Can't Build Diagonal Rail Bridges with DBE NAM on Mac

[AndyBlue 21]

Hello all,

I'm trying to build a diagonal rail bridge connecting two parts of my city (NYC Maxis map, Rockaway peninsula to Queens) using the Diagonal Bridge Enabler plugin.  I have a good-looking diagonal avenue bridge over the drained water, but I can't get the rail network tiles to make a bridge to the other side.  I thought I was supposed to simply drag the rail network over the drained water channel using the rail tile, but whenever I drag the rail line to the point where the land starts to rise again, the rail line turns red.  I won't say how many hours I've spent trying to figure this out.  I'm also confused whether I need a starter piece or I need to first make an elevated heavy rail incline to start the rail bridge.  I've scoured the forums for any discussions of similar problems but couldn't find anything.

I'm also trying to figure out how to make a diagonal (elevated rail) bridge across a water channel (e.g. the A train runs elevated from Broad Channel to the Rockaway).  I'm reasonably sure the Diagonal Bridge Enabler plugin doesn't do this, but the elevated rail just stays at the bottom of the water channel.  I finally gave up and made a subway but the transition puzzle piece for elevated rail to subway is only orthogonal and not diagonal, so my elevated-to-subway sections look crooked.  Do I need to convert elevated rail to tram and then build a diagonal tram bridge?  I feel like finding and printing a list of every NAM puzzle piece as it is easy to overlook them.

I have the Mac Aspyr 32 bit version of SC4 (v. 1.2.1) and NAM version 38.  I though the Rockaway section of the NYC map was going to be easy and didn't expect that the diagonals were going to beat me to a pulp.

Thanks for any advice.

[rsc204 21,857]

5 hours ago, AndyBlue said:

I have the Mac Aspyr 32 bit version of SC4 (v. 1.2.1) and NAM version 38.  I though the Rockaway section of the NYC map was going to be easy and didn't expect that the diagonals were going to beat me to a pulp.

Any reason why you've not downloaded the 64-bit version? Yes, it does introduce some issues, but if you are using NAM 37+, most of those are solved. The best thing about the 64-bit version is that the Mac version can now seriously out-perform the PC version, assuming you've the hardware to handle it. Windows users are still stuck with a 2GB RAM limitation, which is starting to gum up the works. If you do this, try to have a path back just in case it doesn't work out, Time Machine should be able to assist you here.

5 hours ago, AndyBlue said:

I thought I was supposed to simply drag the rail network over the drained water channel using the rail tile, but whenever I drag the rail line to the point where the land starts to rise again, the rail line turns red.

Have you installed the RRW patch for the DBE? It wasn't released officially, but since NAM37+ is RRW only and RRW uses different IDs to the original rail, without this you won't be able to use the DBE for rail.

DBE RRW Patch.zip

[AndyBlue 21]

Thanks for the reply.  My Mac is five years old and still running High Sierra (10.13.16) due to compatibility issues with some programs I have that haven't been updated to 64 bit yet.  I thought that I couldn't run the 64 bit version of SimCity on my Mac, but I now realize that I should be able to run it- I think I have the last version of OSX that can still run 32 bit programs.  In any case, I'll try downloading the 64 bit version of SimCity and see how that works.  Hopefully it will stop the processor from running so hot and making the fans blow like a jet engine whenever I play SimCity.  I'll see whether my Mac can keep both versions.

I haven't installed the RRW patch for DBE but I'll give it a try tonight. Maybe that's all I need to use DBE for rail.  I hope that it can also fix the problem of not being able to make elevated rail bridges.  I'm glad that the patches and mods and plugins all are equally useable for Macs and Windows.  I'll report back.  Thanks again.

[AndyBlue 21]

OK, I checked my SimCity 4 version via System Information and Activity Monitor and both say that I have the 64-bit version and the copyright date now says 2020.  As I didn't reinstall the program, I suspect that the game checked there was a newer version and autoinstalled the 64-bit version.  I haven't noticed any difference with gameplay so that's a good thing.

