Crash to desktop

[countermoon 46]

Well, it was good while it lasted. I played SimCity 4 with NAM 37 for many hours, but now when the game loads it crashes to the desktop. I have (had) 40,000 people in my city. I wonder if there is a limit which crashes the game.

The geniuses at Apple changed how crash logs are done (in Sierra), so troubleshooting is more difficult than it used to be. Crash logs are now even more a mystery. I tried using Howard Oakley's helpful programs, but I can't make much sense of them.

[countermoon 46]

I reinstalled the game and worked my way back, but again as I reached the 40,000 mark in population, the games crashed. Then it wouldn't even start. I tried lowering the monitor resolution and texture detailing, but that didn't help.

[countermoon 46]

I saw that NAM 38 was released, so I installed it in the hope that I would be able to play the game again. Nope. Still crashes on start. I'm going to install Boot Camp and see if I can play the Windows version.

[rsc204 21,805]

On 19/10/2020 at 8:30 PM, countermoon said:

I reinstalled the game and worked my way back, but again as I reached the 40,000 mark in population, the games crashed. Then it wouldn't even start. I tried lowering the monitor resolution and texture detailing, but that didn't help.

There is no hard limit of 40k pop, I've just (after a day), managed to port a Region/Plugins set from Windows to my Mac, not fun. But the point here is that one city has a 179k population and I can play it with HD textures, Seasonal Trees and a few GBs of mods.

How much RAM does your Mac have? I'm using a 2012 Mac Mini with 8GB, 1.5GB of that reserved for the onboard GPU. So I wonder if perhaps this is a RAM issue, I know for sure NAM 38 (my ported region is NAM 36), comes with a bigger RAM requirement. It could be there is a resource issue behind this?

As for Boot Camp, this just allows you to dual boot Mac OS/Windows and run both natively. Therefore, there is no good reason why SC4 won't work under Windows, GPU and its drivers depending (always the case). Honestly from everything I've read and am recently finding out, if Dual Booting doesn't bother you, life will probably be easier playing modded SC4.

[countermoon 46]

I doubt it's a RAM problem. This is an old game which uses less RAM than modern games. I have 32 GB of RAM.

For me, the Mac version works better than the Windows version.

[rsc204 21,805]

On 09/11/2020 at 8:15 PM, countermoon said:

I doubt it's a RAM problem. This is an old game which uses less RAM than modern games. I have 32 GB of RAM.

Well yes, if you have 32GB RAM, then we can pretty much rule that out as the issue. But now I must admit to being quite puzzled, because based on the specific problem, the most likely cause is a lack of resources. We know hitting 40k isn't some sort of general limitation, it's totally possible to run the game with much higher populations. So if there is no game limitation and you aren't running out of resources, what then is special about 40k sims?

The answer is, probably nothing, since if that were true, the problem would affect every user of the game. So, there must be something within your particular setup, which is behind this.

On 09/11/2020 at 8:15 PM, countermoon said:

For me, the Mac version works better than the Windows version.

Well I would understand that statement, if the Mac game didn't have so many problems that the Windows one doesn't suffer from. From a purely hardware perspective, of course the Mac Version appears easier to get working. It's unlikely there are more than 100 GPUs that it needs to work with for example, which means it's easier to run out of the box without trouble. SC4 works with most systems just fine under Windows, but it's a legacy application not updated since 2003. Once more compared to the current Mac version from 2014, updated in 2020, you'd be comparing Apples and Oranges, if you didn't consider these factors.

In short, before it will run well on modern hardware under Windows, SC4 can take a little effort to bridge the compatibility gap. But having done so, you simply don't run into lots of problems like the one you're having. With the exception of the Eternal Commuter bug, again unlike the Mac version, almost every other major issue left in the Windows code can be resolved. Note the Eternal Commuter bug is present in the Mac version also.

Honestly, running SC4 natively under boot camp will not be as troublesome as running what is a very bug-ridden, unpatched and generally poorly supported application. That your game is unable to grow beyond 40k pop, which is hardly stretching the limits, highlights this point rather well.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that SC4 (Windows) runs perfectly on a 2009 Mac Mini (Core2Duo, 2GB RAM, NVidia GPU), running Windows XP under BootCamp.

