Creationism vs. Evolution

[flatron 83]

So in the future I will not call people idiots, but will diagnose them with "a vacuumic sydroma above C0"

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Delving into our present reality, what we can perceive of it, eventually requires a creator because everything seems to be cause and effect.  I have no problem with the idea of a multiverse allowing other, and multiple, dimensions and parallel universes each with its own physical laws.  Abstraction was never one of my strong points, but this is one area where I am feeling quite firm.

 

Revelations, by the way, says more about psychosis than gods.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I think a lot of these 'historical' acts in the Bible such as the virgin being impregnated and the sending of plagues would fall under the 'God is energy' belief well, but not the 'God is an anthropomorphic deity with arms and a brain' belief. If the universe is composed of God then everything that happens is God's divine will, and thus any events whether historical or fictional are created by God, the Bible was created by God.

 

Thus if you believe in the energy God belief you believe in science but believe science IS 'God', whatever 'God' means. Newton and Galileo aren't infidels but God's own fingers shifting his creation. But that means terrorists, murderers etc are also God's fingers, which either suggests God is rather a human chap or not so well meaning as thought.

 

At any rate what we do know empirically is that science/our universe is consistent to such an extent that if a God does exist it's influence is either so omnipresent as to be not worth noting, or so distant from our own sphere of existence that our knowledge of science is barely affected by its existence. The point is that evolution is scientifically proven fact, whether or not Gods exist or do not, and if one believes in a God and also understands logical reasoning and empirical evidence analysis, one would be forced to believe in evolution and a God, not one or the other. 

 

Then again some people believe in flying spaghetti monsters and leprechauns and the like. But evolution is a pretty well evidenced reality. The only possible way one could argue for creation is either that all the evidence is bogus and created by infidels (which is nonsense) or that God created all the evidence to test oiur loyalty to him, which also sounds highly suss.

 

But there's not really a single omnipresent thing called "energy" in our universe.  Energy is just a word we use to describe certain characteristics of different things, but the actual characteristics being described are not necessarily the same characteristics.  When you measure the "energy" of something, you're measuring different things depending on the context.  So if someone wants to say that God is energy, they first have to define what energy is.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy so what type of energy is God? 

 

Saying that god is energy is like saying that god is strength.  Pretty much everything in the universe has a quality that can be described as strength, but ranging from thing to thing "strength" is measuring different things depending on what you're measuring. 

[AkemiAzula 280]

 

I think a lot of these 'historical' acts in the Bible such as the virgin being impregnated and the sending of plagues would fall under the 'God is energy' belief well, but not the 'God is an anthropomorphic deity with arms and a brain' belief. If the universe is composed of God then everything that happens is God's divine will, and thus any events whether historical or fictional are created by God, the Bible was created by God.

 

Thus if you believe in the energy God belief you believe in science but believe science IS 'God', whatever 'God' means. Newton and Galileo aren't infidels but God's own fingers shifting his creation. But that means terrorists, murderers etc are also God's fingers, which either suggests God is rather a human chap or not so well meaning as thought.

 

At any rate what we do know empirically is that science/our universe is consistent to such an extent that if a God does exist it's influence is either so omnipresent as to be not worth noting, or so distant from our own sphere of existence that our knowledge of science is barely affected by its existence. The point is that evolution is scientifically proven fact, whether or not Gods exist or do not, and if one believes in a God and also understands logical reasoning and empirical evidence analysis, one would be forced to believe in evolution and a God, not one or the other. 

 

Then again some people believe in flying spaghetti monsters and leprechauns and the like. But evolution is a pretty well evidenced reality. The only possible way one could argue for creation is either that all the evidence is bogus and created by infidels (which is nonsense) or that God created all the evidence to test oiur loyalty to him, which also sounds highly suss.

 

But there's not really a single omnipresent thing called "energy" in our universe.  Energy is just a word we use to describe certain characteristics of different things, but the actual characteristics being described are not necessarily the same characteristics.  When you measure the "energy" of something, you're measuring different things depending on the context.  So if someone wants to say that God is energy, they first have to define what energy is.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy so what type of energy is God? 

