nybt-forum-threads NYBT BAT Thread

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Oh Paul, I didn't see your reply on 250 Broadway. Curse the PageFlip bug...I only saw Simfox's... I still have 250 Broadway, I'm just taking a break on it to finish Wall Street Plaza. I'm going to start up on it again when Wall Street Plaza is finished.

GuerrilaWarfare- Don't feel discouraged nor confused. Simfox is trying to help. His model is an example to help you with yours(I'm assuming since it's rude to just bash into a thread and take over a BAT all ready started by someone else but Simfox wouldn't do that).

EDIT: Simfox, I know the top of 500 Fith Avenue is basic but it doesn't slope like that...But still, a very wonderful start.

[GuerrilaWarfare 39]

It does as a matter of fact Pepper

but ever so slightly

also SimFox, did you make those models yourself because from the time I showed my rendering to now, you've finished 2 models in under 2 day where as I took 5 days to finish 25% of my model which isn't even proportional ... that to me is discouraging.

Yet again you've been BAT'ing for 5 years where I've only been BAT'ting for 2 weeks give or take.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

I've seen pictures of it before, and I said doesn't slope like that, not in a way that says it doesn't but to me it really doesn't loook like it. It's more like stacked beautiful Art-Deco Crown.

Such a wonderful work of architecture.

[Jumpthefence 74]

Ahoy!

Replies:

T Wrecks: Well, I'm glad you like it, for the most part. As for the windows, I obviously messed around with them (as the following BAT will show). Though the reflection-glassy texture wasn't modified except for brightness, I added blinds to create a more varying look. I might take up the idea of playing with the glass more, it's never going to reach that perfect level I want it ever so close to. As for the mullions, some good ole math and tweaking has solved that problem. Although I'm not sure why they look like a rectangular cross section... they're hexagons, though only three of the six sides are showing. Confusion?

Brandon: Wall Street Plaza looks pretty good so far, though very simple. At the moment, the glass looks much like a Bing Maps picture with blue-ness added. I'd suggest a couple of Photoshop or GIMP filters, maybe Spread, Noise, you get the idea. You also need to vary the windows more, but I think a bit of editing, maybe some blinds (if that's the office style). And good job finding that Sim. You sure taught him that a New York City courtyard is not a good hiding place!

GuerrilaWarfare: Welcome to the team! I've seen your work, not bad! I'm sure Simfox covered everything you need to know about the building (for now), and he pretty well knows what he's doing. I hope to see you continue improving!

Paul: Oh... My... GAWDZ! *Beatles related freakout*

How are some of your Midtown buildings coming? I think Sgt Pepper and I are focused more on the smaller Lower Manhattan, so I'm just wondering how the perceived workload is for you.

Simfox: You're too helpful to our team! And you're not asking anything in return! I don't get it! *Long, angry sigh*

Good work though.

Time for a BAT to balance out all friggin text:

1UP: Window darkness, Window mullions were changed to a much darker shade (as the result of a failure on my part), window variations, mullion thickness, corner mullion thickness.

And now it's sort of done! Sort of!... Suggestions?

Edit: GuerrilaWarfare: Oh, have fun with that! I'm serious. You'll quickly find that complicated things are worth it, just so you can learn how, and then be able to say you made, certain elements. And if you have difficulties, you can always post here. Also, Brandon's been BATing, like, 2 years. Simfox is probably closer to 5- no- 50 years of experience.

Wait a second, Simfox isn't that old...

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

SimFox- OMG are you part of the NYBT now???? It wolud be nice to have you on the team. Oh, How did you make it in polys or what?

Great Buildings!!!!!

Jumpthefence- Looks really good.

[PBGV103 729]

Wow SimFox, you're amazing! Were those models single objects in 3ds max, or did they just look that way? I can't imagine how long it would take to make those with splines. I guess that just proves how lazy I am with modelling. hahaha I REALLY hope you don't abandon them when they're that far along!

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Brandon's been BATing, like, 2 years.

 

Actually, a tad longer than that. I first started BATing before I ever started posting at this site. But it wasn't that long though. So I'd say about 3 years but I can't really remember...and the glass...It's the Maxis Glass Texture...Noise...I haven't tried adding more noise before...time to experiment.