I'll go one better (worse), I can run SC4 with NAM38 on a Sony Vaio P (PZ133), which is probably the least powerful system I've used since my Celeron 400, but a great portable machine. Its flawed, but I love it, I won't say it runs SC4 well, it does not, but it does work.

So if your Mac really is a seriously specced machine, whilst performance would theoretically be better on it, the realities of its (the Mac versions) development, is the crux of why the PC version is better. Between bugs patched in 2003 for Windows users that are STILL outstanding today on the Mac, to visual issues due to the use of OpenGL rendering and many other really obvious problems, none of which are realistically even going to be considered as in need of fixing. It's clear the Mac edition is and always has been, hideously flawed. This is not to be confused with the Windows version, which suffers from compatibility issues. Run it on hardware it was designed for, under Windows XP and you are very unlikely to run into problems. Want to run it with a brand new system, you'll get there, but it's just not going to be an install and done process, something true of all PC games.

Bootcamp = Windows, the fact that you are using Bootcamp does not alter the operating environment from that of using a non-Apple Intel PC. The only thing that's unique are the drivers, but if those don't work, that's on Apple, who modified the OEM versions for their hardware. Often what happens and we see the same from other PC manufacturers too, they don't continue to update (support), their modified versions of the drivers. So fixes and improvements users of the default drivers get, never make it to the customised systems. I guess for Apple, if Windows runs on a GPU driver, it's job done at that point.

If course none of this really helps you I know, but if it were me, I would troubleshoot the problems with the Windows game under bootcamp. At least you've some chance of success, because whatever is happening to your Mac version, is either a bug that you can't fix yourself or something unique to your system. Perhaps as a hail Mary, you might consider wiping the game completely and re-installing it, but I wouldn't expect anything to be different. Let's face it, what exactly can you configure for the Mac game?, the resolution is about it and it's hard to see how this is connected to your troubles. Likewise, you've no control over drivers or any factor that may alleviate the issue. So unless the problem is directly related to some Plugin you've installed, test this by building a city past 40k pop without any mods installed, I've no idea what else you can even try. Of course, I'm no Mac expert by any means, so maybe I'm missing something, but I've been around here long enough to know, many problems are discussed, few solutions are found when it comes to the Mac game.

[countermoon 46]

I've uninstalled and reinstalled many times, both the game and NAM, but problems recur. I'm in the middle of a city now, and if it starts crashing again I'll mention it in a  thread.

Some people think NAM is the problem. But from what I've read, I'm not sure I would play it without NAM. Regardless, I had problems with crashing before I installed NAM. I've tried to do a custom install with NAM but I'm not sure that matters. I read something about DAT packing, which remains a puzzle to me. I certainly don't need all these extras that NAM installs.

Where you say "a little effort" should probably say "a lot",  based on my reading. One has to jump through a lot of hoops to get the Windows version running correctly. Those didn't work for me in Boot Camp, though I might try again some day.

Some readers suggested that what we usually take to be an advantage is with SC4 a disadvantage: a powerful modern computer. They said that SC4 has difficulty with multiple-core computers. So one of the Windows changes is entering a command that limits the game to running on one core. I have an i7 Mac that can run 8 cores. This and other commands in Launch Options don't work on the Mac version. This is all reinforced by your comment that you can get the game to run on XP. Perhaps the weaker system, the better the game runs.

 

[rsc204 21,805]

On 14/11/2020 at 2:26 PM, countermoon said:

Where you say "a little effort" should probably say "a lot",  based on my reading. One has to jump through a lot of hoops to get the Windows version running correctly. Those didn't work for me in Boot Camp, though I might try again some day.

Well in context of your current problems, to my mind it doesn't seem so much work. Frankly in the worst case scenario, it shouldn't take you more than a few hours to troubleshoot the very worst problems SC4 might throw your way. At least there is something to troubleshoot.

On 14/11/2020 at 2:26 PM, countermoon said:

I read something about DAT packing, which remains a puzzle to me.

For the sake of analogy, it's like making a .zip file. It doesn't actually reduce the size of the data, merely the number of files that contain it. For example, my 1.32GB mods are condensed into just 12 .dat files through this process.

