Gaza / Israel

[Aontan 0]

Israel expected to announce end of Gaza offensive today

Sat, Jan 17, 2009

Israel plans to halt its Gaza offensive without any agreement with Hamas, a senior Israeli official said today. The Islamist group vowed to fight on.

"The goal is to announce, subject to cabinet approval, a suspension of military activities because we believe our goals have been attained," said the official, asking not to be named.

Israel launched air raids on the Gaza Strip on December 27th and ground troops moved in a week later.

Without an accord with Hamas, diplomats said they feared Israel would let only a trickle of goods through Gaza's border crossings, hampering reconstruction and creating more hardship for its 1.5 million people.

The security cabinet is due to meet in the evening and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert will address the nation after that.

"There is no agreement with Hamas," the Israeli official said, adding that Israel would reserve the right to act if Hamas continued firing or launched rockets across the border.

A Hamas official in Beirut said earlier that the militants would fight on until Israel met their demands, mainly for an end to a crippling Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip.

Israeli forces attacked 50 targets in the coastal enclave overnight. Tank fire killed two small boys sheltering at a United Nations school, a UN official said.

"These two little boys are as innocent, indisputably, as they are dead," John Ging, head of the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) in Gaza, said after the school was hit.

The Israeli army was checking the report.

In addition to declaring a unilateral ceasefire, Israeli officials said they expected Israel and Egypt to announce an agreement on increased security along the Gaza-Egyptian border.

Under that agreement, they said, the Rafah border crossing would only reopen in line with a 2005 agreement with the Palestinian Authority, which calls for President Mahmoud Abbas's forces to be in control and for Europeans to monitor traffic.

Mr Abbas left for Cairo and his aides said he would meet Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak there tomorrow morning.

In a televised address, Mr Mubarak called on Israel to end its military operations immediately and said his country would call for a meeting on post-war reconstruction.

Hamas drove Abbas's forces from Gaza in June 2007, 18 months after defeating his secular Fatah faction in a

Palestinian election. It no longer recognises him as president.

Gaza's crossings with Israel were likely to open initially only for humanitarian supplies, the Israeli officials said. Israeli leaders want to link opening the passages fully to talks over Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier held in Gaza by Hamas.

Hamas negotiators were due to meet Egyptian officials to discuss Israel's response to truce terms they have offered.

"Either we hear what we have demanded or the result will be the continuation of confrontation on the ground," Osama Hamdan, Hamas's representative in Lebanon, declared in Beirut.

Hamas has offered a one-year, renewable truce on condition that all Israeli forces leave Gaza within a week and that all the border crossings with Israel and Egypt are opened.

Since Hamas's takeover of Gaza, Israel has tightened an economic siege, allowing in mainly relief goods. Gaza's needs are vastly greater now after three weeks of destruction.

Israel appears keen to halt the Gaza offensive before Barack Obama is sworn in as US president on Tuesday, to avoid clouding a historic day for its main ally. Israelis mostly back the war, but much of the world wants the bloodshed to stop.

At least 1,201 Palestinians have been killed, including 410 children, and 5,300 wounded, Hamas health officials said.

Ten Israeli soldiers and three civilians, hit by rockets fired from Gaza, have been killed during the offensive.

Four soldiers were seriously wounded on Saturday, possibly by "friendly fire", an Israeli military spokesman said.

Mr Ging, the UNRWA chief, said Israeli tank fire killed the two brothers, aged 5 and 7, in an UNRWA school in the northern town of Beit Lahiya where they had sought refuge. Their mother, who was among 14 wounded, had her legs blown off.

"The question now being asked is: Is this and the killing of all other innocent civilians in Gaza a war crime?" Ging said.

About 45,000 Gazans fleeing battle zones are sheltering in UN-run schools in the enclave. On Jan. 6 Israeli shelling killed 42 people who had taken refuge at a UN school. An UNRWA compound was hit twice on Thursday and three staff were wounded.

Many Gazans are desperate for an end to the fighting. Hamas rocket fire has dwindled but not ceased. Seven rockets hit Israel on Saturday, causing no casualties, the army said.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, who is visiting the Middle East, again called for an end to the conflict.

© 2009 irishtimes.com

quote>

[fukuda 351]

The attack started just before Obama's investiture, interesting

[screamingman12 30]

Wow, this reminds me of the whole Russia/Georgia buisness. I wonder how they think that overthrowing a democratically elected government (yes, it is a terrorist organization, but it was elected nonetheless) will help boost their stauts in the world.