Also, your model, looking good! I still wish you would have made it with the RL shape...but it's no big deal. Don't forget that the building is currently residential, though it used to be an office building. So would there be a commercial and residential versions? Just curious.  I think the mechanical floor texture you're using should be darker, based on photographs I've seen.

[GuerrilaWarfare 39]

I certainly appreciate the help from your Models SimFox, I just hope as soon as I upload mine there wont be another version (SimFox's) 1000x better uploaded 3 seconds later.

You guys probably don't like it when I show my progress every 10 seconds, especially since It's small bits of it new things shown in each of my pictures.

I also rescaled it to my likings

Ty Sgt Pepper for your small tutorial

[PBGV103 729]

Hey Guerrila looks good, I'd just check the alignment of the ground floor windows to the window columns (for lack of a better word). To me at least, it looks a little off. Take a look at SimFox's model again.

[GuerrilaWarfare 39]

There's no real way with dealing with that cause then I have to delete the ENTIRE model and start over to fix it, since it's the first thing i started I built everything around it.

I'm just happy i have the correct amount of windows on each side of the building. I'm almost positive I'm going to make a v2 anyway but not for awhile.

Also guys, texturing and nightlightings are coming soon, i can use some help

[PBGV103 729]

Guerrila - You used splines to create the walls right? Can't you can delete the extrude modifier and adjust the splines to the correct spacing, and then re-extrude them? I just think you'll be happier with it in the long run if you perfect all the modelling details now. I know I wish I had on some of my older BATs that are now lost... It's just nice to finish something and not have any regrets is what I'm saying.

[SimFox 801]

JTF:

Your model is coming along nicely, I think you were wise to make it rectangular rather than go for original trapezoid shape.
 

Roof is nicely stuffed, not overcrowded with what so perceptively called junk. Everything is functional and it's place.

But I would also like to see some stronger and sharper patterns in the windows texture to make it look more like a glass and less like plastic veggie bag you find in supermarkets. Cause it is sharp, well defined and contrasty reflections that make glass look like glass. Since there are no reflectivity in GMAX you would need to fake it by mixing some images. try to keep stronger contrast. and don' smooth things too much.

 

About the top of 500-5Ave.
Yeah the thing on top and just a place holder, the real thing should be sculpted, but for that I would need to study it shape. Same goes for all the reliefs on the building. I'm not sure as of yet how to make them - to model or to draw. But we'll see, right?

 

I do sincerely hope to finish it, although I can't give any timetable. I've started the whole thing only because I was sort of caught in a limbo of sorts. I've done the InterChem study to illustrate it's proportions and some such and them Google earth just scrawled and stopped right on top of it. "What a beauty", I though! Then I realized that this building was on some sort of wish/to do list around here and I thought to give it a go. If I do finish It would be my attachmet to the application to join such an estimed team...

 

I know I do have quite a few unfinished projects, but I think this one is different in a crucial way. All those are more than just a buildings, they all include plazas, and some such, open spaces that are crucial to define them. And it is exactly this negative space of plazas that attracts and at the same time challenge (in terms how to realize it for the game) me. With 500-5ave the building precisely fits 4x2 lot. So the whole thing is limited just to making the building itself. Plus I saw Xylo's beautiful Palmolive tower on STEX and I wanted to do something along these lines. Yet the asymmetry of 500-5ave is especially nice. It makes it dynamic, alive, sort of.

 

Although it is noticeably more complex than InterChem It is still not too crazy - no impossible bending in all three dimensions or highly ambiguous proportions. The rhythm is quite clean and clear. So it took about a day (say about 8 hours) to model with significant part of that time spent on figuring proportions, counting the floors, organizing source material and some such. Biggest challenge so far had been apparent fact that either facades of the building aren't exactly same, I mean I assume that window width is same but the "pillars" of "same " width may differ, or that building isn't exactly rectangular cause if you add all the elements from west facade and do the same with the elements of east faced (provided same dimensions) total of facades will not match. But this is difficult pill to swallow. So, I tried and tried to re-calculate it, alas with no result. The difference would always be about 1 meter - eg west facade (one facing 5th avenue) would be 1 meter shorter that it suppose to. So I, guilty, cheated in the end. In order to hide this extra meter most discretely I have divided it evenly between all the compositional elements of the left part of the 5th avenue facade that includes window which I'm sure are all of equal width). Yet in the end I think it looks good and plausible. Appearance of strict uniformity is maintained.