The original reason for DAT Packing has to do with how HDD's store data. By condensing many files into fewer, the HDD needs to seek the data far less, speeding up loading times and performance in-game. SSDs have for the most part made this irrelevant, since they do not seek data nor need to physically move things to where said data resides. However, uniquely for the Mac version, some issue with the code means, the game goes wrong when you have beyond a specific number of files/folders in Plugins. I'd love to tell you how many files/folders NAM usually contains, but since MacOS makes it so ridiculously complex to do this (in Windows it's two clicks of a mouse), I honestly don't know. But it's probably in the 1,000's. Hence to avoid running into this issue, we recommend all Mac users DAT Pack the NAM. A simple Java-based tool, JDAT Packer can do this in just a few steps, I personally did it in Windows and copied the files over.

On 14/11/2020 at 2:26 PM, countermoon said:

Some readers suggested that what we usually take to be an advantage is with SC4 a disadvantage: a powerful modern computer.

Yes/No... SC4 on a Mac is a very modern App, it's inception comes from just 2014 when Aspyr rewrote the Windows code to work on Mac. The latest 2020 update, SHOULD have been properly tested on a good range of modern Macs and SHOULD work with them. If not, it says a lot about Aspyr's commitment to quality. If I'm honest, I don't think they care personally, they just did enough so they could keep selling it at $20 a time, "cha-ching".

On 14/11/2020 at 2:26 PM, countermoon said:

They said that SC4 has difficulty with multiple-core computers. So one of the Windows changes is entering a command that limits the game to running on one core. I have an i7 Mac that can run 8 cores.

This isn't an issue on the Mac version, if it were, everyone would be having problems.

Sure, the Windows game has no Multi-Core code, you literally must add this command to disable that if you want any chance of running SC4 stably. However, caveats apply, for example XP and earlier OS' won't try to offload separate processes to different cores, so the issue doesn't apply there. Likewise, if you don't have a MultiCore CPU, you can't run into this problem. My Windows PC is a 4 core HT i7 too (8 logical cores), but even if I could use them all, SC4 was not designed to and the idea you can have 8 times the performance is simply a false reality, it simply doesn't work like that. The reality is, it took 10 years from multi-core processors being standard, before most software was properly optimised to utilise them.

Is the Mac version re-coded to fully enable Multi-Core support?, that's pretty hard to answer, it certainly does show some signs this might be the case. But I think more likely, it's just been made compatible, so it doesn't crash.

On 14/11/2020 at 2:26 PM, countermoon said:

This and other commands in Launch Options don't work on the Mac version.

A common misconception is that these commands are "SC4" commands, programmed by Maxis, they are not. These commands are part of the Windows OS and specifically related to DirectX, an API for running games. So I'm not wholly surprised they don't work on the Mac, it's also true however, that you don't need them either. Some, would be nice to have from a user-experience perspective. But most simply don't apply on a Mac.

On 14/11/2020 at 2:26 PM, countermoon said:

This is all reinforced by your comment that you can get the game to run on XP. Perhaps the weaker system, the better the game runs.

As a generalisation, under Windows this could be said to be true, running SC4 on the hardware it's code was designed to work with, is simply providing it with the most ideal environment. Again, SC4 wasn't coded to make use of many technologies and APIs that have since become standard. So just as it can't use more than one core, it can't use SSE2 and other things that are key to making the most of modern hardware. That doesn't change the fact that a Pentium 4 system sucks in 2020, no way will that run SC4 better than my 2014 system. I have 4Ghz per core, but can easily see 4.3Ghz single-core performance with turbo boost. Clocks speeds are meaningless though, because a 3.06Ghz P4 HT chip, will be destroyed by a much slower clocked Core2 one, the Core i series is not even playing the same sport.

But it's GPUs, specifically legacy DirectX compatibility that is the killer for SC4. If your GPU can't work with DirectX 9.0c compatibility modes, which in reality is DirectX 7, or just fails to support one key feature of DDraw that is intrinsic to performance in SC4, life will suck. It's not unheard of, that some systems simply can not even run SC4 under DirectX, needing to use instead Software Rendering, a last resort compatibility mode. The combination of your GPU, Drivers, OS and DirectX are absolutely key to running SC4 today on a modern PC. If you are stuck with Intel Graphics, it'll work (mostly, HD3000 cards seem not to), but performance suffers from poor driver support for legacy functions. Hardly surprising, NVidia and ATI have been supporting games and building their drivers off the back of many more years of hardware. Considering Intel only seriously started to support gaming quite recently, some things are lacking, but despite what many think, the GPU's themselves are actually very acceptable performance wise. Just don't expect 4k 60fps gaming with the latest games or anything close to it, for sure it's no $1,000+ NVidia "I've got too much money" card. This is the very aspect that requires troubleshooting.

