The SimTropolis House of Worship

[the_new_simman 5]

Date: 12/27/2005 12:41:02 AM
Author: dev

Date: 12/27/2005 12:32:46 AM

Author: the_new_simman

Date: 12/26/2005 5:06:24 PM


Author: Ma8thew


Proud to be an implicit Atheist. Give me one argument other than propoganda that proves the excistance of a deity.



(and for the record, I'm not anti-religion - I have several good friends who are active Christians - I just don't like a 'convert or you'll burn in hell/jahannam/ attitude', from any religion.)

quote>



Even if you are wrong and there is a God, I'm sure he'll forgive you and let you into heaven! As long as you lived a 'good' life.



That's at least what I believe...I really think its a bit harsh to say all atheists will go to Hell if they don't convert. I think as long as your either a 'good' person or are true to the religion you are involved in will be let into heaven.



None of us will know the real truth till we die, thus no one has an arguement either way.

quote>



So Jesus said to him,

[Yellowlab 11]

I was once an unthinking Christian but am now a thinking atheist.  By that, I mean that when I was a Christian, it was because I was told to be; I do not mean that Christians are unthinking.  I went to church with my parents, sat through the talking, and left.  Next Sunday, repeat.  I did as I was told and was Christian.  I never got anything from it, though.  As I grew older, I began to notice how hollow it all seemed.  Slowly, beginning probably around when I was 13 or 14, I became an atheist.

 

My conversion to atheism was kind of like when you throw a pebble at a car's windshield.  First, a hole appears in the pane, and slowly the cracks spread across the entire surface, before eventually the whole thing shatters.  I finally shattered about 2 years ago, when I was 16.

 

The story of why is long and I am not going to type it out here for multiple reasons.  Basically, it began when I became convinced that there is no Hell, which led to there is no Heaven.  If there is no Heaven, the Bible is not totally factual.  Once that chink in the armor appears, there is no stopping the collapse of everything on it.

 

I believe that there was a Jesus, but I do not believe that he was divine, nor born of a virgin, nor the Son of God, seeing as how I do not believe that God exists.

 

Part of me still recoils at writing that, but the greater part of me genuinely believes it.  I am not atheist due to some sort of reaction against the values of my parents (my father is a minister) or of mainstream society through a desire for nonconformity, but I have thought for a very, very long time on this, and continue to do so today.  I see no evidence of the existence of a deity in the world.  I look around and see imperfection, things done wrong, things that make no sense.  I see overwhelming evidence supporting ideas so strongly fought against by the church.  I believe that the ideas of Jesus were corrupted, first by the Apostle Paul, then by Constantine and the early Church, and finally by the medieval Church Political.  I see today's church as the husk of what could have been, and I see people of faith throughout history doing horrible, horrible deeds, and I cannot believe.  I cannot believe in the Church as it exists today outside of a strong belief in the general values promoted by Jesus himself.

 

I have nothing against the Church Religious.  At one time, I would have given anything to be part.  I spent hours in prayer, begging to be shown the light that others around me so obviously knew.  Nothing came.  I fear the Church Political.

 

These are my views.  They are not meant to attack or tear down anyone else's system of beliefs, but they are my own.

[louisville327 0]

Date: 12/26/2005 6:34:38 PM Author: N_O_Body When delving into the physical sciences, you clearly become first, agnostic, then athiestic, but when you really get the picture, you cannot deny the existence of a creator. Things are just too well ordered for all this to be an accident.

quote>

I wouldn't be so quick to draw this conclusion. It is very well-known that physical (or natural) scientists, most of whom spend their lives trying to grasp the big picture, are still significantly non-religious. While conflicting polls suggest that the number of agnostic/atheist natural scientists is both growing and shrinking, they still remain a significant 38% (according to a Rice University study ).

And of the 62% that do not admit to having rejected a belief in god, many do not follow traditional religious traditions. You won't find many evangelical Christian fundamentalists among them.

Some interesting facts from the the same Rice University study :

-Less than 1% of polled scientists believe the Bible should be taken literally.

-75% agreed that the Bible is an ancient book of fables recorded by men.

-41% of both biologists and physicists reject god completely (compared to 15% of the population).

And there is overwhelming opposition among mainstream natural scientists to theories like Intelligent Design, which regressively claim that the existing holes in evolutionary theory make a supernatural creator necessary to explain life on Earth.

