mipro Barry Sanders Project

[nofunk 1,933]

Vlasky, I don't think the commercial is deceiving at all. It certainly isn't any more deceiving than photoblogs featuring only abandoned buildings or articles speaking only of Detroit's demise. Would you believe it if someone said the southern US is all Republican? Or that the Middle East is all muslim extremists? In the same vein, do you really think Detroit is all abandoned buildings and blight? Just because you see lots of pictures of Detroit's abandoned buildings doesn't mean that's all there is, or that the positive images in the Chrysler commercial aren't real.

I think the commercial did the city a great justice by balancing people's impressions of the city. None of those shots in the commercial was composed, or made up -- they were all real images of a real city.

Of course Detroit has blight and abandonedment -- I deal with it everyday in my job, and will be the first to admit it. But it also still has grandeur and vitality and the Detroit region still holds considerable wealth (Oakland County, for example, still ranks as one of the top 5 wealthiest counties in the United States.) Detroit is composed of good and bad: it has abandoned buildings, yes, but it also has grand (occupied) skyscrapers, beautiful mansions, interesting shops and restaurants, and cultural attractions.

At the end of the day, Detroit is a city like any other, full of regular folks who get up every morning, go to work, and try to make a life for themselves.

If anybody wants some extra credit reading, check out this great article by The New Republic: The Case Against Economic Disaster Porn.

[Evillions 552]

I really thought you would show the one as him being a puppet, I loved that one.

Anyways, it's nice to see all of you back! Good luck!

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

These videos are very compelling, and offer a different perspective on the "situation". Sure as hell makes me want to be one of the "crazy" kids in the video who move to the city

Thanks for that link Nolan!

[Jasoncw 11,949]

I've seen Todd's link before and I think it does a good job of showing the city's arts scene and its attitude.

There's some historical footage and commentary at the begining of Todd's link, which is from Detroit's 1965 Olympic Bid video.

www.archive.org/details/DetroitC1965

Obviously Detroit is a different city today than it was 45 years ago, but almost all of the things that the video highlights are actually still around and if another video were made today they would share a lot of the same material.

[nofunk 1,933]

Hey everyone! Finally, an update.

Got some significant work done on the Davidson Block, which is a commercial building located in Bay City, Michigan. This will be the first BSP BAT that isn't located in Southeast Michigan / Metro Detroit.

And don't worry: I haven't forgotten about the Cadillac Tower! I just need to get motivated to make the billboards prop and sit through the whole export process and it'll be ready. So close!

[nofunk 1,933]

flip?

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

Lookin' good!

The "white" looks fantastic. The roof is a little flat/pale when looking at it in a screen shot, the gray background is deceptive! Perhaps bump up the contrast (and leave the resulting darkening effect).

Well, I might as well post what I have done on my only current BSP project. I haven't worked on it in a while, and it probably won't be done for some time (I know, I'm such a slacker!). At least you all will know that I haven't completely bailed on any new BSP projects!

The name should be easy to fiure out.

Most textures are still placeholders and I need to add much to the roof and left side. Eh... all in good time. This is a weird, not-quite-w2w corner w2w that should be interesting to use in game. The open space between the "block" at the back left side and the front of the lot has some covered loading bays and some other neat stuff, so it should be interesting how people use it once it is done.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Loving this work guys! Great job!

[Jack_wilds 550]

Thank you guys...

a few wonderful bats to watch develop; that will eventually arrive on the stex... looking expectantly for the Cadillac tower as the teasing is getting to be almost too much...

a creamery/dairy -v good,  you'll need Bessie the cow to pose as the company logo... slack you maybe but not too long as the creame has a short shelf life...

just popping in to say hi, so -Hi!... bye

Jack

[jpj_starfleet 3]

Great job guys as always, I have all your creations.... Have you ever thought of doing any train stations? like the old Fort Street or Michigan Central stations?

[nofunk 1,933]

Thanks everyone!

Todd: I *love* that buiding! The details along the parapet walls and the loading side of the building are fantastic!

I worked on the night lights for the Davidson Block. I think this is nearly ready to export, but I am going to wait until after the conversion to ST 7 to upload it to the STEX.

[AlexandrosB13 184]

Night lights look great. As you said i think this is very very close to be exported,and it is very close to be perfect,because i dont have something to suggest. I like textures and everything looks really nice to my eye.

[Vlasky 1,803]

Great job Todd and Nolan!