I installed the RRW patch for DBE but I still can't draw diagonal rail bridges.  I noticed that the icon for dragging rail says DTR instead of RRW (I assume it should say RRW) and I thought that maybe the installation of the RRW didn't go through.  I started up the NAM installer JAR program and the RRW options are grey and not solid like the other options. Should I re-download and re-install NAM?  The other bridges (avenue, road, one-way) are all easy to build.  I'm assuming that the rail bridge doesn't use a starter piece and the starter piece will convert a basic bridge to an undertruss (or other) bridge.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[rsc204 21,857]

On 17/10/2020 at 1:00 AM, AndyBlue said:

I installed the RRW patch for DBE but I still can't draw diagonal rail bridges.  I noticed that the icon for dragging rail says DTR instead of RRW (I assume it should say RRW) and I thought that maybe the installation of the RRW didn't go through.  I started up the NAM installer JAR program and the RRW options are grey and not solid like the other options. Should I re-download and re-install NAM?  The other bridges (avenue, road, one-way) are all easy to build.  I'm assuming that the rail bridge doesn't use a starter piece and the starter piece will convert a basic bridge to an undertruss (or other) bridge.

DTR - Dual Track Rail, but it also means RRW, it's labeled as such to differentiate it from STR - Single Track Rail, another NAM option, but it's the same Rail tool, just with a new icon/name. Honestly if RRW didn't install right, then you won't be able to use it at all, it's greyed out because it's not an optional component, since RRW is the default and only Rail type supported by NAM 37 onwards.

If the DBE is still not working, I think it's most likely a Slope Mod is overriding the DBE mod. This can include the optional RRW Slope mod included in the NAM itself. Start by removing the following file from Plugins if you have it installed (just whilst using the DBE, be sure to replace it thereafter.): 

\Network Addon Mod\2_Additional Network Features\Rail (RealRailway)\c_RealRailway_Tunnel\Tunnel and Slope Parameters\RealRailway_SlopeParameters.dat

If that doesn't fix it, do the same with any custom Slope mod that supports rail you may have installed. Let us know how that goes.

[AndyBlue 21]

On 10/17/2020 at 7:14 PM, rsc204 said:

f the DBE is still not working, I think it's most likely a Slope Mod is overriding the DBE mod. This can include the optional RRW Slope mod included in the NAM itself. Start by removing the following file from Plugins if you have it installed (just whilst using the DBE, be sure to replace it thereafter.): 

\Network Addon Mod\2_Additional Network Features\Rail (RealRailway)\c_RealRailway_Tunnel\Tunnel and Slope Parameters\RealRailway_SlopeParameters.dat

Hello rsc204,

I tried your suggestion of deleting the RealRailway_SlopeParameters.dat file from the plugin folder and it didn't change anything.  My file was located in a different folder: 

\Network Addon Mod\2_Additional Network Features\Rail (RealRailway)\Tunnel and Slope Parameters\RealRailway_SlopeParameters.dat

Whenever I try to drag the vertical rail bridge, the error message that I get is "Failed Smoothing Terrain" when my rail line starts to go uphill (under the waterline).  I'm attaching a screenshot showing this in case it is helpful.

I don't know if it matters but a few of my tools tiles are doubled.  For example, I have two Railroad tiles, and two Diagonal Street tiles, among others.  I'm attaching a screenshot.  I read in another forum that this doubling may be due to duplicate controller installations.  I realized I have a plugin folder under "Documents" (from my original NAM installation from several years ago) and under "com.aspyr.simcity4.appstore".  I deleted the plugin folder under "Documents" but the bridge problem still exists.  I tried building a bridge in another city in the same overall region (Bklyn Bridge area), but that didn't help.

Thanks for any further advice you can provide.  

   

[rsc204 21,857]

At this point, I think it's pretty likely that the game setup is probably not the cause of these issues. However, even with everything correctly setup, the DBE can be particularly finicky when it comes to making bridges, specifically in relation to the angles and edges you wish to drag them over. Rail and some of the dual shared-tile setups seem to be the most difficult in my experience. Ideally, you want to follow the most recent readme, I edited that a few years back to make some specifics clearer. Sadly, I can't find the DBE in the current NAMDoc online, the images are missing from the older wiki, but the text remains at least.

