Gaza / Israel

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: nazaguy  1967 war (Israeli started) quote>

 

Only if you don't count Syrian cross-border raids, the diversion of 11% of Israel's water supply, and Syrian shelling of cities in Galilee from the Golan as 'acts of war'.

The Soviets helped provoke it by feeding Arab states false information, also. Egypt sent troops and artillery to Jordan specifically to provoke a response. The 1967 war was not as simple as saying 'Israel started it'.

[Lambert14 0]

Originally posted by: Danlikebooks In Syria in the 70's, my parents were taught (by their Muslim teachers) that Israel was wrongfully created on Arab soil, in Arab Territory (Palestine).

I've thought about where this problem has come from, and I think I've figured it out:

Before the Jewish Diaspora, Israel was the Jewish homeland.  Then, they were enslaved (by the Babylonians, I think) and the empty land was then taken over by Arabs, now known as Palestinians.  2,500 years later, Britain decides to make Palestine an Israeli nation, Israel.  Now obviously, if you and your ancestors have been living on this land for 2,500 years, you would naturally not want to give it up.

And there's part of the problem, disregarding religious sacred grounds.  Sure it nice that Jewish people finally get their homeland back, but what about the people that were living there?  They got pushed to the side.

And so naturally, they decided to fight back.  And so all of this leads up to what is happening between Israel and the Gaza Strip.

I'm not sure where to side on this, but I'm leaning towards Gaza.  Sure, they started the whole thing, but its just part of their struggle to get their homeland back.  If you were kicked out of your house by some greater force and then someone else moved in, you would want to fight back too, wouldn't you?quote>

If you look at the original UN charter for the state of israel, palestine was pretty evenly distributed with jerusalem divided up. After the 1967 war when the arab nations attacked israel, including all the palestinians, israel fought back and won large amounts of territory including the west bank, gaza and sinai. Israel made treaties for peace with egypt and a few others by giving back land they took. The current areas of palestine were israeli settlements a few years ago. The israeli government made a truce with the palestinians and gave back some of the land and forcefully removed the israeli settlers. The palestinian people in the west bank are not suffering, only the ones in hamas controlled gaza are. Hamas is a cruel and inhumane group that hides behind civilians, kills there own people if they dissagree, and instead of taking care of the people in there territory, spend there resources on rockets to attack israel. This is a group of people whos sole purpose and drive is hate. Every teaty they have been part of they broke. Why shouldnt they be forcefully removed and the territory of gaza given back to the rightful government in the west bank? Also, if you look at the original agreements, parts of the neighboring arab nations were to be given to the palestinians, such as territory from syria and lebanon, none of this was ever given to them, even though it was a greed upon. Furthermore, these people calling for protection on there arab brothers treat them terribly. They are forced into these narow pieces of land because the neighboring arab "brothers" will not grant citizenship status to them. Egypt even has the border sealed off to Gaza most of the time because they see the danger of hamas and what terrorism can do to there country.

[Yoman3 5]

In the 1967 war the IAF conducted preemptive strikes on Arab air forces in order to gain the upper hand in the coming war, its not secret that Egypt and Syria were preparing an invasion. The only reason the IAF didn't do such a thing in 1973 was that Henry Kissinger told them they wouldn't get so much as a nail if they did.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa to recognize that Israel is occupying territory internationally recognized as not belonging to them.  The Palestinians have suffered under Israeli occupation for decades.quote>

Could we leave "occupation" out of it? I find it highly unlikely that Hamas is reaching out to brothers and sisters in the remaining occupied areas on the Fatah-run West Bank, especially after they started killing each other after the election. Gaza has been under Palestinian control since 1994, and Israel pulled completely out from all military and settlement areas in 2005. Israel do retain some power over customs and taxes for example—wether they have been worse off under this regime than they would have been under Arafat mismanagement, is not easy to say.

I do not dispute the fact that Israel is occupying some land since 1967, but the area in question is not.