 

Saying that god is energy is like saying that god is strength.  Pretty much everything in the universe has a quality that can be described as strength, but ranging from thing to thing "strength" is measuring different things depending on what you're measuring. 

 

Well if the Higgs Boson or string theory or whatever is correct then the universe, as most science seems to be indicating by the patterns and connections between everything and the relativity of all things, appears to be constructed of a single 'entity' with a flow throughout connecting all forces. The universe according to all the data available appears as one large organ of existence rather than separate units coexisting to make a whole. 'Energy' here would refer to science, everything, the universe, as the 'living world' in which we exist. The 'energy' would be the description of the force of existence keeping all matter intact and causing it to act in the way matter acts. 

 

At any rate I am basically pointing out the consistency of our universe and of science, pointing out how fluid and connected it all is in one large 'great scheme', thus rather strongly pointing towards evolution as opposed to 'creation' and other such acts of what would appear an obvious anomalous character if detected within science. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Last thing I heard in the sciences is that everything is controlled by a gigantic weak field that contains mostly nothingness including all matter (us, for example).  How long is a piece of string?

[Mr Saturn64 742]

I think a lot of these 'historical' acts in the Bible such as the virgin being impregnated and the sending of plagues would fall under the 'God is energy' belief well, but not the 'God is an anthropomorphic deity with arms and a brain' belief. If the universe is composed of God then everything that happens is God's divine will, and thus any events whether historical or fictional are created by God, the Bible was created by God.

 

Thus if you believe in the energy God belief you believe in science but believe science IS 'God', whatever 'God' means. Newton and Galileo aren't infidels but God's own fingers shifting his creation. But that means terrorists, murderers etc are also God's fingers, which either suggests God is rather a human chap or not so well meaning as thought.

 

At any rate what we do know empirically is that science/our universe is consistent to such an extent that if a God does exist it's influence is either so omnipresent as to be not worth noting, or so distant from our own sphere of existence that our knowledge of science is barely affected by its existence. The point is that evolution is scientifically proven fact, whether or not Gods exist or do not, and if one believes in a God and also understands logical reasoning and empirical evidence analysis, one would be forced to believe in evolution and a God, not one or the other. 

 

Then again some people believe in flying spaghetti monsters and leprechauns and the like. But evolution is a pretty well evidenced reality. The only possible way one could argue for creation is either that all the evidence is bogus and created by infidels (which is nonsense) or that God created all the evidence to test oiur loyalty to him, which also sounds highly suss.

 

But there's not really a single omnipresent thing called "energy" in our universe.  Energy is just a word we use to describe certain characteristics of different things, but the actual characteristics being described are not necessarily the same characteristics.  When you measure the "energy" of something, you're measuring different things depending on the context.  So if someone wants to say that God is energy, they first have to define what energy is.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy so what type of energy is God? 

 

Saying that god is energy is like saying that god is strength.  Pretty much everything in the universe has a quality that can be described as strength, but ranging from thing to thing "strength" is measuring different things depending on what you're measuring.

God is everything and in everything. You cannot see it, but is there in many forms.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The anthropomorphic God of the religious groups does not exist.  Only the universal god of everything sometimes called nature.

[Mr Saturn64 742]

The anthropomorphic God of the religious groups does not exist.  Only the universal god of everything sometimes called nature.

So you are.... What religion?

[LexusInfernus 908]

^Technically such a belief is called Pantheism. Its not a religion, just like Theism or Deism is not a religion. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

 

The anthropomorphic God of the religious groups does not exist.  Only the universal god of everything sometimes called nature.

So you are.... What religion?

 

None.  I think organized religions are a racket.

[Mr Saturn64 742]

Organized religion is best if you don't intervene with other congregations unless in a charity event.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Tell that to the WBC.  They have no charity in the biblical sense.  Sounding brass and tinkling cymbals.

[Mr Saturn64 742]

They're extremists. And many extremists actually go against their beliefs

[Wiimeiser 436]

The whole Bible Belt is extremists. Lack of violence notwithstanding they're no better than the extremists in the Middle East...

