Moving On

[castironpigeon 1]

SC4 has been around for a good long while and looks to still be going strong despite a lack of support from EA. I'm curious to see how everyone feels about moving on to another city sim. What would make you leave SC4 behind? Is there anything that can't be modded or fixed by the SC4 custom content gurus? Is there anything that would definitely hold you back from switching? I hope this doesn't turn into a complaint thread or a pissing match.

For my part, I've already left SC4 behind because I don't have the time to devote to metagaming. Still, I can't help but stop in here now and then to see the amazing new content still being posted. I'm fairly convinced that any code limitation can be circumvented by the folks still posting new content here even without access to source code, but the issue will always be one of time spent tweaking the game outside the game. Not dependencies. Those are fine. Let's not go there in this thread. The issue is that, given a very limited play time (say 2 hours a week), I can browse new content, find something I want, download and tweak the lots to suit a city, then finally load them up in the city. I've eaten up almost the entire time I had set aside before I even get to marvel at the niftiness of my creation.

SCS doesn't seem like a good alternative to me, but I hope CXL will streamline the metagaming process by centralizing and controlling custom content. Will this work? Will it backfire? I'm not sure and I'd be interested in hearing others' opinions. There is also the issue of 3D vs 2D-isometric. The only place in gaming I've ever seen 3D graphics used well is first person shooters. 2D isometric graphics offer a lot more bang for the buck and I think it's an issue that will cause CXL players a lot of grief. So the success or failure of CXL's custom content delivery system and the ability of MC to pull off a credible 3D city sim are what will dictate to me whether I can move on to CXL or suck it up and reinstall SC4. How does everyone else feel about the switch?

[dedgren 830]

I could spend a lot of time writing a detailed response to this question, but realized after thinking a bit that it's all about point of view in the end, and mine can be summed up in a few words. We all but own SC4 today- we can do almost anything we want to with it. The way things look, Monte Cristo will never let that happen with CXL, which it appears has been purposefully designed by MC to keep things that way.

My guess is that a very high percentage of the current actively MODding and BATting folks in the SC4 community will stay right here. I'd be happy to explain my reasons why but, like castironpigeon, I have no desire to set off a flame war. I know there are plenty of folks who are eager to see CXL make its debut. I wish them the best.

David

[castironpigeon 1]

David, your point brings up another few questions. Are the custom content folks doing what they do so well for themselves or for everyone? Would they jump ship if the SC4 crowd got sufficiently small? I ask because the freedom of SC4 is also dangerous to it. If MC keeps tight control of custom content it could mean that all of it is kept in one place and, if they're smart, it could mean that bringing new content into the game is quick and easy for the end user. This means nothing to a veteran and a lot to a newbie. Simtrop/STEX/LEX/etc are intimidating to a newbie. Some newcomers will enjoy the challenge, many could opt for CXL instead. If the SC4 population stalls and eventually falls off it'll be tough for the SC4 custom content community.

[Joetropian1 1]

The STEX wasnt intimidating until I discovered the 20+ websites other ppl wee gong to and found that I could never compete in terms of city-building... it makes me sad but I simply dont have the time, as you said, to mega-game anymore. i still play, and still visit the site regularly, but not, it seems, regurlarly. MCs tight control will limit CC but really help for those who dont want to go searching Japanese sites for a tiny park dependency that allows you to use one tiny skyscraper from a totally different site... *sigh* . Still, it will be hard leting go of SimCity. My latest region has really picked up, but Im not even done terraforming yet and its been a month since Ive started...

JT1

[His Divine Hand 244]

In the end, the reality of a constantly changing PC market will kill SC4 to all but a handful. As new processors, video cards, OSes, etc. come out, compatibility will slowly wither down the number than can play SC4. The PC market is cruel to old games, and SC4 is not an exception.

[Snakepit Dave 11]

Wow HDH!  So well put! The landscape of gaming has been dictated by the machine, not the other way around.  You can also factor in finance.  The console world can make a billion with Grand theft Auto...and the PC World can make hundreds with the next great war/battle/railroad/rollercoaster/city sim.  Being a gamer of various platforms since 1983 (seriously...we used cassettes to load games on the TRS-80), I am stunned by what the SC4 community has accomplished.  Can it continue?

[Smudger 0]

If only maxis were to release a brand-spanking new expansion, to fight the compatibilty issues, and reawaken the SC4 community.

