NAM General Discussion Thread

[Tropod 144]

Ok, I think I have finally decided on what to change/modify the ANT to, if no one has any real big objections.

After some experimenting with trying to do a Bi-Directional Network [for those that don't know what I mean by Bi-Directional; all/any lanes of the same network can/would be used for both directions of Traffic; morning/evening], I've come to realise that doing this would take just wwaayy to long to do, least for my own liking anyhow [there's also some other factors].

 

So, here is some preliminary pics of what I am intending on doing;

[pics hosted-off site]

 

 

 

 

Please realise that all this is at the moment is changing the look of the network in question [i would like to centre it on the tile]. The functional aspect of it will be done after once a few things are worked out [so please, don't ask about it's functional aspect, yet]. So for this reason, I am going to have to urge people to avoid using the ANT network if they can, as big chances are next time the ANT network itself gets updated, it may have an impact [but that's no guarantee].

What I plan to do with this though [just so people know]; I would like to change a few aspects of the ANT network; one of these would be to allow ANT to GroundHighway Conversion. Also, change [possibly remove] some of the intersection types that exist for the network, and perhaps put in their place [& possibly add] some overpasses/junctions for the ANT network. These are just some things I'd like to do with it, but this assumes I don't come across any limitations/problems though, so for this reason there's no guarantee they'll be implemented [i'll have to see how I go with it].

[the7trumpets 10]

Oooh, Oooh, am I allowed to help???

 

I'm currently investigating your exemplars to see what process you're going through to do these things.  I've done much of this before, but there are many different ways to build a bridge

 

In any case, I'll try to get caught up on what you're doing and then lend a hand...I just spent a couple hours finalizing a nice avatar which fits in with the site's new look (eeeesh, I've been gone too long).

 

Anyway, if an old dog can help out with the new tricks, I'd love to join you in this tropod.

[woodb3kmaster 342]

(Excited gasp) The legend returns ... ?

Anyway, I'd like to add my few interchange requests here, since I can't find any other appropriate thread to add them. If someone's willing to ackle these in the BAT, etc., I'd like ortho/diagonal highway interchanges, both with surface network types (roads/avenues/one-way roads) and other highways. Here's a diagram to explain (hosted off-site):

[redlotus 16]

Hey, 7.  Good to see ya again, old-timer.

 

Woodb3k:  The bottom right picture (diag highway/orth highway) is currently being worked on.  It's kind of a long process, but I hope to have at least one direction (NW-SE over East-West) completed before the end of the month.  I should be able to get some pics up in the next week or so.

 

Tropod:  If you're planning on using the highway texture anyway, what about making the outside 2 lanes normal and then make the inside lane bidirectional.  Once all of the path files are done, maybe we can talk someone who's good at texturing into creating a new texture for a center turn-lane type road.  Just a thought.

 

-red

[kassarc16 4]

*bows* I am humbled by the return of the king.

 

This is very interesting to watch the progress. With 7 jumping in, It'll only get better.

[pekeboo01 3]

Welcome back 7trumpets. Nice to see you here again.

[clindhartsen 5]

First of all, Welcome back 7Trumpets and Homestar Runner ! Hope everything in reality is going well!

Second, if possible, how many textures are actuall required to make the network textured and would it be possible if we are making a highway like network to possibly give the edges a reality style like blending off with the ground or something just for an idea! Maybe giving it an asfault type of look! Thankz if anyone consiters this and I am glad I got my two cents in!

Great decision and design Tropod, I hope it all works!

Christopher Lindhartsen

[Tropod 144]

Date:5/13/2004 6:29:27 PM
Author:the7trumpets

Oooh, Oooh, am I allowed to help???

 

I'm currently investigating your exemplars to see what process you're going through to do these things.  I've done much of this before, but there are many different ways to build a bridge

 

In any case, I'll try to get caught up on what you're doing and then lend a hand...I just spent a couple hours finalizing a nice avatar which fits in with the site's new look (eeeesh, I've been gone too long).

 

Anyway, if an old dog can help out with the new tricks, I'd love to join you in this tropod.

quote>

   .................could it be?.........man, I would be honoured if you were to help in any way. Granted I've accomplished quite a bit [even by my own standards], but it's because of a lot of your work that some of this is even possible .

