Worst City Planning

[nycsc4 5,250]

St. Louis isn't that great either.

All their main arteries through the burbs are always bad during rushhour and they need to be expanded. What they did with the new I-64 is nice but they should have widened it more. 70 is always bad and it gets sketchy at times going down no-co to the city, but the express lanes are helpful every once in a while. There is also a crapload of construction all the time. And don't get me started trying to get around downtown when anything is happening there.

Going to have to disagree with this. While our highway traffic can be bad it's usually backed up for no more than 3-4 hours a day (unless there is a major accident). The inner-core (Inside 270 Loop Freeway) has great public transportation including Bus, express bus, and expansive light rail that goes to North, South, and Central Counties and then the entire Central Corridor of the City, and eventually into Illinois (LRT expansion deeper into North and South City/County and West County is needed though). While I would agree that the City of St. Louis' streets can be somewhat confusing you only need to drive them once or twice to figure them out. If your outside of the 270 Loop (Deep South and North Counties and West County) good luck. Judging by your username I would imagine you live in Suburban St. Louis. The City isn't very difficult to get around, no matter what is going on down there, considering it's infrastructure was built to accommodate 900,000 residents. Today there are only about 320,000 in the City, while the County's under-built roads have to deal with a population of 998,000. I don't understand why folks in the burbs (the ones who are likely to complain about City traffic) don't take the light rail into Downtown for Cards, Blues, Rams games, and other major events. You can drive halfway to the City and park your car for free at most Park & Ride Lots. The light rail is cheaper drops you off at the front door of every major attraction Downtown (or at least within walking distance) and you don't have to park your car downtown. I know this last one is important to folks in the suburbs. The train itself is safer than driving anyway. Then again not everyone sees this. I agree with you about the artierals in the suburbs however expansion would be a waste. St. Louis County's population is shrinking as population moves out further west. Overbuilding is a stupid thing to do. Build better public transit and take more cars off the road and your solving several St. Louis problems at once. Less Cars, less traffic, less smog, and a better healthier environment. Suburbs are like a giant ponzi scheme. You take more and more money to build more roads and infrastructure further out and then you realize you don't have any money left to service the roads and infrastructure that are already in place. This is why roads in West County are better than roads in North County. While St. Louis County pumps money into West County (the only developing section of St. Louis County anymore) it doesn't have enough to place into older suburbs to maintain what we already have, hence the crappier roads in the Northern and Southern parts of the County. We need to stop building out. It's unsustainable and as the massive baby boomer population begins to age we are going to be faced with a massive problem. Suburbs, not just in St. Louis but in America in general are NOT anywhere close to being set up to handle the challenges ahead. You may not believe it, most people I know in Suburban St. Louis don't. But I can promise you, it's coming.

[Kifflom112 355]

I have to say that San Antonio has terrible planning too. Where i live they build highway intersections with no overpasses. I will edit more in later.

[tcgchamp 0]

St. Louis isn't that great either.

All their main arteries through the burbs are always bad during rushhour and they need to be expanded. What they did with the new I-64 is nice but they should have widened it more. 70 is always bad and it gets sketchy at times going down no-co to the city, but the express lanes are helpful every once in a while. There is also a crapload of construction all the time. And don't get me started trying to get around downtown when anything is happening there.