[The_Hutt 11]

"Never again", huh?

Sadly, my tax dollars are being used to subsidize this indiscriminate slaughter of Palestinian citizens.

[panthersimcity4 162]

Honestly I found the Israeli airstrikes to be appalling. 360 Palestinians? I know that Hamas may be a terrorist organization that uses civilians as a human shield but isn't there a more humane way to fight them than just killing the civilians?

[Lambert14 0]

This is a ludicrous situation. Every other country if they were being bombarded constantly with rockets from a neighboring territory would immediately attack and defend themselves from attack. Israel has asked the world repeatedly to condemn these attacks on there citizens, and yet everonye screams when israel attacks in defense. A Terrorist organization is controling the gaza strip and has refused to even recognize the existence of israel, so how should israel react? Roll over and let hamas continually bomb there cities, or wipe out a terrorist organization. If you notice, the west bank is doing well, effectively palestine has split and one group will be able to negotiate a lasting peace, while the other for its hatred will either kill every israeli or be destroyed themselves.

[U3D 6]

I really think Israel is becoming an evil, or bossy for a less harsh word, and really I wished more action was done to hold Israel responsible. I sort of understand the history behind why Israel does all these attacks and why Hamas attacks, but really the more stories I hear out of there, the more deaths I hear about, the more incredibly stupid I think the people fighting are becoming.

I wished something more was done to have Israel held accountable for it's aggressiveness.

[Micah 16]

Hamas is the real bully in all of this. They were launching rockets into Israel for no reason for days. They were provoking Israel. Israel realizes that if they don't want these rockets launching into their country everyday for the rest of their lives, that they need to cripple Hamas as much as possible. As for the citizen causilities... C'MON! Hamas hides behind these people! They cloth with the citizens so that you can't tell a difference only until the last second when they pull out a gun. However, since Israel is currently only launching fighters at Hamas targets, these citizens should have known not to be in Hamas buildings.

Look, I'm all for understanding the different sides of a situation, but how can you relate to an organization that flew rockets into another country for no reason at all except to provoke Israel? Sry, but I'm with Israel on this one. I don't support what either side does in certain situations, but Hamas is at fault here and Israel's might of force is nessecary.

You know, that's like saying the force we're using against the pirates near Somalia is too bullish. C'mon, they provoked us and you don't expect us to respond harshly back to them? You expect us to just capture a few boats and that's it? No way! That doesn't solve the problem because they'll just regroup and start pirating in a few months again. So, why not just stop the threat altogether?

Rant over.

[panthersimcity4 162]

Originally posted by: Micah As for the citizen causilities... C'MON! Hamas hides behind these people! They cloth with the citizens so that you can't tell a difference only until the last second when they pull out a gun. However, since Israel is currently only launching fighters at Hamas targets, these citizens should have known not to be in Hamas buildings.quote>

That is true, which is why I think that Israel needs to be much more careful. Just because someone might be in the wrong place at the wrong time doesn't make their life worth any less than any other casualty. In some ways though it seems that Hamas just uses civillian deaths as a way to gain sympathy for their cause.

When it comes to a conflict like this I usually just assume both sides are wrong.

[lucky7 73]

Uh,... that's a story that will never end... unfortunately. Honestly, I understand both sides: the Israeli people found a new home back in the 50ties and the Palestinian people had to give their land away. Simply spoken, the land-taking is the origin of the conflict which surely causes a lot of conflicts. On the other hand, history is well aware why settlers occupied that land- Palestinians should be aware of that, too: BUT: it truly makes no sense to occupy someones land, want to get more and try to defend it with all force- or military power available. All the plans trying to solve, or even to ease, that situation have been crushed down, by whatever party of interest. It's truly ashame that two people- and their distances have more similarities than they would obviously think, like all of us,- have that hatred. Hate, although without knowning who to really blame for, shouldn't be the motor for the rest of our lives... it's self-destroying... and that's for sure, no matter from which point of view.

lucky7

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

The fact that the Gaza isn't an Israeli parking lot shows a great deal of restraint. The Palestinians have never even fulfilled the obligations they agreed to in the Oslo accords (like ceasing attacks on Israel), which were a charade anyway. Arafat admitted that the goal was to get what they could from those talks, and then attack Israel again.