I do know that Obama has stated the Palestinians deserve a contiguous homeland.  The only way this will be accomplished is for Israel to move to the dovish side and give up land they have stolen, allowing a corridor between the two regions.  However, they must get some balls to deal with the Ultra-Orthodox.quote>

Don't worry about the ultra-orthodox jews; similarly to Hamas, they don't recognise Israel. I believe a separate, access-controlled road has been proposed before, though the military seems to do their share of obstructing an effective West Bank-Gaza border situation.

Originally posted by: TheSixCents The living conditions in Gaza are horrid.quote>

True.

Israel does not even let in supplies.quote>

Not true, though the number of supplies has of course fallen dramatically now that there's a war going on. If I'm not entirely incorrect, Gaza still shares a border with its former protector Egypt, which is even less interested in what's going on there, as long as the Palestinians are contained.

The fact that the West thinks the Jews are entitled to Palestine is insane.quote>

Well, I'll give you that, but come on, there're all sorts of crazy state formations out there. What about the United States of America? Eritrea? Or Ireland? Some think Tibet should be an independent country, others do not. If I'm not too ill-informed, there is the Qu

[GMT 389]

to add my 2 cents

israel was founded on palestine land. alright. because history told us that is the land they deserve.

we all remember, the billion years old theater whether this land is palestine or israel can be brought down to hadrian who is said to have fought a jewish riot back and to make all jewish roots vanish by calling the land Palestine. remaining jews fled.

then in 1882 the jews went back to where they came from because of anti-semitic tendencies all over the world. at this time, Theodor Herzl was the first one to have the vision of a jewish state.

1887 he called for a zionist-congress in Switzerland (note: zionism came afterwards!).

early zionists even wanted to make an agreement with the arabs that have settled in the holy (originally jewish!) land for about 2000 years. guess what, arabs refused.

then WW1 came and GB was among the winners and the Dafour-Declaration called for a jewish state to give a homeland to the jews to "come home to"... at the location where the historic (pre-roman as in pre-hadrian) jewish state was, which includes parts of todays Jordan).

1937 was the first plan to devide Palestine, again refused by the arabs.

Then came world-famous WW2 and on Nov. 29th 1947 the UN  plenum that declared a jewish state for survivors of the Shoa, or in other words, the division of palestine, of course, once again refused by the arabs who now considered it a provocation to have jews on their land (this said, I want to add that the Quaran (or better Sharia) has strict rules about how to treat jews) but the UN was stronger and one year later (and some fights) we had the real foundation of Israel.

On land, that before the roman emperor Hadrian came and enslaved whatever crossed his humble feet, belonged to the jews. The summit of the contemporary history is the six day war.

and now we have the everlasting fight between Hamas and Israel.

And whenever Israel starts to defend itself against Hamas, the Unecessary Union that once wantd a land for the jews, starts to bi... about how bad it is that Israel fights back after getting sprayed by rockets.

FACT is that it's the Hamas (with it' cleary anti-semitic charta) either broke every truce or were the once to start fireing again.

funfact: as soon as Israel strikes back, Hamas was the one to come offering a new truce (like they need one to reorganice their stuff)

and as for the poor palestine civilians... ok, civilian casualties are always bad.

but ask yourself how many of these civilians silently or obviously supported those terrorists.

and take into account that, back when the deathtoll of the airraids was about 300, only 50 civilian casualties where reported, or in other words, 250 non-civilian (as in Hamas I guess) deaths were to add to the unfortunately infinite list of casualties "over there"

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Quite simply == a plague on both their houses.

Israel is justified in mobilizing on the border to stop Hamas from fireing rockets at them.  Hamas is a terrorist organization that has effectivel seized power in Gaza, so is really an illegal or renegade power.

I think a general embargo on war materiel should be strictly enforced on Hamas.  Both sides need to be dragged, kicking and screaming if need be, to the treaty table.

They have been at this since 1948 foot, horse and marines.  I for one, and sick to death of this whole mess.

These people are all showing a lack of reposibility.  One of the oldest nation on earth cannot get along with its neighbors, but then, they never did.

I hate civil wars.  These people, if you believe the scriptures, are siblings.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Good to see you around, N_O!

I heard today that Israel is letting humanitarian aid through, but Hamas is seizing it and hoarding it. The suspected motive is once again to blame Israel. Also, the 'top leader' who was just killed, Rayan, sent his own 22 year old son out as a suicide bomber in 2001. I guess they would call that kismet.