Going to have to disagree with this. While our highway traffic can be bad it's usually backed up for no more than 3-4 hours a day (unless there is a major accident). The inner-core (Inside 270 Loop Freeway) has great public transportation including Bus, express bus, and expansive light rail that goes to North, South, and Central Counties and then the entire Central Corridor of the City, and eventually into Illinois (LRT expansion deeper into North and South City/County and West County is needed though). While I would agree that the City of St. Louis' streets can be somewhat confusing you only need to drive them once or twice to figure them out. If your outside of the 270 Loop (Deep South and North Counties and West County) good luck. Judging by your username I would imagine you live in Suburban St. Louis. The City isn't very difficult to get around, no matter what is going on down there, considering it's infrastructure was built to accommodate 900,000 residents. Today there are only about 320,000 in the City, while the County's under-built roads have to deal with a population of 998,000. I don't understand why folks in the burbs (the ones who are likely to complain about City traffic) don't take the light rail into Downtown for Cards, Blues, Rams games, and other major events. You can drive halfway to the City and park your car for free at most Park & Ride Lots. The light rail is cheaper drops you off at the front door of every major attraction Downtown (or at least within walking distance) and you don't have to park your car downtown. I know this last one is important to folks in the suburbs. The train itself is safer than driving anyway. Then again not everyone sees this. I agree with you about the artierals in the suburbs however expansion would be a waste. St. Louis County's population is shrinking as population moves out further west. Overbuilding is a stupid thing to do. Build better public transit and take more cars off the road and your solving several St. Louis problems at once. Less Cars, less traffic, less smog, and a better healthier environment. Suburbs are like a giant ponzi scheme. You take more and more money to build more roads and infrastructure further out and then you realize you don't have any money left to service the roads and infrastructure that are already in place. This is why roads in West County are better than roads in North County. While St. Louis County pumps money into West County (the only developing section of St. Louis County anymore) it doesn't have enough to place into older suburbs to maintain what we already have, hence the crappier roads in the Northern and Southern parts of the County. We need to stop building out. It's unsustainable and as the massive baby boomer population begins to age we are going to be faced with a massive problem. Suburbs, not just in St. Louis but in America in general are NOT anywhere close to being set up to handle the challenges ahead. You may not believe it, most people I know in Suburban St. Louis don't. But I can promise you, it's coming.

everything you said about the baby boomers is very true, i wish more people would prepare for the challenges ahead.

[ericdavidson17 0]

Northern Nevada Spaghetti Bowl, Reno intersection of US-395 and I-80

That is getting a lot better though with the new construction... Traffic in Reno is never really too bad. The one thing they needed to do, in my opinion, is make McCarran bigger where I-80 on ramps are.

[Titanicbuff 1,262]

I'd have to say the Worst City Planning goes to my home city, a city in Texas, where the city planners don't expand roads when they have the chance and insist of gobbling up every single square foot of space and mercilessly four-laning roads without giving anything a darn...trees, houses, drainage, parking lots, it's got to go! The question is, is your city worse?

My town put the library at a blind curve, the high school out of town on land that has made the track start crumbling dispite being only a few years old, and the grocery store out along the edge of town. The Middle School used to be the high school and sits accross from the library by a wierd intersection. Accross from there is a gas station with its parking lot making it impossable to back out of( by the way, the library, school and gas station is 2 blocks from my home.) The town has only 3600 people with 200 homes on the market, and only anteque stores for downtown businesses.

Google Florence, CO and take the vertual tour to see what I mean.

I live in St. Louis and its not so much the planning of the city and the planning of STLMetro, more the condition of the roads and the naming of streets in Downtown STL.

If you are going by street names in Downtown St. Louis, they say it is the hardest city to get around in because not enough of our streets are numbered.

Missouri has some of the worst roads in the country - luckly MODot (Missouri Dept. of Trans) got 1 billion dollars to fix them, so they are much better and the worst freeway in STL is getting torn out next spring, for a bigger better, brand new one. bout time.

but as for capacity and usage, our freeways are pretty good. I-64/US-40 is the one getting torn out, and US-40 out in the county just got widened again. St. Louis City and STLMetro have a total of 7 freeways so that helps. (I-64 | I-70 | I-170 | I-270 | I-44 | I-55 | I-255)

I tend to agree with you. The I-70/I-64 innerchange sneaksc up on you in such a way that you nearly kill yourself. Nice city though. Been there.

titanicbuff

[Zeck180 18]

Where I live (very small town less, 1,000 ) More homes have been torn down than built in the past three years, our streets have got to be worse than those in a third world country, it must be true because some one from town came back from Afghanistan and said our streets are by far worse! google Allison, Iowa, lovely town kinda.