--------------------------

On a different but related note, I find it interesting that some of the most outspoken Christians in this thread are extremely young (as in early- to mid-teens). While I will never slight anyone's personal belief system, I find it interesting that a young devout Christian in this thread has admitted to being not much of a Bible-reader.

In my own life I've tried to learn as much as possible on a particular subject before drawing any of my own conclusions. On those subjects in which I have little insight or direct experience, I refrain from forming a personal opinion and let more knowledgeable people debate the finer points. This saves me from many pointless arguments, I've found, and keeps me from closing my mind to new or contrary information that may swing my worldview in different, more accurate directions.

[ephorex_77 0]

Date: 12/27/2005 12:43:03 AM Author: the_new_simman

Date: 12/27/2005 12:41:02 AM Author: dev

Date: 12/27/2005 12:32:46 AM Author: the_new_simman

Date: 12/26/2005 5:06:24 PM Author: Ma8thew Proud to be an implicit Atheist. Give me one argument other than propoganda that proves the excistance of a deity. (and for the record, I'm not anti-religion - I have several good friends who are active Christians - I just don't like a 'convert or you'll burn in hell/jahannam/ attitude', from any religion.)

Even if you are wrong and there is a God, I'm sure he'll forgive you and let you into heaven! As long as you lived a 'good' life. That's at least what I believe...I really think its a bit harsh to say all atheists will go to Hell if they don't convert. I think as long as your either a 'good' person or are true to the religion you are involved in will be let into heaven. None of us will know the real truth till we die, thus no one has an arguement either way.

So Jesus said to him,

[Boggy1 45]

Ok, now, the thing about the world being to ordered and natural is a very interesting question and sort of ties in with my Deist belief. Let

[Fischbob 9]

Boggy1: Wow, that's exactly how I view the creation of the Universe! About a year ago when I sat down and thought about where I stand, I came up with pretty much the same idea of a passive God/creator/etc.

As for an organized faith, I belong to Unitarian Universalism, a rather liberal religion. Unitarian Universalism (UU for short) is an interesting religion because it doesn't come along with a creed. Instead, the core values that guide us are outlined in seven principles:

• The inherent worth and dignity of every person
• Justice, equity, and compassion in human relations
• Acceptance of one another and encouragement of spiritual growth
• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning
• The right of conscience and the use of democratic process
• The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all
• Respect for the interdependant web of all existence of which we are a part

As long as our individual beliefs and values don't conflict with the above principles, Unitarian Universalists are free to believe anything they wish. I can have Deist views about the creation of the Universe, someone else can believe in Intelligent Design, and another might not believe in any God. They are all welcomed equally at a UU Church. In fact, Board of Trustees President at my church is a self-proclaimed Athiest.

 

U.S. President John Quincy Adams was a Unitarian (Unitarianism and Universalism were once seperate faiths, due to their very similarities they merged in 1961), as was author Beatrix Potter and architect Frank Lloyd Wright. I choose to be UU because I truly agree with those seven principles, and because I have the freedom to choose what I believe and still be part of a spiritual community.

 

And Dev, there's nothing wrong with being a Jesus Freak. I think he's a pretty cool guy myself (Just not God's son)!

 

This is an interesting discussion. I'll be following this closely.

 

EDIT: Every time I see the acronym PC, I keep thinking Progressive Conservative, lol.

[vidioman 21]

Date: 12/27/2005 8:31:40 AM
Author: Fischbob
EDIT: Every time I see the acronym PC, I keep thinking Progressive Conservative, lol.

quote>

Which is funny cuz they weren't!

[the_new_simman 5]

As we all know, today there are three theories of how the earth and the universe formed:

1) Creation by God
2) Intelligent Design
3) The Big Bang

All of these theories are very well thought out, but think of it this way. What started the big bang? Possibly two parallel universes hitting each other? What caused that? How were those universes created created?

My point is, yes the big bang probably happened, but what caused it? And what caused the thing to cause the big bang? There are so many questions and NO answers. It is only right ot assume that there had to be some sort of creator, whether it be God or a all knowing being.

[vidioman 21]

The big bang just happened. If something can't come out of nothing, where did God come from?

[Boggy1 45]

the_new_simman: Mmmm, thats why I'm a Deist. A Being DID create the Big Bang. But then of course, where is the Being located? In another Universe? How did that Universe be created? A Being created it? Where does that Being live? etc etc etc

[the_new_simman 5]

Date: 12/27/2005 11:54:17 AM
Author: vidioman
The big bang just happened. If something can't come out of nothing, where did God come from?

quote>

You have to remember that the Big Bang is a theory. Also, God is just there and always is.