[GMT 389]

here we go

breaking news on CNN:

Israeli ground forces move into Gaza

[TheQuiltedLlama 34]

From the BBC

Israeli troops 'move into Gaza'

Israeli forces move towards the Gaza Strip

Israeli ground troops have started to enter the Gaza Strip, Israeli military officials have confirmed, a week after the offensive against Hamas began.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said the intention was to take control of areas from which Palestinian militants have been firing rockets into Israel.

A BBC reporter in Gaza says it appears to be a limited operation with 10 to 15 vehicles crossing the northern border.

Earlier, Israel intensified air and artillery attacks on the territory.

In one raid, at least 13 people were killed when a missile struck a crowded mosque in Beit Lahiya, Palestinian medics said.

Witnesses said more than 200 people had been inside the Ibrahim al-Maqadna mosque for evening prayers when it was struck.

If you commit the stupidity of launching a ground offensive then a black destiny awaits you Khalid Meshaal Political leader of Hamas UK protests over Gaza air strikes Aid worker diary: Part six Gaza voices: Family fears In pictures: Assault intensifies

Correspondents say Israel has accused Hamas of using mosques to hide weapons and ammunition, but this is the first time a mosque has been hit at prayer time.

Militants in Gaza meanwhile fired more rockets into southern Israel on Saturday, one of which hit the port of Ashdod, injuring two people.

Israel has carried out more than 800 strikes on the Gaza Strip since launching the offensive eight days ago, including 40 on Saturday.

The UN has warned of a worsening humanitarian crisis, and believes 25% of more than 400 Palestinians killed by Israel so far were civilians. Israel says about 80% of those killed were Hamas militants. Four Israelis have been killed by rocket fire from Gaza.

'Not war-hungry'

A small column of Israeli military vehicles, backed by attack helicopters, were seen crossing the border into the northern Gaza Strip on Saturday evening.

Hamas leaders have warned Israel against launching a ground offensive

An Israeli military spokeswoman confirmed the incursion had begun and said the objective was "to destroy the Hamas terror infrastructure in the area of operations".

"We are going to take some of the launch areas used by Hamas," Maj Avital Leibovitch told reporters.

Later, Defence Minister Ehud Barak said the ground campaign against Hamas "will not be easy or short, but we are determined".

"Our aim is to force Hamas to stop its hostile activities against Israel and Israelis from Gaza, and to bring about a significant change in the situation in the southern part of Israel," he told a news conference.

"We have carefully weighed all our operations. We are not war-hungry, but we shall not allow a situation in which our towns, villages and civilians are constantly targeted by Hamas."

Mr Barak also said Israel would "keep a sensitive eye" on its northern border with Lebanon, where it fought a short but bloody war with the Shia Hezbollah movement in 2006.

"We hope the situation will remain calm. Nevertheless, we are ready and alert to face any unwanted development in that area," he added.

Map: Gaza and Israel violence

The BBC's Paul Wood in Jerusalem says this is probably just the first wave of the assault, since there are said to be some 10,000 Israeli troops and hundreds of tanks massed on the border with Gaza.

The office of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has also announced that the government has ordered the urgent call-up of "tens of thousands" of extra military reservists.

Just before the ground offensive began, Hamas issued a statement promising that Palestinian children would be picking over the ruins of Israeli tanks and the body parts of Israeli soldiers.

The militant group's exiled political leader, Khaled Meshaal, meanwhile warned Israel against a ground offensive, saying that a "black destiny" awaited Israeli forces if the entered Gaza.

"We will not break, we will not surrender or give in to your conditions," he said in a speech from the Syrian capital, Damascus.

Our correspondent says this promises to be a very bloody encounter.

Ceasefire calls

Tens of thousands of demonstrators meanwhile have been protesting worldwide against Israel's military operations in Gaza, calling for an immediate ceasefire.

Organisers of the London protest said it was "just the start of the campaign"

The biggest rally was in Paris where more than 20,000 people gathered.

About 10,000 people joined a rally in London, during which hundreds of shoes were thrown at the entrance to Prime Minister Gordon Brown's residence, echoing the protest of an Iraqi journalist who threw his shoes at US President George W Bush last month.