 

I think where the most help is needed, least for now, is the Texturing department. I have had an attempt at trying to make some textures myself, but I basically suck at it; I tend to use/replicate the games own files where I possibly can [for a number of reasons]. So if people could make/create textures of Intersections, that would be great!!

These Textures [for intersections] would have to use the same/similar look as the one below [like the Textures where it says 'ANT network'] & be centred on the tile.

Right now, textures for the following would be good/needed:

'+' 'X' [for both of these, it's an intersection of the same network type].

 

 

redlotus; good idea. Though, I was thinking about getting the texturing part done first perhaps [or just some of the main parts]? Then worry about the finer details of the Paths later for stuff like that, since that aspect might be a bit more daunting to do [*looks at the7trumpets*].

 

Just to add; anything that involves having to use S3D files for the ANT network, we may run into problems with. The technical reasons for this have been outlined/explained in this  thread [a post of mine half way down].

 

Now, to see if I've forgotten anything .

[Tropod 144]

OK:

Here is what I'll do, for the ANT nework;

Host the files myself, for now. These files will basically contain a Replicated copy of the Road Paths and Textures files [but without all the wealth levels-this will help reduce quite a bit of work. There's now only approx 345 FSH files as apposed to approx 1400 FSH files. This may change though, as some Intersection/junction types may be removed/added]. A key difference though will be, that these files will be seperate from that of the Road files.

So the Textures/Paths for them can/should be safely modified without any impact on any the Road network [so those of you good with Texturing, you'll be able to dig in & modify them without worry ]. For now though, it will just contain the Files [Textures/Paths] for its own network [i.e. it won't contain intersection files for the different types of intersections between the ANT network and other networks].

 

 

I'll post later, with an URL {& Email address; for where to email me with Modified Textures/Paths; I'd rather have any files sent to me, than use ST bandwidth], once I've got a few things ironed out, but hopefully it will contain the Highway 'look' Textures for straight & diagonal directions.

 

[the7trumpets 10]

Date:4/27/2004 4:41:10 AM
Author:FireSka

I really liked the most recent network addon mod released.  However I have 2 requests if possible:

2.) The return of one piece onramps (like just the up ramp or just the down ramp rather than both at a time being placed), this time not making it to where you can't use one-way side on ramps.  I KNOW this is possible, but not sure how time consuming it is.  However if there was some way you could add these in and you could press tab to cycle through the differnt types, that would be awesome.

Date:5/2/2004 11:13:22 PM
Author:ardecila


Anyway . . . something I've been looking for since I came to this board intersection-wise is the existing highway interchanges broken up.  1/4 cloverleafs, one-way side off/onramps, 1/4 perpendicular off/onramps.  I believe the7trumpets looked into this a while ago.  That would earn my eternal thanks.

quote>

Back in the day, krelf and I were working on these diligently.  This was before the modd squad had cracked the EffectDir file (which looks like it has been done now).  I will try to dig up the old stuff we did and resurrect that project if you would like.

 

 

Please forgive me if I seem like a latecommer to this project trying to come in and re-evaluate everything, but please just bear with me for a few days, it's my methodical personality . 

 

The first matter is what will the ANT network be most useful as?

Last year, we had not yet discovered how exactly the oneway road does the oneway switching, and it was known that at least some of that was hardcoded in the exe.  Because of that, I basically eliminated the idea of a oneway highway (like tropod is suggesting).  Does this mean that we can now control the direction of a network tile, symilar to oneways?  If there is ANY doubt about this, I would highly suggest us doing thorough testing before we create gobs and gobs of models and textures.  Please fill in my embarassing ignorance tropod .

Earlier, you mentioned that the ANT network was incompatable with a 3d modeled network.  Why is this?  I cannot recall completely, but I'm almost sure in my crazy modding days that I did just that.  It requires creating an exemplar for every single s3d transit tile model, to link the path/rul files to the s3d,  but I'm almost sure it's possible (but I haven't tested it recently).

A while ago, my thought was to use this network as the surface light rail thingimabobber.  It seemed tailored for that, no development directly onto it, but I could use it in intersections/overrides of other networks.  My idea was to basically re-vamp all of the avenue textures to include SLR (surface light rail) in the middle of them, and revamp the road and oneway textures to include a train track(s) on the same lane as a car traffic lane.  These tiles would be created when you dragged the SLR over an avenue of road.  The difficult and time consuming thing would be getting the SLR merged on and off of the avenue or road.  Again, I think I tested whether the dirtroads network in question can be used by a mass transit building successfully, but I can't say that with 100% certainty.

