Nadav_82's BATs

[nadav_82 26]

Ok, here's my first work. Made with Gmax. It's a 5x5 Landmark and it's the Synagogue of my city, Trieste. Tell me if you like it, your opinions and if you have any suggestions. Btw, it has no nightlights (except from the light posts of course) because I don't exactly know how to do that and, even if I did, I can't test it on my own simcity. I'm posting 4 pictures of my lot and 1 picture of the real building. The original building has slightly differen colors but that's not important. The quality of the pictures has been a bit lowered in order to make them all fit the post.

[Francis90b 748]

Congratulazioni per il tuo primo tentativo!

Non si puo certo dire che tu abbia scelto un edificio facile da modellare.

Il tuo modello dimostra che hai afferrato i fondamentali, e questa è una buona cosa.

Tuttavia, ti suggerirei di ricontrollare le proporzioni e i dettagli del tuo modello.Credo che ci sia molto lavoro da fare sotto questo aspetto.

Per prima cosa dovresti assicurarti che le proporzioni del tuo modello corrispondano a quelle dell' edificio esistente.Dopo aver fatto questo, potrai perfezionare il tutto arricchendo il modello con quei dettagli e quelle decorazioni di cui la sinagoga è così ricca...bisogna andare per gradi.

Per ultima cosa bisogna pensare al "texturing", ma per il momento non è ancora il caso di pensarci.

Ricorda che un buon modello richiede molto tempo, molta attenzione e molta capacità di osservazione.

La fretta e la faciloneria sono tuoi nemici, pazienza, cura e precisione i tuoi migliori alleati.

Spero che tu continui a lavorare a questo modello, e ti auguro buona fortuna!

-Francesco

(Congratulations for your first try!

Surely the building you picked isn't an easy one...

From your model it's clear that you got the basics, that's a good thing.

On the other hand, i'd suggest you to check back the proportions and the details of your model.Maybe there's still a lot of work to do there.

As a first thing to do, you should make sure that the proportions of your model matches with the ones of the existing building.After that, you might move on adding the details and the ornaments that are so abundant inthe existing sinagogue...you just need to go step-after-step.

Lastly you can think about texturing, but now it's not the time to think about that.

Remember, a good model requires a lot of time, a lot of care and good observation skills,Impatience and superficiality are your enemies, patience, carefulness and precision your best allies

I hope you will continue working on this model, and i wish you good luck!

[BIWDC 2,296]

Looks Like a well done model so far,Could use more details & better texturing so Keep working on it.

The lot looks good.

  Edited March 26, 2011 by BIWDC  

[nadav_82 26]

[Full quote removed - please use the quote feature only if you want to clarify what exactly you are referring to. For example, if there is one sentence in a long reply that you want to refer to, quote that sentence and write your answer so everybody can follow the discussion. The quote function is also useful when you reply to an older post and NOT to the last post above.

However, if you simply reply to the last post and/or to an entire post, you don't need to quote. Even if you answer several people at once, you can write "@Person A: ...", "@Person B: ..." so everybody knows whom you are addressing.

Full quotes make a post excessively long, so the entire thread becomes difficult to read. Hence they should be avoided unless they are really necessary.

~ T Wrecks, Moderator]

Caro Francesco, intanto grazie per il commento. Sulle proporzioni hai ragione, l'edificio reale è più piccolo (il cubo centrale è di 27x27, il che in simcity credo corrisponda a circa 2,5x2,5, quindi in totale un 3x3 o 4x4 massimo). Stavo pensando che, se seguissi le proporzioni reali, i dettagli sarebbero a malapena visibili e che quindi abbia poco senso soffermarsi su di essi. Cosa ne pensi? Comunque ho già aggiunto qualche dettaglio in più, sul tetto ad esempio, e inoltre ho fatto in modo che le textures su ogni lato siano delle stesse proporzioni.

