China warns Taiwan over Independence

[DuskTrooper 316]

IDK, but for some reason, the prospect of a world war erupting right now seems very exciting to me....

[fukuda 351]

The fact that there are several wars occuring at the same time is not a reason to call this a world war. I see no relationship between the Gaza strip "conflict" and North Korea. There are always several conflicts at the same time on earth, but now we are better informed of it with globalization and it seems worst than it really is.

[hummer0328 6]

I just can't see a real world war happening.  The US alone spent more on it's military last year than every other country in the world combined.  If you also added are likely allies in a world war it would account for about 90% of the worlds total military spending.

Make no mistake.  The US may have a hard time occupying Iraq, but when we invaded we did it with ease.  My guess is that China realizes all this too.  IMO it's all just talk, just like Iran saying they are the worlds most powerful country.

[spacemanspiff 0]

Tell you what, were the PRC to attack the ROC, then a major war would erupt. However, I doubt the PRC will make that move. They are just getting to the point that they can militarily challenge tiny little Taiwan, so they are in no shape whatsoever to tussle with the US or Japan. Interestingly enough there has been quite an arms race in East Asia for the past decade or so. Essentially, since the collapse of the USSR, China has made effort to step up on the power ladder. This hasn't been lost on their neighbors, who have beefed up their own militarizes in a direct response. Even itsy-bitsy Singapore is flexing it's muscles. An even more important player in all this is Japan. Lets not forget the loving relationship between China and Japan. Japan has a very large, modern, and potent military, though they keep a very low profile. For some time now, the Japanese government has been trying to rework Article 9 of their constitution. Article 9 is what defines their military and it's role. Many find it too be too restrictive in the current world climate, especially given the capabilities of China and their little buddy, the DPRK (North Korea). I'm sure there are a lot of Filipinos that are reconsidering the US' decision to leave since China has been aggressively claiming territory near the Philippines.

[Zelgadis 638]

"China warns Taiwan over Independence."

This is news? Doesn't the Chinese government do that at least once a week?

ISF

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: zelgadis "China warns Taiwan over Independence."

This is news? Doesn't the Chinese government do that at least once a week?

ISF

quote>

Yeah, they do... but this time Taiwan is going to make its Independence official.

[gatorhead92 0]

Correct me if im wrong,(going back to TRNSTN's reply), but isnt the US the third largest nation on the planet-not china?

Also, lets say a war did break out. Even if Iran and N. Korea did back up China, would that be a match for the US? Cause im assuming that Japan, and likely S. Korea would join us in defending Taiwan as do others. Maybe even Britain or France. Together thats impossible to defeat. Again im just assuming.

[Frankie_Grove 32]

Originally posted by: gatorhead92 Correct me if im wrong,(going back to TRNSTN's reply), but isnt the US the third largest nation on the planet-not china?quote>

I do believe China is a slightly bigger than the US.

Also, lets say a war did break out. Even if Iran and N. Korea did back up China, would that be a match for the US? Cause im assuming that Japan, and likely S. Korea would join us in defending Taiwan as do others. Maybe even Britain or France. Together thats impossible to defeat. Again im just assuming.quote>

I don't think that the Chinese would go to war with the US. Mainly because we are their most valuable trading partner, not to mention the fact that the Chinese already control of a lot of US stock, which would mean going to war with the US is going to war with their economy.

I highly doubt Britain or France would join a war (at least not at first) to defend Taiwan. There is no such thing as "impossible to defeat", difficult perhaps, but not impossible. When it comes to conventional warfare, the US could probably take China alone, but that will most likely not be the case. We took over Iraq in a week, you probably couldn't take over a single US city in a week.

It is quite difficult to guess at who will be joining who. We always seem to have tensions with Russia, yet in wars we always end up on the same side.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: gatorhead92 Correct me if im wrong,(going back to TRNSTN's reply), but isnt the US the third largest nation on the planet-not china?quote>

I think its disputed

Also, lets say a war did break out. Even if Iran and N. Korea did back up China, would that be a match for the US? Cause im assuming that Japan, and likely S. Korea would join us in defending Taiwan as do others. Maybe even Britain or France. Together thats impossible to defeat. Again im just assuming.quote>

Iran? No... North Korea? Maybe. If South Korea attacked China along with the US and Japan, I can guarentee that the DPRK would cross the DMZ to keep the South Koreans occupied. After all, the ultimate goal of the DPRK is the 're-unification' of Korea under its flag, and that would be a sure fire way of completing it while the US and Japan are occupied.