That said, I've used three main setups with SC4, an ATI HD3870, NVidia GTX 750ti and NVidia GTX 960, the last two just worked. The ATI simply needed editing of two config files, to help SC4 correctly recognise it's a modern card. These days, most NVidia cards require this change too. One last thing, Windows 10 reworked something called WDDM, which completely transformed backwards compatibility, meaning it's more likely that ever you can make things work. None of these solutions would take as long as it took me to type out this post to go through.

[countermoon 46]

Thanks very much for your help. Very much. I'm going to read over your post when I have more time.

I did have a crash yesterday. I forgot. It was while was scrolling, but I think I was while the mouse. Usually I use the arrows. In fact, sometimes the mouse doesn't work for scrolling.

[countermoon 46]

I downloaded jdatpacker from here. https://github.com/memo33/JDatPacker

I downloaded a zip file. After unzipping, there's a file that says click on the .jar file to install. I don't see any .jar files. I see .sbt and .scala

I always having trouble at github trying to figure out where and what to download. Every time I go through this.

[Cyclone Boom 16,851]

12 minutes ago, countermoon said:

I always having trouble at github trying to figure out where and what to download. Every time I go through this.

The GitHub repository there contains the source code, which would be used for building the program from the raw files.

To download the actual compiled program, it's available here on the LEX which contains the JDatPacker-0.1.3.jar inside the zip archive.

[countermoon 46]

Sign in to download?

[rsc204 21,805]

Yeah, not optional on SC4D or the LEX.

[countermoon 46]

Absurd process.

[CorinaMarie 29,569]

7 hours ago, countermoon said:

Absurd process.

It's only slightly different than here on Simtropolis. We also require registering in order to post on our forums. The only difference with Devotion is their LEX (file exchange) also requires a separate login. That's no big deal at all to sign up for.

[BartonThinks 3,416]

40 minutes ago, countermoon said:

Absurd process.

There are a few reasons it's set up that way, but one of the big ones is that the site includes two really useful features: 1) it uses your account to keep a record of the files you've downloaded over time, and it will tell you if you already have file installed; 2) it includes a function that allows you to download a file's dependencies in bulk, and when you do this, it will skip any files you already have. If you play SC4 regularly and enjoy using custom content, I promise you that the sign-up is worth it.

Also, a quick question: Is NAM the only piece of custom content that you're using? Or do you play the game with additional plugins?

On 11/14/2020 at 1:25 PM, countermoon said:

Thanks very much for your help. Very much. I'm going to read over your post when I have more time.

I did have a crash yesterday. I forgot. It was while was scrolling, but I think I was while the mouse. Usually I use the arrows. In fact, sometimes the mouse doesn't work for scrolling.

Another quick follow-up -- When I was Googling for possible causes for Crash to Desktops, this was one of the first threads that popped up. The player who reported the issue had CTD issues when they were scrolling. If I'm reading this correctly, the culprit appears to be the CPU count, which you mentioned as a possibility earlier?

I also found a couple of threads that deal specifically with CTDs on Macs. One issue that might be worth looking into is whether you're operating the 64-bit version of the game. Apple updated the game to 64-bit last year, and that update started to trigger a bunch of crashes. The good news (assuming that you're having the same problem) is that this issue only happens with specific plugins. You can stop the CTDs by either finding and getting rid of the offending files or patching them. @rsc204 explains the process for patching the files in this post.

That said, I'm not sure if this is the issue you're having -- I haven't read through the entire thread, but most of the users seem to report crashes as soon as they try to open a city, not when they're partway through playing.

 

 

[rsc204 21,805]

8 hours ago, countermoon said:

Absurd process.

Maybe, but not in anyone's control here, nor subject to change by complaining about it either. Bottom line, it takes seconds, you can use a throwaway e-mail address for registration, the more time you waste fighting it, the more hassle it will ultimately be.

Frankly, if you are interested in using Mods, SC4D along with the STEX are both indispensable locations to get content. If you choose out of some principle not to use the LEX, you are missing out on some great stuff.

I mean, why do I need an AppleID to use a mobile phone? Sometimes you have to jump through hoops to get what you want.