And even before the Big Bang there were other paraellel universes; outside the universes noone knows what there is. That's why we have science, but I do believe that that will never be figured out.

[Mikeaut1 261]

Date: 12/27/2005 11:54:17 AM Author: vidioman The big bang just happened. If something can't come out of nothing, where did God come from?

quote>

God has always been around, before the Big Bang or any other universal explosion. He was the person who created the heavens and the earth, according to the first scripture of the Bible, Genesis 1:1. The premis of Genesis is to explain how the universe was created. It was created in 6 days, with one day of rest for God.

 

So you might say, How is all of this proven? You just have to have faith and belief that these occurances happened.

 

But looking at nature, and the world around me, I personally think Creation By God is what has happened. This world is too complex and detailed for scientific creation!

[vidioman 21]

Date: 12/27/2005 12:03:26 PM
Author: Mikeaut1
So you might say, 'How is all of this proven?' You just have to have faith and belief that these occurances happened.

quote>

So what we're told is right; don't question it. Have faith. Hmm..

I'll have faith in my all-of-a-sudden-there-was-a-big-bang theory, unless you can explain a bit clearer, I'm about this close *moves finger and thumb close together* to agnostic-ish.

Or we could go to the layers theory..

[the_new_simman 5]

Date: 12/27/2005 12:07:44 PM
Author: vidioman

Date: 12/27/2005 12:03:26 PM

Author: Mikeaut1

So you might say, 'How is all of this proven?' You just have to have faith and belief that these occurances happened.

quote>


So what we're told is right; don't question it. Have faith. Hmm..


I'll have faith in my all-of-a-sudden-there-was-a-big-bang theory, unless you can explain a bit clearer, I'm about this close *moves finger and thumb close together* to agnostic-ish.


Or we could go to the layers theory..

quote>

Okay, vid, what are you losing by being Christian? Nothing, you will get eternal glory in heaven AND prosper on Earth.

If you are an aethist, you are risking not going to heaven, because what if there actually is a God and a Hell? What will you do then? You'll be screwed.

[ancientsociety 26]

To begin, congrats to the mods for letting this thread continue. Also, EVERYONE here should pat themselves on the back for helping add to a DISCUSSION of religion on the internet, as this is a VERY RARE OCCURENCE.

 

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness (yeah, I know you're rolling your eyes - I am too!) but I left the faith, so to speak, in my teens. Since then, I have delved into many western and eastern faiths simply for a more complete and diverse worldview. As an adult, I simply won't place myself into an organized religion.

 

Let's put it this way. I believe that there is such a things as good and evil, although I don't think it is humankind's place to state positively that there is a god/gods/goddess(es) and that they are such and such or act in such and such way. I believe that there have been and will be holy men (Jesus, Buddha, etc.) but that they were not gods or saints just good men and women who strived to be better than their contemporaries. I don't believe in any one dogmatic text (Bible, Quran, Tao Te Ching, etc) but that we should all follow the golden rule - Do unto others as you would have do unto yourself.

 

I believe in science, but I also believe that where science ends, faith begins and that there are simply some things that can never be explained by science. I believe that evolution DOES NOT IN ANY WAY conflict with religious beliefs and that, those who say it does, have never read Darwin's work or know anything about the man (FYI: He studied to be a priest before he travelled on The Beagle). I believe that those people who think science is evil should live like Europeans did in the middle ages (no car, no healthcare, no sanitation, etc.), as their current lifestyle owes EVERYTHING to advances in science and, consequently, technology.

 

I believe that those who consider themselves persecuted for their beliefs are guilty or have been guilty in the past of persecuting others, and are thus not innocent. For example, there are MANY fundamentalist Christians who have posted here that they are persecuted but look at Christianity's history - the Crusades, the suppression of science and free speech by the Catholic Church, the Spanish Inquisition, the conquest and genocide of heathen Native Americans in the New World, etc. Having the Ten Commandments taken out of a PUBLIC BUILDING where it shouldn't belong in the first place is nowhere near comparable to have your tongue ripped out because you are a pagan or Jew. Also, don't forget that these same Christian charities that feed the poor also REQUIRE that these people study the Bible BEFORE they can get food.