 

Guerilla:

I think you are wrong in trying to scale things up at this point of time. Especially if you add "to my liking". How could you like or, alternatively, dislike something you haven't done/seen yet.  More that that by doing so at this stage of modeling and your expiriece with the process you in effect digging the hole you gonna fall in later, because you destroying original proportions and they are the alphabet of the architecture. With it gone you wouldn’t be able to read the message.

Instead of doing that you should have concentrated on this very proportions you are busy destroying. You know it took me about 2 or so hours to do that study of the InterChem building. And out of that time about 2/3 went to actually gathering material and doing some basic calculations and planning. The modeling for this building is easy and straight forward to extreme. Architect gives you very strong and precise clues of what is what size and where and how it fits. You should only open your eyes to see it. Generally speaking the secret of good BAT is 75% of seeing and 25% of actual modeling. And there is nothing worse that you can do to you model then to rush into modeling stuff, and be overly concerned with splines, polygons and techniques. You rush into doing things before you actually understand what exactly you’re supposed to be doing. If I were to model it now again it would take me about 20 min tops to get the same very study I made earlier. And that is NOT because I’ve been BATing for 5 or whatever years, It is not about my techniques, but more about my approach.
 

And yes, I did model both building from scratch based ONLY on data found on Google earth and Emporis. I did it all by myself with no help from anyone. But most importantly I have though it through first, at least in general level that would allow me to build the model for SC4.
 

So don’t rush into it. take a time and think through the design of the tower. find what key numbers and proportions are. How they relate to each other. Then and only then you may start thinking of the techniques that would be most appropriate to model what you already know. You would be surprised how much easier it all will be. Otherwise you’ll keep falling into same traps over and over again, as you later picture already demonstrated and  PBGV103 had pointed.

PS No I’m not gonna continue modeling this building or releasing it; at least not now. So it’s all yours if you want it. Besides it is a regular clone and there are dozen or so same clones in few block radius. That, naturally doesn’t make it undesirable, if anything quite an opposite – perfect filler you wouldn’t get tired of.

[PBGV103 729]

Hey guys, sorry I haven't spent any time working on the lever house.  I've been pretty busy, plus I'm waitting for SimFox's FSH update because even getting rid of spaces in folder names didn't take care of the problem for me.  I did, however, get my new ram today and installed it.  I did a test render of the lever house in HD on zoom5.  It only took about 3 minutes and 32% of my total memory!    I'm thinking that I might release the final BAT in HD.  I know it's not recommended for large BATs because of export time, but wouldn't it be kinda cool? 

Edit:  Ughhh apparently Imageshack loves to rescale images and ruin their detail.  Oh well...

[Sgt Pepper 864]

You guys probably don't like it when I show my progress every 10 seconds, especially since It's small bits of it new things shown in each of my pictures.

 

Actually, we don't mind! I like seeing all the progress you do! I hope to see it finnished soon! It's a great modern building.

If I do finish It would be my attachmet to the application to join such an estimed team...

Well well well! Simfox, if you really want to join this team, then by all means you are welcome to do so! 500 Fith Avenue is a very beautiful art-deco structure(it was designed by the same guy that designed the Empire State Building, for those who don't know). You've captured it quite perfectly so far. The proportions are great, details so far have come to life. I can't wait to see it finished.

Seeing 500 Fith Avenue here makes me wonder why Maxis didn't include the "based-on version" of it in SC4 like they did in SC3000.

EDIT: Sorry Paul, I didn't see your post when I was typing minee. So far so good on the Lever House! How come some of the windows dissappeared on it though? Something seems up on the brick textures, some areas are really dark like shadows. I'm sure Simfox will be able to explain since he's the MAX expert here.

[PBGV103 729]

Yeah, the brick texture on there isn't the one I'll end up using and there are weird shadows showing up on the roof because the roof is made of 4 polys, not a single object, and half of the polys don't show up in renders and half of the textures don't show up either. I think those are issues created because I imported the model into 3ds max from gmax. I guess some things are lost in all the conversions

[halo1dragon 10]

nice pbgv103

[GuerrilaWarfare 39]

SimFox, i'm just gonna on a limb and uhh ask you if Time Warner's Center can make it's way on your to-do list

[Jumpthefence 74]

Happy July 24th everyone!

Replies:

Brandon: Not 2 years?... Oops...