Protests also took place in Brussels, The Hague, Amsterdam, Ankara and Cyprus.

In Israel itself, tens of thousands of Israeli Arabs staged a protest against Israel's actions in the town of Sakhnin. One politician, Jamal Zahalka, said it had been the biggest demonstration by Israel's Arab minority in the past 10 years.

President Bush, however, blamed the violence firmly on Hamas.

quote>

[toxicpiano 125]

This may sound ridiculous but I imagine there will be less civilian casualties with a ground offensive

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: TheQuiltedLlama

The militant group's exiled political leader, Khaled Meshaal, meanwhile warned Israel against a ground offensive, saying that a "black destiny" awaited Israeli forces if the entered Gaza.

"We will not break, we will not surrender or give in to your conditions," he said in a speech from the Syrian capital, Damascus.

quote>

 

Of course, he says this from the relative safety of Syria... who is obviously harboring a terrorist. My bet is, he's got a lot of company there in his distant little foxhole, while he watches on Al Jazeera.

[hamsterTK 93]

This may sound ridiculous but I imagine there will be less civilian casualties with a ground offensive quote>

That's what I was thinking.

I think limiting collateral damage and forcing the enemy to come out from behind their human shields is a better winning strategy against Hamas. I agree with the people who think that Israeli bombing and heavy-handed action is in itself helping Hamas get what it wants

[Micah 16]

^

So it's pretty much a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

[Odainsaker 2,135]

Gee, and I was discussing with someone whether it would be most effective if any ground offensive would first bisect the Gaza Strip, sealing off Gaza City into a surrounded pocket and adding another barrier to supplies smuggled in from the Gazan border with Egypt. Sure enough, that seems to be the strategy.

What is telling was that in the previous days, Israel offered that international monitors stationed into Gaza would be needed for any cease-fire. Uh, how many countries and peace activists offered themselves for that role? Protesting is certainly easier (and safer) than actual monitoring, and protesting against Israel even more convenient than protesting against the original Hamas coup againt Fatah and subsequent rain of rocket attacks from a territory Israel had originally let go. Hamas and its kin have sold the Palestinian people on the idea that they can win all or nothing, and that plays fine to their Syrian and Iranian backers waging war by proxy. Nope, can't let up on Israel no matter what peace plans are tried, because without an immediate enemy of convenience, it becomes harder for some entrenched regimes and proxy organizations aspiring to power to justify their own domestic terror against their own people.

Still, I think Israel really is damned if they do, damned if they don't, and there really is no solution for them on their own. Better to remove Israeli forces from the equation by putting American, European, Russian, and *gosh* even Chinese troops into the Gaza to disarm Hamas and enforce peace, for which any terrorist violence prodded by Syria and Iran will cause enough repercusions that peace will come swift. Radical militants won't be able to resist such tempting targets, foolishly unleashing the hammer upon themselves and their puppetmasters. Of course, this will never happen, leaving Israel once againg with the unhappy choice of overwhelming offensive defense or complete vulnerability and exposure to militant radicals actively seeking its extermination and openly killing its citizens. It is not a hard choice for Israel, and the earlier Gazan Withdrawl followed by a radical Hamas takeover and thousands of rocket attacks is certainly underscoring now for Israel the folly of land-for-peace when it is surrounded by enemies fighting a war by proxy.

Of course, I don't think Israel can win this whatever their military strategy, and worse is to ask what happens afterward.  Reoccupation and apartheid encagement of Gaza?  Post-battle withdrawl from Gaza leaving it an even more incensed radical hotbed and vendetta launchpad?  Reconstruction managed by who?  Soooo...about those international peacekeeping forces again...any takers?

[jack11 0]

Glad to see they are in the process of taking the gloves off. To anyone who thinks this isn't a good idea...