People seem to think that China is no match for the US... yes, if a war broke out you be against an Army this time and not some insurgents, but the PLA's modernisation programme has brought China back up on level with Western hardware standards. In the 1st Gulf War, many of Iraq's missiles were Chinese and it gave them a detailed view on how their missiles faired up to US stuff. The results were a boot up the arse of PLA Officials and ever since the mid 90's the PLA has been rapidly modernising its weapons, field gear and now its moved onto Information warfare. Most contemporary aircraft are flying supercomputers... imagine if the Chinese could jam the systems of every 'Unmachable' F-22 Raptor the US were going to throw at China with a single virus? They'd simply fall from the sky...

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: DuskTrooper IDK, but for some reason, the prospect of a world war erupting right now seems very exciting to me....quote>

It's your avatar, probably.

Originally posted by: El Burro

Originally posted by: gatorhead92 Correct me if im wrong,(going back to TRNSTN's reply), but isnt the US the third largest nation on the planet-not china?quote>

I think its disputedquote>

Yup. It depends on whether or not you count the disputed territories.

[gatorhead92 0]

Do the Chineese really have the technology to do that or could they get their hands on it?

[Haljackey 17,398]

Well all we can really do is wait and see if this referendum passes. If it does, then we will have to see how China responds, either by words or missiles.

Edit:  When is the referendum being held?

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: gatorhead92 Do the Chineese really have the technology to do that or could they get their hands on it?quote>

They have the technology, yes... the question is - Do they have the virus? Do they have the means to deliver it?

The BBC article I posted before says -

China was developing weapons that would disable its enemies' space technology - such as satellites - in the event of a conflict.

It expressed concern about China's decision to shoot down a defunct weather satellite in a test in January 2007.

It also said that "numerous" cyber intrusions into computer networks around the world, including some owned by the US administration, apparently originated in China.quote>

So... their already hacking US Government computers... 

Originally posted by: haljackeyEdit:  When is the referendum being held?quote>

22 March I think

[TRNSTN 0]

Originally posted by: gatorhead92 Do the Chineese really have the technology to do that or could they get their hands on it?quote>

It was just a few weeks ago where those four Chinese spies were arrested for stealing classified information from NASA databases.

I've read in a Time magazine article (might be from somewhere else) that  everyday there are Chinese hackers trying to get into the U.S Intelligence databanks looking for military information and hardware blueprints. Heck, they're so good at copying just about every single consumer good in the States, sometime without being found out for months, it's hard to say what the Chinese really can do.

Just because a lot of the country is poor and seems back water, where do you think all that money and man power goes to?

The States may be the strongest right now in just about every way, but they honestly need to step up they're game on the home front to keep up with China in the future, who's steadily catching up/

[gatorhead92 0]

Great point - from both of u

[IDS2 3,429]

I agree with panther, China can be pretty dumb. They should give up Tibet and Taiwan and quit whining over it, acting like they are superior. Ooh, hundreds of millions of soldiers, 300 nukes...

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: El Burro

Originally posted by: gatorhead92 Do the Chineese really have the technology to do that or could they get their hands on it?quote>

They have the technology, yes... the question is - Do they have the virus? Do they have the means to deliver it?

The BBC article I posted before says -

China was developing weapons that would disable its enemies' space technology - such as satellites - in the event of a conflict.

It expressed concern about China's decision to shoot down a defunct weather satellite in a test in January 2007.

It also said that "numerous" cyber intrusions into computer networks around the world, including some owned by the US administration, apparently originated in China.quote>

So... their already hacking US Government computers... quote>

And they've been doing that, along with seven year old kids and only God knows who else.  Doesn't mean they've found much.

We've all progressed a long way since the event I'm about to mention, but for some comparison's sake, let's go back to the US spy plane that went down over Chinese airspace (I'm going to refrain from saying flat out saying it was shot down, but the whole thing about it crashing into one of their planes is obviously bogus).  At the time that happened, the Chinese were making desperate efforts to get a copy of the data that was on it meanwhile people in the Pentagon were sending self-destruct commands to the computers on the plane.  Point being, we're the stuff that the Chinese are talking about researching is stuff that we know the US at least has rudimentary experience with doing.  If you go and disable a spy satellite, it wouldn't take that long to re-establish communications with it since there are hardware signals on these things that you can't override with software.  It's really easy to talk about having a virus that will make the Air Force's prized jets simply fall out of the sky, but there's really no reason from anything we know to suspect that they have that capability.

