Overlay Texture conflict?

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

I have a puzzling glitch in some of my modded lots from 2023, no matter how it appears in the Lot Editor, when I open up my city the overlay texture is all wrong. Even if I create a new lot the same overlay texture conflict occurs. It happens across a number of lots from 2023. 

 

What could be causing this and what is the remedy? I think the overlay tile is from the The Thing series of parks, I don't know why it's turning up in my lot? 

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

This is how it looks in Lot Editor 

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

It's this particular overlay texture popping up unexpectedly

 

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

Here is a separate lot with the same problem  the same overlay texture 

 

 

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

My only two experiences with anything sort of similar was CC that I'd downloaded from the STEX (a growable commercial building) and part of the Stonehenge would pop up right in the middle of it when it grew. The other was my first lotting project in PIM-X where I didn't understand that my texture placement tests were not replacing the overlays, but stacking them up and so in the game I'd see different ones at different zooms or just at different times. (The Maxis Open Paver does this deliberately.)

I don't know if the Maxis Lot Editor allows that to happen or not. It would at least be something to look into.

 

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

The errant overlay texture comes from this pack, from the PGX Textures 01 file. It has been updated since I downloaded the original, if I download the latest version, put it in my Plugins folder with a folder starting with "ZZZ", will it load the latest version? 

I'm giving it a go anyway...

 

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

It depends on how complex your Plugins folder is, but yes, in general ZZZ should allow its contents to load last.

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

That's what I'm hoping. 

My plugins are spread between the DAT packed ones in the Maxis folder and everything post 2023 that I haven't DAT packed yet is in normal plugins. 

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

The "ZZZ folder" thing didn't work

Back to what you were saying about Lot Editor being the problem, the glitched Lots are ones I've made in a virtual machine of Windows 7

Could the conflict be happening in THAT plugins folder, for some reason I don't notice it when making the lot but it shows up in the full game?

If so, how would I fix that? Find the old "textures.dat" and replace it with the new one? And then I guess fix the lots this effected? 

 

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

I'm mostly out of my league as I've only Lotted like 3 things.  

I'm fairly certain if you are seeing your correct textures in the Lot Editor then they have to already be present in your plugins. Now if there are textures with the same IID between what you want and what you see in the game, it seems those from the THING are loading last and we don't want them to.

But it's kind of just guessing on my part.

[Kel9509 1,363]

1 minute ago, CorinaMarie said:

I'm fairly certain if you are seeing your correct textures in the Lot Editor then they have to already be present in your plugins. Now if there are textures with the same IID between what you want and what you see in the game, it seems those from the THING are loading last and we don't want them to.

But it's kind of just guessing on my part.

That sounds right to me also.  In fact, it's a core principle of how textures can be overridden so ones with the same IID loading later can replace earlier-loaded ones.  That core principle is how @rsc204's terrain grass mods work.  For instance, his Terrain Grass Mod for Gobias Sudden Valley overrides many prior textures in order to replace them with ones that have the colors of the Sudden Valley terrain mod.

I'm not sure how datpacking half of your plugins would influence the load order.  Datpacking is not necessary with the use of DLL mods (not sure if you're running Windows version or not).  But if you don't need to datpack, don't do it.  That way you can manually edit the load order of things better, if needed.

I believe that the "Thing" (which I don't have) intentionally overrides certain textures in order to apply that mod more broadly.  So in a sense, it's working properly.  To use the Thing correctly, it probably should override whatever it needs to.  So you have a choice, to either use the Thing correctly and try to re-lot that building and find a texture that isn't overridden.  Or, abandon The Thing.

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

I could never abandon The Thing, it's integral to my city.  I'm happy to relot my recent lots but it needs to be with those overlay textures. 

 

Should I put my modded files using those textures in a ZZZ folder? 

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

No, that didn't work. 

 

And now, possibly related?

 

My Lot Editor isn't showing the prop families it used to, so far it seems limited to family of shopfronts that I use, but all my prop families are in one folder, why should this one disappear? 

 

Anyway, it is late where I am and that's all the mystery I can handle for today. Perhaps a sleep will make things clearer. 

[Kel9509 1,363]

You could try lotting with PIM-X.  It offers more control over things, I think, and you can select the subfolders you want to use.  

Putting your textures in a folder to load last might work, but you might want to try 4 Z's to ensure it's really last.  But if they're your textures then perhaps you should give them new IDs?  I'm not familiar with this stuff so maybe ask for help from those who do textures all the time.  

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

My Plugins folder is horribly over-bloated with stuff, I''ll take some time trimming it down. Lot Editor currently takes 45 mins to load and I think I'm pushing it too far. 

 

4 z's is an option, as is making my own texture IDs, if any of us know how, lol! 

I could never get Pim-X to work as a Lot Editor, must be something I'm doing wrong.

Some avenues to explore anyway, cheers!  

 

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

ho ho, I've been having a wild time with this file structure! 

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

Yikes!  