It's interesting how tiles on facade of the Davidson block seem more prominent in night render (opposed to day render)

I'll try to keep my answer short (answer about the city of Detroit): Thanks for links. They are very interesting. and I'm surprised that jackass made a documentary. But it's a good documentary. One thing should be kept in mind tough. The 'new life of Detroit' is actually underground scene, and those appear in cities in demise, just to make decadence more charming (and I do love underground scenes and subcultures). Look at NYC in 70's, exactly same thing. What Detroit needs is Ed Koch !

Those 'white kids' are fun and optimistic but with no real power unfortunately cuz we live in a corporate word not hippie commune (not saying it's bad). As you all know old Rome wasn't struck by earthquake and nothing similar destroyed it. It was citizens of Rome who took one piece of marble after another piece of marble from temples for their own needs and they were the ones who turned great Forvm Romanvm into a field so their cattle can eat. That's what I don't like, uprooting history. And there isn't connection between commercial and this little documentary project. One is mainstream other is underground scene. Sorry, but you have proved that there is life in alternative forms in Detroit, not that it's not falling apart. And I don't see things in black and white, but devastation Detroit went trough is i massive scale. Please don't hold this against me (as Brit would say ) and sorry for off topic

[nofunk 1,933]

Unfortunately most people's only conception of Detroit is through the lens of popular media, which I think we all can agree is never a full or true account. What I can say is that I live and work in the city every day: I go out to lunch with coworkers; spend time with friends; attend events and visit attractions; go out to restaurants and bars; interact with people. I rarely, if ever, feel unsafe. My typical day is no different than other people in other cities. For as much dying as Detroit has done since the 1950s, it still does a lot of living. I am certainly not trying to ignore the fact that Detroit is a struggling city -- it absolutely is -- but it absolutely is not the post-apocalyptic shell of a city that the media make it out to be.

But whatever, I'm not here to change minds. I'm here to make BATs!

Once the new STEX is up and running, the Davidson Block will be making its debut!

[Francis90b 748]

Nofunk:

Wow!

The Davidson Building turned out very well!

I saw the real thing, and i think it's really a nice building!It also has some very subtle ornaments and reliefs, in particular in the central bay...you did a very good job at re-creating them.

The only thing i could say (hope i'm not too late) is that maybe it would be a good idea to tone down a little further the junction lines between the terra cotta tiles, so to highlight the reliefs-decorations a little more!

I also saw that there's the Bell building on the list...it's a great choice!

Also, i'm pleased to discover a new building (i did never notice this building before)!

Todd:

Fairmont creamery company looks amazing! Can't wait to see the parts you still need to model!

May I ask where is it located?

[Jack_wilds 550]

Nofunk...

Thumbs up high for the Davidson Block plus a ducky for good measure...

As for the state of Detriot... I choose to be optimistic, as there is alot of unseen and unreported promise... I have a cousin -who runs in some Detroit circles that are in know, told me a number of things and its very, very, very encouraging... as the developments happen over the ten years, everyone will get on the bandwagon, even the cynical pessimists of today... The future for the City of Light is glowing bright, one just needs the eyes to see...

Jack

  Edited March 1, 2011 by Jack_wilds  

[Jasoncw 11,949]

Detroit has its problems of course, but even with those problems Detroit is still basically a normal city. Yeah, there are abandoned buildings and empty lots, and there are hipsters and underground scenes. But for every hipster there's a bunch of typical office workers in cubicles (in occupied buildings, no less!).

There are inner city parks where the drug dealers hang out and there are inner city parks where people go ice skating or fishing or jogging or enjoy water features, with a large number of these people actually being families.

And for all of the decline, the region is still pushing 6 million people, and the city itself is still the 11th biggest in the US by population. The State of Michigan (which is more or less driven by Detroit (apologies to the rest of the state!! lol)) has a GDP of 734,000, which is (to help Vlasky make a comparison) over 18 times greater than Serbia's. If it were a country its GDP would make it 37th in the world, beating out quite a few respectable countries, despite it being the western world's poster boy for decay.

But anyway, the point is that even though Detroit is declining, it's still a big and busy place, and even though it has its problems, the vast majority of people lead normal lives.

[kellydale2003 2,276]

Detroit has its problems of course, but even with those problems Detroit is still basically a normal city. Yeah, there are abandoned buildings and empty lots, and there are hipsters and underground scenes. But for every hipster there's a bunch of typical office workers in cubicles (in occupied buildings, no less!).