[andersonjp 0]

Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. Peninsula city. Two bridges, and a very small isthmus. The main freeway into the city ends just off the peninsula, and then you have to navigate through residential roads to get downtown. 60 000 people living on the peninsula, and 400 000 people driving onto the peninsula every day. There are a total of 13 lanes on 7 roads onto the peninsula, including the two bridges. Do the math. 400 000/13. over 30 000 vehicles per lane on average going into the city every day

  Edited December 12, 2011 by andersonjp  

[Jazzmaster 716]

The 10 Least Reliable Roads in the United States

[Jack³ 291]

One of the worst planned highways I've ever seen is the Elgin-O'Hare Expressway. It doesn't connect to Elgin or the O'Hare airport. I suppose they'll "eventually" finish the highway. But for now, Route 20 is the best way to take to get around Elgin.

From Wikipedia: Contrary to its given name, the expressway does not enter either Elgin or O'Hare International Airport, giving it a somewhat infamous reputation as a "road to nowhere".

[Odainsaker 2,134]

One of the worst planned highways I've ever seen is the Elgin-O'Hare Expressway. It doesn't connect to Elgin or the O'Hare airport. I suppose they'll "eventually" finish the highway. But for now, Route 20 is the best way to take to get around Elgin.

From Wikipedia: Contrary to its given name, the expressway does not enter either Elgin or O'Hare International Airport, giving it a somewhat infamous reputation as a "road to nowhere".

Sadly, that dehumanizing picture says all that is typical and wrong with much planning today, regardless of whether the particular roads mentioned reach where the signs claim. Such a dead and bleak built environment is inhumane and a crime against human habitat. That millions of public funds have been spend to build such scenes is mind boggling. It's also now simply commonplace and widely familiar, which offers frightening avenues in the field of environmental psychology regarding how our built environment may condition and warp all of us who have been raised in or reside in it.

We deserve better!

  Edited March 27, 2012 by Odainsaker  

[blaster395 0]

When I visited Egypt, something that really stuck out was that EVERY building was half finished, even inhabited ones. Basically, a few supports stick out the roof that look like they should lead to an extra floor that doesn't exist. I think it has something to do with not needing to pay taxes on buildings that are still 'under construction'.

[Calvss 27]

Your problems are nothing compared to the city planning of Metro Manila, Philippines. Imagine using a NAM street roundabout (2x2) to intersect 8- lane avenues. There is even another avenue, around 6 lanes wide on each side and the speed limit is set to 30Mph which has serious congestion problems. Even then, instead of increasing the speed limit to accommodate more cars, the city decides to widen it even more, leaving electric poles, and pedestrian overpasses ending in the middle of the road.

[Linoa06 1,374]

I love how people designate Paris as a crappy designed area, but it's got the mass transit to make up for it - we don't need numbered streets and well defined lanes like in your pretty US cities

The greater Paris area is however much less pretty - most housing is West of Paris and most work places are in the East, that makes pendular moves a hell, whether using the ringroads (there are three layers), or the S-Bahn / U-Bahn (one of the subway lines is in fact, outside Japan, the busiest in the world) and mass transit suffers from a lack of financing.

But uh, people despising Paris for its lack of numbered streets and proper lanes? The same people who designed LA, for sure.

[stlsuburb 2]

I live in St. Louis and its not so much the planning of the city and the planning of STLMetro, more the condition of the roads and the naming of streets in Downtown STL.

If you are going by street names in Downtown St. Louis, they say it is the hardest city to get around in because not enough of our streets are numbered.

Missouri has some of the worst roads in the country - luckly MODot (Missouri Dept. of Trans) got 1 billion dollars to fix them, so they are much better and the worst freeway in STL is getting torn out next spring, for a bigger better, brand new one. bout time.

but as for capacity and usage, our freeways are pretty good. I-64/US-40 is the one getting torn out, and US-40 out in the county just got widened again. St. Louis City and STLMetro have a total of 7 freeways so that helps. (I-64 | I-70 | I-170 | I-270 | I-44 | I-55 | I-255)

I live in St. Louis and its not so much the planning of the city and the planning of STLMetro, more the condition of the roads and the naming of streets in Downtown STL.

If you are going by street names in Downtown St. Louis, they say it is the hardest city to get around in because not enough of our streets are numbered.