[timmie 988]

The whole Bible Belt? I think there are moderate Christians and even atheists in the Bible Belt too

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

The whole Bible Belt? I think there are moderate Christians and even atheists in the Bible Belt too

Easily a generalisation. There's populations of denominations everywhere, even in the most unlikely of places. In fact, there is currently a single Jew living in Kabul (and indeed Afghanistan) at the moment.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

They're extremists. And many extremists actually go against their beliefs

Rather a broad statement, eh?  Ever been in the "Bible belt"?  I have, and it is not really different from anyplace else on the continent.

 

One thing I did note, at the time (1963) Dallas was dry, but you could join a club for next to nothing and then drink like a fish.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Extremist Christians don't tend to promote terrorism as a means of conversion. While in the past war has been their tool (also for political and other reasons) there are not many who act like the ME extremists.

 

Anyway back on topic I really think that evolution as a fact is hard to deny considering that everything in the known universe follows patterns and 'evolves'. Take a business, for example. Businesses evolve over time following similar patterns as civilisations, animals, rivers, etc. Anything fluid will evolve. It is a matter of physics more than religion. Equal and opposite action/reaction etc.

 

So for anyone to continue to defend creatonism, they would have to be suggesting God 'created' the Earth, including all its physical properties such as evolution. The Adam/Eve scenario and Noah's Ark tales would only make sense if at the time the laws of physics had been more lenient to such 'magical' or 'Godly' acts. So unless we are to believe that all fossils, erosion, star based temporal data etc is just a painting made by God when he created the Earth... 

 

Time seems to be eternal, or at least unbound by any visible force or beginning/end. Thus time itself would have had to be created with the Earth, which seems rather unlikely. If I was a gambling man I wouldn't put too much on the Garden of Eden story

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Now don't be too hard on myths.  They keep the people quiet when really hard questions are asked that can't be answered in the current era.  Creation myths will do when the people can't fathom some action that can then be attributed to the gods. 

 

It wasn't all that long ago that there were only four elements: earth, air, fire, and water.  At one time, combustion was attributed to phlogiston, an unknowable property of air.  Then someone in the 18th century discovered that air was a mixture of gases, one of which is now called Oxygen instead of Phlogiston.  Times change, eh?  Knowledge evolves.

 

And always remember that some snarks are boojums.

[KonstantinII 1,106]

The theory of evolution is not for everyone, I say

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Resurrection of a dead thread is not a thing one should do.  Evolution has so much evidence going for it, that only political correctness keeps it from being called the Rule of Evolution or the Law of Evolution.

[MandelSoft 2,769]

Well, this thread was dying... guess it didn't make the cut for natural selection

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Scientific Theories are te best explanations for their corresponding observations. They have been proven time and again and never disproven. Theories provide the "how," Laws are for calculating "how much," and none of them really provide the "Why." I subscribe to the main theories but also to the Rare Earth hypothesis in order to back intelligently backed earth-centric evolution. Think about Earth being the only "save-game" in a distant Spore galaxy and all the other planets being tier 0-2 habitable (no intelligent life, only basic and hardy lifeforms).

--Ocram

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well, I certainly don't go for this nonsense about creation in a given image.  If life required an intervention by some supreme being, then it was still started as a simple organism in the sea.  What we have now is an orderly progression through survival of the fittest.

 

Considering what is happening now in our "high" civilization with all the unfit children with life-threatening allergies and other deformities, maybe we have reached the limit and now it is time for another species to replace us.  No organism can long survive in a climate of its own waste.

[KonstantinII 1,106]

political correctness keeps it from being called the Rule of Evolution or the Law of Evolution.

So then it's not a theory now is it? Evolution, in having the status of a theory is up for grabs. Anybody could rebuke it and provide another more correct theory. Ah, but to prevent that from happening we must make it an unbreakable LAW, or DOGMA. That is ,sadly what has been made by the gargantuan beurocracy of official science that we have today. They are upholding a theory with no real evidence supporting it.

[MandelSoft 2,769]

That is ,sadly what has been made by the gargantuan beurocracy of official science that we have today. They are upholding a theory with no real evidence supporting it.

