Mixed Use Developments! Might be possible!!!

[matthewcherry83 0]

OK, mixed use developments are something Maxis definitely forgot about in their final product.  Mixed use developments, namely downtown type buildings with floor level retail space and above level living areas, are very common in cities.

 

I've got an idea to implement this concept in game.  I'll start with it's inhereit downsides- it will be ploppable only, and in all actuallity it will be 2 lots or more, not one combined lot (will appear to b eone lot visually), and 1x1 developments will not be possible, and may promote menu clutter if not designed and distributed well

 

This idea stems off of the concept already used in using buildings as props to create sky-walks over roads,  or buildings to fit 45 degree intersections, such as Thelord's Tri-Link Tower.

 

The illustration (quick sketch) will probably be most helpful in explaining this, but i'll throw some wordage in here too.

 

MUD=Mixed Use Development

C=Commercial

R=Residential

 

To create a 1 wide x 2 deep MUD, you would need to create 2 actual lots. a 1x1 C and a 1x1 R.  The entire building would be placed on the commercial lot as a prop, and developed to overhang that lot and cover the R lot in front of it.  The R lot would be created to be completely transparent, or perhaps transparent base texture with minimal props on it so that it can be identified or spiced up slightly.  This R lot would be plopped next to the road frontage (R lots need road frontage), and the C lot would be plopped directly behind it. (Note that the C lot will need some kind of transit enabled access, whether it be a road, bus stop, parking lot, etc...)  This should produce one building visually in a 1 wide x 2 deep space despite the fact there are actually 2 lots.

 

This idea can be expanded upon immensely, and is not limited to commercail and residential.  Another idea may be to make a C-R MUD that includes parking by incorporating a 3rd lot.

Yet another idea to play with, especially with the idea of C-R MUDs in particular, is to use prop families.  In the example illustrated and explained in this post, perhaps several different store frotn props could be tied together into one family so each time the R-Lot is plopped, it creates a different store front for the floor level.

 

In addition, a custom query for the lots would probably be very helpful, at the very least with a small diagram indicating where the seperate lots that comprise the MUD should be placed/found.

 

Hope everyone is understaning what I am trying to say.  I can try to elaborate further if need be.

 

Unfortunately, this is just an idea that has been formulating in my mind;  I haven't the knowledge, time or resources to actually create anything myself yet.

 

Hope this idea takes off and maybe a few ambitious BATters/Lot makers can come up with some nice things.  I know i'd take the little extra time and complication it involves just to pseudo-implement the concept of mixed use within SC4.  If i find spare time, i am going to learn the tools and knowledge in order to try to develop these myself

 

The sketch:  (includes sketh to show how a 2 wide x 1 deep (or deeper if you want) might be developed)

https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//mixedusebw2.bmp align=baseline border=1>

 

[SYM Productions 7]

Yes... I had thought of that too... it actually would be VERY feasible... I had done a collaboration BAT with one of my friends for a massive mixed-use tower, using that very idea.  But the render got too massive and we just dropped the project.  Three months later my computer crashed and we had to wipe all the drives... anyway long story short that BAT is no longer in this world but I guess I could re-do it and use your technique...

Thanks for posting this it might sprout some ideas...

 

- CDI_spy , leader of SYM Productions

[Superchan 23]

sounds great, except it probably won't work unless maxis fixes the plopable residental bug, but we might be able to make some, if we use growable lots, like appartments next to a store, then we might be able to get some kind of mixed use.

[matthewcherry83 0]

Date: 1/21/2006 12:40:02 PM Author: superchad

sounds great, except it probably won't work unless maxis fixes the plopable residental bug, but we might be able to make some, if we use growable lots, like appartments next to a store, then we might be able to get some kind of mixed use.

quote>

 

I am not very familiar with the 'Residential Plop Bug' unfortunately, and was not aware it would cause such an interference.  I am not sure exactly what this bug does or exactly what it does, but i read around a little bit.  A few suggestions were that the plops would abandon due to education/workforce discrepancies, since the new lot would begin in the red level of education.  If this is the case, is it possible ot make a ploppable Residential lot that can support any 3 of the wealth levels, thus much decreasing its chances of abandoning?

[Ramona Brie 121]

I tried to plop a Ryan Apartments in game, but the game crashed....

[ElBarto92 7]

I thought of someting very similar a while ago, although your's makes more sense and would probably look better (mine was interlocking parts on seperate lots, your overhanging props would look much nicer). The residential plop problem can be worked around - it is generally believed that if you zone for residential, let something grow, then plop over that, your building won't be abandoned. My BAT skills are hardly good enough to take that on, but I hope someone considers it.