Hamas wants backing from Arab gov'ts. It's been said that the "Arabs will fight to the last Palestinian", they've lost twice before and don't want to make it thrice. If the Palestinians truly want peace, then they will stop fighting. They have broken so many truces, it's not even worth negotiating with them anymore. Even the Arab gov'ts know that the Palestinians don't abide by the agreements they make.

Those missiles, how do they keep paying for them when they can't even feed their own? They seem to have plenty of ordnance for one of the poorest groups in the world. My sympathies for the civilians, but it's going to be up to them to make their own stop attacking Israel.

If the US were absorbing these attacks from Mexico or Canada, there would be a similar reaction from the US, and civilians would die in such a situation too. The US Army marched all the way to Mexico City during the offensive to catch Pancho Villa, and he was just a criminal gangleader.

[fukuda 351]

Sadly, my tax dollars are being used to subsidize this indiscriminate slaughter of Palestinian citizens. quote>

Indiscriminate would be carpet bombing the entire area, Israeli army aims the missiles to very specific targets

I really think Israel is becoming an evil, or bossy for a less harsh word, and really I wished more action was done to hold Israel responsible.quote>

We're talking about real life here. It's Hamas that keeps sending rockets into Israel and even increases the firing rate, they want war and don't care about civilian casualties.

They ain't keen to negotiate anything with Israel, and Israel can't allow the firing of rockets aimed to them, what else can they do if Hamas is against any kind of truce?

I sincerely don't know what Hamas is expecting to occur, no one in the muslim world is going to help them.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

Those missiles, how do they keep paying for them when they can't even feed their own? quote>

Iran, naturally.

[Micah 16]

I sincerely don't know what Hamas is expecting to occur, no one in the muslim world is going to help them. quote>

Well, so far, most of the rockets that have been launched into Israel in the past weeks have been Iranian made, so that tells me that Hamas is getting help from somebody.

Uh,... that's a story that will never end... unfortunately. Honestly, I understand both sides: the Israeli people found a new home back in the 50ties and the Palestinian people had to give their land away. Simply spoken, the land-taking is the origin of the conflict which surely causes a lot of conflicts. On the other hand, history is well aware why settlers occupied that land- Palestinians should be aware of that, too: BUT: it truly makes no sense to occupy someones land, want to get more and try to defend it with all force- or military power available. All the plans trying to solve, or even to ease, that situation have been crushed down, by whatever party of interest. It's truly ashame that two people- and their distances have more similarities than they would obviously think, like all of us,- have that hatred. Hate, although without knowning who to really blame for, shouldn't be the motor for the rest of our lives... it's self-destroying... and that's for sure, no matter from which point of view. quote>

And that's actually been a large reason behind most of these conflicts in the Middle East and Africa. It was the European powers that created these borders without any consent from the people that lived there. However, in the case of Israel, they actually have a right to own their land proven in the Six Day War. Many people don't even know about that war which allowed Israel to rightfully secure and even gain land after several Muslim countries attacked Israel.

But you're right, it doesn't make sense to occupy other people's land, but after you've controlled the land for decades, you can't just give it up all of a sudden... example:

There are people in Texas who think the state should be handed back over to Mexico. Do they have a valid arguement there? Perhaps... after all, Mexico did once own this land. But you can't just hand this land over because the state and even the United States have rightfully secured this land and have protected it for decades (centuries).

How about the Native Americans? How about their land?

What will keep this going on for a very long time is that it's truly not about land. The root of the problem is the religious differences. It's sacred ground for Muslims, Jews, and Christians.

[fukuda 351]

Well, so far, most of the rockets that have been launched into Israel in the past weeks have been Iranian made, so that tells me that Hamas is getting help from somebody.quote>

I meant military help, an intervention, they're not going to win the war with Qassam rockets

[NNGG 2]

I have a question, some of you ever been under bombing? do you know how it feel to sit in the shullter and listen to the rocket fall from the sky? and this continue day after day, month after month, year after year, for 8 years. now imagine that it happen to you. how do you think your country react? do you think that the country will wait 8 years to respond?. please think about it... i know that the airstrikes in gaza hurt innocent people, and its sad. but why do you think the hammas built his bases in the populated areas? i hope that maybe i changed a little your point of view and make you think also on the other side. ** sorry about my english.

[Danlikebooks 6]

In Syria in the 70's, my parents were taught (by their Muslim teachers) that Israel was wrongfully created on Arab soil, in Arab Territory (Palestine).