 

I'm not trying to flame Christians, I am just saying that many of them are hypocrites. They claim to follow the words and actions of Jesus but their actions speak otherwise. Jesus would not have movie companies advertising in church (he rampaged against the money-changers). Jesus would not place the 10 Commandments in a public building (Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Give unto God what is God's). Jesus would not kill/harm (both actively or passively) in the name of converting non-believers or spreading the gospel.

[vidioman 21]

Interesting point, someone else who said something along those lines made me think a bit about it. I do find church a bit of a waste of time, though, and the constant bashing of people that arent them concerns me. If God loves everyone, race, gender, etc. shouldnt be an issue at all, should it?

If God wants me to go to hell, sobeit.

end of discussion.

---

Since this is a place of universal worship, this is what was told to me as a child.


Ojibwe people call themselves Anishanabe - which in English means simply The People. The story of The People begins with creation and how we came to live on this part of Mother Earth.

[Micah 16]

Date: 12/27/2005 12:03:26 PM Author: Mikeaut1

Date: 12/27/2005 11:54:17 AM Author: vidioman The big bang just happened. If something can't come out of nothing, where did God come from?

quote>

God has always been around, before the 'Big Bang' or any other universal explosion. He was the person who created the heavens and the earth, according to the first scripture of the Bible, Genesis 1:1. The premis of Genesis is to explain how the universe was created. It was created in 6 days, with one day of rest for God.

So you might say, 'How is all of this proven?' You just have to have faith and belief that these occurances happened.

But looking at nature, and the world around me, I personally think Creation By God is what has happened. This world is too complex and detailed for scientific creation!

quote>

    Yes, and the main theme behind the Big Bang and Evolution (sort of off-topic) is that everything is growing towards the better. That every mutation is creating a better and smarter animal, human, or being or something that can better handle its environment. But if we actually disect the world, mutations are actually causing problems which are usually known as deformations and certain desabilities. So like Mike said, live is too complex. Without the proper equations, live falls apart.

    Also, God created one of the best known lines, I am. Now if we look at our English book, 'am' is in future, now, and past tenses (and past perfect and etc.). So that means God as always been there. Which is hard to even think of. But like others said in this thread, you just have to have faith. One question that I'm surprised nobody has asked is, does that mean that God has to deal with time? Does that mean God didn't creat time? Even in movies that claim to stop time (like Clockstoppers) are actually slowing down the movement of atoms and objects because time is still going on whether they froze (stopped) objects or not. Also, is God in another demension? Does that mean he didn't creat demensions? I'll let you people decide the answer on your own.

[nicoflorez 0]

Well, if God created a hell, what is it for?, who should go to hell and who shouldn't?

Why didn't he design us all to be perfect Catholics, to have only one belief, to always behave well so that everyone goes to Heaven. If he didn't do that and he gave us independant minds, is it that it is funny for him to send the non-believers to hell or what?

[the_new_simman 5]

Date: 12/27/2005 1:36:25 PM Author: nicoflorez Well, if God created a hell, what is it for?, who should go to hell and who shouldn't? Why didn't he design us all to be perfect Catholics, to have only one belief, to always behave 'well' so that everyone goes to Heaven. If he didn't do that and he gave us independant minds, is it that it is 'funny' for him to send the non-believers to hell or what?

quote>

That goes back to Adam and Eve my friend. You can thank them for diobeying God and giving us original sin, but only you can fight it off.

[dev 47]

Date: 12/27/2005 1:36:25 PM
Author: nicoflorez
Well, if God created a hell, what is it for?, who should go to hell and who shouldn't?


Why didn't he design us all to be perfect Catholics, to have only one belief, to always behave 'well' so that everyone goes to Heaven. If he didn't do that and he gave us independant minds, is it that it is 'funny' for him to send the non-believers to hell or what?

quote>

This is how it happened:

God created everything, what you see, what you don't see, He made it all, and it was good.
Man sinned, the fall of man, the human race became corrupt and could not enter heaven.
The Wages of sin is death
So, if you've ever sinned, and we all have, you are going to hell.
ButUnless a perfect sacrifice was made we are doomed to hell.
Jesus Christ was a perfect sinless man, born of a virgin because the Holy Spirit concieved him thus making his seed perfect. He did not sin.
He was sacrificed for us on the cross, all of mine, and your sin was laid on his shoulders as he died on the cross.
I am the Way the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the father except through me
If we put our faith and trust in Christ and follow him, then we will be saved. If we do not, we will be rejected by God and sent to eternal damnation.