Missouri has some of the worst roads in the country - luckly MODot (Missouri Dept. of Trans) got 1 billion dollars to fix them, so they are much better and the worst freeway in STL is getting torn out next spring, for a bigger better, brand new one. bout time.

but as for capacity and usage, our freeways are pretty good. I-64/US-40 is the one getting torn out, and US-40 out in the county just got widened again. St. Louis City and STLMetro have a total of 7 freeways so that helps. (I-64 | I-70 | I-170 | I-270 | I-44 | I-55 | I-255)

Do you really consider I-255 I270 different highways? sure they might be signed that way but its pretty much the same thing. And MO highways are not that bad compared to other states (some in Ohio are esp. sketchy)

And yes dwtn is very hard to navigate at some times, mainly because of the railyard that cuts it in half and inefficient numbering system. But the worst city? No, definitively not

[nycsc4 5,250]

I live in St. Louis and its not so much the planning of the city and the planning of STLMetro, more the condition of the roads and the naming of streets in Downtown STL.

If you are going by street names in Downtown St. Louis, they say it is the hardest city to get around in because not enough of our streets are numbered.

Missouri has some of the worst roads in the country - luckly MODot (Missouri Dept. of Trans) got 1 billion dollars to fix them, so they are much better and the worst freeway in STL is getting torn out next spring, for a bigger better, brand new one. bout time.

but as for capacity and usage, our freeways are pretty good. I-64/US-40 is the one getting torn out, and US-40 out in the county just got widened again. St. Louis City and STLMetro have a total of 7 freeways so that helps. (I-64 | I-70 | I-170 | I-270 | I-44 | I-55 | I-255)

I live in St. Louis and its not so much the planning of the city and the planning of STLMetro, more the condition of the roads and the naming of streets in Downtown STL.

If you are going by street names in Downtown St. Louis, they say it is the hardest city to get around in because not enough of our streets are numbered.

Missouri has some of the worst roads in the country - luckly MODot (Missouri Dept. of Trans) got 1 billion dollars to fix them, so they are much better and the worst freeway in STL is getting torn out next spring, for a bigger better, brand new one. bout time.

but as for capacity and usage, our freeways are pretty good. I-64/US-40 is the one getting torn out, and US-40 out in the county just got widened again. St. Louis City and STLMetro have a total of 7 freeways so that helps. (I-64 | I-70 | I-170 | I-270 | I-44 | I-55 | I-255)

Do you really consider I-255 I270 different highways? sure they might be signed that way but its pretty much the same thing. And MO highways are not that bad compared to other states (some in Ohio are esp. sketchy)

And yes dwtn is very hard to navigate at some times, mainly because of the railyard that cuts it in half and inefficient numbering system. But the worst city? No, definitively not

You do realize that post was from 2006. A lot has changed in 6 years my friend. lol.

And where did I mention worst City in any of those posts? Please read before posting. Oh, and in 2006, our roads SUCKED in MO. Many of them still do.

  Edited July 22, 2012 by nycsc4  

[AprilDawn 2]

Okay, so I feel I have something to add to this discussion as a lifelong mass transit (primarily bus) rider. I've lived in two cities/states, those being Fresno, California, where I lived for about 15 years until I moved to Everett, Washington. Now, neither of these cities are huge transit hubs, but I've had plenty of experience with both of their transit systems.

While neither of these cities are LA or Seattle, or NYC, or any city considered to be BIG to the point of having tons of skyscrapers, I have had to live with their mass transit systems and can compare the two.

Fresno is grid based, for the most part, with bus lines on most of the main streets. The busiest lines run mainly north to south, most lines ending/starting somewhere in the downtown area and the northern shopping hubs. The busiest east to west routes are often very close to schools/shopping.

One problem Fresno has had during the years that I lived there was that during busy times (Before the start of school and just after School lets out)is that the buses in the Fresno Area Express fleet, simply don't have the capacity to deal with the large number of youth that use the buses to get to school, and Fresno Unified School District has something called a magnet program and just about each High School has some sort of specialty which attract students from outside each school boundary. Add to that, that the school boundaries for the high schools are quite large, and school buses are only used in some parts of town within a school boundary. So most students not near a School Bus stop, who are further than a major intersection away, either ride the bus or get a ride from their parents unless they have a bike or similar transport.

