Labels on Streets

[Jurmie 3]

hi all ,i cant seem to see the labels for streets, water, etc. when i place them. note i dont mean the signes but the labels. i though there was a mod out there to make them bright green. but i cant seem to find it. any help would be appreciated.

[Prophet42 1,501]

In 'Options' do you have the labels turned on?

[Jurmie 3]

yes. i tried turning off and on again but still no text for labels.

 

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

What brand of streets are you using? Do you have any mods that might interfere with the labels?

[HayleyRenaNemeth 465]

keep in mind when you make modifications to your transportation network , the label on that particular network will go away. for this reason I always use signs. 

[rsc204 21,814]

4 hours ago, AprilAero said:

keep in mind when you make modifications to your transportation network , the label on that particular network will go away. for this reason I always use signs. 

Indeed, this is why I too stopped using the labels, one click, even a number of tiles away can easily delete them. If they are hidden at the time, you won't even notice.

Can you just confirm though, are you saying, even when you create a new label, it does not appear? Adding one should always switch labels on. Check first your graphics settings in-game, make sure everything is on high, see if that changes anything. A lot of things do not show if you use Med/Low settings. Also, whilst you are there, let us know if you have the renderer set of either software or hardware mode.

The next thing you need to do is verify that no plug-in or mod is causing the problem. Do this by temporarily moving all your plugins files elsewhere (the simplest way is to rename the Plugins folder to something else). Run the game and test the results, making sure to use a new, blank region/city for this test. Note that SC4 will have created a new empty Plugins folder. You'll need to delete that and revert the name change you made previously to restore your original plugins. If that test doesn't work, I can only recommend an uninstall/re-install of the entire game.

[matias93 7,535]

1 minute ago, rsc204 said:

4 hours ago, AprilAero said:

keep in mind when you make modifications to your transportation network , the label on that particular network will go away. for this reason I always use signs. 

Indeed, this is why I too stopped using the labels, one click, even a number of tiles away can easily delete them. If they are hidden at the time, you won't even notice.

same thing here, that's why I ended playing with powerpoint on the background, having maps of the region and the cities opened to register things as toponyms and network names. Is much slower and less practical, but gives you certitude that the data won't simply vanish.

By the way, how hard-coded is this function? Maybe some DLL magic could help with this, once some programming wizard finds the way (since the SC4fix miracle, I tend to believe all SC4 limitations are just a DLL away to be resolved, somewhat naively)

[rsc204 21,814]

41 minutes ago, matias93 said:

y the way, how hard-coded is this function? Maybe some DLL magic could help with this, once some programming wizard finds the way (since the SC4fix miracle, I tend to believe all SC4 limitations are just a DLL away to be resolved, somewhat naively)

In this case, I have a feeling the behaviour is a result of how RUL code is resolved, which would make it pretty tightly woven into the code. Every click with a network tool forces the game to look a number of tiles in each direction to see if anything needs changing. You know how when you replace a large section of a network with a new override, you must click a lot, every 7-8 tiles or so to update everything? I suspect it's less a case of Maxis planned for the labels to be wiped out when you did this, but that it's tied into network in such a way that it happens when you do. As such, it wouldn't be a case of setting a value differently or altering a simple bit of code. If I'm right, you'd need to add a whole new module that handled labels in a different way, including being able to write/read that data to/from save files.

The big problem is, I don't know of anyone that's looked at the source code aside from @simmaster07. In theory, adding .DLLs opens up a whole bunch of new possibilities. In practise, adding new code to a large complex game engine that's undocumented, is a painstaking task. Before you can alter any behaviour, you must decipher how that part of the code works. Even if you are a great coder, looking at the code of others isn't always intuitive, much as how you can say the same thing in many different ways, code can be quite a personal thing. Once you've found how something works, then it's just a case of altering the behaviour. But a DLL isn't re-writing the code, it's simply complementing that which already exists. This too can place limitations on what you can do. Using the example of language, coding is a bit like a foreign language in many ways, (only with a lot more math ). Say I write on a piece of paper "Once upon a time, a young woman was standing in the middle of a forest..." If you then came along and wanted that person to be in the middle of a city instead, it would be much harder to make that fit, if you couldn't re-write my initial opener. The point being, it adds an additional layer of complexity to the whole thing. Because instead of just starting with the woman in the city, you now have to write a plausible way for her to get from the forest to the city first.