[TRNSTN 0]

Originally posted by: IDS2 I agree with panther, China can be pretty dumb. They should give up Tibet and Taiwan and quit whining over it, acting like they are superior. Ooh, hundreds of millions of soldiers, 300 nukes...quote>

It's quite scary to think that any country would use nuclear weapons. However, it's really scary when you have several hot-headed individuals/groups in control of nuclear weapons (think Kim Jong Il). If Taiwan elects pro independence, and also yes for the referendum, there's no saying how China will react. Warning missiles in the country side, urban centes? It's not even stupidity for China, it's complete lack of respect for a country who democratically chooses to be independent.

Honestly, China can't really do anything too damaging Taiwan except hot air, because the Beijing Olympics are just 6 months away. Yes, we have heard that China would have an agressive response regardless. I don't know about you, but that's a universal shame that China will have to bear on it's shoulders for a very long time-- attacking a democratic country which chose to be free and independent just months before an international event to celebrate good sportsmanship and fair play. tsk tsk.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: Voar TokIt's really easy to talk about having a virus that will make the Air Force's prized jets simply fall out of the sky, but there's really no reason from anything we know to suspect that they have that capability.quote>

Indeedy. But I think the Chinese are more technologically advanced than they let on (I could be majorly wrong, obviously). If you develop something that can give you a decisive military advantage its best not to tell anyone because your enemies will instantly try and counter it (given the resources... which the US certainly has). China can't afford to give away all its military secrets...  unlike the US who insist to blab about all the amazing superweapons their researching simply to strike the fear of god into anybody who opposes them.

[mightygoose 92]

Originally posted by: El Burro  unlike the US who insist to blab about all the amazing superweapons their researching simply to strike the fear of god into anybody who opposes them.quote>

which is exactly why i think the chinese would and take and maintain control of taiwan

think about it.  the chinese dont see the fact that most of their exports go to america as a disadvantage.... it would take to long to affect any conflict. in fact its an advantage.... america would suffer much more quickly. secondly the chinese are so secretive they may have something up their sleeve. and thirdly with chinas accelerating economy they are getting mighty big for the US to boss around. they may call the US bluff to make some kind of statement tantamount to a middle finger up at the US.... I think if china moved swiftly and decisively on taiwan the americans would be very reluctant to go to war... especially when public opinion is so low and current military spending is already so high....

[IDS2 3,429]

Yes besides the nice residents carrying on with their lives the government insists on pushing the envelope a little bit too far. Free Taiwan! Come on, what's it to you besides money? Oh, that's it? Shame to see they won't give it up...oh, because they're not too well off on their own...your special economic zones are spoiling it. Even Britain liberated its colonies...and you can't? 

Communism isn't too fun...

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Voar Tok

It's really easy to talk about having a virus that will make the Air Force's prized jets simply fall out of the sky, but there's really no reason from anything we know to suspect that they have that capability.

quote>

The Chinese are probably more interested in jamming the radars than making them (the planes, not radars) "fall out of the sky".

[Yoman3 5]

Burro - No offence, but I dont quite think you know what you are talking about with the F-22 and viruses. Its not like it uses Norton. Its computers are hardened against nuclear EMPs and it operates on a secure connection, not like the pilot is going I download porn that contains a virus onto those computers . As for Chinese military development, they still lag behind greatly and most of their best stuff is Russian. Ill elaborate more later, on a phone.

[Micah 16]

So... their already hacking US Government computers... quote>

Exactly. I've already posted this in another thread (forgot which one), but there are thousands of "intrusions" coming directly from China trying to invade American governmental networks. That's why the FBI is creating a self-defending cyber-bot that can update and protect itself from any cyberenemies without any help from a human... it's called the Roast Bot... look it up.

[TRNSTN 0]

Okay, this discussion is turning into the comparison between the military prowess of the USofA against the PRoC, getting a bit off topic here :S. Honestly, regardless of how well Chinese hackers can ICQ American F4F Wildcat's by the time any U.S battle group arrives, Taiwan will have been on the receiving end for 300 ballistic missiles. There won't be much of a Taiwan left to be independent and free.