Actually, a tad longer than that. I first started BATing before I ever started posting at this site. But it wasn't that long though. So I'd say about 3 yearsquote>

As for the building, I do plan to release a residential version, a commercial version (this will have more limited features. For roof decoration, send some lobbyists), ploppable and residential versions, and maybe a diagonal version. Eight versions in all!? Hmm...

And yes, I've darkened the roof floor. That was a good tip; I also had to modify the UVW as well.

GuerrilaWarfare: I'd suggest clicking on the Edit Spline modifier in the Modify tab, then adding an Edit Mesh modifier. This will allow you to move some vertices without removing the Extrude modifier. Granted, this may get complicated, if you'd like to do it another way. But that's how I'd do it. As for overposting, if there's progress, we're happy. No one wants to come to a BAT Thread that's all text. That's just boring.

Simfox: I tried a couple of GIMP filters out. Let's see what you think.

Paul: The geometry doesn't look too bad, but I'm just going to come out and say it: The textures and UVW Maps are atrocious. Although I'm sure that'll get sorted out. The dimensions look pretty close, so you've got a good thing going.

More tweaking leads to:

There isn't much to say about this building that I haven't already. Darker roof textures and new glass.

See you later.

[PBGV103 729]

Does anyone have any idea why pieces of polys and in some cases entire objects are disappearing during renders?  Below you can see what I mean.

[PBGV103 729]

Finally was able to insert the FSH files manually.  From some angles they look weird, but it's whatever.  I'm just glad I figured out how to do it (kinda).  Here's the result:

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

PBGV103, See here. Might solve your issue, simple enough to fix as long as you have some patience.

Also, make sure you have the texture fix for gmax, this is usually what causes crazy things to happen to the model file.

[PBGV103 729]

SimHoTToDDy - Thanks, but this was exported in 3ds max, not gmax.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

Oh, on the contrary. How did you make the model file that you use in 3dsmax?

We are still very much bound to gmax for making that pesky LOD only model file. If there is an issue making it in gmax, then there will be an issue when you insert the real model in 3dsmax.

[PBGV103 729]

Ohh ok yeah, that makes sense. Thanks I'll have to check it out. If I am having an issue like Superstar had on his Key Tower, then it's not nearly as extreme, but thats a great thing to keep in mind. I'll have to make sure I check out those values. Thats definitely great info for anyone having FSH or LOD issues. Thanks!

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

Yeah, then that's something the texture fix should hopefully solve. You will have to re export, but the frequency of issues should go down drastically.

https://www.sc4devotion.com/maxis/ModelNames.zip

I used to have one on every model I exported, but now it is rare. Can't remember the last issue, maybe some 30 exports ago.

[SimFox 801]

Congratulations of getting manual insert to work! Not that hard, but annoying for sure!

New BAT release is a bit delayed - damn modeling had destructed me. But I could give you a "preview" copy or say RC version if you're willing to try it and also see what problems may arise with it installation and use. You see for me it is often difficult to figure out what problem people will have and to write instructions - I know these inside out and things appear obvious to me when they are not to others. But giving it to people who can't follow basic and step by step instructions is also counterproductive.
 

----- Rant starts here--->

The problem they have nothing to do with software itself but with the way they think, or, more likely not think. Problem is that somehow we came to the situation when you simply can't tell this honestly to a person anymore - it is considered rude! It is much more socially accepted to simply ignore such a person then to risk upsetting him by trying to point the root of his/her problems. It had become the part of western social contract. Sellers flatter buyers in a hope to close the deal. Doesn't really matter what is sold - goods, like cars or software, or services like vocations or government/political the underlying principle is same. Everybody knows especially at the top, I speak of people creating those "twisted truths", that it is all big lie, but everybody is locked in this dance and no-one dares to leave first - it all looks like a party is in a full swing on Titanic. <------rant ends here----

Sorry for sidetracking. Anyway, since you've figured out how to insert the FSHs, particularly the fact that you didn't succeeded at first but managed to get it done in the end and that you don't really have previous experience with BAT4Max I think you'd be a good guinea pig, if you choose to... to get some public good to be done and cover yourself in... Well, in an eternal glory! PM me if you're interested.

 

First of all I believe your problem is nothing like one Superstar had.

Second this ModelNames fix does nothing to either your, or Superstar’s problem.

