Maps, maps, maps

[Tariel 50]

 Herllo, fellow mac users,

just a (burning) question : is there ABSOLUTELY no way for mappers to include a greyscale version of their rmaps for us ? I don't wouanagaine, I do no SC4Terraformering, I don't do any of that stuff. But I still want pretty and diverses maps. I'm sooo frustrated.

Does anyone here know of a way to deal with this ? (my next step, I guess : ask the question on the general forum...)

[Hamish 1,369]

A lot of maps have been made as greyscale, but the most recent ones are not. You could either ask the creator if they could include a greyscale version. What I also find useful is to filter the STEX by maps, so click on the maps category, and then go to the very last page, every result will be greyscale, then just go to other pages to find something that you like. You could also make your own.

[Tariel 50]

will do, thanks !

 er.. I can do my own maps, as a Mac User ? Can you point me in the direction of how ? :-) Thanks too.

[Hamish 1,369]

All you need is a graphics editing program, like The Gimp and a knowledge of to make maps. I cant actually find tutorials on how to make greyscale maps, which is disappointing. But the general technique is no hard. Firstly, read this, it will tell you how big to make a map, then you can open gimp, create a new file that large, then you will want to make it a greyscale image so that the game can read it. Go to the menu bar, click image, then mode, then click grayscale. You can then start to paint the landscape yourself. Black is the lowest point, and will be covered with water, white is the highest point on the map. I cant remember the exact colour for the shore line, but it may be about 75% black. Download a few maps and have a look at them, see what colours they use, see how the are constructed, google land formations and try to include them, thats what will make a great map.

[Synergy67 88]

I'm just getting back into the game, using my old MacPro 1,1 and Snow Leopard to play it from DVD. I don't even own (or want to own) a newer Mac or Mac OS until I absolutely have to. Going through files here to rebuild all the things I like to use for the game, I noticed all the Mapper based maps I can no longer use, much to my disappointment. Is there any reason the mappers can't be creating and including that oldschool grayscale image and including it as part of their download packages as a courtesy to Mac users? They still include the oldschool bmp.config file. It doesn't feel good to be left out in the cold on all new maps offered since the later 2000's. :/

[CorinaMarie 29,577]

Oh, my! Another thread I missed cause it was old and I wasn't following it to get beeped of a new reply.

 

On 6/15/2018 at 12:44 AM, Synergy67 said:

Is there any reason the mappers can't be creating and including that oldschool grayscale image and including it as part of their download packages as a courtesy to Mac users?

I believe this stems from the fact that many of the SC4Mapper maps are able to use more than the 256 (0-255) grayscale variations (which represent the elevations when rendered thru the game engine). In order to create a grayscale that could be rendered in game they'd have to smoosh the map and then it would not look the same in the game as what they created via the other methods.

[Cyclone Boom 16,853]

Just adding to what @CorinaMarie said above...

The formats both Mapper and Terraformer support are somewhat more advanced and allow renders of a much finer 0.1 metre precision. The real advantage here I suspect is for those maps which are based on DEM data where the accuracy would be preserved. I'm not familiar with the exact technicalities between each format, but basically the program interprets the data and forms a visual preview based on each height elevation level. Then once saving the region, it processes and writes out each of the city tiles. Therefore fully completing this step which SC4 otherwise only supports with the rendering of 8-bit greyscale bitmaps.

In the user guide for SC4Mapper, I found a bit more info:

Quote

The 3 file formats:

• SC4M is the file format that was made for having a 0.1m precision when exporting the region in SC4Terraformer. The SC4M not only store the elevations of your region, but also store the config.bmp used, and can store a HTML file that will be display when another user will import it.
   
• PNG is the only 16-bit greyscale file format that can be read/write by Photoshop CS. This was originally made for allow people to use image editors to edit the region.
   
• RGB is a normal RGB format, exactly BMP, that store the elevation following a specific scheme. It was made to get around the limitation of the 16-bit PNG that only Photoshop CS can read/write.