Not a pretty thing at all, but I believe it to be 100% true.


Also, in my PCA church, we recite the Nicene Creed as a confession of faith, but more commonly we use the Apostle's Creed...I am gonna try to type it from memory here....

---

I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only son, our LORD, who was concieved by the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucifed, dead, and buried, he descended into hell*. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he ascended into Heaven and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from thence he shall come to judge the quick and dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost, the holy catholic** church, the communion of saints, the forgivness of sins, the ressurection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

---

Basically all of that has deep symbolism, really cool actually...But for a few notes:

*Meaning he endured pain that one would consider a living hell. Not an actual descent to Hades.
**The word catholic actually means universal meaning I believe in one united church, not a single denomination.

[Superstar 69]

Well I wasn't sure if to post what I believe in here or not as it's just so different than what I've read on this thread so far.
Well I'm Jewish, always was going back to far generations. My mother side of the family is more religious than my fathers, well technicaly all my fathers side of the family isn't religious but his family unit alone is but wasn't originaly. Anyways all that makes me pretty religious from birth and still am as I always have been. I'm not too comfortable with talking more about what I believe in as it seems a huge large of the people here are Christian and as I'm Jewish I see things in a different prospective and don't want to start any arguments or anything like that here.
To put it simple I believe in God, heaven and hell it's just the main story behind it that is different.

[Micah 16]

^^^^ I actually found out through my great grandparents that I'm Jewish Polish (on my mother's side). Kinda cool to study family history.

Edited: Oh... well, back on topic.

[Yellowlab 11]

Date: 12/27/2005 12:15:00 PM Author: the_new_simman 

 Okay, vid, what are you losing by being Christian? Nothing, you will get eternal glory in heaven AND prosper on Earth. If you are an aethist, you are risking not going to heaven, because what if there actually is a God and a Hell? What will you do then? You'll be screwed.

quote>

 

Fear is no reason to embrace a religion.  My biggest problem with the church is the difference between God loves you and you'd better love him too, or you're burning in eternal agony.  That really doesn't make any sense at all...

 

Also, is anger/rage a sin?

[Praetorian Cohort 0]

Date: 12/27/2005 12:15:00 PM
Author: the_new_simman

Date: 12/27/2005 12:07:44 PM
Author: vidioman

Date: 12/27/2005 12:03:26 PM
Author: Mikeaut1
So you might say, 'How is all of this proven?' You just have to have faith and belief that these occurances happened.

quote>
So what we're told is right; don't question it. Have faith. Hmm..
I'll have faith in my all-of-a-sudden-there-was-a-big-bang theory, unless you can explain a bit clearer, I'm about this close *moves finger and thumb close together* to agnostic-ish.
Or we could go to the layers theory..

quote>
Okay, vid, what are you losing by being Christian? Nothing, you will get eternal glory in heaven AND prosper on Earth.

quote>
You're risking the true faith being Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Paganism, etc.

As for me, I'm in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, or Mormon church, depending on which one you're more familiar with. I would consider myself commited to the faith; I try to read scriptures/pray daily, I pay a full tithe, and I attend chuch weekly.

[louisville327 0]

In my experience, I have always asked my Christian friends (if the topic happened to come up) a simple question that none of them has ever been able to answer sufficiently. It's not a difficult question, but it's something that illustrates why faith, though both a powerful motivator and a profound comfort to many people, is not a viable method of determining truth.

The question is this:

Why are Hindus wrong?

Usually the only answer I get is The Bible says they are.

Unfortunately, that's a bit like saying Martians are real because H.G. Wells' book War Of The Worlds says they are. Simply because a very old book says something is true does not make it ultimately so. For it to do that, a person must rely on faith---the belief in something without need for facts or evidence. It's both the beauty and the crutch of religion.

Hinduism is based on the Vedas, a collection of ancient texts that dates back to perhaps 1700 BCE---and before they were written down, a wide tradition of oral history. The Vedas say, without a doubt, that their content is true. The Bible shares a similar history, with much of its base found in the Semitic lineage of Abraham, who lived around 1700 BCE. Whether Abraham really existed is another topic, as no historical evidence of his life can be found outside of the Bible itself. But anyway, I digress. Like the Vedas, the Bible says, without a doubt, that its content is true.