There has to be preventative measures politically to prevent China from using violent force against Taiwan. Is there really a guarantee that the US will send in a battle group as they did before to keep the peace? China's really the one pulling strings with the US economy, it's really hard for the States to really do anything too drastic to hurt those relations. On the other hand, Bush has/use to been spouting the spread and preservation of democracy (Afghanistan anyone?), and the protection for that way of life. Right here between China and Taiwan is a gigantic issue of a successful democracy at odds against the supposedly wrong Communists. It's honestly a human rights issue, even if it isn't polluted air, poisoned water and corrupt government. Once again I see the massive failure we like to call the United Nations.

[mightygoose 92]

Originally posted by: Micah

So... their already hacking US Government computers... quote>

Exactly. I've already posted this in another thread (forgot which one), but there are thousands of "intrusions" coming directly from China trying to invade American governmental networks. That's why the FBI is creating a self-defending cyber-bot that can update and protect itself from any cyberenemies without any help from a human... it's called the Roast Bot... look it up.

quote>

skynet anyone

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: Yoman3 Burro - No offence, but I dont quite think you know what you are talking about with the F-22 and viruses. Its not like it uses Norton. Its computers are hardened against nuclear EMPs and it operates on a secure connection, not like the pilot is going I download porn that contains a virus onto those computers . As for Chinese military development, they still lag behind greatly and most of their best stuff is Russian. Ill elaborate more later, on a phone.quote>

It was a hypothetical situation... I said 'Imagine if' not 'The Chinese can/have/will'... but I can assure you that the Raptor isn't 'impervious'... if there's a will there's a way. A government funded hacker can do a lot more damage than what you've got in your porn folder

[spacemanspiff 0]

El Burro: Yes, PRC has undergone a major military upgrade, but there is still a huge gap in capability. Plans and strategy take considerable effort to develop. Hardware upgrades are the easy part, but only a fraction of what is necessary to be truly modernized.

Cyber warfare is a major part of the PRC's operations, but that's nothing new. Sure, the USAF just created Cyber Command, but that has been part Space Command for decades.

TRNSTN: Excellent point about their upcoming Olympic Games. You are so right. Not a very good idea to start a complicated conflict on the eve of such a high profile event. Of course, the Chinese Olympics is another topic unto itself. Furthermore, you are even still more correcter that it would be a humanitarian issue. As I pointed out earlier, ROC has never been part of Communist China, and has asserted itself as an independent nation for over 50 years. If the UN lets China swallow them up, it would be a travesty.

The PRC is a weird nation, and many of the things id does makes no sense. I attribute it to the feudal/dynastic elements that operate within the country. Their military dose so many odd, belligerent things. Things like the RC135 incident, the Spratly Islands, turning away ports-of-call, and Taiwan. Then the central government makes confusing sometimes contradictory, overtures. Sure, some of it is saber rattling, but some stuff is just nonsensical. t leaves to question, who is in charge of what. If there is a problem with internal communications, or some sort of power struggle, then things can get out of hand.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: spacemanspiff El Burro: Yes, PRC has undergone a major military upgrade, but there is still a huge gap in capability. Plans and strategy take considerable effort to develop. Hardware upgrades are the easy part, but only a fraction of what is necessary to be truly modernized.quote>

The Chinese have had 60 years to formulate an invasion of Taiwan, its not like they've just decided to do it a few days ago. The vast amount of useful strategy is forumlated during a war since its impossible to tell where the enemy will hold or attack first, the only possibly way to prepare for that is through combat readiness and training. The Chinese army is certainly not highly trained however(a large majority of Soldiers are Conscripted) and that would probably be their downfall during a war.

Cyber warfare is a major part of the PRC's operations, but that's nothing new. Sure, the USAF just created Cyber Command, but that has been part Space Command for decades.quote>

The US military was thinking of Militarising Space... looks like they lowered its priority abit. And to be honest, the Americans would be crazy not to be light years ahead of the Chinese with Cyber warfare anyway.

[gatorhead92 0]

I dont know, i have to agree that China is probably  underminded about their power. But, they're also given to much credit sometimes too. Although there is no doubt in my mind that there is a good chance that China will/could take action. If they were really planning something, America would of found out about it a long time ago-and the reason why alot of us wouldn't know about it, is that this is just one of the many topics the US gov. is keeping covered up until something actually happens. I am sure i will be corrected about this, but i believe that Taiwan deserves to become an independent country and did deserved it 50 years ago. All i have to say now is kudos to Taiwan for standing up to a huge empire for decades. If it hasent already, this will earn them alot of respect in the future throughout the world.