Cosa ne pensi inoltre della mancanza di luci notturne? La texture che ho usato per il vetro retrostante il rosone sembra quasi illuminata anche al buio così com'è... purtroppo non so esattamente come rendere luminose le finestre (suppongo si vada su "material color", poi su "maps" e li si selezioni la stessa texture usata di giorno in self-illuminating giusto?) e soprattutto non posso testarle sul mio simcity perchè non è aggiornato (e non lo posso aggiornare).

Fammi sapere! Ciao!

Dear Francesco, tnx for your comment. About proportions you're right, the real building is smaller (the central cube is 27m x 27m). Maybe if I follow the real proportions details wouldn't be visible so maybe it hasn't got much sense to work on them too much. What do you think? Anyway I've already added some more details, on the roof for example, and I've managed to make the textures have the same proportions on each wall. What do you think about the lack of night lights? The texture I've used for the rose window seems almost illuminated at night the way it is... unfortunately I don't exactly know how to illuminate windows (I guess it's through "material color", "maps" and "self-illuminating right?) and, most of all, I can't test night lights on my simcity.

Let me know! Bye!

  Edited March 28, 2011 by T Wrecks  

[Francis90b 748]

Dunque...un quadrato del gioco corrisponde a 16x16 metri.Per questo motivo, il quadrato centrale della sinagoga misura quasi due quadrati per due.

Per "proporzioni" intendevo il rapporto fra gli elementi della facciata, in sè e nel contesto.Una finestra la cui altezza sia, mettiamo, 1,75 volte la larghezza apparirà diversa da una in cui l' altezza è di 2 volte la larghezza.E' inoltre importante vedere il gioco di proporzioni fra le parti (per esempio, la distanza fra le finestre...).Molti edifici hanno un elaborato sistema di proporzioni, e credo che questo sia particolarmente vero per un edificio così importante quale la sinagoga.

Le proporzioni sono importanti anche perchè variandole cambia l' effetto complessivo.Sono come le parole all' interno di una frase:cambiandole anche di poco il significato cambia completamente.

E' quindi importante mantenersi il più possibile fedeli alla realtà, e cercare in quale modo ogni "pezzo" si rapporta all' insieme.Cercare le proporzioni può essere noioso e richiedere tempo, ma è molto remunerativo nel momento in cui vedi il tuo modello prendere forma...

Per il momento ti consiglierei di lavorare su questo.

Per quanto concerne i dettagli, dipende...potrebbe essere una buona idea modellarne il più possibile, badando però che siano visibili nel modello...in ogni caso, scartare aprioristicamente un dettaglio perchè "credo che verrà troppo piccolo" non è una buona idea.

Provaci comunque.Poi, se il dettaglio è importante per l'edificio e non è ben visibile, puoi "esagerarne" le dimensioni.

Potresti trovare interessante il thread di un collega (amthaak) che ha modellato superbamente un hotel di hong kong, e ha cercato di includere ogni dettaglio, e far sì che questo fosse visibile e avesse un peso.

Per quanto riguarda l' illuminazione notturna quanto affermi è sostanzialmente corretto... non ho quasi nessuna esperienza in materia, quindi non posso essere d' aiuto, prova a dare un occhiata all' omnibus e poi chiedi.

Un ultima nota:cerca di postare anche la traduzione in inglese di quello che scrivi in italiano .

Well...a sc4tile is 16x16 mtrs wide.Therefore, the central square of the sinagogue will be almost 2x2 tiles wide.

When i wrote about "proportions", i meant the relation between the building elements in themselves and within the whole context.

A window whose height is, let's say, 1,75 times the lenght will look different than a window whose height is twice the lenght.Also, it's important to consider the "game" between the parts (e.g the distance between the windows...).Many buildings are built so that each element fits into a complex system of proportions, and this is especially true, i believe, for monumental buildings like the sinagogue.

Proportions are really important in a builing because if you modify them, the whole perception of the building ids modified.They're just like the words composing a statement:if you change them, even slightly, the meaning of the phrase might change completely.

Therefore, it's really important to try to understand them (to try to understand the geometrical relation between the single piece and the whole context) and re-create them as faithfully as possible.Trying to find proportions might be boring and time expensive, but it pays off really well when you see your model slowly taking shape...

For now, i'd suggest you to take a look at that.