The point is that both traditions are about the same age. Judeo/Christian heritage and Hindu heritage arose at the same time but in isolated geographical areas.

All things being equal, there is no reason to assume that either tradition is more than the mythological heritage of a specific civilization, each separated only by geography. If all people are the creation of Abraham's God, as the Jews and Christians say, how is it possible for Hindus to exist? Wouldn't God have inspired all of his people everywhere to believe in Him as the Hebrews did? Or, why wouldn't Brahman, known as Ishvara, have inspired all of his people everywhere to believe in Him as the Hindus do?

It seems odd to me that a Supreme Being would allow a huge number of His own people to believe differing (and even contrary) interpretations of Himself (or not believe in Him at all), with each group conveniently divided into isolated geographical regions where cultural exchange was initially impossible. Since the Bible does not explain the existance of Hindus (and in essence, damns them to hell for being unbelievers) nor do the Vedas explain the existance of Jews or Christians, I'd wager the traditions that gave rise to modern-day Christianity and Hinduism were simply ignorant of each other. Seems odd that the One Supreme Being would allow something like this to happen.

There are only two conclusions:

1) Both Christians and Hindus are right, and they just happen to worship the same God by different names and rituals.

2) Both Christians and Hindus are wrong, and they have faith in nothing more than their own particular historical mythologies.


Otherwise, each Supreme Being just felt like excluding most of the Earth from His grace in favor of one initially isolated civilization. Why?

My Christian friends are always at a loss to explain this with anything more than, Well, the Bible says... It doesn't matter what the Bible says unless they can demonstrate why the Bible is true and the Vedas are not. Faith, by definition, cannot be proof.

In the meantime, I'm going to go on believing that Martians are real and among us because H.G. Wells said so...

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

@louisville327: My perspective is from a considerable distance, measured in lifetimes. I was born in 1937, and so that gives me about two biblical generations to consider the conundrum of a creator.

I note you say in your study that only 41% of scientists are against a creator. Leaves 59% in the for or unsure category. Where I come from that is sufficient for election.

At the same time, since the ideas of God, Heaven, Hell, Valhalla, Hel, etc. are all man made, and if there were a being in charge of all this, our attempts to qualify him must be, to a certain degree, hilarious assuming that there is a sense of the ridiculous present. See, there I go anthormorphizing. It is such an easy, stupid error to fall into.

With respect to those who are sure they are saved, don't be. Even Saint Joan wasn't sure. When Cauchon asked her if she was in a state of grace she responded that if she was in a state of grace she prayed God would keep her there, and if not, that he would place her there. Martyrs are such hysterics, in any case. Look at today's suicide bombing murderers.

I am sorry if this has pushed any hot buttons, but these are my thoughts. I may even be damned to hell, if there is one. However, I like the theory of unconditional redemption. In fact, the reason I remain a nominal Christian, other than upbringing, is that I like the ethos, and I am too lazy to find a better one.

[louisville327 0]

Date: 12/27/2005 6:56:24 PM
Author: N_O_Body
@louisville327: My perspective is from a considerable distance, measured in lifetimes. I was born in 1937, and so that gives me about two biblical generations to consider the conundrum of a creator.

I note you say in your study that only 41% of scientists are against a creator. Leaves 59% in the for or unsure category. Where I come from that is 'sufficient for election'.

quote>

You missed my point. I was responding to a comment that claimed that once you see the big picture, the belief in a supernatural creator is the only option. I tried to illustrate the fact that many people who try to see the big picture for a living have not accepted a supernatural creator---and at a much higher rate than the general public.

49% is a phenomenal number compared to 15%, the percent of non-religious people in the United States. It illustrates that big picture people tend to reject god at a much higher rate than the rest of us.

Sorry that was initally unclear.

[Meg 368]

Date: 12/27/2005 3:02:35 PM Author: Superstar

Well I wasn't sure if to post what I believe in here or not as it's just so different than what I've read on this thread so far. . . . I'm not too comfortable with talking more about what I believe in as it seems a huge large of the people here are Christian and as I'm Jewish I see things in a different prospective and don't want to start any arguments or anything like that here. To put it simple I believe in God, heaven and hell it's just the main story behind it that is different.

There is nothing wrong with seeing things from a different perspective.  That is a major strength of this thread: getting a chance to see different perspectives from different parts of the world.