All that said though, I love your idea tropod, of creating oneway highway pieces.  The possibilities are seemingly endless.  It could function as an easy way to route 'car only' traffic, or simply be a way to make highways curve in and out of hills in a more realistic rural-mountainous terrain.  The interchanges would get tricky, but it is possible.  However, as stated above, this would necessitate us being able to determine the direction of travel by the direction of drawing, like the oneway roads do.

 

So, we have a choice.

Do we do SLR? (assuming transit buildings can utalize the ANT network), or do we turn this into what Tropod has suggested, half a highway? (assuming we can dictate oneway direction of travel).  My goal would be to create something that the masses could and would use, regaurdless of the complexity.  We have 32,000 members here, many with some sort of talent they can lend to a project like this.  Hopefully all 32,000 of those people will find the ANT usefull when it is completed.  I assume many of these issues have been gone over in other R&D threads which I haven't gotten to yet, so please forgive me Tropod.  I just wanted to get it all out to ensure that we are all on the same page.

So, which of these two options are viable Tropod, and which should we commit to doing?

 

A few words on the structure of this project:

Sorry that my analytical self is coming out, but here is how I would structure this big project:

NOTE: Interchanges are 3d highway style interchanges, while intersections are 2d surface intersections.  There are three phases.  Phase one consists of creating new interchanges and intersections to existing networks, while at the same time refining the ANT (whatever it becomes) so that it works well on its own.  Phase two consists of the ANT being integrated into the other networks via intersections and interchanges.  Phase three consists of testing.  Then it's released as a fully function simtropolis Rush Hour expansion .

Interchange Modeling Team:

Creates 3d models for interchanges requested in Phase one, and submits them to the path and RUL team.  In Phase two, they focus on crating the needed interchanges to integrate ANT into the system.  Phase 3, they refine the models if any visual glitches come up.

Intersection Team:

Create textures requested for intersections and expanded options requested in phase 1, and submits them to the path and RUL team.  In phase two, they work on integrating the ANT into other 2d networks.  Phase 3, they refine and fix any visual bugs.

ANT Team:

In Phase one, they create a fully functional, but self contained ANT network, and submit the pieces to the Path/RUL team.  In Phase two, they work with the Intersection and Interchange teams to direct the look of the integration into other networks.  Phase three, they test and refine (like everyone else).

path/RUL Team:

In charge of structuring the guts (eewwww...) of this stuff.  Contains lots of specifics that most of you probably don't want to know, but this would include editing all path files, as well as ini 0x10000000, 0x10000001, and 0x10000002 (if necissary).  In phase 3, they would correct any pathfinding or visual path errors as well as construction RUL type errors.

 

 

So, how does that all sound?  Again, if this project is not to this point yet, or if I have brought up old ghosts which have been put to sleep in other threads, I appologize.  I'm just trying to rub the sleepy sand out of my eyes .  Oh, and I'll volunteer to be on, or head up the path/RUL team if you like this structure.

[Ryan B 35]

Now we have a plan of action here! One post by the Transit King (T7T) and we're in business!!!

Good to see you back, T7T. We missed you!

[redlotus 16]

Hmmm.  Let's see if I can fill in a few blanks while poor tropod gets some sleep.  I apologize in advance if this seems like I'm picking your post apart.  I don't mean it that way.  Just trying to catch you up to speed.

 

This was before the modd squad had cracked the EffectDir file (which looks like it has been done now).

 

Well, sort of.  Gizmo and I are about the only ones who can do anything with this file.  However, I should be able to come up with something that would allow just about anyone to create a new file for any new intersection previews.

 

Does this mean that we can now control the direction of a network tile, symilar to oneways?

 

I could be wrong (I'll let tropod verify this), but I don't think that we've been able to figure this out definitively.  I believe that trop's last hypthesis was that the path flipping was controlled by the exe and that new one-way paths would have to be in the 0x09xxxxxx block of numbers.  Tropod has been using his new 'bidirectional' paths to compensate for this.

 

Earlier, you mentioned that the ANT network was incompatable with a 3d modeled network.