As for details, it depends...you might want to model as much details as possible, but keeping an eye on looking wheter they will be visible or not...anyway, it's not a good idea to avoid to model some details from the start because "they will surely look too small".Try and see.If they're important for the building, but aren't really clear, "exagerate" them.

You might want to take a look at the BAT thread of a fellow member (Amthaak) who did a wonderful job in re-creating an hotel from Hong Kong, trying to include every detail and making sure that every detail could be see and could have an influence on the whole.

As for nightlighting, what you said is roughly correct, but i can't help here, as i have almost no experience on it.There's a tutorial on the Omnibus, take a look there and then ask.

One last thing:Try to write the english translation after the italian text .

  Edited March 26, 2011 by Francis90b  

[nadav_82 26]

[Full quote removed - please use the quote feature only if you want to clarify what exactly you are referring to. For example, if there is one sentence in a long reply that you want to refer to, quote that sentence and write your answer so everybody can follow the discussion. The quote function is also useful when you reply to an older post and NOT to the last post above.

However, if you simply reply to the last post and/or to an entire post, you don't need to quote. Even if you answer several people at once, you can write "@Person A: ...", "@Person B: ..." so everybody knows whom you are addressing.

Full quotes make a post excessively long, so the entire thread becomes difficult to read. Hence they should be avoided unless they are really necessary.

~ T Wrecks, Moderator]

Ok, grazie dei suggerimenti, seguirò i tuoi consigli. Ho tradotto in inglese la risposta di prima per gli altri.

Più avanti posterò un nuovo thread con le immagini dell'edificio aggiornato.

Nel frattempo ti chiedo solo una cosa: cosa pensi del colore delle cupole, va bene? Cambieresti colore? Useresti una texture?

Ok, thank's for your advice, I'll follow your tips. I've translated my previous answer in english for everybody else.

Further on I'll post a new thread with the updated building.

Meanwhile I have a question: what do you think about the color of the dome (cupola)? Is it ok? Would you change color? Would you use a texture?

  Edited March 28, 2011 by T Wrecks  

[harishna 847]

Hi you are off to a good start there, but as pointed out by Francis learning to BAT requires time and patience (I know about this I have been working for almost a year in my first BAT) make sure to have all the dimensions figured out properly before you start Bating , not the overall dimensions and the proportions between elements. You can use Google Earth to get the basic measurements from the top .Then use all the pictures you can get to look at the details, count the number of windows, and look at their size and how the reference to the walls, using the grid in PS or Gimp helps a lot.

About the model it self well you need to learn how to model some details properly windows and doors should be intrude into the wall not extrude as you have modeled them about the central well

You said colors are not accurate but that this didn't matter au contraire mon ami, the quality of your textures will make the difference, you can have a beautiful model but if the textures are not up to the model well it won't look good..texturing is an equally important process as modeling.

cheers

[nadav_82 26]

[see comments above - from the context and the initial words "Hi Harishna", it is obvious that you are answering Harishna's latest reply, so you don't really need to quote his entire post. I'm sure you're going to get the hang of this soon. Nice BAT, btw! ~ T Wrecks, Moderator]

Hi Harishna, thank's for your comment. You're right about proportions, I'm already working on that and it's looking much better after doing it. Also about doors and windows, yes, probably it will look much better if they "Get in" the walls and not viceversa... I don't know how to make doors so I made them like windows only very close to the ground (You can notice that very well in the arched portico). Could you give me some instructions on how to do that?

About textures, when I said that it doesn't matter if the colors are accurate it's because I didn't expect the building to be absolutely the same as the original (and that it could be even nicer with different textures)... I'm not sure about that, maybe it should be the same as the real building so that people who download it see the "real thing", but the real one it's plain grey... I don't know... I'm afraid that it would result too plain in the colors and not attractive in the game... I really don't know what to think... btw, I like the texture I used for the walls, do you like it?