There are inner city parks where the drug dealers hang out and there are inner city parks where people go ice skating or fishing or jogging or enjoy water features, with a large number of these people actually being families.

And for all of the decline, the region is still pushing 6 million people, and the city itself is still the 11th biggest in the US by population. The State of Michigan (which is more or less driven by Detroit (apologies to the rest of the state!! lol)) has a GDP of 734,000, which is (to help Vlasky make a comparison) over 18 times greater than Serbia's. If it were a country its GDP would make it 37th in the world, beating out quite a few respectable countries, despite it being the western world's poster boy for decay.

But anyway, the point is that even though Detroit is declining, it's still a big and busy place, and even though it has its problems, the vast majority of people lead normal lives.

That's very true. I've visited the three major cities in the Great Lakes Region within 3 weeks.

Chicago is the most populated, Toronto coming second, and Detroit coming third in the Great Lakes Region.

Detroit without a doubt was pretty much active just like all the other cities.. Historical houses were being sold for $1, now they're being renovated and sold for $500,000+ USD.

The downtown was clean, and snow was removed just like any other active city.. and there was a lean amount of police presence.

Despite it's decay, I didn't see any "dead" areas. Sure there's low income business's pretty much everywhere.. there was quite a bit of constant traffic (24/7), and a lot of people presence.

Detroit was more relaxing than Chicago, and Toronto was definitely busier than Detroit.. but Detroit was by far a beautiful historical city.

I was surprised to see the Mariott moved into the GM headquarters in Downtown Detroit.. and that hotel was pretty busy!

I think the jewel will swing back and fourth and Detroit will bloom in the future. It's in a great location, right now property is cheap, and the population has an opportunity to get rich.

Remember, during the big depression.. People thought New York would founder!

New York became poor, torn with crime, abandoned buildings, it became a mess, and people thought it would be a failed city. Instead, it became an opportunity. It's how billionaires such as Donald Trump had the opportunity to make it big. Like I said.. The jewel will swing back in their direction. It's only a matter of years before Detroit will see a new light at the end of the tunnel.

[Vlasky 1,803]

I never meant to get into friendly fire but what the heck. This conversation started to feel very personal, so I will reply to it as it was a matter of personal discussion.

@ Nofunk: My intention wasn't to make Detroit look bad, nor to suggest that my impression of Detroit is negative. All I know about it is trough you and Jason, and you are the ones who introduced me to it and got me interested about it. (Tourist organisation of Detroit should give you some money cuz I'm not the only one). I'm well aware of wrong image media manipulation and stereotypes create. I live in a country and am of nationality who both have been demonized by western media and politics for the last 20 years. SO yes I'm very well aware of that. (for example the people from all over the world who attended summer school here last year expected me to have stereotype russianlike English accent and even asked me if I lived in US because of my accent and they expected Belgrade to look like Baghdad or a big Stallin block, and were surprised how 'European' it looks. Americans expected to be blamed for Daytona, bombing, Kosovo self-proclaimed independence etc and have hostile encounters with Serbs and were surprised by friendliness). If anything I'm sorry that your city has gone trough that darkness. I'm on Detroit's side. I find it charming and I feel it personal because what makes a good city great is it's history, and let's face it, other than NYC, San Francisco and Detroit, not many have it. (I'm talking about history of the city, not historic events that took place in it).

@ Jasoncw: I have nothing against hipsters, I just want to make that clear. If there wasn't for theme Detroit probably would'tn have it's authentic subcultural cultural scene. Thank you Jason for your effort to help me understand economic situation in Michigan, but now, after that I fell I need to explain position my country is in. After 1st WW Serbia lost 3rd of it's population and after 2nd WW as well (mostly men - translates to workforce, but women and children as well in 2nd WW numbers going up to 500 000 in one concentration camp only), both of which took place on it's territory. Belgrade alone was bombed both in 1st and in 2nd WW not to mention 1999. bombing. This country was torn by the last war from 1990 to 1999 and not to mention it was under international embargo from 1993. to 2000. And all of industry that survived 90s was systematically destroyed in 1999 NATO bombing which lasted everyday for 3 months. Latest thing being forced secession of 17% of it's territory, so go figure that. So if you count all the years that there was wartime in Serbia in 20th century you'd be surprised that out of 100 years 25 was wartime here. Now that GDP doesn't look that bad, now does it?

And with this I conclude my part in this discussion, being aware of the huge off-topic caused by me, I sincerely apologize to everybody. I believe the message to everybody is: don't believe in everything you saw on TV.