What it does it introduces new algorithm to create unique names for both s3d and FSH files. This is an attempt to avoid conflict with already existing IDs in game. Most telling sign of one using new or old script is to examine the names of SC4Modle files output by GMAX BAT. With old script Instance Id went up a notch with every export you did. With new it stays same at 0x0030000 (shown as 0x30000 in SC4modle file names).

 

The cause of  problem you have is most likely single sided material or flipped normals , hard to say, but I would say it is much easier to re-make those flags than find out and fix. Well, of course, then there is the satisfaction of being a good little detective - and that's priceless! No kidding!

 

One of the most common issues that arise during GMAX-MAX transfer is screwed smoothing groups. Generally it seems that at some stage of that convoluted process same smoothing group is applied to all polygons (faces) on each object. Smoothing groups is illusion of shading that makes cylinder to look like cylinder and not like n-gone. To fix it you would need to go to each of the objects and manually remove this smoothing group. In max 2010 and up you can simply select one object at the time and in Graphite modeling ribbon click on Properties tab and there on Hard

 

 

That being said, what you see both in Render and in Viewports is a good example why you shouldn't use textures early on. They hid and mask and confuse the real problem you may have with your geometry. Are those dark, or bleached corners result of smoothing groups galore, or simply crappy textures? Could be either, and it’s hard to tell. So dump them. You don’t really need most of them for this building.

Instead, concentrate first on getting you model done. I would also be so nasty and bold as to suggest to actually re-model everything anew using your existing model as a template of sorts. What I mean is that you use same measurements - you could simply snap new geometry to the old. This isn't a monkey business it may appear at first sight. It is a good way to learn new tool set. You concentrate just on making thins itself rather than keep thinking if this box makes your ... look big or not.

 

While at it, try to keep you scene organized from get go! All the elements that are part of the bigger whole should be part of same object. All the objects that logically belong together should sit together on a same layer. There should be unique layers for all the unique parts of the model. And last, but not least everything should be clearly named. Hunting down box2464864 is a recipe to get one way ticket to looney bin! Of course the devil, as we all know, is in detail. What exactly makes elements a part of that bigger whole? And what a heck is "the bigger whole" is it a hole? A black hole to where all sense and reason fall and is not seen again? Well it is may be tricky at first and precise definition may differ from one individual to another. Let's try to determine it for your model (I very much invite everybody to follow), shall we?

 

OK you're making the beautiful and revolutionary Lever House! First look at it clearly shows that tit has base and tower - so there right from the start you have two candidates to form their own layers. What makes up those? Let’s start from the base, since it is already there. The wall of the base is basically (for bigger part) is just a repetition of windows. So windows could be one of the objects. You can make it as a single object (and apply multi-material to it in order to distinctly show the glass plane, the frame and the other bits). This is perfectly good way for something that will not be see through. Still even in such setup you would probably want to light up some of the windows. It would be far handy to do so if those bits that do actually light up would be separate object. I'm talking now of glass planes. Not just those that will actually be lit up, but of ALL of the glass planes. This would greatly simplify the task of randomly selecting them. So in this case you would have glass, windows that are basically frames and bits that are not actual glass planes of the window, you have columns, you have roof - it's most definitely should be a single object. Than you have Floor/floors, flags (these could be put on a separate layer with the rest of bells and whistles not essential to the model itself). That's it, given, of course, that your glass will not be see-through. If it will be, than you need more detail surrounding it. - Frames for instance yours be fully 3d and have back parts as well, you would need floor inside and perhaps walls, still all frames should be a single object etc...

here is, on the example of 500^th-5Ave how I have set layers:

 

and objects:

[maikeli.1 12]

Hows every one All of your models are fabulous you all deserve a big thank you especially to Sgt pepper for Creating this BAT team

[cmdp123789 710]

bug....

[PBGV103 729]

Hahaha  yeah, I think its a smoothing group issue because, as bad as they may be, none of my textures/materials have super bright or dark corners.  Most of them are small images clipped from photographs of the lever house.  Heres an example:

That one was taken from a picture of the base of the lever house, and is one of the glass rectangles below the windows.

[Darknono35 3,137]

I've change the facade of my building, now I must remake the windows colors . I hope the windows scale are OK, and I'll upload two version on the Stex in the same pack, one in diagonal, and the other in orthogonal like the "Denver Republic Plaza"

Now I think, the aluminum square of the windows aren't enought dark ...