Try just dragging rail from various points over the edge of a hillside/cliff, a bit of manual terraforming helps. If you can get the bridge started, even if only a tile or two from the edge, then the issue at play is that the land you are dragging over is not suitably terraformed to support such a bridge. For example in the lower part of your last screenshot there is a 'step', before the land goes lower once more. Also note, the stubs there would prevent a rail bridge from being built, but that could also occur when the stubs are one or two tiles away from the actual rail, because all such inter-connected pieces must either be correctly terraformed in advance or support the necessary terraforming to work. It's best if you aren't already, to remove a section before building the bridge to ensure it does not cause problems. If the bridge won't start at all, an absolute cliff from one-tile to the next works best, then mostly flat land in-between and a very similar heights for where both bridge embankments is often necessary too.

A quick search didn't reveal the missing images on my computer, but I always keep such things if I'm working on them, so they must be archived somewhere. I hope these tips are somewhat helpful, but if you are still struggling, one way or another, I'll get some images/video together so things are clearer.

[AndyBlue 21]

Thank you for the suggestions, RSC.  I'll give them a try over the next several days and will report my progress.  I can't get the bridge started so perhaps it is the lack of steepness that is the issue.  In any event, I'll report my progress.  Thanks again.

[rsc204 21,857]

On 10/26/2020 at 6:01 PM, AndyBlue said:

I can't get the bridge started so perhaps it is the lack of steepness that is the issue.

Try to go from a small level area on one side, with a sheer drop on the tiles next to the cliff edge. The Road-based bridges are more forgiving at terraforming automatically, but I find Rail needs a bit more manual work.

[AndyBlue 21]

Hi RSC, I've tried terraforming and still can't get a diagonal bridge.  I've attempted to build the bridge with and without the RealRailway_SlopeParameters.dat file enabled as you suggested above. The bridge just goes straight down to the bottom of the water channel without staying at the water surface level.  I think I am close to giving up and will try to come up with another way of getting rail across, maybe via subways for both rail and elevated rail.  In case it is helpful, I've attached a screenshot as well as the SC4 Rockaway region.Perhaps there is something obvious that I'm not seeing.  Thank you for the advice.

City - Rockaways.sc4

[rsc204 21,857]

Well one of two things is happening here, either the Slope Settings needed for the DBE to function, are being modified or overridden so they don't function. Or it could be that the terrain isn't absolutely flat where the rail meets the bridge. I'm just rendering a DBE tutorial now, which better shows this problem and how to prevent it from occurring. That should be on YouTube tonight, you can follow the link in my sig to find my Channel.

I've a feeling it's the former problem though and there are a few significant factors that may be preventing the intended operation here. Because you are using a Mac, the load order is not the same to that used in Windows, because both OSs give different ordering to the special characters, like the underscore _ and tilde ~ which are used here. To try and force the DBE to load after any slope mods, we used the tilde character as a prefix of the folder name. This will work as expected in Windows, but your Mac may be interpreting it differently, making it possible another slope mod for rail is interfering. Slope Mods are defined on a per-network basis, even if multiple networks get packaged into a single file. Anything that modifies the Rail Tunnel's settings would also conflict, since the Properties for them are in the same Exemplar. I obviously can't know what's in your plugins, but if the techniques outlined in the video for terraforming still don't allow rail to be dragged over the edge, I'm sure this is the problem.

I know of a painless method to search for the relevant Exemplar IDs in your Plugins suite using iLives Reader, but it's a native Windows program. So unless you can either track down the offending files and remove them when using the DBE, or otherwise ensure the DBE folder loads after them, you're stuck unable to use the DBE for rail.

[AndyBlue 21]

Thanks, RSC.  I'll have to check the Readme's to see how the NAM files should load on the Mac, as compared to the PC, and figure out how to make sure the folders get read in the correct order. I'll definitely check out your YouTube channel.

As an aside, I completely deleted and reinstalled the NAM files on my Mac in case this helped the situation.  The Java installer installed the files in the Documents>SimCity 4>Plugins folder, instead of the Library>Containers>com.aspyr.simcity4.appstore>Data>Documents>SimCity 4>Plugins folder.  I remembered reading that the Plugins folder should be under Library, not Documents, so I moved the entire NAM folder to the Library plugins folder and NAM loads without any duplicated icons as I had before. I'll keep you posted on any developments.  