Another issue, for a long time, was that the buses didn't run late enough. For a while most routes ran till about 10 pm but I hear that due to budget cuts the hours have been cut since the last time I was in Fresno. I also read that Fresno was planning on putting in some Rapid Bus Transit on the busier corridors. I haven't checked the status on the project in several months. Generally, though, most places worth getting to are on a busline or close enough to one that those who would prefer not to drive for whatever reason, could, in fact, manage without a car except in a middle of the night emergency. But most places there aren't open 24/7 anyway.

Now as for Everett, WA. As you may or may not know Everett is a city north of Seattle and while it is quite smaller than Seattle, many people pass through from further north or east to get to work and we have Boeing in town as a major job location. There are transit companies that meet up at Everett Station not counting Amtrak trains and Greyhound buses. First would be Everett Transit, which mostly serves the residents of Everett. Secondly would be Community Transit which operates throughout Snohomish County connecting places further away like Arlington, Snohomish, Edmonds, Mill Creek, etc. Third there is Sound Transit, which is mostly for commuters as their services mostly connect major transfer hubs like Everett Station, to Seattle, and Seattle to jobs like Boeing. Then there is a connection to Camano Island's Island Transit, and a connection to Mount Vernon via Skagit Transit.

Due to the economy, Community Transit does not run on Sunday. Also, where I live is connected by only a 1 way route which also does not run on Sunday, likely due to the fact that it connected to a Park and Ride served mostly by Community Transit. The

[Pennyguy101 19]

Scranton, PA's highway system is as bad as washington DC's traffic

[Superbacon 380]

One of the worst planned highways I've ever seen is the Elgin-O'Hare Expressway. It doesn't connect to Elgin or the O'Hare airport. I suppose they'll "eventually" finish the highway. But for now, Route 20 is the best way to take to get around Elgin.

<a id="cke_53" class="cke_off cke_button_justifyright" "="" href="" title="Align Right" tabindex="-1" hidefocus="true" role="button" aria-labelledby="cke_53_label" style="outline: none; margin: 0px; padding: 3px 5px; border: 0px; background-color: transparent; width: auto; height: 18px; border-collapse: collapse; vertical-align: baseline; cursor: default; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; display: inline-block; ">

Last auto saved: 14:34:01

From Wikipedia: Contrary to its given name, the expressway does not enter either Elgin or O'Hare International Airport, giving it a somewhat infamous reputation as a "road to nowhere".

Sadly, that dehumanizing picture says all that is typical and wrong with much planning today, regardless of whether the particular roads mentioned reach where the signs claim. Such a dead and bleak built environment is inhumane and a crime against human habitat. That millions of public funds have been spend to build such scenes is mind boggling. It's also now simply commonplace and widely familiar, which offers frightening avenues in the field of environmental psychology regarding how our built environment may condition and warp all of us who have been raised in or reside in it.

We deserve better!

Haha yeah. It's Elgin though. I'm from St. Charles two cities south of Elgin and I often find myself going through Elgin to get to the I-90 or US-20. I don't like the Elgin area at all. It's cluttered and there's always construction going on in some major road artery. Plus it's pretty ghetto. Fortunately if I want to get to O'Hare I just hop on the I-90 and that'll take me right to the airport parking garage. US-20 is good for getting to Schaumburg.