 

Incompatible is kind of strong.  When the highway ruls are copied into dirt road ruls (replacing them), not all of the pieces would show up.  IIRC, orthagonal pieces wouldn't show up, but diagonal ones would.

 

A while ago, my thought was to use this network as the surface light rail thingimabobber.

 

A few months back, Teirusu discovered (and I confirmed) that the dirt road would not accept train passengers even if everything was set up correctly (i.e. ruls in place and the traffic simulator configured correctly).  In order to do something like this, we may only need to create new intersections, but that was something that I was planning on testing after my current project was completed.

 

I'll leave the rest of your post up to Tropod as the ANT is more his baby.  I'm not completely sure what he has in store for it.

 

If it's possible some time, all three of us should get together in chat and try to get some organization going.  Like DM frequently mentions, sometimes this stuff can be easier to go over in real time.

 

-red

[Tropod 144]

That's one heck of a post 7th . Some very good points there indeed.

Lets see if I can't clarify a few things, especially since some pics of mine were/are a bit vague

 

Controlling of the Onewayroads, as you would know, is mostly controlled by the exe, most likely & directly by its ButtonID Property. So no, I haven't found the mystical secret .

What I am actually suggesting is; a single-tile highway, that has two-way traffic on it [&/or perhaps/rather incorporate Bi-directional Pathing rules, so that perhaps we could get around the flipping/controlling of direction issue. There is another rather minor, none-technical, issue with doing this though]; and its transitions to a normal ground highway could possibly be done in one of a few different ways [if Bi-directional Pathing rules were included though, to get around the flipping/controlling issue, then a Straight forward GroundHighway to ANT conversion would be preferable].

 

There's more than one reason why I was intending on heading down this route; one of them is because; anything that involves the RULs [excluding the IntersectionOrdering RUL; some other exclusions & possibly the RuleOverrides Rul] to reference a S3D based Exemplar, for where the DirtRoad rule designation is used in the rules, the linking does not work properly because the Exemplars need a specific GID for the network in order for any S3D based files/pieces to show up. This GID, for this network, is something we don't have I believe [unless I've just completely missed it somewhere]; and it's the reason why I have not been able to create bridges and/or Tunnels using the network. If there's anything regarding the S3D aspect of it that you've been able to do, that we may not know, clue us in if you would.

 

Regarding the SLR; Red seems to have explained this. But I'll just add to it; putting aside the [technical] functional aspect of it; I don't believe you'd actually be able to do what you're suggesting, or least part of it. Lets assume for a minute that the ANT tool would be used to do this; if you were to drag the ANT tool over a stretch of Avenue or Road, I don't believe the Textures [containing the SLR] would actually show [& as for the Paths, who knows]. The reason for this is the DirtRoad tool does not have any sticking/overriding force. As you would know, the RUL 0x10000001 file contains the Network Rule Overrides, for where one network can be dragged over another & thus replace the network. The stupid thing here about these rules is, is that they are also read in reverse, which makes them rather pointless/useless in some ways. I don't know why Maxis even bothered with these particular rule overrides at the end of this file [& it's why I've commented out any/all rule overrides where dirtroad is used], as the different networks have a definitive hierarchy, of which the ANT network is at the very bottom; heck even dragging the streets over the ANT replaces it with streets.

 

I am open to ideas still, & I would have no problem if you wanted to change the aspect of things [or even take over some], but I just think because of the limiations we are faced with we really don't have many options. The only thing I could suggest, that is if I did, is getting a hold of someone who has the[sC4] code to help out [Maxis preferably-wink wink. But that'd be a million to one shot], since these limitations seem to be defined there.

 

If there's anything I've not explained or answered fully, be sure to let me know . Let us know what you think, taking these things into consideration.

[ardecila 124]

All shall reply to this post . . . .

For I have created the STACK!




Do you guys have any comments? I still need to add supports, and connect the ramp structures to the main highway structures. Can anyone possibly help me with creating a texture for the area where the the ramps merge into the main traffic? Any help here is mucho appreciated. Thanks.

[joexcooldude 1]

Are you serious? Cause if you are,

[ed_diaz 10]

Date:5/15/2004 1:25:58 PM
Author:ardecila

All shall bow before me . . . .