[tagtag 12]

I was in law school in Ann Arbor 10 years ago. I recall being surprised by Detroit then, and seriously considered living and working there. I ultimately chose better weather in LA. I will say that some of what I saw in Detroit was shocking, and probably would be to many Americans. But I'm from a sunbelt state. Americans from the sunbelt are used to cities like Houston and Dallas and Atlanta that are throwing up new skyscrapers everywhere and growing daily. For people from cities like that it's unusual to see the "emptied out" cities like St. Louis, Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, etc. In Dallas and Houston people keep moving IN. In those rust belt cities people keep moving out. That's why Detroit looks so bad to many Americans. They're just used to cities going the other direction.

Yet for all that Detroit is quite a bit more densely populated still than Houston or Dallas or Atlanta. And there are plenty of cities in the SW that are shedding population and dealing with abandonment with the bursting of the housing bubble. There are empty skyscrapers in Miami, too.

[Jasoncw 11,949]

The BSP thread is a place to talk about Detroit, so I don't think the conversation is too off topic, but I think the conversation has run into a dead end.

Here's a round up of some my WIPs since it's been so long. I've been doing some BATing on non-BSP BATs behind the scenes the last month, but the last BSP BAT I worked on was 1001 Woodward, which was in November (!!). Both 1001 Woodward and The Pavilion are mostly completed, and I'd like to get working on them again.

The other WIPs I've got going are the Penobscot Building (tall art deco tower) and The Kean (short art deco tower), and I actually do plan on finishing those this year, lol, but not until later.

[tagtag 12]

The BSP thread is a place to talk about Detroit, so I don't think the conversation is too off topic, but I think the conversation has run into a dead end.

Here's a round up of some my WIPs since it's been so long. I've been doing some BATing on non-BSP BATs behind the scenes the last month, but the last BSP BAT I worked on was 1001 Woodward, which was in November (!!). Both 1001 Woodward and The Pavilion are mostly completed, and I'd like to get working on them again.

The other WIPs I've got going are the Penobscot Building (tall art deco tower) and The Kean (short art deco tower), and I actually do plan on finishing those this year, lol, but not until later.

What happened to the Cadillac Tower? That thing looked incredible. So many good ones. The David Broderick tower, the Book Tower, the David Stott building, the Guardian Building, the Buhl Building. The great thing about Detroit is that it has the great buildings, but the skyline is not so imposing that they get lost in it.

[Francis90b 748]

What happened to the Cadillac Tower? That thing looked incredible. So many good ones. The David Broderick tower, the Book Tower, the David Stott building, the Guardian Building, the Buhl Building. The great thing about Detroit is that it has the great buildings, but the skyline is not so imposing that they get lost in it.

The Cadillac tower is being made by Nofunk...sooner or later he will post about it.

I agree with your considerations about Detroit's skyline.

[Jack_wilds 550]

Jasoncw... as always you know how to tease...

I am particularly watching the 1001 Woodward, I looked it up online for pics and also my cousin sent me pics of it so I can see some of its design intents... I still think its a rather odd structure, but that international modernism...

later...

Jack

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

All creations are looking great as always.

[gutterclub 2,729]

1001 looks great, awesome stuff!!

As for Detroit..hipsters and abandoned buildings..it sounds right up my alley! I've just finished a year in Auckland and am looking at spending a year working in Toronto later in the year so am sure a Detroit visit should be on the cards.

Wish there were more talented BATers creating teams for "unpopular" Cities, it really opens your eyes.

[nofunk 1,933]

The State of Michigan ... has a GDP of 734,000...

Not sure where you got that number, but what I found puts Michigan's gross domestic product (GDP) at $368 billion.

I never meant to get into friendly fire but what the heck. This conversation started to feel very personal, so I will reply to it as it was a matter of personal discussion.

@ Nofunk: My intention wasn't to make Detroit look bad, nor to suggest that my impression of Detroit is negative. All I know about it is trough you and Jason, and you are the ones who introduced me to it and got me interested about it. (Tourist organisation of Detroit should give you some money cuz I'm not the only one). I'm well aware of wrong image media manipulation and stereotypes create. I live in a country and am of nationality who both have been demonized by western media and politics for the last 20 years. SO yes I'm very well aware of that. (for example the people from all over the world who attended summer school here last year expected me to have stereotype russianlike English accent and even asked me if I lived in US because of my accent and they expected Belgrade to look like Baghdad or a big Stallin block, and were surprised how 'European' it looks. Americans expected to be blamed for Daytona, bombing, Kosovo self-proclaimed independence etc and have hostile encounters with Serbs and were surprised by friendliness). If anything I'm sorry that your city has gone trough that darkness. I'm on Detroit's side. I find it charming and I feel it personal because what makes a good city great is it's history, and let's face it, other than NYC, San Francisco and Detroit, not many have it. (I'm talking about history of the city, not historic events that took place in it).