[ScarcticCG 3]

It would take somebody to produce another 2D City-sim before I moved on. Unfortunately my computer can only handle SC4 on medium settings, I'd hate to imagine what would happen to my computer with a fully 3D format. (Probably something starting with BO and ending with OM). And even then it would have to have comparable realism and depth. What would win it for me though would be better looking 3D terrain, a slightly less serious tone (what happened to ridiculously sized skyscrapers and cars on lawns?) and more rewarding and open ended game play. I hope that's what SC5 "will" be like!

[dedgren 830]

@castironpigeon:

Are the custom content folks doing what they do so well for themselves or for everyone?quote>

The answer to that is on the various exchanges, my friend.

Would they jump ship if the SC4 crowd got sufficiently small?quote>

I've estimated elsewhere that the "hardcore" SC4 community members who are active at any one time is less than 500 folks, and probably less than 250. That group might lose 10 or 20 percent of its number. Maybe a thousand or so over time more play the game with any regularity for more, say, than a year. That number might fall by, what? Half? More? I don't see any custom content creator I know of (most all of whom I'd put in the hardcore group) thinking, "well, there's only about half as many folks looking at what I do as before, so I guess I'll hang it up."

Some newcomers will enjoy the challenge, many could opt for CXL instead.quote>

I think most newcomers to the "city builder" genre will gravitate to CXL. Unless I miss my bet, though, I think that CXL will have way more the standard half-life of a PC game. Its playability, as described by MC, sounds pretty unremarkable, and the "mile wide-inch deep" quality of graphic detail will not wear well- at least that's what I predict based on what I've seen through today. Most newcomers will get bored after a few months and move on the Next Big Thing. Some will stay with CXL, and form that game's hardcore fan group. Still others, though, will move on to SC4, probably through exposure to it at community sites like ST, and find true inner peace and happiness.

...yeah, that last part is a bit editorial in nature...

@His Divine Hand:

The PC market is cruel to old games, and SC4 is not an exception.quote>

Says who? SC4 runs the best it ever has (and that's been since January, 2003) on my mid-line HP notebook with 64-bit Vista and 4 gig of memory. It runs just about as well on my lame old desktop with 32-bit Vista, 3 gig of memory and a middling good graphics card output to a 47"/1.2m Vizio LCD TV. Windows XP had a nine year run, from '99 to '08. Based on that, Vista will be around well into this next decade.

Heck, I installed Myst on my laptop, and it runs (well, lurches, actually, but that's not the computer's fault) just fine. It's not the hardware that's cruel, my friend- it's the wetware. Fickle old you and me, and John and Jane down the street. Always looking for the next big thing. To date, though, SC4 has been pretty much immune to fickle. We (the market) killed SimCity: Societies and put City Life on a respirator, so we don't hesitate to vote with our feet when we feel like it. I'd bet there are many more people playing SC4 today on a regular basis than in the year the game was released. The custom content community has never had a better year than 2008, at least not until this year is over. Yeah, SC4's run will end someday. But I bet that's not because it will just stop booting up on the 'puter. Some company will (finally) get the "worthy successor" thing right, and then we can all move on.

@Snakepit Dave:

Can it continue? quote>

See my first answer to castironpigeon's questions above. The exchanges have never had so much new quality custom content, much of it groundbreaking, all at once.

@Smudger:

If only maxis were to release a brand-spanking new expansion, to fight the compatibilty issues, and reawaken the SC4 community.quote>

EA (which devoured Maxis without even a polite belch during the SC3K days) is probably feeling so burned about having lost control of SC4 to the community that an expansion pack is almost certainly the last thing on its mind. Again, the exchanges- who needs, a'la The Sims...

...the horror, the horror...

...a worthless new (US) $49.99 expansion pack every six months?

@ScarticCG:

I hope that's what SC5 "will" be like!quote>

It's what SC4 is like right now- why wait?

David

[ScarcticCG 3]

@ dedgren I'm not going to quote because that's a very long post, but generally speaking, your right. SC4 is getting on a bit more at 7 years old and it will eventually wither and die. Some communities inexplicably stay alive for years after the game they celebrate made, such as many of the fallout communities. Others like this stay with the very most hardcore members returning regularly. But that's what I like about the community; Its small. People don't clamor for the limelight, there aren't any segregation's between members, the people who do come here know what they're doing and the people are also generally helpful as possible.

I haven't been here long, and I would have never have heard of his place hadn't I recently pulled the game out from my pile of games. I'd say this place has another couple of years before its curtains. It may be a shame, but it will happen.