[Tarkus 6,933]

I can verify from even my limited experience using the Mac version that our trickery for getting the DBE to load first with the tilde ("~") only works on Windows.  Underscores ("_") also get treated differently on Mac as well.  The only real way to get things to load last on the Mac end is with "z".  Something like "zzzDiagonal Bridge Enabler" should allow it to work on Mac.

-Tarkus

[rsc204 21,857]

7 hours ago, AndyBlue said:

I'll have to check the Readme's to see how the NAM files should load on the Mac, as compared to the PC

I'm not sure if there is any documentation on that, everyone developing the NAM is a PC user, although both Tarkus and Myself have Mac Minis, in my case I don't even own SC4 for it. The point being, we try to help where we can, but none of us are exactly Mac experts and so the absolute specifics probably aren't documented.

The reason we know about these problems, is from user reports of other files that don't load in the expected order. So I think the best advice is changing the folder names to start with z's and make sure no folders in the Root of Plugins use a starting character other than a letter. This way, you can be absolutely certain of which folder will load last.

[AndyBlue 21]

On 11/2/2020 at 3:08 AM, rsc204 said:

The reason we know about these problems, is from user reports of other files that don't load in the expected order. So I think the best advice is changing the folder names to start with z's and make sure no folders in the Root of Plugins use a starting character other than a letter. This way, you can be absolutely certain of which folder will load last.

Hi RSC204 and Tarkus,

I followed RSC's YouTube video (very helpful, thank you!) and your recommendations and added a "ZZZ" to the DBE folder so that it loads last.  I also temporarily deleted all of my other plugins except for the NAM and DBE plugins, and also tried deleted and not deleting the \Network Addon Mod\2_Additional Network Features\Rail (RealRailway)\Tunnel and Slope Parameters\RealRailway_SlopeParameters.dat file. Using this configuration, I can sometimes get a diagonal rail line all the way across the water channel (I couldn't before) but there still is no bridge; rather, the bottom surface of the channel rises up to meet the rail line.  I've tried various permutations of these steps but still cannot get a rail bridge.  I'm attaching a screen shot of my plugins folder in case you find it helpful.

At this stage, I think that I've spent more than enough time trying to get diagonal rail to work on my computer.  I'll assume that a particular setting in the Mac prevents the correct loading of the DBE rail plugin, whereas there is no problem loading the plugin under Windows.  I'm going to move on and either implement a standard orthogonal rail bridge or (preferably) figure out how to get an underwater rail tunnel without massively terraforming.

Thank you for the help.  I do appreciate it.

 

[rsc204 21,857]

4 hours ago, AndyBlue said:

Using this configuration, I can sometimes get a diagonal rail line all the way across the water channel (I couldn't before) but there still is no bridge; rather, the bottom surface of the channel rises up to meet the rail line.

I think with this behaviour, we can be pretty sure the DBE is correctly loading, since otherwise, you wouldn't be able to drag out the rail line.

As you will have seen in my video, sometimes the terrain will 'jump' to the height of the bridge, because the settings the DBE uses trigger it when the game needs to level or alter the terrain. Although it may help to know if this was before or after placing the starter pieces?, but this shouldn't usually happen everywhere..

As I mentioned in the tutorial, if this starts to happen it often creates a domino effect, so it needs to be stopped right away if it starts. Continuing to drag the bridge or clicking to extend the override, will just make it worse, you need to remove a good section between the edges, re-terraform and then drag the network once more. After much testing today, I've concluded that provided you get as close to, without removing, the last override tile, you shouldn't need to re-plop the starter pieces. This is important, since they will often try to make minute adjustments to the terraforming, triggering the problem.

It's very hard to say if that's what is happening to you, or if there is some problem on the Mac version, due to the difference in the code for the game. I've certainly not heard of the latter, but with the updated 64-bit version this year, there certainly were other quirks. It certainly can't be ruled out at this stage and without feedback from other Mac users, will remain unclear.

4 hours ago, AndyBlue said:

I'll assume that a particular setting in the Mac prevents the correct loading of the DBE rail plugin, whereas there is no problem loading the plugin under Windows.