Realistically speaking, there aren't many people who could dig this deep into the game, even if they were inclined to do so. Whilst I'm sure we'll see some nice little surprises as a result of the discovery, I doubt that will be any huge revolutions in terms of how the game works. That said, I can never thank SimMaster07 enough for fixing the last "unfixable" bug that caused me no end of grief. Anything else at this point is just gravy.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

16 hours ago, rsc204 said:

In this case, I have a feeling the behaviour is a result of how RUL code is resolved, which would make it pretty tightly woven into the code. ..

The big problem is, I don't know of anyone that's looked at the source code aside from @simmaster07. ..

a DLL isn't re-writing the code, it's simply complementing that which already exists...

Say I write on a piece of paper "Once upon a time, a young woman was standing in the middle of a forest..." If you then came along and wanted that person to be in the middle of a city instead, it would be much harder to make that fit...

Realistically speaking, there aren't many people who could dig this deep into the game, even if they were inclined to do so. Whilst I'm sure we'll see some nice little surprises as a result of the discovery, I doubt that will be any huge revolutions in terms of how the game works. That said, I can never thank SimMaster07 enough for fixing the last "unfixable" bug that caused me no end of grief. Anything else at this point is just gravy.

If RUL code, then it could be related to mods that use that. If you're using NAM, then after narrowing the case further, it might be reportable to them.

Simmaster07 was shown SOURCE code (hard to believe unless he worked at Maxis)? Or did he poke around inside a DLL (dynamically linked library)? A DLL is a bunch of compiled code and perhaps data resources. It's like a slice of an EXE kept in a separate file (and theoretically shareable with other programs). I'd be amazed if he was able to change any logic, but it's quite possible to fix many game bugs by altering data. I have downloaded and installed one "DLL mod", but I forget what it fixed.

In your example, if the program logic said, "Once upon a time, a young woman was standing in the middle of a <place>...", and there was a data table at the end of the EXE or DLL file where I noticed the word "forest", then I could replace "forest" with "city" (or perhaps " city " to pad it out to the same length). Data tables can be found in EXE and DLL files by looking for patterns of fixed-length records toward the end of the file. It's then a cryptography puzzle to decode the numbers and match them to values seen in-game. I've done that for other games for decades, but I haven't bothered SC4 because so much is accessible via DAT files and the tools others have already made.

So, the essence is that in compiled code, data can often be analyzed and fixed, but compiled logic is almost impossible. The good news for SC4 (if I've understood other discussions) is that RUL code is stored like data, so some people have figured out how to work it.

 

[rsc204 21,814]

On 20/01/2017 at 9:30 PM, jeffryfisher said:

Simmaster07 was shown SOURCE code (hard to believe unless he worked at Maxis)? Or did he poke around inside a DLL (dynamically linked library)?

He has managed to get to the source code using the Mac version of the game. Unlike the Windows one, this is not encrypted, so if you know what you are doing, you can poke around. Without seeing the code and understanding it, you wouldn't be able to make a .DLL, because the .DLL must work with this code.

On 20/01/2017 at 9:30 PM, jeffryfisher said:

A DLL is a bunch of compiled code and perhaps data resources. It's like a slice of an EXE kept in a separate file (and theoretically shareable with other programs).

In the sense of SC4 a .DLL can be used like an additional module that can amend the behaviour of the code. So in the case of the SC4Fix mod, during a certain sequence (PP over TE lot), the game generates an error that the code is unable to resolve. Such hiccups generally cause a CTD, because computers don't like it when they don't know what to do. The .DLL simply looks for that code, jumps in when it happens and alters the value of the error to one that prevents the CTD. Instead of an error code SC4 can't handle, it changes it to one the game can handle and will simply ignore instead. But, the actual code has not really been changed, it's been amended.