[His Divine Hand 244]

Originally posted by: dedgren

@His Divine Hand:

Says who? SC4 runs the best it ever has (and that's been since January, 2003) on my mid-line HP notebook with 64-bit Vista and 4 gig of memory. It runs just about as well on my lame old desktop with 32-bit Vista, 3 gig of memory and a middling good graphics card output to a 47"/1.2m Vizio LCD TV. Windows XP had a nine year run, from '99 to '08. Based on that, Vista will be around well into this next decade.

Heck, I installed Myst on my laptop, and it runs (well, lurches, actually, but that's not the computer's fault) just fine. It's not the hardware that's cruel, my friend- it's the wetware. Fickle old you and me, and John and Jane down the street. Always looking for the next big thing. To date, though, SC4 has been pretty much immune to fickle. We (the market) killed SimCity: Societies and put City Life on a respirator, so we don't hesitate to vote with our feet when we feel like it. I'd bet there are many more people playing SC4 today on a regular basis than in the year the game was released. The custom content community has never had a better year than 2008, at least not until this year is over. Yeah, SC4's run will end someday. But I bet that's not because it will just stop booting up on the 'puter. Some company will (finally) get the "worthy successor" thing right, and then we can all move on.quote>

Really? Because I see a constant stream of threads on almost all of these fansites of people looking for help getting SC4 to work on Vista, not to mention SC4's inability to use multiple cores. Many of these issues are fixable for now, but how long down the road until it is not, or at least not worth the effort for most of us (admittedly, that would probably be a decade, but then again, computing is a rapidly changing area)?

We also have to look at your belief that Vista will be around for awhile. As I recall, Vista has generally been a flop as OSes go, and MS is already working on Windows 7 to replace that. They even had to close off the beta downloads since it was in such high demand. Seems like Vista is another 2000/ME, to be quickly replaced (as a note, I'm pretty sure XP did not come out until 2002 or 2003 as it was a replacement for the fore mentioned OS).

[Tarkus 6,932]

I personally would consider myself one of the "hardcore" members that David (dedgren) mentioned above.  While I've generally tried to avoid making any public comments regarding "the future" as of late, I feel I should finally divulge my thoughts on the matter.

Personally, the only way I see myself really leaving the SC4 community is if RL yanks me away.  Quite simply, the game has not gotten old for me, even after all these years.  Having delved quite deep into the internal files, I also have a very good idea of what all this game is capable of doing--there's still a long ways to go. 

In fact, there's actually a lot of room for the modding community to keep expanding the game's functionality for at least another 4-5 years minimum--and that's just on the transit end of things, and without gaining access to the .exe/source code.  There is a lot that is already technically possible, and the modding community just needs time to implement (hence why the NWM has fallen by the wayside the past 1.5 years).  The only real limiting factor is that some of the RULs (namely the Puzzle Piece RUL, RUL 0x10000000) have finite space.

While I respect Monte Cristo and Philippe and sincerely wish them the best of luck with Cities XL, what they are doing does not appear to be my cup of tea . . . er . . . coffee (I'm a Grande White Mocha fiend).  The market is demanding 3D, but the hardware is not yet capable of providing a full-on SC4-type experience in full-3D.  I'd predict that things won't really catch up on that end until at least 2012.

From what I understand of their custom content model from the chat several of my custom content colleagues had with Philippe back in September, which can be read in its entirety here, it'll be pretty much buildings-only with Monte Cristo doing all the modding.  

I can't do any more than speculate whether or not they've revised that plan, but as someone who has gotten at least part of their enjoyment out of SC4 by actively modifying the game's functionality (I still play the game quite regularly, too--in fact, that's what drives my modding), even the slightest restriction on that end will come as somewhat of a letdown.  Unless they pull off something truly miraculous, I have no intent of purchasing CXL. 

The same goes with any other city simulator that may come out here soon--unless it offers a significant improvement over SC4, I'll be sticking with SC4 for a long time to come.

