Did 'Cities Skylines' Kind of Kill The City Builder Genre For a While?

[Cool_Z 1,547]

I think we can all agree about one thing. C:SL is not perfect, but SC2013 was (except on the visuals) a failure.

I would prefer CO's devs to stop breaking the game even more working on expansions. 

[Darf 1,439]

3 minutes ago, Cool_Z said:

I think we can all agree about one thing. C:SL is not perfect, but SC2013 was (except on the visuals) a failure.

I would prefer CO's devs to stop breaking the game even more working on expansions. 

You say that, but they actually added some pretty usefull technical systems over the last 3 years: day/night system, subbuildings, moddable lights, second level lods, trams/helicopters/other transport systems, quays and canals, map/citizen/scenario/network editor. From a technical pov the game is pretty good. Most of the things you and others point out are not because they are technically not possible, but because of design. 

[Avanya 2,605]

I just want to remind everyone to discuss the topic of the game and not each other. This topic is a very subjective one with lots of oppinions, both positive and negative. We're never all going to agree, but we can still be respectful of each other when discussing what works, what doesn't and what could have been done better instead of accusing each other of being ignorant and/or calling each other names. 

[Cool_Z 1,547]

17 hours ago, Darf said:

You say that, but they actually added some pretty usefull technical systems over the last 3 years: day/night system, subbuildings, moddable lights, second level lods, trams/helicopters/other transport systems, quays and canals, map/citizen/scenario/network editor. From a technical pov the game is pretty good. Most of the things you and others point out are not because they are technically not possible, but because of design. 

And at the same time they destroyed the way the game looks during the day (and refuse to admit it or fix it, we have to rely on a mod) and killed the reflections because of the completely crazy stuff they did with snowfall.

Yes they add things, but sometimes it seems they don't even look at the result until too late.
Lots of the things (not all of it I admit) we point here is stuff they could make tons better if they just admitted there was a problem.
The deathwaves are completely fixable, the game color is fixable, the traffic could be made TONS better if they just added a random lane choice when the engine determines a route for a car... etc etc etc... I just (again) use the growing color bug as an example. It might take five minutes to fix. Nah. Let's not do that.

I have no idea what they're waiting for. I actually have no idea if they understand what their game is sometimes.

[Darf 1,439]

2 hours ago, Cool_Z said:

And at the same time they destroyed the way the game looks during the day (and refuse to admit it or fix it, we have to rely on a mod) and killed the reflections because of the completely crazy stuff they did with snowfall.

Yes they add things, but sometimes it seems they don't even look at the result until too late.
Lots of the things (not all of it I admit) we point here is stuff they could make tons better if they just admitted there was a problem.
The deathwaves are completely fixable, the game color is fixable, the traffic could be made TONS better if they just added a random lane choice when the engine determines a route for a car... etc etc etc... I just (again) use the growing color bug as an example. It might take five minutes to fix. Nah. Let's not do that.

I have no idea what they're waiting for. I actually have no idea if they understand what their game is sometimes.

That's the thing, the developers don't see these things as problems, but they are designchoices. Apparently they don't stand in the way of their product selling 5 million copies. That doesn't make C:S a good game, I know. That's my whole point: they got some good programmers, if you look at CIM1+2 visually they can definitely make some good looking stuff as well, but we see some very mediocre designchoices.

For us, the community it's clear by now. C:S is a citypainter and most of the mods that are developed at the moment are to enhance it as a citypainter.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

The funny thing is that Cities XL is solely a city painter and excels at just that one category. Cities: Skylines’s city simulating aspects should be improved with DLC or a sequel. I honestly don’t understand why Cities: Skylines is chosen as the preferred city painter of choice. I use Cities: Skylines exclusively as a city simulator because I already have the prettiest city painter on the market. It’s much harder to make Cities: Skylines into a city painter and it will always look worse than Cities XL with the same quality computer, same performance, or same effort.

 

I would be happiest if Cities: Skylines was made into a good city simulator, with the equivalent of Total Overhaul (by boformer) and people would start polishing the quartz of Cities XL for city painting instead of polishing the dirt of Cities: Skylines as a city painter.

 

Then again, some people prefer this:

Over this

While SimCity 4 is a flawed sapphire that was polished to the point that it’s brilliant and beautiful but its intrinsic flaws are obvious they are impossible to fix.

[TheBigCon4800 42]

Cool; do you have any experience with SC4 before Rush Hour? It wasn't as good as you think it was.

[Cool_Z 1,547]

On 18/04/2018 at 5:31 AM, TheBigCon4800 said:

Cool; do you have any experience with SC4 before Rush Hour? It wasn't as good as you think it was.

I bought SC4 the day it was released. I liked it a lot, I think RH made it even better but it was already a very good game.

All the mechanisms were there, better than sc3k, more city management but not too much.

You see me ranting (and I've been very vocal at times) about CSL's day color, or its lack of optimization, but my main problem with it (and many people think the same) is that its basic simulation is wrong. The fact that the buildings grow in "levels", not separating density and wealth. the fact that buildings have to start at 1, even if the zone around has top land value. WHaaaat ? Also the lack of a middle density in zoning, pffffffffffffffffffffffffff !!!

[Avanya 2,605]

Let's try and stay on point. This is the Cities: Skylines forums, so how SC4 was on release and how it evolved doesn't really belong here.

[Cool_Z 1,547]

Well... you still have to compare citybuilders to other citybuilders to judge them.

Independently of sc4, C:SL is still not a good citybuilder. It's a (deeply flawed) network manager with a topping of "city-building stuff".