Vlasky, I apologize if you felt like this became personal. I certainly didn't intend for that to happen. I think perhaps that as Detroiters we have become so used to having to defend our city -- our home -- that sometimes we may be quick to jump. So many of us work very hard to make the city a better place to live, and I guess sometimes I feel like it is my duty to show people the other side of Detroit: the side that isn't all abandoned buildings and crime. I understand that being from Serbia, you have to do the very same thing when talking about your home! Please don't feel that I was attacking you, because I really wasn't. And for what it's worth, I think it's great that we can discuss issues like this in the BSP thread.

What happened to the Cadillac Tower? That thing looked incredible.

The Cadillac Tower is still alive!!! I just need to quit being lazy, finish the billboard and put some lights on it and it'll be ready to export!

[LivingInThePast 364]

1001 looks great, awesome stuff!!

As for Detroit..hipsters and abandoned buildings..it sounds right up my alley! I've just finished a year in Auckland and am looking at spending a year working in Toronto later in the year so am sure a Detroit visit should be on the cards.

Wish there were more talented BATers creating teams for "unpopular" Cities, it really opens your eyes.

Right. When the Omnibus comes back online, I'm going to try to do one of the things I wanted to BAT...stuff in Waco, Texas.

[Jasoncw 11,949]

opps that was a typo!

I meant to write 374 which is probably from a different year from your 368.

And I see you've updated your avatar! Looking sharp! I need to do the same.

[iowndiscti 141]

Vlasky, I apologize if you felt like this became personal. I certainly didn't intend for that to happen. I think perhaps that as Detroiters we have become so used to having to defend our city -- our home -- that sometimes we may be quick to jump. So many of us work very hard to make the city a better place to live, and I guess sometimes I feel like it is my duty to show people the other side of Detroit: the side that isn't all abandoned buildings and crime. I understand that being from Serbia, you have to do the very same thing when talking about your home! Please don't feel that I was attacking you, because I really wasn't. And for what it's worth, I think it's great that we can discuss issues like this in the BSP thread.

This is so true. since I’m from Detroit, I find myself constantly lecturing [and sometimes even defending] my city when I’m talking to my friends from L.A. I find myself giving the “Detroit is so much more than the abandoned building from the transformer movie or eight mile road from the Eminem movie"speech. [At least 3 times per 2 weeks]. Then they get in the “isn’t the whole city poor" mode, and then I find myself following up with the “my home values quadruple's what your parents make in a year" speech [seeing as live right outside of palmer park.] I think that, since Detroit was one of the first cities to decay betwixt two centuries in north america [late 1900 - early 2000's]people have not learned how to process the fact that for a city of close to 1.2million, this was actually a VERY SHORT TIME! It gives Detroit the illusion ofbeing an "infinite Insufferable Hellhole" when this is not the case.Detroit itself may have some rough patches here and there, but overall, it’s a diamond in the rough. Potentially, any major type of business [whether it beindustrial, commercial, etc] could come here and thrive, they'll instantly find a suitable workforce, have little problems with resources or shipping, and would have room for mega-expansions. what people don’t realize is that instead of a city in despair, were more like a city that has more history, interesting architecture, and unlimitless potential than probably any other city in north America.

This is why I’m glad that this project [bSP] still exists; it allows people to see the city for what it was, and what it can be. I'm pretty sure it’s hard to see from the outside [because media shrouds us in death anddespair] but this is truly a great place to live. Keep up the Great Work BSPteam! I’ll be back and forth occasionally to check up on you guys

[ by the way, if anyone says "Detroit is poor" you should say " well this may be true, but i'll bet you'll think about the city next time your driving your Car on the Freeway while listening to Music when taking your grandfather to the hospital because he's having an Heart attack ]

(edit: the "browse all stex files " link on the first page is broken i think

double edit: aww, no book tower? im really sad now!!!)

  Edited March 12, 2011 by iowndiscti