-Tarkus

[Muck308 55]

Eventually, yes. This game will die. hard to imagine since I've been playing some version of SimCity for about 15 years. Will I try CXL? No. For the same reason I don't watch new TV shows. I don't really have time to get sucked into something else. I mean just because you are positive you will enjoy something doesn't mean you must. So SC will eventually be a memory, that is occasionally played by a few folks here and there on an old machine maybe. But don't be sad! We play this game for many reasons, but it msotly boils down to creativity. We all need to express that in some way. Well some of us like to express it in many ways. I have always been fascinated with cities and urban areas. I have been drawing fictional cities for years. I mean a lot. Doodling in class, making masterpieces in my spare time while I could have been out joing a gang, I've even turned in maps as art projects when I was in school. Simcity has been an outlet for urban design for me since I discovered the first installation of the series. I will move on from Sc as a means to design these fictional places I like to escape to. Once you look at the game like that, it becomes only a medium. A medium that will be replaced by superior ones over and over until the end of time. The real question for me is, What will we use to express our imagination in the future?

[dedgren 830]

Well, His Divine Hand, I'll split the difference with you. Windows XP was released to the mass market in October, 2001 [linkie], so I stand corrected. I'd forgotten about Windows 2K Professional, which I ran starting in 1999 for a couple of years.

David

[Haljackey 17,326]

I won't say much about this because I have already talked about it in another thread.

David, you might be interested in taking a look at it:

https://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=370&threadid=94009&enterthread=y&STARTPAGE=11#last

(the last post on that page)

Essentially, you can't really compare the two.  SC4 is a game that has had multiple patches, an expansion pack, and a ton of custom content.  CXL hasn't even come out yet! 

Give it time to prove itself.  I will be getting CXL regardless because I like what I have seen so far in the pre-release photos.  That doesn't mean I'll just stop playing SC4!

SCS, on the other hand, I never got.  The only reason SCS is still selling nowadays is because its in the Simcity box along with SC4 Deluxe. 

Again, see the link for more.  Am I ready to move on?   Yes.  Is CXL the right one for me to move on to?  That, I am unsure of.

Best,

-Haljackey

[Follarch 326]

SimCity 4 is something that has grown into a sensation, you have to see that. SimTropolis, SC4Devotion and MANY other sites are devoted to SimCity4, and I myself will always love SimCity 4, its been the game thats given me my dream and fantasy of big metro cities, and because of all those wonderful people who took what maxis gave us and took it SO much farther, I'll always play SC4 I think. Though that still doesnt mean i WONT give CXL a try, looks quite promising with the graphics and free developing grid. I'll be getting it when it comes out and see what city i can make.

[spa 970]

These days I can't envision not playing around with SC4 and I'm fairly invested in it at this point. It's not perfect thoguht. The strict grid, not the lack of 3d, being the big downer for me. For a brief while I kind of considered the idea that CitiesXL might be that mythical replacement, but I don't think so anymore. The change in my thinking has come largely because of what I have heard about custom content. Custom content is such a key piece of my city building and I'm not that keen on investing my time into a new simulator that is tightly controlled. I'm interested in CitiesXL's potential for creating virtual worlds of interacting cities, but the monthly fee puts me off a bit. SC4 was left open and the community has really run with it. I think it could actually be the last game like it. SC4's creators never envisioned how far custom content would take things. Now that the SC4 example is out there though, it'll prove too tempting to leave unexploited. Future games will seek to profit from the fan's collective labour (seems to be the direction CitiesXL is considering) with a resulting stiffling effect. At the end of the day, I'll probably buy and play CitiesXL and it'll probably have its own rewards, but I suspect it'll remain just a game. SC4 isn't a game anymore, it's a hobby.

[Hawkeye9 0]

I have been playing sim city 4 basically since it came out. I remember first stumbling upon simtropolis, i was only a lurker then and I remeber marvaling at peoples work wondering how it was possible to create such amazing cities. I eventually joined simtropolis and I asked all those newcomer-ish questions that we all have asked when first joining (You know what im talkin about). Eventually I created my first cj and became involved in the community... that is when sim city 4 became more than just another game.

Basically my point is that sc4 has survived and will survive through the community and custom content.... If citiesxl cant provide custom content it will turn into just that average game that people forget about over the course of time. Now, will I try citiesxl? Of course I will, I dont see why i shouldn't... But will I leave and forget about sc4? Of course not, through the community, the custom content and the pure awsomeness that this game has provided... I wont be leaving sc4 for a very very long time...

[Jillybean86 38]

haljackey: The only reason SCS is still selling nowadays is because its in the Simcity box along with SC4 Deluxe.quote>

Pretty much exactly...I had to buy a new SC4 disc this week, and couldn't find it without SCS.  I doubt I will even load it on my computer.

spa: SC4 isn't a game anymore, it's a hobby.quote>

So true.  It's weird to think of as a hobby, but it kinda is.  Even though I don't make custom content like you do (love yours btw) I still spend a lot of time with it, and now that I notice, it is a hobby.  Interesting...