 

Anyone, regardless of their beliefs or lack thereof, is welcome to post in this thread, as long as they are discussing the topic and issues and not the other people in the thread.

 

Date: 12/27/2005 2:06:58 AM Author: ephorex_77

 . . . Also (I know this is becoming a long post ), if forumers here (including myself) do something that is contrary to what is expected, could there be PMs and the deleting of posts as opposed to the shutting down of the entire thread?? We are, after all, treading into untested waters and we really are not sure as to what we can and can't do.

 

Yes, we can attempt to delete/edit posts and let the discussion continue.  If things get too crazy, we may have to pull the thread off the public board while it is being edited.  (This has happened in threads before.)

As to what we can and can

[SYM Productions 7]

Date: 12/27/2005 12:15:00 PM Author: the_new_simman

Date: 12/27/2005 12:07:44 PM Author: vidioman

Date: 12/27/2005 12:03:26 PM Author: Mikeaut1 So you might say, 'How is all of this proven?' You just have to have faith and belief that these occurances happened.

quote> So what we're told is right; don't question it. Have faith. Hmm.. I'll have faith in my all-of-a-sudden-there-was-a-big-bang theory, unless you can explain a bit clearer, I'm about this close *moves finger and thumb close together* to agnostic-ish. Or we could go to the layers theory..

quote> Okay, vid, what are you losing by being Christian? Nothing, you will get eternal glory in heaven AND prosper on Earth. If you are an aethist, you are risking not going to heaven, because what if there actually is a God and a Hell? What will you do then? You'll be screwed.

quote>

    Ok here's a different spin on this.  Please remind yourselves: my goal here is to put a different spin on the previous comment, but I am not implying anything.  I love to hear everyone's spiritual inclinations, and I desperately want for this thread to say open, and so I reserve the right to politely correct any possible misunderstanding vis-

[timotheus4 39]

Reading through this I just see so many things that are either or . I will try to speak as politely as I can without being or .

Do realize though that I am intolerant. I may even be offensive. What I mean by intolerant is this. Most people who have spoken here are in rebellion against God. This means that you will go to hell if you don't change your ways. That may sound hard but that is the truth. However, I take a hate the sin love the sinner attitude. I will not insult, discriminate against, take a holier-than-thou attidude towards, or otherwise be nasty to you. I am the most intolerant person in the world when it comes to speaking what is right. I am the most tolerant in the world when it comes to loving my fellow humans. (Note the hyperbole. In threads like this you can't be too careful.)

The website that TNS linked to, www.reformed.org , has a lot of great things besides the two creeds. I highly recommend it as a resource for those who truly want to know what the Bible teaches.

ID/Creation. I'm not going to really touch this one. I feel generally incompetent to hold my own against the machine of evolutionary thought. I do recommend www.icr.org and www.answersingenesis.org as resources for the curious. Note especially that ICR has completed a study on the age of the earth and has a technical book on the results for sale for $80 and a non-technical, shorter one for $14.

You never know what God has up His sleeves!

True, but God has given us a relatively simple formula in the Bible for who is saved and who is not. I quote Peter from Acts: Nor is there salvation in any other [speaking about Jesus], for there no other name under heaven, given among men, by which we must be saved. (Note the must)

Yellowlab...Genesis 3. A loving God created the world. Man fell, and the world with it. This is the reason why everything is so messed up. God, in His unending love, made everything all the more glorious by sending His Son to atone for man's sin. Thus

louisville327 - Scientists never had and do not have a monopoly on the truth. Science changes. Christ doesn't.

Sola scriptura...I await you on MSN, eph.

Deism is a very mild form of intelligent design. It is a sort of way to excuse people's conscionces about God.

So what we're told is right; don't question it. Have faith. Hmm..

Not necessarily. I consider my faith reasonable. But there still requires a leap of faith to get there. It's just not impossibly large. It takes faith to be agnostic, too...more faith than you think.

If God wants me to go to hell, sobeit.

I doubt you will have that attitude for long.

Some more general things:

All roads lead to God? This is patently impossible. Christianity, as I have shown, says that none others can be correct. Thus Christianity and X could not both be correct.

Many of people's doubts about religion come from the idea that there is no absolute, or if there is, we do not know it. The thing is is that there is an absolute and it has been shown. Relativism doesn't cut it.

My apologies for disjointedness. I'm not in the best of forms tonight. Hopefully some of what I've said is useful!