[Daeley 46]

Date: 1/22/2006 1:33:49 PM Author: ElBarto92 I thought of someting very similar a while ago, although your's makes more sense and would probably look better (mine was interlocking parts on seperate lots, your overhanging props would look much nicer). The residential plop problem can be worked around - it is generally believed that if you zone for residential, let something grow, then plop over that, your building won't be abandoned. My BAT skills are hardly good enough to take that on, but I hope someone considers it.

quote>

I've tried this before and it didn't work. Even IF (big if) the building doesn't abandon, this doesn't mean anything. The sims inside the building don't seem to be able to leave it so they won't find a job (like say, nextdoors at the commercial plop).

[jackel.22 3]

interesting, regarding teh transit issues, couldnt you do a lot editor work around?

 

eg, a 4x4 blank lot  (= is a road)

 

##

##

==

 

then place a 2x2 comercial building here

 

##

c c

==

 

then add a 4x4 res building that would over lap the comercial (but crucially unlike the co$ it would be 2 stories)

 

 

first floor (c/r is a overlap)

 

r r

c/r c/r                  

==

 

second floor

 

r r

r r

==

 

 

basically both buildings would have road access, just the comercial shop would have to be brought slightly forward so that the front is visible, and the rest of the co$ should be covered up with the res building. ok its pretty vague but i hope you can see what im saying

---

 

 

 

[JayStimson 212]

This is an interesting idea. Something to play around with when I get some time. On a technical note:
The R buildings will have to be growable. Just the way the game engine works. But there may be a way for this idea still to work.
There's a mod or tool, i forget which, that allows different plugin folders for different regions.
If ... when you wanted grow your MUD R lots, you could have your plugins folder only contain these special R growable lots. The maxis R lots could all be disabled with a .dat file in the plugin folder by setting the growth stage to FF. Forthose that mod, I'm sure you're following me. All your MUD R lots could contain invisible buildings with the C lot using an overhanging prop (the building you really want to see) covering the R lot. You could have a set of MUD R lots of different wealth and occupancy values ... depending on what you'd want to grow. Otherwise, this idea should work just fine (technically anyway). I would also place the C and the R lots side by side instead of front and back. Makes the road/transit access easier.
The downside (there's always one isn't there ?) is:
You'd have to enter, exit, enter, exit, etc. the game with your plugin folder configured appropriately each time. A bit annoying for sure, but if someone really wanted to do this, it could be done. While in actually, MUD isn't really happening, it sure would look that way. Even the route query would give this appearance.
That's my $.02. About what it's worth.

If I get a chance over the next couple of days I'll do a quick test to illustrate and post a pic here. A functional landmark and a 1x1 R should work pretty well to show it works. A 1xr R lot with 500 occupants would be cool. lol And the commute time would be great !!!

[Ramona Brie 121]

Actually, you have just opened massive possibilities for SC4. Why? The commerce could be the first floor, and the offices could be on top!

[matthewcherry83 0]

Date: 1/22/2006 3:09:37 PM Author: JayStimson

...

I would also place the C and the R lots side by side instead of front and back. Makes the road/transit access easier.

...

 

 

It indeed would be easier, but i proposed that particular example for a MUD with only 1 tile of road frontage.  2+ tiles or more of road frontage makes it easier, and would not require transit access in the rear of the MUD for the commercial part of the building.

 

As for the idea of effectively neutralizing all other buildings and only growing the custom growables could work, but at the same time, unless lots of time and effort are taken to make all other residential zones in the city historical, the player runs the risk of these pre-existing zones growing over with custom growables.(terrible run-on sentence, sorry ;-) )

 

Now a question/proposal... is there a way to make plugin or mod that will iterate through all residential lots in the city and make them historical, and change them back as well?  If so, this could be a 'quick' (but not really so quick, still exitting and loading) work around to this issue.

 

Quite obviosuly, if there is a semi-pheasible option to implement R based MUDs, it is going to hold many inconveniences.

[matthewcherry83 0]

Date: 1/22/2006 6:36:52 PM Author: Tracker Actually, you have just opened massive possibilities for SC4. Why? The commerce could be the first floor, and the offices could be on top!

quote>

 

Now, you are absolutely right, regarding this, according to my knowledge at least.  The idea of MUDs (i think) should be able to be completely implemented with any other type of building or zone other than resdiential.  Using the method i have proposed, (and the rest of the community hopefulyl is further developing ;-) ), I see no reason why a CS/CO MUD would not work properly.  A CS/CO MUD with it's own transit building too, such as parking or bus, or subway.

 

Hopefully at least community members will capitalize on this possibilty.  I have spent some time over the past week educating myself about lots/bats/props and drowning in exemplars and co-horts, and yada yada yada.  I refuse to create anything that is not up to current simtropolis quality, so it wll be some time before i can produce anything.

 

I have yet to scour the forums, but if anyone knows of any specific tutorials i should be submerging myself in, feel free to lemme know

[JayStimson 212]

Date: 1/22/2006 9:56:39 PM Author: matthewcherry83

I have yet to scour the forums, but if anyone knows of any specific tutorials i should be submerging myself in, feel free to lemme know

quote>
I would suggest Simgoober's tutorial on making functional landmarks. It's at the bottom of the list in the Omnibus.
https://www.simtropolis.com/content.cfm?mode=omnibus&view=126
Also, RalphaeNninja's BAt tutorial on creating a simple box building. That's all you should need for the R lot.
https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=45927
One thing that's not mentioned in this tutorial is how to make the box building invisible. It's easy to do but I can't remember right now which menu it's in. If you can't find it, just PM me and I'll look it up for you.
If you get stuck, just holler. Good luck.