While I don't Lot much, I do know the recommended method is to have a clean Plugins folder with only the deps (textures, props, and such) that you actually need for your project.

Just for funzies, rename your current Plugins to something else, create a new Plugins folder, then copy in only what you need and see how that goes. While working with the limited Plugins go into a new city tile for any plop testing.

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

42 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

Yikes!  

While I don't Lot much, I do know the recommended method is to have a clean Plugins folder with only the deps (textures, props, and such) that you actually need for your project.

Just for funzies, rename your current Plugins to something else, create a new Plugins folder, then copy in only what you need and see how that goes. While working with the limited Plugins go into a new city tile for any plop testing.

that is exactly what I'm doing now in fact! 

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

2 minutes ago, Lazarou Monkey Terror said:

that is exactly what I'm doing now in fact! 

So I read your mind and posted about it.  

[11241036 5,097]

I don't actually know if I got this right:

Do the textures appear correctly in LE but wrong in-game?

Both textures are having the same TGI?

If yes, then there's, IMO, only one explanation possible, although I haven't been able to prove it (please forgive my bulky English). I've noticed that the game and the LE sometimes have strange loading orders, sometimes different than Windows is handling it: In the prop selections of LE, a capital letter comes before a lowercase letter, this is quite noticeable with Girafe's props which I'm using frequently. A capital Z even comes before a lowercase a. Also, if you are having the same file/folder name with only one difference - the gap between two letters being replaced by an underscore (_) - the underscore is loading last (in Windows, however, it is coming first). IMO, this strange behaviour is indicating that SC4 and LE are defining the loading order in different ways.

You may want to try replacing the ZZZ by zzz (or vice versa) and see what's happening. But other than that, content creators should IMO avoid such issues, anyway, and be aware of this override matter. That's the reason why the BSC texture range has been invented. I'm not so sure if this has been intentional (I've already uploaded mods that override SC4 or even my own textures, and I know why) because it looks odd enough to me that I'm thinking that this is just an oversight. Assuming I got this right, you should report this to pgxpgx.

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

That's right, the lots are looking fine in LE but when I play them in SimCity it's the same overlay texture that replaces any overlay texture from Pgxpgx that I've used for my own custom lots. 

 

Right now my virtual machine and windows 7 are not playing ball so I can't really investigate any Lot Editor issues. I feel cursed!  

 

What needs to load last, ie 'be in the zzz folder', is it the overlay texture dat file or the custom lots I've made? 

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

3 hours ago, Lazarou Monkey Terror said:

it's the same overlay texture that replaces any overlay texture from Pgxpgx that I've used for my own custom lots. 

About the overlay textures you want to use (and do see in LE), are they ones you created yourself? Or are they the standard ones from Maxis? Or from another texture pack?

What all would I need to download to see the exact same thing in my game?

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

13 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

About the overlay textures you want to use (and do see in LE), are they ones you created yourself? Or are they the standard ones from Maxis? Or from another texture pack?

What all would I need to download to see the exact same thing in my game?

Not my own textures, the ones from The Thing, which I use in my own lots. 

'PGX Textures 01' is the DAT file, I could tell you the overlay texture as well but my virtual machine has collapsed in on itself and I'm not messing with that until Monday!

"Creating my own textures" is on the list of things to learn, but first I need my Lot Editor working, lol! 

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

1 hour ago, Lazarou Monkey Terror said:

'PGX Textures 01' is the DAT file

I've got that now.

[11241036 5,097]

17 hours ago, Lazarou Monkey Terror said:

That's right, the lots are looking fine in LE but when I play them in SimCity it's the same overlay texture that replaces any overlay texture from Pgxpgx that I've used for my own custom lots. 

OK. I'm trying to help you, but this is really the weirdest thing I've ever heard of.

 

17 hours ago, Lazarou Monkey Terror said:

What needs to load last, ie 'be in the zzz folder', is it the overlay texture dat file or the custom lots I've made? 

The overlay textures files. Those that you want to load last. I even suggest that you actually rename the folder containing the texture files from the Thing by adding AAA at the beginning instead, as an experiment, so they will be overridden themselves.

Another, much simpler, explanation that I can think of: There is a bug in LE that actually makes you place two base textures on a lot although normally you can only place one. I don't know how this happens, but sometimes, after I was making some lots in LE, I found out that somehow, there were two base textures at the same tile. If that can be happening with overlay textures as well, this would explain it.

To verify that, you may want to upload one lot affected by this override issue and I'll quickly have a look. If possible, one with a lot size as low as possible, ideally 1x1.

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

PGX - WLP002M2 Straight wMonoRail_56ace8ea.SC4Lot

[Lazarou Monkey Terror 1,819]

(Hope that works) 

[11241036 5,097]

OK, that's even stranger, you don't even have that offending texture on this lot.

A few questions: Did you make this lot yourself in LE or did it come with the Thing?

Do you maybe still have some outdated files or lots in your Plugins folder?