The RGB scheme retains the 0.1m precision by using the following rules:

• The red channel increment by 16 units, one 16 unit increment represent 409.6m
• The green channel increment by 16 units, one 16 unit increment represent 25.6m
• The blue channel can increment by one unit, one unit increment represent 0.1m

 

So indeed, I guess it's one of those things really where some mappers have preferred the newer format. Then given the benefits of accuracy, see no reason to create a greyscale alternative which may otherwise appear inferior compared to a Mapper created map.

For fictional terrain not based on a real world location, I suppose it's not so much of an issue since imagination plays a big part. Those are only comparable to the surrounding area they reside in. There are still a few of this type available on the STEX. However should anyone on Mac wish to use one of the SC4M based maps, I'm more than happy to export the saved city files as I recently did here for @Synergy67 and the Pacific Rim National Park.

I imagine the reason authors didn't consider doing so themselves is due to the sheer file size. Back in the days when maps were more frequently uploaded, this would otherwise create issues with site bandwidth and storage. Also I believe there used to be a capped limit for the total size of each STEX upload.

[blade2k5 1,523]

The reason I never did grayscale maps for simple in-game rendering is because taking a 16-bit .png (sc4m) and converting it to an 8-bit bmp or jpg (for simple in-game rendering) the elevation suddenly becomes terraced with clear definitions.  It just looks really bad and smoothing those converted grayscales basically destroys the look/elevation details of the map.  If wouanagaine's laptop hadn't been stolen all those years ago, he may have made a version of SC4Terraformer for Mac users, but unfortunately, all the program coding for the SC4Terraformer and Mapper where on that laptop.  It took quite awhile to make those programs and he had other things going on that gave him no time to re-do them both from scratch.

 

I do have around 53 maps I uploaded to the STEX that are 8-bit grayscale made with ms paint that were 'mouse' drawn around 2005/2006 before I switched to more realistic real world maps using DEM data.  The very early ones are crappy and rather pathetic though as my skills were not there yet, but grew better with each map I 'mouse drew.'  Check some of those out if you like.  I cannot convert the SC4Terraformer maps to 8-bit bmps/jpgs because I no longer have the original pngs I used to to load into SC4Terraformer.

[Synergy67 88]

Thanks. I'm glad to have a good understanding what the difference is and why we can't just convert an SC4M map using the old-school grayscale jpg for rendering through SC4 itself. And that's a real bit of bad luck for everyone, wouanagaine's laptop theft. 

[blade2k5 1,523]

I'm glad you understood what wrote above.  Sometimes when I re-read what I post when trying to explain things, it looks like gibberish to me and wonder how anyone can understand what I write.  I guess it's true what they say, you are your own worst critic.

[Synergy67 88]

Ha ha, it's true, isn't it. Well, it's as easy as understanding what is lost when you convert a 16-bit png to an 8-bit jpeg, which apparently is required for in-game rendering along with the config.bmp. I never realized jpegs were only 8-bit. I learned something new.

[CorinaMarie 29,577]

4 minutes ago, Synergy67 said:

I never realized jpegs were only 8-bit. I learned something new.

They are not in and of themselves 8-bit, but can be if saved in grayscale format for that limited depth of color. The full color ones are 24 bit. Also, BMPs can be as little as 2 bit, but can be up to 32 bit.

And, btw, if you do plan to render any grayscale images via the in game thinger, use the BMP format cause you will have odd merging between shades if you use the lossy JPG.

[blade2k5 1,523]

56 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

They are not in and of themselves 8-bit, but can be if saved in grayscale format for that limited depth of color. The full color ones are 24 bit. Also, BMPs can be as little as 2 bit, but can be up to 32 bit.

And, btw, if you do plan to render any grayscale images via the in game thinger, use the BMP format cause you will have odd merging between shades if you use the lossy JPG.

The reason I never used bmp's was because of the file sizes.  They make pngs look like lightweights, like pngs make jpgs look lightweight.  Of course this was back in the day when harddrives were tiny compared to today's.  Back when I first started making maps in late '05 early '06, my HD was only 30gb.  When I had the current pc I use now to play the game and made accurately scaled maps from DEM data built, I upgraded to a 250gb HD and added a 2tb external HD, giving me 2.25tb of space.  The home built pc is now approaching the ripe old age of 11 next month and was disconnected from the internet late last year.  My son gave me this chromebook I using now for the internet.