[MatlockMan 370]

On ‎17‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 6:49 PM, Cool_Z said:

Yes they add things, but sometimes it seems they don't even look at the result until too late.

Welcome to the complex world of game development? It isn't as easy as you might think. 

I have some sympathy for Colossal Order. They weren't sure when they started out how this would turn out. We sit here today and say "well of course C:SL would sell 5 million copies and become a well reviewed game, possibly the best reviewed city-builder since SC4", but lets not forget that before the game was release, Paradox had no idea how this game would perform. It was developed by only 9 to 11 people at first. Many of the intrinsic limitations came from a lack of resources. Admittedly, agent-based simulation has proven itself to be pretty underwhelming compared to the SC4 model, which allows for bigger populations and more robust simulation. 

I don't think C:SL has killed the city-builder. If anything, with 5 million copies sold, it has shown that the genre has a real market. I think all C:SL needs will be a sequel in the next decade which addresses the core concerns of the playerbase. At present, I'm happy still playing SC4. I also think CO should continue supporting the game and releasing new expansions for a while. 

[Cool_Z 1,547]

Yep, it showed people want citybuilders, and good ones (even if they can sometimes be fooled by "shiny stuff"°
C:SL did not kill the genre, SC2013 almost did.

[Georodin 1]

@calpolyfan
to revive this kind of ancient thread
1. I think even the vanilla textures have their Charme, but ur rights it's kinda cartoonized but imo fitting, also keep in mind that realistic textures are a lot more complex to produce
2. The engine loads contents at a proper speed, if you want to load tons of assets and props you will have to wait, but you get your value, also a proper CPU in combination with a NVME SSD works also well for me
3 & 4. The traffic is one of the best parts in the game. Custom intersections and vectors everywherewere? NICE When you understand it right and use the proper additional mods, you can even educate yourself and others about modern infrastructure solutions and problems. Also people drive to work, factorys deliver wares to your stores and children go to school. I love following people around. And if you treat your infrastructure well, maybe also with some traffic mods you will have less lags. Because traffic jam(s) is on hell of a performance killer(large scale). One point why the regions are locked to 9? tiles if I remember right is to keep even older machines from lagging too much. (Im playing with 81tiles ofc) And I don't know but even with a lot of people in my cities when the framerate and simulation speed drops below one, the input of construction orders still functions perfectly. So if you want to show of your sexy city you can just set the game speed to 0.25 with a mod and accelerate it in post video production. Also the maximum of people cars etc simulated at same time is capped. So even if you have a million city only percentage will be shown on the streets. Anyway the engine handles large scale simulations incredible well. And I get your point that at least for international ships and planes the vanilla simulation could offer more, but keep in mind that one can easily replace trains and other vehicles with custom models and even distinguish between them with every new line. You can also exactly set how many of them should be assigned with the right mod. 
I have not played SC4 but older ones. When I saw it right SC4 is using a trick with separate chunk loading to avoid overloading the CPU. Is quite nice especially for large scale city's but hinders the immersion in points of seamlessness. To the water, that is simulated on the lowest density possible with a few additional shortcuts and also at a very slow speed. This has no big performance influence. 
5. This one is kinda sad yes. You only can use the zone modifiers (high tech, IT cluster etc) to get a bit more variation. But still the height gap between low and high density is massive. And yes it would be nice to have 5x5 or even 6x6 buildings in a later stage. But actually every build has 3 or 5 levels wich are determined by land value and service availability, but it is a rather simple concept. You could also add tons of asset buildings wich can counter the repetitive look. 
6. Personal opinions, think the loud sirens give a nice urban feeling combined with trains sounds and people crowds. The OST is quite nice and fitting, but agree on the demolishing sound effect.
7. Can't say much about because I did not bother to inform myself. 
8. Yeah that ships will go over land is to simplify the simulation, would be a pain to indicate correctly when a ship can pass a certain self dug passage(programming wise). Again would be nice to have better international options BUT your SIM will use faster routes and also will calculate public transport in. Actually CS has a very complex node pathfinding algorithm that is once at each travel start evaluated. And your traffic flow is very codependent from a well functioning public transport system. And again you can actually modify public transport in so many ways through mods. 
9. conclusion, I think your really harsh with CS and I think that's because you expected something else
can you call CS still a citybuilder? yes, but it does offer a different set of challenges in comparisons to other citybuilding games
and yes, some of your points are also valid to me

the thing is, it is 2021 and Im in some beauty builder groups from CS and just wow, the scenery and asset creators that meet there are just crazy
they manage to create so beautiful digital dioramas and also the mod creators they do such a great community support still
here some selected screenshots from the german fb group


The images below are just from the german group and also from the last two months only...........

Spoiler

 

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

Wow, looks like I missed this thread years ago. Technically sure every game have it's pros and cons especially a fully 3D city simulator with it's many complex challenges. But tell me what other city builder allows us with the support of the developers to make things and immerse ourselves in a 3D world like the images below? We can go on first person rides with pretty much anything that moves.  If this isn't a great 3D painter, I don't know what is. CO did very well for us city builders and by the looks of it, my beloved SC4 is still doing very well to date too. We're all family here.

[MauricioBaldo 1]

I think so... At least, SimCity is dead after the failure of the last title.

[TooTall1980 1]

I don't think Cities Skylines Killed the Genre, I think it just up the standard on how Cities building games need and should be made.  Cities Skylines is over seven years old and something new will always come out eventually. 

[SIM-ple Jack 17,450]

If anything is going to kill city-builder games(and all strategy games), it is the quality of education in schools. Without a modicum of knowledge in math, algebra, design, and basic civics/infrastructure, it's almost impossible to play these games and get any enjoyment out of them.