Imagine yourself, just imagine, I'm not saying INSTILL yourself with fear, living in Israel. Now, there are Rockets, car bombings, crazy people shooting up places full of innocent people who didn't do a darned thing, and many other terrorist activities. How could anyone be so naive do deny Israel fight back? When someone is launching TERRORIST ATTACKS in your backyard, you might know how it feels. Such as when the sirens go off over there everyone has to RUN into a house go into the bomb proof basement (imagine yourself having one of those to keep alive) so that they can at least have a defense against them. Yeah, the UN hasn't done JACK. The UN is one reason we are friggin' in Iraq... but I'm not going off-topic with that discussion. I just can't believe this. The only way to keep peace, is to destroy evil. If you wave the white flag and go all "we just want peace man, lets smoke a bong" the enemy will laugh you in the face and shoot you dead. God forbid a country that has been under attack for a few decades defend itself

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: jack11

The only way to keep peace, is to destroy evil. quote>

 

There are differing points of view as to what is "evil" in this situation.

 

Originally posted by: Danlikebooks

 . .  and the empty land was then taken over by Arabs, now known as Palestinians. quote>

 

 

Time was, not that long ago, that the American media did not use the word "Palestinian".   The word that was used was "Arabs".   Looking back, it seems to have been a subtle way of saying that there was no such thing as a "Palestinian".

 

It wasn't that long ago.  When Clinton was President, there was some sort of kumbaya camp attended by Jewish children and "Arab" children.    It was during a replay of that event that I realized that no one here said "Palestinian" back then and now we do.

 

It may seem like a subtle thing but I think there is a huge difference between not acknowledging that a group of people exists and acknowledging that they do.

 

 

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: jack11 Glad to see they are in the process of taking the gloves off. To anyone who thinks this isn't a good idea...

Imagine yourself, just imagine, I'm not saying INSTILL yourself with fear, living in Israel. Now, there are Rockets, car bombings, crazy people shooting up places full of innocent people who didn't do a darned thing, and many other terrorist activities.quote>

Really? I've heard a lot about rockets being fired from the Gaza Strip, but also that other terrorist activeties that requires the attackers to be on Israeli soild have fallen. In 2005, 55 people died from suicide bombings alone¹—the total death toll due to terrorism in 2008 was 36, with one suicide bombing being conducted, as in 2007. 13 were killed in 2007².

Yeah, the UN hasn't done JACK. The UN is one reason we are friggin' in Iraq... but I'm not going off-topic with that discussion. I just can't believe this. The only way to keep peace, is to destroy evil. If you wave the white flag and go all "we just want peace man, lets smoke a bong" the enemy will laugh you in the face and shoot you dead. God forbid a country that has been under attack for a few decades defend itselfquote>

 

What exactly do you want the UN to do? They can't do anything, since their members don't want it to do anything.

1) Terrorism Review 2005, Prime Minister's office: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-%20Obstacle%20to%20Peace/Terrorism%20and%20Islamic%20Fundamentalism-/2005%20Terrorism%20Review.htm

2) Haaretz, Shin Bet figures: http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052037.html

[jack11 0]

I meant that.. the UN doesn't do anything. They're neutral in everything, except for giving sanctions, which, lets just put it this way, it's like giving a speeding ticket or a parking ticket to someone who doesn't care and wont pay it. Also, I meant that Israel ISN'T the bad guys, they're the good guys, being bombarded with mortar fire. Apologies if it didn't sound that way haha.

[fukuda 351]

Wars are not heroic fights between good and evil. The human mind tends to oversimplify things to work, it's easier to hate and kill someone if he is the "bad" guy after all.

[jack11 0]

That might be true. But the bottom line being, people are dying and if they wont do something about it.. then more will. They can't just keep letting them launch mortars and do other terrorist attacks in Israel. You can't just sit there, like the U.S. did for too long. You will get one major one and then you do something about it.. like we did. Israel needs to take the gloves off. It's easier to hate someone who has killed your family members or your friends and to name them the bad guy if they are. If they actually DO SOMETHING about it then first of all, they might think twice, second, get rid of them, and you've got peace.

Then on the other hand, it might just take a little while. Iran needs to kill off some of their population in the name of Allah before this war will be over..

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052894.html

[Mastermonkey12 0]

Why cant we all just get along, sit in a circle, and sing kumbaya?

[Shingure 56]

Originally posted by: Mastermonkey12 Why cant we all just get along, sit in a circle, and sing kumbaya?quote>

 

Almost impossible

The world is slowly dividing more and more and so are people when it comes to their mindset.