I've thought about where this problem has come from, and I think I've figured it out:

Before the Jewish Diaspora, Israel was the Jewish homeland.  Then, they were enslaved (by the Babylonians, I think) and the empty land was then taken over by Arabs, now known as Palestinians.  2,500 years later, Britain decides to make Palestine an Israeli nation, Israel.  Now obviously, if you and your ancestors have been living on this land for 2,500 years, you would naturally not want to give it up.

And there's part of the problem, disregarding religious sacred grounds.  Sure it nice that Jewish people finally get their homeland back, but what about the people that were living there?  They got pushed to the side.

And so naturally, they decided to fight back.  And so all of this leads up to what is happening between Israel and the Gaza Strip.

I'm not sure where to side on this, but I'm leaning towards Gaza.  Sure, they started the whole thing, but its just part of their struggle to get their homeland back.  If you were kicked out of your house by some greater force and then someone else moved in, you would want to fight back too, wouldn't you?

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[mindaugas 18]

Do you think America would allow even one missile from Cuba without a prompt military response? I don't think this is a delicate issue at all, Isreal was not launching rockets indiscriminately and killing innocent civilians.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[gml_josea 2]

I don't get why the West countries are getting so sensitive about this, it has been the same story for decades, and it has been proven that no matter what the hell world leaders say, these guys will keep nuking each other until either ceases to exist. It's a conflict without any solution but completely destroying one side, in fact, West countries shouldn't care about this, World wars usually begin when an aggresive situation begins and everyone starts taking a side (Although I doubt this conflict would spark any major war)

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa  It seems no one (particularly in the US, and I am American, so keep the BS to minimum) wants to recognize that Israel is occupying territory internationally recognized as not belonging to them.  quote>

But, the international community (UN) gave it to them. Some disagree with it, but it isn't going to change. The current state of Israel was an international creation.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[TheSixCents 0]

Originally posted by: manticorefan The fact that the Gaza isn't an Israeli parking lot shows a great deal of restraint. The Palestinians have never even fulfilled the obligations they agreed to in the Oslo accords (like ceasing attacks on Israel), which were a charade anyway. Arafat admitted that the goal was to get what they could from those talks, and then attack Israel again.

Hamas wants backing from Arab gov'ts. It's been said that the "Arabs will fight to the last Palestinian", they've lost twice before and don't want to make it thrice. If the Palestinians truly want peace, then they will stop fighting. They have broken so many truces, it's not even worth negotiating with them anymore. Even the Arab gov'ts know that the Palestinians don't abide by the agreements they make.

Those missiles, how do they keep paying for them when they can't even feed their own? They seem to have plenty of ordnance for one of the poorest groups in the world. My sympathies for the civilians, but it's going to be up to them to make their own stop attacking Israel.

If the US were absorbing these attacks from Mexico or Canada, there would be a similar reaction from the US, and civilians would die in such a situation too. The US Army marched all the way to Mexico City during the offensive to catch Pancho Villa, and he was just a criminal gangleader.quote>

The living conditions in Gaza are horrid. Israel does not even let in supplies. It is only natural to fight back. The fact that the West thinks the Jews are entitled to Palestine is insane. If Israel wants to continue to exist it needs to allow independence and total self-rule for Gaza, the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and everything else seized in Israel's various wars with the surrounding countries since 48'.

[Micah 16]

First off, talk about the topic and not each other. I see how this thread is only on the first page and is already getting out-of-hand.

The Palestinians have suffered under Israeli occupation for decades. quote>

Yeah, but what caused them to launch all of those rockets during the past few weeks when Israel wasn't doing anything at all during that time? Imo, it was to provoke Israel and to possibly even affect the Israeli elections which are only a few months away.

Israel dismantles settlementsquote>

Israel already did that a few years ago with the promise of peace from the other countries. Hrmph.

Yet Israel attacks with precision and they also kill civilians. quote>

Like I said, Hamas lives within the citizens. They hide behind the innocent.

I think this will probably be my last post in this thread because this conflict will go on for a long time, I've already discussed this too many times before, and I understand where both Gaza and Israel are coming from. They just want their scared land. That's it. Personally, I applaud Israel so far because they have been sending food, medicine, and other supplies into Gaza and because I think Israel has every right to fight back. End of story for me at least.