Hawekeye9: I was only a lurker then and I remeber marvaling at peoples work wondering how it was possible to create such amazing cities. I eventually joined simtropolis and I asked all those newcomer-ish questions that we all have asked when first joining (You know what im talkin about). Eventually I created my first cj and became involved in the community... that is when sim city 4 became more than just another game.quote>

Sounds like every member I've talked to, including me.

I am amazed at the capabilities of this game, and even though I don't personally create things for it, I highly enjoy using in my cities the end product of other people's hard work.  One can tell that the creator put their heart and soul into their creations when it's put into a city and makes people say "Wow, that is incredible! How did you DO that?"

I enjoy making my cities and believe they're beautiful creations that I'm proud of and enjoy sharing with the community.  I see it as a painter making a work of art, even if someone else mixed the paints and built the brushes (and canvas).  If Cities XL doesn't give us the ability to make our own paints, then the masterpieces we make surely won't be the same, even it the same love it put into working with it.

That being said, I'm not getting CXL right away.  I'll wait to see the opinions of people in the community that play it, and judge from them.

[masochist 111]

CXL has my attention.  I'll probably buy it as soon as it comes out...but I won't buy it as a successor or replacement for SC4, and I hope no one else purchases it with that intent.

Truth is, as dedgren said, SC4 belongs to the community.  We (they) have changed the game so much that it's taken on a life of its own, completely beyond what I imagine those at Maxis/EA envisioned.  To believe that a clean vanilla game like CXL, made by a different company on a different continent, will be able to replace at its initial release what it took SC4 five-plus years to accomplish might be akin to wondering if an apple can replace apple pie as a dessert.  There's no chance, because as good as apples are, it will never out-do an apple pie made with hours of love and care until it goes through the same process (and survives without burning out).  That's how I think of it.

I'm excited for CXL, I really am.  I think that, given the right amount of time and the same TLC that SC4 was given by its fans, it has the potential to become a worthy addition to the urban simulator genre.  But I seriously doubt anything will ever replace SC4, in the genre or as my game-of-choice.

[Moshi 61]

Back in '04 when I first bought the Deluxe edition, I played SC4 like any other game, striving for more income, more R$$$, and more skyscrapers. Upon realizing that the game could have additional content (the concept of player-created mods was new to me at that time), I began to add more and more to my cities, and began to see the point of building a city that looked good. After being deprived from SC4 for more than a year (although I did discover Civilization during that time; hard-to-understand pun intended), lurking and downloading content during that time, I started a certain city journal that some of you may remember. Through that CJ I discovered the appeal of sharing one's work with others, even if it was somewhat crude by the standards.

Currently SC4 is a hobby for me. Why? Because I always download and update my plugins, spend hours tweaking that one house, spend minutes loading the city, and plop my way through the long, long menus; because the end result is definitely not "worth" the time and effort I put in, by any orthodox measure.

In short, I like the manipulation aspect of the application, in very much like the way a model railroader likes to take months painting the scenery and sculpting the landscape. The hardcore model railroader does not care much about realistic smoke billowing from the smokestacks in his/her industrial park, but the way the buildings, the boilers, the rails are presented so that they could almost pass as a miniature, alternate version of this world, and also so that they are aesthetically pleasing to the viewer in this one.

And so in that aspect and also in actuality I am also a model railroader, carving mountains and plopping trees to get that perfect angle.

Also, SC4 persuaded me to buy a computer, and that is why you are reading this post with an avatar of a weird dude with glasses. Oh, and SC4 introduced me to the internet (sub)culture. Thank you Simtropolis!

All in all, I'll be taking SC4 with me to my grave.

Moshi

_{(disclaimer: Author may not actually take "Sim City 4 Deluxe Edition" to his grave.)}

[castironpigeon 1]

Here's another monkey wrench in the works - SC4 Tools. I just discovered DocRorlach's tool suite this morning and it makes me want to reinstall SC4 just to try it out. If it's really what I hope it is then it could be the thing that brings back many former SC4 players out of retirement. New content is awesome. The ability to organize the content already out there and streamline metagaming is even more awesome. (Nothing against the custom content creators out there! Without your work there would be no need for better organization.)