As above, I'm sure it is loading at this point, although it clearly wasn't the case until you could at least drag the rail off the edge of depressions. It certainly does appear the default folder name does not work on a Mac, which is only a problem when a Rail Slope mod exists in Plugins. Otherwise, nothing would be able to override the settings that are included in the DBE. Of course we know the one included with RRW in NAM 37 onwards will conflict, but if removing that didn't work either, it's likely another such Exemplar (mod) exists in your setup. Using the zzz prefix should be enough to ensure the DBE settings load after any other ones though.

5 hours ago, AndyBlue said:

I'm going to move on and either implement a standard orthogonal rail bridge or (preferably) figure out how to get an underwater rail tunnel without massively terraforming.

I totally understand. Generally speaking the DBE is a pretty advanced mod, it's not an easy thing regardless.

I wanted to make a quick test, just to see how "perfect" it was possible to make the terraforming to ensure results. The answer is, ridiculous so, just .1m difference in height between any tiles you are placing networks on or adjacent to, will prevent it from working. So provided the upper part of the edge you are dragging is absolutely, perfectly flat, you should always be able to at least start a bridge. For anyone who wants it, I've attached a single-city Region, perfectly terraformed, such as all DBE bridges will drag from anywhere every time. Even this isn't completely failsafe, because some tiles, despite perfect terraforming, don't sit right and effectively prevent those tiles being used for diagonal bridges. Using this city, I can guarantee if you miss one of these spots, you can drag a rail bridge almost anywhere in one go, without the auto-terraforming issue.

Dual tile bridges are a bit messier, because it's a diagonal dual-tile setup, sometimes moving the bridge one tile further up/down the edge, or making the crossing one tile shorter/longer can have an affect. This is because some parts are dependent on whether the inner or outer parts sit on the edge of the embankment. In these cases I'm always seeing the terraforming issue, but it's best to drag just the edges of the bridge, only as few tiles as you can get away with, before placing the starters. But even with this technique, you may need to mess about deleting the bridge, terraforming, then redrawing it for both sides. The key is again, remove every tile you can without destroying the starter, then it should come right.

If any Mac users can confirm with the attached city installed and renaming the DBE folder with a zzz not ~ prefix, allows these bridges to work or not, it would at least clarify if there is a larger problem at work here.

DBE TestCity.zip

[AndyBlue 21]

13 hours ago, rsc204 said:

If any Mac users can confirm with the attached city installed and renaming the DBE folder with a zzz not ~ prefix, allows these bridges to work or not, it would at least clarify if there is a larger problem at work here.

Hi RSC204,

I am pleased to report that I have successfully been able to draw a diagonal rail bridge using my NAM/DBE configuration but in a highly unexpected manner.  I was not able to draw a diagonal rail bridge using the convention dragging method as shown in your YouTube video, but can do so via a diagonal road bridge.  Here are the steps I came up with:

1- Draw a regular diagonal road bridge where the rail bridge is to be located.

2- Draw regular diagonal rail away from the road bridge in both directions.

3- Remove one or two tiles from the rail line and place a diagonal rail bridge starter tiles at each end of the diagonal rail.  

4- Beginning at the rail bridge starter tile, draw a rail line over the entire road bridge.  The road bridge will disappear and workers will build the rail bridge in its place.  Connect any loose ends.

I came up with this method using the DBE TestCity region you provided, and tested the procedure in my New York Rockaways region and it worked as well, including when I added back all of my plugins. I'm providing a screen shot of the steps I used, as well as the step of dragging the rail line over the road to generate the rail bridge.  I haven't tested the rail bridge to see whether trains will cross over it, but I assume they will.  

I presume that I didn't uncover a new feature, but it would be great if this technique could be applied to other diagonal bridges such as elevated light rail or tram bridges.  Now I can get rid of the orthogonal rail bridges that are cluttering up my region!

[armpit43 172]

I'm having the same problem, on PC though. I used to be able to create diagonal rail bridges, but since upgrading to the Real Railway Mod it just won't work. Instead, it creates deep canyons for the tracks to pass through on the riverbed. I've downloaded the RRW patch and removed the "Slope and Tunnel Parameter" folder from my Plugins, but its made no difference.