The Israelis and Palestinians should really be fighting the international community for creating this problem in the first place instead of each other. jk

Edit: *sacred. My bad. haha

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: TheSixCents

. If Israel wants to continue to exist it needs to allow independence and total self-rule for Gaza, the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and everything else seized in Israel's various wars with the surrounding countries since 48'.

quote>

Those 'various wars' were started by the Arabs. Remember?

The goal of the Oslo accords was an independent state, they couldn't stop the terrorism long enough to even look like they wanted peace by living up to what they agreed to.

The land gained after successfully repelling Arab attacks in '67 belongs to Israel, IMO. Losing that territory was the price Arab powers paid for starting a war. The Golan Heights were found to have oil a few years back, Israel would be foolish to give it back. They were attacked first, they took the spoils of victory. That's how it works.

The Palestinians' 'horrid' situation is self-created by constant terrorism against Israel, as we are seeing unfold even now. As soon as the borders open, they go right back to it, then the borders close again. The lives of their children don't seem to be important enough to them to just stop. If this were an American problem, their entire existence would have been annihilated by now.

We have watched this go round and round like this for decades. One would think the Palestinians would be sick of it by now, but still the missiles keep flying. Iran uses them as an expendable proxy (because Iran doesn't have the cajones to start anything openly) yet they still cozy up to their Ayatollah puppetmasters. It makes one think that self-destruction is a national mindset in the Palestinian territories..

It's hard to rebuild anything with explosives in your hand.

[thepokemaniac 18]

Being a Palestinian, you might call me bias, but here is my opinion. I am just so sick of what Israel is doing in the West Bank and in Gaza to all Palestinians. It is disgusting. The media here is so bias toward Israel that they say stuff like, "Over 360 Palestinians killed in Israeli rocket attacks, oh BUT they are doing that because the Palestinians in Gaza are firing small rockets at them too" Need I remind everyone that most of these Palestinian rockets are HOME MADE. The only directed in the general direction of Israel. To me, I think it is sad to see Israel act with such disrespect toward the Palestinian occupied territories. Seriously, why would they bomb innocent civilians in Gaza, a region surrounded by a huge wall, while the civilians watch the planes and think, "Oh please! I hope I won't get hurt this time!" Anyway, that's all I've got to say.

[TheSixCents 0]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

Originally posted by: TheSixCents

. If Israel wants to continue to exist it needs to allow independence and total self-rule for Gaza, the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and everything else seized in Israel's various wars with the surrounding countries since 48'.

quote>

Those 'various wars' were started by the Arabs. Remember?

The goal of the Oslo accords was an independent state, they couldn't stop the terrorism long enough to even look like they wanted peace by living up to what they agreed to.

The land gained after successfully repelling Arab attacks in '67 belongs to Israel, IMO. Losing that territory was the price Arab powers paid for starting a war. The Golan Heights were found to have oil a few years back, Israel would be foolish to give it back. They were attacked first, they took the spoils of victory. That's how it works.

The Palestinians' 'horrid' situation is self-created by constant terrorism against Israel, as we are seeing unfold even now. As soon as the borders open, they go right back to it, then the borders close again. The lives of their children don't seem to be important enough to them to just stop. If this were an American problem, their entire existence would have been annihilated by now.

We have watched this go round and round like this for decades. One would think the Palestinians would be sick of it by now, but still the missiles keep flying. Iran uses them as an expendable proxy (because Iran doesn't have the cajones to start anything openly) yet they still cozy up to their Ayatollah puppetmasters. It makes one think that self-destruction is a national mindset in the Palestinian territories..

It's hard to rebuild anything with explosives in your hand.quote>

Zionist Israel was forced upon Palestine.

I am not at all an anti-semite. But, I am sincerley anti-zionist.

[Yoman3 5]

Just saying from a tactical standpoint as Fukuda said, if Isreal's goal was to indiscriminately kill as many Palestinians as possible, wouldn't it make alot more sense to use cheap iron carpet bombs with a larger blast radius than more expensive guided GBU-39 Small diameter bombs?

[nazaguy 0]

Just for the record, Arabs have not started all the wars, its been about 50/50. The ones i know of are the 1948 war (Arab started), Suez war (Israeli started), 1967 war (Israeli started) and the Yom Kippur war (Arab started). Its a common mistake to think that the Arabs have been the main agressors in all wars. And theirs a reason the Palestinians rejected the UNs proposal for 2 states. To look at the whole Arab-Israeli thing, you just have to look at the history behind it all.