And I'm going to go out on a limb and try to state what I'm reading between the lines of the hardcore crowd -

1) Nobody's going anywhere until somebody makes a program that's better than SC4 at doing what we want it to do - simulate cities. And look good doing it.

2) Nobody's going anywhere unless that program allows nearly unrestricted modification.

3) Giving up all of the custom content already created for SC4 would be a huge loss so ideally this next generation simulator should be backward compatible with SC4 custom content.

Sounds to me like there are only two good alternatives for moving forward - EA hands over the source code for SC4 (HAH!) or somebody (probably a group of somebodies) creates an SC4 clone that can load up all the content already out there. Crazy? Probably. I can't program so I couldn't begin to guess what it would take to accomplish that task. But with all the great programmers out there who now have years of experience dealing with SC4 maybe it's not so far fetched to think that they'll eventually figure out how to recreate the simulator.

[ewd76 2]

Originally posted by: MoshiOh, and SC4 introduced me to the internet (sub)culture. quote>

You make us sounds like perverts and losers. Maybe I am just speaking for myself.

[masochist 111]

Originally posted by: ewd76

Originally posted by: Moshi Oh, and SC4 introduced me to the internet (sub)culture. quote>

You make us sounds like perverts and losers. Maybe I am just speaking for myself.quote>

Hmm...I don't get that.  There's nothing wrong or perverted about the general way you interact on the internet, which is obviously much different then the way you interact in real life.  You've got to be submerged in it before you can really learn it, and SC4 is how it happened for him.

As a matter of fact, SC4 introduced me to the internet subculture, as well; without it, I wouldn't've joined Simtropolis (the first forum I ever joined on the internet).  Simtropolis showed me how groups of people interact one post at a time, which I had never had before.  It also taught me the way things usually work on forums (no double-posting, obnoxious pictures, trolling...all of that learned on ST, and pretty much universal on serious forums).

[ewd76 2]

Originally posted by: masochist

Originally posted by: ewd76

Originally posted by: Moshi Oh, and SC4 introduced me to the internet (sub)culture. quote>

You make us sounds like perverts and losers. Maybe I am just speaking for myself.quote>

Hmm...I don't get that.  SC4 introduced me to the internet subculture, as well; without it, I wouldn't've joined Simtropolis (the first forum I ever joined on the internet).  Simtropolis showed me how groups of people interact one post at a time, which I had never had before.  It also taught me the way things usually work on forums (no double-posting, obnoxious pictures, trolling...all of that learned on ST, and pretty much universal on serious forums).quote>

Never mind, it looks like the joke won't fly.

[LE0 5]

Why dont we try to get all the 280,000 members of ST, Sc4d, Simpeg, all sc4 fansites, organize a huge petition for EA maxis to make expansion pack or give a few special modders permission to the game code, then we can do anything we want with SC4

[fivexthesecond 0]

Originally posted by: LE0 Why dont we try to get all the 280,000 members of ST, Sc4d, Simpeg, all sc4 fansites, organize a huge petition for EA maxis to make expansion pack or give a few special modders permission to the game code, then we can do anything we want with SC4quote>

That would be uh, hard. But... the petition would be even bigger if it was also spread by word and e-mail(sending e-mail links)... and various things. Who knows, if that petition actually happened it might show EA that we want something almost exactly like this game, or the source code.

[DITRO 15]

If you think about it, Sim City 5 would be the next logical step for Will Wright after he is finished with Spore. Since the Sims 3 is coming out we know he won't be going back to that for a while, so Sim City s most likely where he will brainstorm and direct his energy, and hopefully EA will let him. I'm think, like other people, that SCS was just a spin off and Sim City 5 will come out around 2011. So for the time being I'm content with Sim City 4 as a dedicated Maxis (or whatever's left of it) fan. I'll have to listen to others' reviews of CitiesXL before I consider buying it.

[bwatterud 7]

Originally posted by: fivexthesecond

Originally posted by: LE0 Why dont we try to get all the 280,000 members of ST, Sc4d, Simpeg, all sc4 fansites, organize a huge petition for EA maxis to make expansion pack or give a few special modders permission to the game code, then we can do anything we want with SC4quote>

That would be uh, hard. But... the petition would be even bigger if it was also spread by word and e-mail(sending e-mail links)... and various things. Who knows, if that petition actually happened it might show EA that we want something almost exactly like this game, or the source code.quote>

While getting a petition like that together would be admirable, and I would most certainly put my name on it, I have a feeling EA has a special filing cabinet for such requests, that looks suspiciously like a trash can.