Here's where things go wrong. There's no lack of evidence, but rather an abundance. Evolution is so powerful, it's not only applicable to life, but it's a general rule in the universe. Intelligence can speed up the process, but in every situation with chaos, but with set rules, laws and constraints (e.g. physical laws and constraints), evolution occurs. Live evolves, economy evolves (good companies thrive, bad companies go bankrupt), language evolves, culture evolves, religion evolves (how ironic!), technology evolves, heck, even the universe evolves! It's a slow but certain process of change that can be seen everywhere. If you look around you, you can practically see the process of evolution everywhere.

It's not just a theory, it's a fundamental universal law.

[KonstantinII 1,106]

You are confusing two entirely different ideologies, the progression of the whole entire universe, and the supposed evolution of all living creatures from a mythical common ancestor.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

You are confusing two entirely different ideologies, the progression of the whole entire universe, and the supposed evolution of all living creatures from a mythical common ancestor.

You are entitled to your beliefs and you have the right to free speech but that does not give you the right to be taken seriously when spouting out nonsense based off ignorance or blind faith. You have obviously never passed any reputable biology courses. I won't judge you for that. You might be too young to attend such classes.

Artificial selection is a fact and the theory of evolution through natural selection originally stemmed in part from the observation of artificial selection. By looking at fossils, observing various species in the wild, looking at cells under microscopes, and doing research through artificial selection, scientists have proven time and again that species evolve and that life on Earth has evolved over the years.

Evolution will never have any associated laws because there will never be any mathematic equations to make any reliable results on any qualitative DATA. Gravity has associated laws but also has associated theories.

Anyway, I am a Christian and I believe that God brought order from the chaos, performed the miracles to give life to Earth, and tended to the Earth to make it hospitable and create humans. God is usually subtle. I understand that I am not a typical Christian. I am more like a Deist.

--Ocram

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Evolution is unquestionably true, and everyone sees it and believes it in their daily lives, even if when it's called "evolution" they suddenly stop believing it.

 

You hear it when someone is pregnant. "He'll grow up handsome and funny like his father." You hear it in other places "Oh, from the Johnson family. You can tell a Johnson from a mile away." Or at family gatherings, "He has his mother's beautiful eyes." I think it's indisputable to everyone that parents pass down traits. Not only physical traits but behavioral traits as well. Whether behavior and personality is a matter of nature or nurture, it's accepted that parents pass these things down. As the saying goes, "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree."

 

So hopefully it's established that parents pass traits down to their children.

 

And obviously some traits are good and some traits are bad. The supermodel astrophysists woman who does standup comedy as a hobby and donates the proceeds to charity is going to end up with a higher quality man than the stupid ugly rude woman. People look for other people who have things in common, a lot of good qualities, and a minimum of bad qualities.

 

In our daily lives we see examples of how people hitch up, and we see examples of how parents pass traits on to their children.

 

The natural and inevitable consequence is that parents will pass traits down to children who will select their mates based on their positive traits, who will then have babies who will have even more positive traits, who will also find mates with positive traits, and over many generations you have high quality people having kids and making even higher quality people.

 

This is evolution.

 

In order to not believe in evolution you need to think that parents do not, in any way, pass down traits to their children. And you have to believe that people getting married do so without any consideration for their partner's traits.

 

 

Or if that's too much to think about, you can just ask yourself: "where do dogs come from?"

 

Humans manually bred wolves into dogs. Wolves with traits that humans liked were bred with other wolves that had traits that humans liked until eventually they changed enough that they stopped being wolves. To not believe in evolution is to not believe in the entire existence of dogs. If you don't believe in evolution and you want to continue in this debate I think it's very reasonable to insist that someone explain where dogs came from.

[Indian007 25]

Religion has no place in society, one it teaches segregation two it's the reason we have people flying planes into buildings, thinking they are going to go to heaven to get a bunch of virgins. It is nothing more than Jewish folklore, just like humpty dumpty, or little red riding wood. Fairy tales. As an individual religion may be good, but as a community it destroys us.