that thinks like him. Now he has become a martyr for his cause.

If he would have been declared insane, he would not have gotten prison, but Involuntary Commitment, which in Western European countries is just a luxurious hotel, you are only not allowed to go out. And the time people are locked in such a place is less than a normal prison sentence.

[LexusInfernus 908]

If he would have been declared insane, he would not have gotten prison, but Involuntary Commitment, which in Western European countries is just a luxurious hotel, you are only not allowed to go out. And the time people are locked in such a place is less than a normal prison sentence.

And I suppose you havent seen the pictures of his normal prison cell. Norwegian cells are quite luxurious and Norway is known for its extremely humane prison conditions. Also, even if they did declare him insane, he would never be released into the public again, ever. His shrinks would keep extending his involuntary commitment every time he comes up for review. Same as now, where they will keep him incarcerated after the 21 years are over.

  Edited August 25, 2012 by LexusInfernus  

[Ocram's Razr 964]

OK, then. He got three comfortable protected cells! That changes things even more.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

OK, then. He got three comfortable protected cells! That changes things even more.

Incarceration is incarceration. No communications is the thing that will drive him around the bend. He isn't able to preach.

[LexusInfernus 908]

OK, then. He got three comfortable protected cells! That changes things even more.

Incarceration is incarceration. No communications is the thing that will drive him around the bend. He isn't able to preach.

Actually, he is still allowed to write his books and write letters to his fans, as long as he takes care of what he writes. According to Wikipedia they can confiscate his letters "if the package contains information on planning or execution of punishable offense, evasion of the execution or acts which will disturb peace, order and security".

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

OK, then. He got three comfortable protected cells! That changes things even more.

Incarceration is incarceration. No communications is the thing that will drive him around the bend. He isn't able to preach.

Actually, he is still allowed to write his books and write letters to his fans, as long as he takes care of what he writes. According to Wikipedia they can confiscate his letters "if the package contains information on planning or execution of punishable offense, evasion of the execution or acts which will disturb peace, order and security".

Better and better. Heavy censorship is what he needed in the first place besides a good, swift kick in a very sensitive place.

[krbe 193]

And I suppose you havent seen the pictures of his normal prison cell. Norwegian cells are quite luxurious and Norway is known for its extremely humane prison conditions. Also, even if they did declare him insane, he would never be released into the public again, ever. His shrinks would keep extending his involuntary commitment every time he comes up for review. Same as now, where they will keep him incarcerated after the 21 years are over.

You must mean the cells he has as a (nominally) free man? Constiutional limits you know, until the verdict is enforcable. Detention is something else than punishment.

Re the sanity argument; the hospital treating prisoners sentenced to treatment had already deemed him not insane; had he been sentenced to treatment and they'd reached the same verdict, a shrink couldn't just extend his time (nor keep him there). It's uncivilised to sentence healthy indivduals to psychiatric treatment, that's a communist tactic.

[Easy Bakes 253]

So if he is sane why is he not being brought to trial?

surely they can convict him for multiple offense's? 100 counts of 1st degree Murder, setting off a bomb,possession of the weapons,and acts of terrorism come to mind.

[LexusInfernus 908]

You must mean the cells he has as a (nominally) free man? Constiutional limits you know, until the verdict is enforcable. Detention is something else than punishment.

Re the sanity argument; the hospital treating prisoners sentenced to treatment had already deemed him not insane; had he been sentenced to treatment and they'd reached the same verdict, a shrink couldn't just extend his time (nor keep him there). It's uncivilised to sentence healthy indivduals to psychiatric treatment, that's a communist tactic.

Normally Id say youre right if Breivik was just a simple guy that murdered his wife or something. But I find his crime, as well as the motivations of his crime so troubling that Id happily suspend his constitutional rights just to get him the worst kind of sentence that is technically possible in Norway. Constitutional rights are for people who still believe in that constitution and Breivik pretty much went to war against it.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

So if he is sane why is he not being brought to trial?

surely they can convict him for multiple offense's? 100 counts of 1st degree Murder, setting off a bomb,possession of the weapons,and acts of terrorism come to mind.

Where have you been? He has had a trial, pleaded guilty, and was sentenced.

Norway is not the United States. They don't pile on consecutive sentences. In the U.S. if he avoided the death penalty (by pleading guilty) the sentence would have been something like 20 years on each count to be served consecutively or something in excess of 150 years.

In Canada his sentence would have been 14 years but as a dangerous offender he would be detained on a Lieutenant Governor's Warrant indefinitely.

The sentencing rules in the U.S. need a lot of work.

[krbe 193]

Constitutional rights are for people who still believe in that constitution and Breivik pretty much went to war against it.

Constitutions are not written for citizens, they are written for the states they serve. Constitutional "rights" are not about affording citizens and residents anything, they are there to limit the state and what it can do. Constiutions as we know them in the West are all about wrestling unlimited power out of the hands of the unaccountable.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Constitutional rights are for people who still believe in that constitution and Breivik pretty much went to war against it.

Constitutions are not written for citizens, they are written for the states they serve. Constitutional "rights" are not about affording citizens and residents anything, they are there to limit the state and what it can do. Constiutions as we know them in the West are all about wrestling unlimited power out of the hands of the unaccountable.

Eh no, technically a constitution helps define the relation between state and citizen as well as the relations of the powers within the state (between parliament and the executive body, or its variations within different forms of state). It gives citizens certain rights and also certain duties, and it codifies for a part what a state can and cant do. In any case, constitutions usually do give rights to citizens. For example, the right to free speech is usually written down in the constitution of a country (there are exceptions, I know).