[harishna 847]

To make the doors..well there are very different ways it all depends how your modeling, there is people that make most of the model out of one object but I am guessing you are using extruded splines rectangles so that you end up with that annoying bit under the door, you can make this small enough to be hardly noticeable. In a similar way you can just use lines to draw the wall with the contour of the door you can attach the windows in the same way you doing now and if you learn how to use the snap tool you can model complex figures precisely and quickly. Another way would be to use the booleans so you can just "delete" where the door should be. A more elegant way to model will be to use polys, SimFox has a tutorial on SC4devotion when he uses a technique in which he first draws the floor plan, extrudes it, converts into a poly and then he just work from there...

About the gray textures there are not to bad but you need to learn to apply UVW maps,and don't worry about the whole thing being gray it has some nice textures like worn concrete, bricks etc,

just take your time and don't rush this is a nice building with a lot of details

[nadav_82 26]

Ok, thank's for the clear explanation Harishna . I'm posting a new thread with the improved building now. Check it out!

P.S. To the moderator: thank's for telling me about quotes, I didn't know ...

[nadav_82 26]

Ok, here it is. This is the 2nd post, if you want to see how it was before improvements it's here:

I followed the suggestions that were given to me, added many details, scaled it and made the textures better... what do you think about it now???

I'm eager to now your opinions!

4 pics of the creation and one of the original.

  Edited March 28, 2011 by nadav_82  

[jim 546 43]

There's no need to create a new thread for each update, next time add an update to the original thread, that way newcomers can see progress better and people can track the topic easier.

[madhatter106 3,903]

There's no need to create a new thread for each update, next time add an update to the original thread, that way newcomers can see progress better and people can track the topic easier.

Agreed. There's no way to track progress, see improvements, and make reference to earlier posts if you have to hop from thread to thread in order to do it. I'd suggest a moderator move/merge this with the original thread...

[Jasoncw 11,839]

Hi, I've merged your new thread into your old thread.

I wasn't sure what to call the merged thread, so I called it "Nadav_82's BATs". You can edit the title if you'd like.

[nadav_82 26]

@Jasoncw: Thank's for doing it, I'm still a newbie so I don't exactly know how the site works... What do you think of the building btw?

[harishna 847]

Great improvement, you still need to work on the details a bit, how good you want it to make it and how close you want it to look like the real thing? You can visit my thread and see the ammount of work I have put into the two buildings I am working in (you can check when I started and how long it has taken me to get to where I am at) it has been a long process but I finally feel satisfied with the outcome...

About the current state of your model the textures look better, but can still be improved, but I will say leave that for later. Right now I think the doors and windows still need some work, you can model more details for the frames and should completely re-do the windows and doors. If you look at the real life building the doors are made of wood and they are not that big, most of the door is cover by the rock frame. You have also omitted some details, added some that are inexistent and you got some proportions wrong. For example the david stars you added are inexistent, I guess you did this to cover a big empty space that is not there in the real building, this mean the proportions in your model are wrong

I took the time to indicate some aspect of the building that I think need attention I made a very coarse draft on how I think the facade should look...hope it helps

  Edited March 29, 2011 by harishna  

[nadav_82 26]

Harishna, I think you're totally right about the doors, I should completely re-do the frames and add that rock frame, it really gives a different look to the building... I think the doors arn't made of wood but of bronze and it looks rusty and old, greenish, but from the pictures the doors are so deep in the wall it's impossible to see them... but if I made them go so deep inside they would be invisible and it would look like there were no doors... what do you think, should I do that? About the stars of David above the doors, actually one door has that, but not all of them as I made it in the building... by improving the doors I'll also take those off (btw, it made me go crazy doing them!). I love the picture you gave me, it's useful to see what you were thinking!

About the windows, what do you think is wrong? Are you talking about the windows that are on the small part of the building (that actually is the facade) or about the ones that you pointed out in your picture (those ones arn't windows but just niches...)?

Let me know, meanwhile I'll work some more on those details and then post new pics.

Btw, I saw your projects and I love them, really nice, and you're making a good job! Keep it going!

[zahrul3 471]

You need to improve the texture on the domes, add some details here and there and your 75% done. You could also try reducing saturation and brightness on the wall textures since subtlety is king.