8 hours ago, BartonThinks said:

Another quick follow-up -- When I was Googling for possible causes for Crash to Desktops, this was one of the first threads that popped up. The player who reported the issue had CTD issues when they were scrolling. If I'm reading this correctly, the culprit appears to be the CPU count, which you mentioned as a possibility earlier?

The Mac version doesn't suffer from the Single-Core issue, in any case we can't use command line switches on a Mac, as I mentioned previously. This is the GoG Galaxy problem that is outlined, presumably fixable by using the GoG Galaxy equivalent for Set Launch Options, rather than editing the shortcut (the outlined solution). But none of this applies here.

8 hours ago, BartonThinks said:

I also found a couple of threads that deal specifically with CTDs on Macs.

These issues will cause one of two problems. The game simply CTDs before it even loads, which points to one type of invalid data. Otherwise, it will only CTD when you select an item and/or try to place it, again with a slightly different type of invalid data. There is to my knowledge, no other more general CTD problem with the Mac App.

What most likely happened in the case of the first thread you linked, the game updated from the 32-bit to 64-bit version, which triggered the issue which previously wasn't a problem. Likewise it's exactly the same issues being reported in the 2nd linked thread. Once more, these issues don't correlate with the specific problem here.

8 hours ago, BartonThinks said:

That said, I'm not sure if this is the issue you're having -- I haven't read through the entire thread, but most of the users seem to report crashes as soon as they try to open a city, not when they're partway through playing.

Exactly, these issues are so specific, it's pretty clear if you are suffering from them or something else is at play.

Of course I totally get, you are just trying to help, but none of what you've linked to provides any relevant solutions for the particular problem in this case.

[countermoon 46]

In regard to the previous question, I am using the 64 bit version, which was updated automatically by Steam. I recommend people use the Steam version. When I returned to games after many years, I didn't know what to make of Steam, but it turns out to be a pretty good service. There are cheap games, semi-reliable reviews, and reliable downloads. I wish it had tabbed browsing. Sometimes the information is limited or incorrect. But generally I recommend people avoid Apple's App store and use Steam or the developer's web site if possible when purchasing or downloading.

I agree about the CTDs except mine have occurred at any time for any reason. I stopped using the mouse to scroll and used the arrows because it seemed to cause a crash. After I start getting CTDs, then I have trouble loading the game and it crashes. But that's after it crashes during the game. I really can't predict when it will crash except, as I wrote earlier somewhere, that it seems to be after I have 40,000 population and there's a lot going on on the screen. Possibly datpacking will solve that. I'm still trying to figure it out. I did get the file downloaded after jumping through many unnecessary hoops.

When I contributed to this site I received the big STEX download, but I haven't looked much at it. That's down the road a little.

 

[rsc204 21,805]

20 hours ago, countermoon said:

Possibly datpacking will solve that. I'm still trying to figure it out.

In essence, every folder in your Plugins folder, when selected by the tool, will be condensed into one (or more) .dat files. Those dat files then replace the folder and should function identically. However, dat files are NOT zip files, the process is one-way only, you can not easily re-constitute the original files from a dat. Therefore, you need to keep your original Plugins folder, in addition to the DATPacked version. The idea being, when you want to edit or add to your Plugins, you restore the unpacked folders, make the changes, then DATPack them anew. Of course, this only requires you do this for those folders where you are making changes, or for new folders.

Keep it simple for now, just DATPack the Network Addon Mod folder. It usually condenses into 2 or 3 dat files, necessary because a single dat can only contain so much data. Once you've done that, if your problem is related to too many files, you should spot the difference pretty quickly.

The key here is to be organised and do things methodically, provided you do, you'll be okay.

I must admit, I'm still getting stumped by some of the bizarre load order outcomes of the Mac version, which if you have overrides and overrides of the overrides, like I do, will potentially make life harder. Frankly, I'm not going to get into that myself too much, until I can restore my dual-monitor setup once more.

This got a bit ranty, so skip on by if you like.