[Xascul 7]

just curious for everyone here: what are the criiteria that you use to say "this city is the worst planned?" for example, a lot of you guys mentioned large metropolises like chicago, or tokyo, or paris. there are millions of people living there so no matter what there is going to be lots of traffic, but these cities also have a decent to good amount of mass transit, LA i can agree with, since that's where i live, and yeah we have some mass transit as well, but when the freeways don't even work as well as they should since if you've ever seen a map, there are plenty of east west routes, but very few north-south routes, which make for nightmares if one jams up. i've been to chicago and boston and madrid for example, but in all 3 cases i took mass transit which was very cheap, efficient and most importantly, it got me to where i needed to go

[Avskygod0 2]

New Belgrade district in Belgrade

Oh god it's a navigation nightmare,mostly due to some tiny unlabeled streets and confusing signs. It has also "blocks" but they are not placed in any rational order. Block 1 is right next to block 48 i think. Also,not really a city,but there is this "infamous" corridor 10 we are trying to finish for years,i just wonder how will they pull it of when they reach the mountains

  Edited August 24, 2012 by Avskygod0  

[Linoa06 1,374]

I snicker at those people who call a city "misshappen" because there's no numbered streets. Seriously, are you that lazy not to be able to remember Wall Street and Vernon Square?

[Titanicbuff 1,262]

My hometown has narrow streets and od angled roads. on look at the planning map reviels some strange angles- http://www.florenceco.govoffice2.com/vertical/Sites/%7B1349C3AD-3029-4971-B421-8AF5DF6EF4AD%7D/uploads/%7B15478627-68C6-43E3-86C1-8B16ED42D3B6%7D.PDF

[LivingInThePast 364]

I think when I talked about my city it was relatively mild from a "worst city planning" standpoint (I'm the OP). But there are several problems that have arisen: a road that was supposed to be the west bypass is getting more and more crowded: even with multiple expensive overpasses there's no way that it can be a true highway, due to the fact that that this wasn't possible, this thing developed, a 1996 proposal to actually build a true west-northwest freeway was defeated a long time ago creating a highway that literally just connects two roads and goes nowhere, due to zoning, it creates concentrated residential blocks and a block of commercial, etc. etc.. Pity.

[TekindusT 3,809]

I snicker at those people who call a city "misshappen" because there's no numbered streets. Seriously, are you that lazy not to be able to remember Wall Street and Vernon Square?

In fact, I find much more difficult remembering number street names than "baptised" street names. "That place was at W 37th or W 38th? Or it was at E 38th?"

[jason w 14]

Originally posted by: ilikehotdogsalot From Google Earth, Washington D.C looks well planned, but when you drive there, That's a whole different story.

In Paris too

Paris has one of worst traffic in Europe

Bumper cars!

[mrsmartman 200]

A midtown airport like this:

 

A City without Urban Planning

[flatron 83]

 

Originally posted by: ilikehotdogsalot From Google Earth, Washington D.C looks well planned, but when you drive there, That's a whole different story.

In Paris too

Paris has one of worst traffic in Europe

Bumper cars!

 

It's in fact all pretty great. You just give way to the vehicle that's to your right. The rest is respecting each other and you get through it quite fast. Of course, if even the simplest roundabout confuses you, marked lanes are the way to go

[TekindusT 3,809]

A midtown airport like this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

As far as I know, Kai Tak wasn't a badly planned airport. It was planned in a time when Hong Kong and Kowloon still hadn't experienced the drammatic growth they went through. It happens the same with huge factories that, in a beginning were placed at the edge of the city and now they're part of the inner city and get demolished to build a park or something.

[RipRap 4,400]

A midtown airport like this:

Adding to what Tekindus said, Kai Tak closed when the new airport at Chek Lap Kok was built. It is now being redeveloped by Hong Kong Authorities. As for the Kowloon walled city, like its Kai Tak counterpart, it was demolished and got replaced by a park. So both of these structures were not existing anymore.

To continue on with the Manila's argument of being the worst city planned, Manila is being plagued with a lot of transit-related problems with LRT and MRT trains stalling, and the MRT system in particular hitting the end of the line and into the street.

Traffic not only on the road, but also for waiting to the train

So full that people walked on the tracks!

As for the only commuter rail in the country, yeah, only 6/50 trains in it are running...

[Thin White Duke 4,072]

A midtown airport like this:

 

 

Well, I don't know if you know, but Kai Tak has been demolished and turned into a cruise ship terminal/cyclone shelter. The new Hong Kong airport, Chek Lap Kok, is located a good way outside the city to avoid overgrowth for the next years to come.  *flies away*