[nadav_82 26]

You need to improve the texture on the domes.

I tried to find some textures for the domes but it's very hard to find some nice ones... could you help me?

[harishna 847]

(Thanks for the comments)

I don't know how you feel about this but I am thinking on suggesting that rather modifying the existing building you can try to start from scratch, it may sound like crazy but you could use the old version just as a learning exercise. Sometimes it is easier to start from scratch rather than try to modify your current model. I mean this time you got all the info and you can go step by step, not saying that your current is that bad...so it is up to you.

And what I mean by the windows are the ones in the right wing the three above the arches. I wouldn't worry about the frames intruding too much, a little bit depth usually helps details look better in SC4 actually some of the details, like windows and frames depth, are commonly exaggerated a little bit otherwise the things look bland.

cheers

[zahrul3 471]

You need to improve the texture on the domes.

I tried to find some textures for the domes but it's very hard to find some nice ones... could you help me?

A SIMPLE brick texture would do, you can actually find textures on the STEX!

Download Ill Tonks texture set and daddyo's Brick textures, it will complete your texture file.

Make sure you untile it and add a gradient, save it as a new file. Todd has an untiling tutorial on his sig- better check it out.

[nadav_82 26]

I get your point but I really don't think I'll start it again from scratch... too much work. Besides, it not that hard to improve this one...

I'll soon post the pictures with the improvements so you can tell me your opinion about the doors and windows, meanwhile I improved the doors and I like them much more now

[nadav_82 26]

Ok, new pics, improved doors and something else.

zahrul3: I've just seen your post, I'll check the textures.

[Cleaner475 150]

I like it, and I especially like the white brick texture you're using, fits the building really well, personally though I'd change the roof texture, its just doesn't look right in my opinion, but great work and nice improvements mate

Richard

[JakeMD 107]

Ok, new pics, improved doors and something else.

zahrul3: I've just seen your post, I'll check the textures.

Hi!

You can use Photobucket.com to host your images, so they can appear bigger on the forums. Just paste the "Direct Link" right into the post and it will parse the image and it will be displayed. No need to resize, it will do that for you.

http://photobucket.com/

This way, you don't have to upload all of your images as an attachment.

[PBGV103 729]

Great start but everything is far too bright, try turning down the brightness on your textures and turn up the contrast after that. Just play around with the levels until the highlights of the white texture look about the same as the highlights in the lot texture you're using. After that you should try to get rid of the obvious tiling in your wall texture. Unless you only use 1:1 bitmaps for textures there will always be tiling, but you can definitely make it much less noticeable. From what I've heard, Todd (SimHoTToDDy) has a great tutorial on how to do that. Hope that helps a little.

[harishna 847]

First I am going to apologize if I don't use the proper terms, my vocabulary for architectural elements is pretty limited.

It is definitely a nice improvement but I still believe that if you really want to make justice to this building it would less work to start from scratch with everything properly measured than making corrections and I can guarantee you that the results would be much much better..but less talk about the model as it is. I told you that the intruded doors would be a great improvement and it shows! I am just concern about some dark lines visible in the door frames. I think the roof needs some more work the parapet has more details and don't forget the cornice and since in SC4 the roofs are the most visible part of the building I recommend spending time in getting it right The blue stained glass is to simplistic try to model the frames and details. The circular stained glass looks more like a model of the atom that the star of David, this is an element that stands out in the building so you want to be sure to model it properly, otherwise it will make the building look cheap...

About the textures well they still need some work they are all too bright at the moment you need to adjust the UVWmaps as well the bricks are way too big at the moment. And you need better textures for the roofs and the domes. You can use a leaking concrete texture for the domes (you can find some at cgtextures for the roof well I am not an expert but you look at Madhatter creations for some inspiration, he's great with textures. The best thing to do is to get a base texture then modified in GIMP or PS add some noise to it, and you make some dirt, stains and worn marks with the dodge and burn tool. You can also add worn marks and stains to the textures you using for the facade this way it won't look so plain, I recommedn you to visit simhottoddy

and try not to update the old images with new ones but rather so you can use the old ones as a reference

regards