For I have created the STACK!

quote>

ok dont sweat yourself yet, this looks cool and all but theres somethign wrong with it..i dont know what it is i cant pin point it..but something looks werid, anywayz the idea is defiantly there however!

[Equinox 1,209]

T7T!!  It's soo good to see you again!  I hope you will help bring this project all the way to the finish line (from the looks of things, there might be multiple finish lines, LOL). 

BTW ... that stack interchange is looking AWESOME already!

[redlotus 16]

ardecila:  The stack is looking good.  However, I'd have to agree with ed_diaz and say that it is a little off.  It looks a little flat.  What kind of clearance are you using between two 'lanes' that run over top of each other?  I've personally been using about 15m between highway sections and about 10-15m between ramps or ramps and highways.

 

As for the textures, don't worry about them.  Because of the process that I use to create truly 3D objects, any texturing that you use in GMAX will be stripped off.  I then use actual textures from the game to skin each piece.

 

Anyway, keep up the great work.  You're already off to a great start.

 

-red

[+Guest]

Welcome back T7T's! Don't get too involved here though, you have a life now.

And I like that stack, but for one, it's really big looking......it should be smaller than the cloverleaf.

Edit: Great idea: if anyone has True Crime: Streets of LA see fi yuo can take some screencaps of the US-101/I-110 interchange. It's about as cooker-cutter stack as you can find in a video game.

[joexcooldude 1]

I can get some pics of True Crime in about 10 minutes.

[joexcooldude 1]

Here are pics of the cookie-cutter stack at US101-I105 in True Crime. Sorry for the lousy pictures, i was using a digital camera pointing at the TV.

 

Overhead aerial images, or side-on images [at a distance] of interchanges are preferable thanks; so we can actually see the whole thing.

 

These next ones are pics of the I10-I405 stack. This is more of a shifted stack.

  

*Note* The I10-I105 interchange is NOT a stack, instead it is a large mix of high-speed ramps.

[+Guest]

Cool. Hopefully they'll help a bit. I'm not allowed to play my Xbox today (I got in trouble, hence why I didn't take pics myself), but I'll see if I can sneak in some pics......

[Casper3141 60]

just look at that stack!!!! now all we need is a tool to make are own on and off ramps so we can make realistic highways

[codyg1985 0]

The stack looks to be a good start.

As mentioned, the supports and connections to the main highway need to be added. Also, you may want to consider creating a more compact version which would not take up as much space as the cloverleaf.

You could also try creating a higher-capacity stack which has two lanes per ramp.

[DuskTrooper 314]

Looks good!  But a tad very exceedingly crude, but its a start.

Also, the levels seem too low.  You should raise it up a bit lot.

[ardecila 124]

codyg: The ramps are 7 meters wide. The capacity is already 2 lanes. But, as redlotus pointed out, my texturing is just to give you an idea. If and when my stack is converted to S3D form, it will be textured then. I did just edit the current texture to have two lanes, however. Could someone tell me whether they are single-line or double-line, white or yellow, solid or dotted?

OK. I've been working on the height issue. Try to think of the ramps as two-lane and see if they look any more accurate. If not, could you give me a desired maximum height so I can scale? Thanks.

Dusktrooper: Being from Houston, I'm sure you have a LOT of experience with stacks. What did you mean by crude? If you meant faceted:

3rd change: I put a MeshSmooth on the ramps (except the areas where the ramps come together). It looks much more natural now, but less like it belongs in SimCity 4. Since these interchanges have to be full 3d files, smoother ramps are going to cost YOU in poly counts and, therefore game speed.

Gentlemen, we can rebuild him:

[Corlian 2]

Okay, I've read the whole thread, and I don't think I missed anything...

 

Why doesn't anyone seem interested in rail-over-road?  For me, most of my rail is in a tight spot, but frequent road intersections and highway proximity make road-over-rail impossible, and sometimes lots would face the road-over-rail...but the rail line has all the room in the world for an overpass, since it crossing nothing but the roads it needs to go over.  It has all the room it needs in its thin corridor.

 

So can I request rail-over-road, or is there a reason this has been abandoned?

[caghaasnoot 11]

I second Corlian - Rail over Road is a wanted option!