It would take something bad to happen or even the deaths of millions for the message to get across and even then we will have people who will think otherwise. The answer to that question is No.

[fukuda 351]

You can't just sit there, like the U.S. did for too long. You will get one major one and then you do something about it.. like we did.quote>

I'm not a huge fan of "preventive" attacks, they are easy means of manipulation... and don't forget that this campaign is not preventive at all, it's a response to hostile fire and truce breaking.

It's easier to hate someone who has killed your family members or your friends and to name them the bad guy if they are.quote>

Yes, but they are a minority.

By the way, mortar fire is non self-propelled light artillery fire while Qassam rockets are perfectly self-propelled

[jack11 0]

I don't think that'd ever happen. However, you could probably get a group together of deranged thinking, trapped in the 60's hippies to do that.. I find it funny, people who think we could all get along. Now, I hate war, everything about it, but I know it has to happen. I hate the fact that we can't get along, but I realize it's a repercussion of not living in a perfect world (regardless if you believe in God or not..)

[jack11 0]

Originally posted by: fukuda

You can't just sit there, like the U.S. did for too long. You will get one major one and then you do something about it.. like we did.quote>

I'm not a huge fan of "preventive" attacks, they are easy means of manipulation... and don't forget that this campaign is not preventive at all, it's a response to hostile fire and truce breaking.

It's easier to hate someone who has killed your family members or your friends and to name them the bad guy if they are.quote>

Yes, but they are a minority.

By the way, mortar fire is non self-propelled light artillery fire while Qassam rockets are perfectly self-propelledquote>

What are you saying? You don't want other people who will eventually kill you to be killed, and if you don't kill them, you are fine with them killing you? That's what a preventive attack is.

Even IF mortar fire is "non self-propelled" it takes someone to put the mortar in, and it takes a life and or cause property damage to an innocent person, who didn't do anything, regardless.

[fukuda 351]

What are you saying? You don't want other people who will eventually kill you to be killed, and if you don't kill them, you are fine with them killing you? That's what a preventive attack is.quote>

We do have a magical tool to distinguish people who is going to attack you? no. Even intelligence reports are flawed and highly manipulated, we're not talking about chess game here, but about the lives of hundreds to thousands of people, including innocents. Such a decision can't be taken lightly.

Even IF mortar fire is "non self-propelled" it takes someone to put the mortar in, and it takes a life and or cause property damage to an innocent person, who didn't do anything, regardless.quote>

? I was just pointing out that Qassam rockets ain't mortar, nothing more

[Mastermonkey12 0]

The human mind is too unique to adapt to getting along. But than, if we all did get along, the world wouldnt be all that exciting, now would it?

[jack11 0]

Originally posted by: Mastermonkey12 The human mind is too unique to adapt to getting along. But than, if we all did get along, the world wouldnt be all that exciting, now would it? quote>

Hey, you got a point there MasterMonkey!

[hamsterTK 93]

Unfortunately there is evidence that Hamas has been provided more advanced rockets and training by Iran or Al Qaeda. Where do you think those Katyushas came from?

Unfortunately there is also evidence from the UN Human Rights Watch org that the IDF is screwing around, killing civilians and occupying houses. Never mind any shelling even with precise missiles is gonna send shrapnel and concrete everywhere in a densely populated area.

Odainsaker is probably right. The only that would work that also will never happen is for a third party to break things up using force.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: Mastermonkey12 The human mind is too unique to adapt to getting along. But than, if we all did get along, the world wouldnt be all that exciting, now would it? quote>

'Getting along' as a philosophy fails, because there's always an Al Qaeda, Hamas, or Ahmedinajad (or even a Hitler) waiting to pounce. It fails to take into account the other guy, who sees no wisdom or gain in getting along. It fails because the other guy might just be a neighbor who wants your stuff, and is waiting for an opportunity to get it. The other guy might be a psychotic off his meds, or a disgruntled type with an axe to grind.

'Just getting along' is the ultimate in head-in-the-sand cop-out for those afraid to confront the dangers of real life, and how those situations don't depend on your POV in order to be dangerous.