Changing Occupant Size With SC4 Tool

[simcitynate 134]

I tried SC4 PIM Extended 2009 RC8 but I thought SC4 Tool might be more beginner-friendly. So if I were to make a change to the occupant size shown below (001b) would this program make the necessary re-calculations that PIM would so that all values would remain consistent with each other?   

[Tyberius06 12,209]

10 hours ago, simcitynate said:

I tried SC4 PIM Extended 2009 RC8 but I thought SC4 Tool might be more beginner-friendly. So if I were to make a change to the occupant size shown below (001b) would this program make the necessary re-calculations that PIM would so that all values would remain consistent with each other?   

Hi!

First of all, that's not the Occupant Size, that's the Capacity Satisfied property. But I thought it was already explained in the other thread what you openned.

In short, no, it won't recalculate stats. You can change them one by one, but it won't automatically change the other stuffs to remain consistent with each other. Currently that's only available in PIM-X if you are changing the filling degree property, which will automate the calculation process on all the relevant stats. 

Again what you are about to change is the Capacity Satisfied property.

The Occupant Size is the three dimensional values of the model used to be the base of the Building Exemplar. On the lot itself this building (with the building exemplar properties) shows up as a grey (maxis LE) or blue (PIM-X) rectangle. In PIM-X all the stat/property calculations are controlled by the Filling Degree which is based on a formula and the REAL occupant size of the model is a very important part of this formula. I'm highlighting the "real" because for technical and modding purposes one can change the occupant size (making it bigger or smaller - usually people want to make it smaller), as by default the given "real" occupant size will be the size of the building representative rectangle on the LOT. Ideally this change if it is wanted or necessary needs to be done before the creation of the lot itself (right click "create a new lot based on this building or family").

For example you have a building with a size of 128m x 56m x 75m, this is gonna be the real occupant size and this is going to be the size of the rectangle on the lot (the height won't be shown so really only the 128m - width - and the 75m - dept - are important values in this matter), except IF you change it to f.e. 12m x 12m x 12m. But you need to do this change BEFORE you create the lot, because once the lot is created it is going to use the Occupant Size that the building exemplar had upon creating the lot. You can change then the occupant size later on, but that won't change the size of the rectangle on the lot, which can lead to some serious issues, like the Immortal Lot Syndrom.
Here is the catch. If you create the LOT with this smaller OS, of course your stats will be out of range too, so to get the real stats for capacity satisfied and other properties, you need to recalculate the Occupant Size from the model (PIM-X does this), then setting up the filling degree properly will automatically calculate your stats. BUT here is the absolutely essential part: once you finished with the calculation and setting up the filling degree, you must change the Occupant Size back to the one that you used for creating the LOT - if it was smaller then the REAL occupant size, then you need to change the OS back to those smaller values. 

In short it is better not changing the Occupant Size (on existing lots), if you are not absolutely sure what you are doing. 

You can change the Capacity Satisfied property both in Reader and in SC4Tool manually, but that won't have automatically effect on the other properties, that's only possible with PIM-X and changing the filling degree. But to understand better what the Filling Degree is representing, read, please, the PIM-X Manual. 

- Tyberius

[simcitynate 134]

7 hours ago, Tyberius06 said:

First of all, that's not the Occupant Size, that's the Capacity Satisfied property.

Yes I'm aware. What I meant by "occupant size" was the maximum number of sims in the building. Perhaps I should go with "occupancy number" to be clearer. Anyway, looks like I'll have to consult this manual.    

[SIM-ple Jack 17,445]

35 minutes ago, simcitynate said:

Yes I'm aware. What I meant by "occupant size" was the maximum number of sims in the building. Perhaps I should go with "occupancy number" to be clearer. Anyway, looks like I'll have to consult this manual.    

I think the highest numbers I've seen are 9000 on a Res, 14k on a Com, and 28k on some kind of Dr. Vu/aeronautics Ind. lot. I guess the easiest way to find out is edit each lot to a million and see what number shows up in game.

[rsc204 21,836]

On 05/08/2023 at 9:07 PM, simcitynate said:

Yes I'm aware. What I meant by "occupant size" was the maximum number of sims in the building. Perhaps I should go with "occupancy number" to be clearer.