If a Rail over Road Overpass is made, I would suggest to make it a realistic one, i.e. with long, slow grades - keep in mind that trains normally deal with tracks that have 1-2% grades, in extreme cases they can handle 5% (with short consists and a lot of sand!). Taking the last percentage and a stated tile size of 16 meters means that you can have a rise of 80 centimeters per tile. Putting the overpass at 4 meters height, 5 tiles are needed to make the grade up, then the overpass itself (3 tiles?) and 5 down again - quite a lengthy lot!

The real nice wannahave is of course the possibility to keep the train at the elevated level for as long as needed so that in areas with many road crossings you can overpass them all at will.
Please note that this used to be the way (at least in Europe) to keep trains out of the way in city centers: put them up in the air. Nowadays the train track are put under the ground in city centers - maybe another suggestion for ANT: making an underground tunnel system for trains?

PS: Of course, there is the Rail over GroundHighway overpass that is already part of the AddOn. Functionally, I like it very much, although it is IMHO unnatural to the eye: the grades are much too steep (it's almost a circle sector!) - couldn't it be made longer, ie with lower grades? And if it is there for the GroundHighway couldn't it be adapted rather easily foor ANT (or normal) roads?

cag

[caghaasnoot 11]

It took me a while reading this whole thread, but let me first state my great admiration for what has been and still is being realized! It's FANTASTIC!!
Please be advised that any comment I make (or have made already) is from that very positive attitude!

Now, from what I read I have the feeling that there is still some uncertainty of what to do with the ANT. Oneway Highways as well as SLR-overlay where shot down as not being doable. Is Tropod's idea of threelane highways(?) still standing? Looking at Tropods threelane road-tiles I came up with the idea of a normal road (=outer lanes) with the middle lane oneway only but the direction of this lane changing on morning/evening traffic. It occured to me that most roads have heavy traffic in the morning going from R->C/I and the other way around in the evening. With a good electronic guiding system (with overhead guiding lights showing what the allowed direction is at the time) this could really be of great help in congested areas and double the capacity of the road.

Looking forward to comments!

cag

[the7trumpets 10]

ardecila and everyone who is proposing new or expanded highway interchanges:

The RUL format of INI file 0x10000000 (The file we use to define multiple tile interchanges between networks) prevents any interchange larger than 16 tiles in one direction (North-South or East-West). This means that a given interchange may not be more than 16 tiles tall or wide, no matter what. The way the s3d's are refferenced for thier position is that one character from the instanceID of the exemplar (which links to the s3d) is incremented for each position east and south of the top left tile. Since we're in hex, we can't have more than 16 values for that character.

Suffice it to say, any creations have to be 16 tiles (256 meters) or less in width and height. But great work!!!

As my ultra-realism streak continues, I love the size of your pictured flyover. In fact, I'm one who has complained about the tiny size of the current cloverleaf. In reality, a real cloverleaf would be approxomately 45 tiles in each direction, which is simply not possible with the coding scheme maxis chose. Yes people, look up cloverleafs on mapquest. They are at least 1/3 a mile in each direction, many being 1/2 a mile or larger. But that debate is silly and fruitless. Great job, continue it and try to keep the polygon count down for performance reasons. I'll be happy to do some RUL and path coding to make it function (provided you do the honors of cutting it up into tile sized pieces ). Hopefully DM and Redlotus can get some sort of EffectDir editor up and running shortly, wink wink.




In other news, I'll do some experiments about the SLR option. My idea was to define all the tiles as 'intersection' tiles (RUL 0x10000001) as opposed to a rule override at the end of the file. Yes, this would require lots of coding, but oh well. It's all for the good of the ST modd squadd . In any case, the biggest question is wheather it's possible to have trains or el-trains traveling on the 'dirt roads'. It sounds like that has been proven wrong, but the possibilities are so cool, that I might just have to have a crack at it myself, to break the old cobwebs off my modding luck .


As far as the bi-directional highway paths go, it would work, but no other car carying networks would be able to cross at a diagonal angle to the ANT. Why? Well, there are many diagonal interchanges where the path rules simply don't work well enough, and they had to hard code exceptions and checks into the exe for these. Coding a new diagonal interchange or overpass could concievably allow cars to 'jump' from one roadway to another when there is no ramp. Still though, it's a great idea, something worth checking into. I'm just giving a heads up as a possible road block so it's not quite so big a blow later.


I'll report back once I've tested SLR stuff, hopefully successfully, although with red and others confirming that it has issues, my hopes are not extremely high.