Spoiler

After my partner started home-working in March, I let her have my second HD display so she wouldn't have to suffer her work laptop's small screen all day. I've got my eye on a pair of 1440p displays to replace my old 1080p ones, but I'm waiting for them to be the right price before I buy-in. Cue a completely waste-of-money need, to buy a Thunderbolt to DVI-D adapter, because Apple's drivers are too dumb to let you use a non-Apple display with a DisplayPort cable. It works, but every time a monitor sleeps (or you switch it off), you'll need to reboot the computer to get your display back. It's a well-documented issue too, which doesn't happen under bootcamp, so absolutely not a hardware limitation/incompatibility of any kind. Note I had the same issue, hence I know about it, with my 1080p display, resolved with a cheap TB to DVI-I adapter. But to go to 1440p, even though DisplayPort can handle it fine, I must use a DVI-D cable if I don't want my monitor on, the entire time my Mac is!

All because Apple want me to pay for Thunderbolt Displays, which cost twice the cost, second hand, 8 years old and with no warranty, of brand new similarly specced units! This would at least make sense, if Apple actually sold monitors, which they don't anymore, but they still won't fix the drivers. It's less the 50-60€ price (again 2nd hand, Apple won't even sell me a new one), of the adapter, but more the Fucking mess it's going to make spreading all those cables over my desk. Where I already have to accommodate two machines, two monitors, a USB KVM switch, external HDDs and more besides. Oh Apple, there are things I like, but so many things that make me wonder, who in their right mind would pay the asking price of your new hardware, only to put up with this crap.

Right now, having to do this by switching back and forth between my Mac and PC, is just too much hassle. Just like a lot of the things I use my PC for, once you've had multi-monitors, you just can't go back. Yes, I could just do this all on the Mac, but my Windows PC remains my SC4 playing/modding machine, I dropped way too much money on it, to ditch it for a cheap second hand Mac. Even if my day to day browsing and e-mail is as I found out, working better for me under MacOS, mostly because I use an iPhone and just love Continuity. But also, I am starting to value more and more Apple's privacy options.

[countermoon 46]

"Is NAM the only piece of custom content that you're using?"

Yes.

[countermoon 46]

Datpacking was successful. An hour later I experienced the first crash with my current city. This time at about the 30,000 population mark rather than 40,000. I restarted and have been playing that same city without any other problems.

[Madmartigan 66]

It's really such a shame that this game has so many issues. It's such a brilliant game. I myself experience the same thing. When my population hits about 30k-40k it becomes increasingly choppy, takes longer to save and usually crashes while saving (Sometimes the save works, sometimes it doesn't).

I've tried pretty much everything under the sun to get the crashing to stop or at least minimize. It's just something I deal with now and unfortunately it's made me have to avoid making any large metropolis. Crying shame that EA won't just spend a couple of months releasing a new version, how much work would it be for them? If they could guarantee a new, patched version that would not crash I would pay 20$-30$, maybe even more.

[rsc204 21,805]

On 04/12/2020 at 9:10 PM, Circusmonkey10 said:

Crying shame that EA won't just spend a couple of months releasing a new version, how much work would it be for them?

Not really EA, but rather Aspyr who are responsible for the game.

Honestly at this point, I think you should contact support and ask for help, because whatever is causing your crashes, is not a general game bug. Like I said on relatively puny hardware, a 2012 Mini with Intel graphics, it works just fine for me.

Expecting Aspyr to fix anything is a recipe for disappointment it seems. But if no one tells them about problems, you can be certain they won't get fixed. It looks likely to me there is a software/driver issue at play somewhere, but being a Mac, that means the game's code needs updating to account for the later. If the former, do things get any better if you reboot your Mac and try running the game before you run any other applications?

[countermoon 46]

I have had a few crashes, but I have played the game enough to recommend dat packing to anyone having trouble with the Mac version of SimCity 4. After dat packing, the game is more playable, I think. I reached a population of 80,000 for the first time.

One thing about dat packing: It looks like you can't change any game files after you do this. Such as the traffic simulator controller.

NAM 39 was released in early December.

[rsc204 21,805]

1 hour ago, countermoon said:

One thing about dat packing: It looks like you can't change any game files after you do this. Such as the traffic simulator controller.

Correct, it's not like zipping (compressing) a bunch of files into a single one. The data being packed, does not contain the necessary file/folder structure to unpack it to the resultant files.

However, it is recommended you keep the unpacked files somewhere safe. When you need to modify or change something, you can toss the old DAT-Packed stuff, edit the unpacked files, then remake the DATPacked versions for use. If you aren't constantly changing things, thankfully you shouldn't need to do this too often.