[matthewcherry83 0]

thanks JayStimson, I'll hop on those as soon as I can

[SimGoober 2,364]

Don't kill yourself on this.. it most likely will not work.  Many modders have tried since modding started to make a ploppable residential lot, it seems to not be possible.  Occasioanlly, one will appear to work (it doesn't abandon), but they don't actually function correctly, so it's for appearances only.

 

Nice idea though, and sorry to squash it...

[matthewcherry83 0]

Date: 1/22/2006 10:51:20 PM Author: SimGoober

Don't kill yourself on this.. it most likely will not work.  Many modders have tried since modding started to make a ploppable residential lot, it seems to not be possible.  Occasioanlly, one will appear to work (it doesn't abandon), but they don't actually function correctly, so it's for appearances only.

Nice idea though, and sorry to squash it...

Indeed, as I have found out this has been the case.   However, IMHO, it is not quite an entirely squashed idea.  The idea should work with other combinations minus residential (which is what everyone surely desires the most, unfortunately).  Long and inconvenient workarounds, such as discussed above, might be possible.  That option would only be viable for a player that reallly really really wants to take the time to have the illusion of a MUD.

 

Nonetheless, I personally am at least interested in the prospect of hybrid commercial MUDs.  Thus i shall continue to pursue that idea.  Besides, it's about time i start to learn the insides and outs of SC4.

[the_SIMtastik_One 3]

I don't know if this will help or not since I have never been to successful with the BAT and know zilch about modding, but I think I have a work around for you. Rather than make a residential plopable, you could make a residential growable on an odd shaped lot. For example, I am aware of no growable that grows on a 1x5 lot size.

You could (as far as I know) make any kind of building you want as an overhanging prop on that lot. Then just have a plopable commercial, industrial, civic, or whatever lot you want to look conjoined. I think this would allow you to get past the res plopable delapadation bug. Hope this helps.

[matthewcherry83 0]

Date: 1/23/2006 12:01:51 AM Author: the_SIMtastik_One

I don't know if this will help or not since I have never been to successful with the BAT and know zilch about modding, but I think I have a work around for you. Rather than make a residential plopable, you could make a residential growable on an odd shaped lot. For example, I am aware of no growable that grows on a 1x5 lot size.

You could (as far as I know) make any kind of building you want as an overhanging prop on that lot. Then just have a plopable commercial, industrial, civic, or whatever lot you want to look conjoined. I think this would allow you to get past the res plopable delapadation bug. Hope this helps.

quote>

 

Yes, putting the Res part on an odd shaped growable could work, and could be designed to be completely nothign visually.  This could work for some, but severlely limits the lot sizes that can be used :-(  But nonetheless, for larger scale R Based MUDs, this could be pheasible.  Thank you for your input the_SIMtastik_One!

[Jasoncw 11,949]

^ I was about to say the same thing.

The downside is that, of course the building would be a 2x6.

Prop families could be used to help mix things up a bit too, but you'd need to make sure that all of the bottoms and all the tops line up and look nice with eachother.

I would love mixed use stuff, but all of this is so out of the way that it's not the same feeling as having a real mixed use lot.

We can only dream for Sim City 5...

[matthewcherry83 0]

Date: 1/23/2006 12:37:46 AM Author: Jasoncw ^ I was about to say the same thing. The downside is that, of course the building would be a 2x6. Prop families could be used to help mix things up a bit too, but you'd need to make sure that all of the bottoms and all the tops line up and look nice with eachother. I would love mixed use stuff, but all of this is so out of the way that it's not the same feeling as having a real mixed use lot. We can only dream for Sim City 5...

well the building could be an arbitrary size, really.  I am sure there are some kind of limits though.  But, say a 1x5 Res zone does not mean the whole MUD has to be 2x5.  it could be 5x5.  Hmmm.... I might be wrong here, but using this irregular zone work around might even allow for irregular sized MUDs...

 

like this

(given that the only 2x5 resdiential lot is the custom growable designed for the MUD)

=====

CCC

CCC

RRRRR

RRRRR

=====

where the MUD building prop would look like this.....

 

======

MMM

MMM

MMMMM

MMMMM

======

 

note that since the commercial building is entirely behind the RES zone here, it must have transit access from the back

 

LOL thanks for inspiring another possible idea

P.S.  I already entertained the idea of prop families.  you are right, it would be a great idea to vary street level building fronts

[Seven4 0]

Could you add another occupant type in a lot exemplar file? Then it would be one lot, but I assume its been tried?

[Seven4 0]

Ehy not make commercial props to fit over existing res growables?