Why don't you just use the actual term for it, Capacity Satisfied, which around these parts means Occupancy? You can choose to be pedantic about not liking the term used, but it just increases the chances that you will be misunderstood.

As for using SC4 Tool, I wouldn't unless you can manually handle all these figures, which honestly without a fixed way of calculating them, you aren't going to get it right. Now you could work out the algorithm PIM or PIM-X uses, then use that as a basis to manually calculate things, but why would you? The simplest solution is just to let PIM-X do all this work for you, that's exactly why it was setup that way. Is there some reason why you don't want to use PIM-X?, it's literally the single best modding tool for SC4. Sure a few things it can't do, where you have to reach for Reader, but for novice modders, after a brief learning curve there really isn't an easier tool for most lotting needs.

[simcitynate 134]

I wasn't sure if people would necessarily know what was meant by "capacity satisfied" as I thought it could refer to other values as well. If it's crystal clear though, I'm fine with using it. 

I took a stab at using PIM-X but just wasn't finding it as straightforward as I'd hoped - certainly not as easy as Leprop or Reader. Looks like I'll have to learn all about the "filling degree" for this task. Is there a particular guide for this you'd recommend?   

[rsc204 21,836]

I think the point I was trying to make is simply that anyone who understands enough to answer your question, absolutely would know what Capacity Satisfied is. Which is why for both myself and Tibi, our first thoughts were to double-check that we're talking about the same thing. As such, especially because Occupant Size has a specific (other) meaning, it is confusing to use in this context.

I'm too lazy to check if the official PDF has been uploaded to the new LEX exchange yet, so I'll simply attach it here:

SC4PIM User Guide v1.pdf

This document explains everything regarding the Filling Degree, it's really quite simple once it 'clicks' with you.

So imagine that there is a 3D box around the model in question, that covers all the boundaries of the model. The idea is to estimate the percentage of that 3D box which is actual inhabitable space, that would be your filling degree expressed as a factor, where 1 = 100% and 0.5 = 50% etc. For example a garage wouldn't be living space, neither would a large roof or swimming pool. Of course you don't have to be super precise here, you get a feel for what works when you've done it a few times.

I don't know if I'd agree that it wasn't as simple as LEProp or Reader, the latter of which is only simple if you understand the data you are looking at. But like any new application, it takes a little time to feel comfortable with it, especially when it has a variety of powerful functions. Again the above guide walks you through making new Plop/Grow lots step by step, if that's something you want to do. But it's frankly the most ideal tool for harmonising all your content such that all related properties are balanced, mainly because it does almost all the work for you.

There is one small caveat, some folks use 'Blank' buildings on lots, occasionally too there is more than one Building (technically you can have but one Building, others will be added as Props). In those cases, there is a more complicated procedure that needs to be followed to make the PIM-X calculations work. I absolutely want to expand on my tutorial videos to show how best to process such lots, since it isn't so straightforward or covered in the manual. No idea when I'll find the time though.

[simcitynate 134]

Saying as I've already introduced the topic of capacity satisfied, I might as well ask, anyone know why creators tend to go with higher resident numbers than Maxis houses? It seems quite common even amongst the most popular architects like @mattb325 so I figure there must be a good reason.

Also, I came across this mod which looks intriguing. If anyone has tried this please let me know if you'd recommend it.  

  

[nos.17 5,177]

On 8/22/2023 at 4:11 PM, simcitynate said:

Saying as I've already introduced the topic of capacity satisfied, I might as well ask, anyone know why creators tend to go with higher resident numbers than Maxis houses? It seems quite common even amongst the most popular architects like @mattb325 so I figure there must be a good reason.

Also, I came across this mod which looks intriguing. If anyone has tried this please let me know if you'd recommend it.  

  

Most people (matt included) are using PIMX to create the lots and generate the occupancy stats, which is calculated using a series of calculations designed to roughly mirror Maxis capacities, and CAM. The occupancy is based on the size of the building, and for the most part they have a larger footprint than Maxis houses, hence the larger capacities.

As far as recommending population halvers/doublers/triplers/etc., there's always the warning that it has the potential to affect the demand simulations in unpredictable ways as R/C/I and everything else was designed to balance together. Also keep in mind if you have any custom content you'll need to modify them accordingly to the mod or suddenly all non-halved custom content will be extremely desirable to grow and nothing else will appear.