I couldn't understand the Readme, but if I'm getting this right, this part of the Thing has been updated at some time during its development. If this is true, then maybe you are having a conflict with an old lot somewhere. You might want to consider uninstalling the Thing entirely (or at least this part of it) and then reinstalling the most recent version.

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

It is weird!  

I've used my Exemplar Parser and you do have exactly two textures on that lot. (There are no extras.) Here's the first one:

[18] =             {
     [1] = "Data_Type      = 0x300 is Uint32 "
     [2] = "Total_Reps     = 13"
     [3] = "Name_Value     = 0x88EDC904"
     [4] = "The_Name       = LotConfigPropertyLotObjectData"
     [5] =                 {
      Each_Rep_Value =                     {
             [1] = "0x00000002 is Texture"
             [2] = "0x00000000 is Level of Detail"
             [3] = "0x00000000 is South"
             [4] = "0x00080000      8.00000000 (X Location)"
             [5] = "0x00000000      0.00000000 (Z Location)"
             [6] = "0x00080000      8.00000000 (Y Location)"
             [7] = "0x00000000      0.00000000 (Xmin Bounding Box)"
             [8] = "0x00000000      0.00000000 (Ymin Bounding Box)"
             [9] = "0x00100000     16.00000000 (Xmax Bounding Box)"
            [10] = "0x00100000     16.00000000 (Ymax Bounding Box)"
            [11] = "0x00000000"
            [12] = "0xEA9A299A"
            [13] = "0x25901000"
        }
    }
}

^ I've highlighted the texture's IID as seen in the Lot Configuration Exemplar.

That one can be found in SimCity_2.dat.

^ Original Pic Name: 01-0x25901000.jpg

^ Image shown is the largest of the set of 5 so we can see it better.

 

Then the only other texture:

[21] =             {
     [1] = "Data_Type      = 0x300 is Uint32 "
     [2] = "Total_Reps     = 13"
     [3] = "Name_Value     = 0x88EDC907"
     [4] = "The_Name       = LotConfigPropertyLotObjectData"
     [5] =                 {
      Each_Rep_Value =                     {
             [1] = "0x00000002 is Texture"
             [2] = "0x00000000 is Level of Detail"
             [3] = "0x00000000 is South"
             [4] = "0x00080000      8.00000000 (X Location)"
             [5] = "0x00000000      0.00000000 (Z Location)"
             [6] = "0x00080000      8.00000000 (Y Location)"
             [7] = "0x00000000      0.00000000 (Xmin Bounding Box)"
             [8] = "0x00000000      0.00000000 (Ymin Bounding Box)"
             [9] = "0x00100000     16.00000000 (Xmax Bounding Box)"
            [10] = "0x00100000     16.00000000 (Ymax Bounding Box)"
            [11] = "0x00000000"
            [12] = "0xEA9A29A0"
            [13] = "0xF918010A"
        }
    }
}

This one is found in PGX Resources 01.dat:

^ Original Pic Name: 02-0xF918010A.jpg

^ Also showing the largest of the set.

 

Now the weird part is when plopping the lot we get a completely different texture:

^ Original Pic Name: 03-WrongTextureinGame.jpg

 

And we can find that one in PGX Resources 02.dat:

^ Original Pic Name: 04-0xF9182000.jpg

^ Largest of its set.

 

So then I remove 0xF9182000 thru 0xF9182004 from the 2nd textures file and now we are good to go:

^ Original Pic Name: 05-CorrectTexturesinGame.jpg

 

So in my limited knowledge, I believe there is some sort of code glitch which allows 0xF9182000 to override 0x25901000.  

I wonder if it's similar to the glitch which was letting Stonehenge appear in the middle of a CC commercial growable?

  Edited May 27 by CorinaMarie  
Re-Add Lost Pics

[11241036 5,097]

18 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

So in my limited knowledge, I believe there is some sort of code glitch which allows 0xF9182000 to override 0x25901000.  

I wonder if it's similar to the glitch which was letting Stonehenge appear in the middle of a CC commercial growable?

Actually, judging by how the lot looks like, it seems it is overriding 0xf918010a, not 0x25901000. However, there is something more important to consider that I just realized: That code glitch you mentioned is actually intended by Maxis. If the 5th digit of the 8-digit code is 1, 2, or 3, this texture is considered to be a wealth-dependent texture. That's how Maxis made it so base textures on growable lots look different when they are downgraded to a lower wealth level. I'm still puzzled of how 0xf918200 can override one of the two textures, though.

Edit: This would also explain why the lots look fine in LE but not in-game: The LE can only display the texture that will be replaced - not the other.

I'm tagging @pgxpgx now because imo the only sensible way to fix this is to alter the affected textures IID and modify all affected lots. This surely won't be fun because I'm talking about thousands of lots, but I can't see another way. In general: Do not make and release textures where the 5th digit of the IID is 1, 2, or 3, unless you know what you're doing.