So in my example, which is not strictly accurate, but more written to help those non-technical folks understand it with an analogy. The woman still goes to the forest, only the DLL listens for that action, if it occurs, it steps in and sends back that she has gone elsewhere (an expected result). That's really all my point here was, that the code isn't altered, it's appended. This is an important distinction, because the code in the .DLL has to work with whatever is already happening inside the .exe code. We can modify the .exe, but expect a call from EA's lawyers if you try to distribute that. That's why the .DLL is such a break-through, since in the past, there has been no way to make the game recognise (load) a third party .DLL. Having vaulted that barrier, we are now free to make .DLLs, but they don't alter the main code, they work in tandem with it. The problem is that you still need to understand exactly how something is working in the main code, in order to make the new code that adjusts the behaviour. So the woman (in my analogy) will always start in the forest before going elsewhere, she can never start anywhere else.

On 20/01/2017 at 9:30 PM, jeffryfisher said:

he good news for SC4 (if I've understood other discussions) is that RUL code is stored like data, so some people have figured out how to work it.

RUL is just one part of the code for the game. RUL covers a number of very specific functions. It's most associated with the NAM team, because in reality, we're the only ones who adjust and add to the existing code. It's not possible to use two competing sets of RUL, they could conflict, if there was a free for all, it would be a nightmare to keep everything working in harmony. So the NAM team basically maintain the code for the benefit of all. Anyone is free to contribute, but in reality, you need to release the code through the NAM package.

RUL0 covers the menus you see for transit networks and the interaction of them. What goes where and the order of items inside them which you select using the TAB / Home / End keys. This is all laid out in RUL0.

RUL1 handles how networks interact with each other. So for example if two base networks meet, there needs to be code to tell the game what to do with the tile/(s) where they intersect.

RUL2 allows us to override which texture/piece is shown in a given situation. For example, it tells the game to switch streets to a SAM network, when a suitable starter is placed. It's most useful for such override networks. A good example of this behaviour is the diagonal Road x Rail crossing. Note how this is three tiles long, not just one. That's because RUL2 tells the game when a diagonal road is next to the actual crossing, to use a diagonal road piece which shows a stop line, rather than the regular diagonal road texture. (note this only happens when the diagonal is in 2 of the 4 possible rotations).

The point being, we can do a lot of things (NAM-type things), with RUL code. But RUL code is never going to give us access to alter the main functionality/code of the game. For example, we can not change how the game deals with RUL, only the RUL itself. That said, if this area was locked in the .exe, there would be no NAM. More on RUL for those who might be interested can be found here.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

Quote

He has managed to get to the source code using the Mac version of the game.

I still can't believe it. Games are not distributed with source code included. Maybe he decompiled the EXE or a DLL into something resembling a high-level language, but he would need access to Maxis' archives to get real C++ source code. Even with that, after all these years, Maxis (or whomever owns its archives) would probably have difficulty laying its hands on original source code files.

I'll have to ask him what he actually saw.

Quote

RUL2 allows us to override which texture/piece is shown in a given situation.

Aha. The dead-end look of the road and rail abutting my CDK3 container port is probably due to RUL2 not knowing that the lot has its entry gates where those network pieces could "join up".

[rsc204 21,814]

7 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

Aha. The dead-end look of the road and rail abutting my CDK3 container port is probably due to RUL2 not knowing that the lot has its entry gates where those network pieces could "join up".

Nope... see my reply in your other post. RUL doesn't really have anything to do with TE lots. TE lots aren't really transport networks as-such.

7 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

I still can't believe it. Games are not distributed with source code included.

Indeed. It's not just there for all too see, but as I say, the Windows version is encrypted and you'd need to do some serious reverse-engineering to get at it. But, the Mac port was not encrypted, so it's possible to decompile it. Take a look at these threads, a lot of the how was explained in detail:

 

 

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

Quote

Take a look at these threads...

Aha, now those make sense. The only source code mentioned is some other modder's early attempt at a DLL hack. The Maxis code was analyzed at an assembly code level (very cool). I wish I knew enough to patch RR Tycoon II bugs that way.

[rsc204 21,814]

4 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

I wish I knew enough to patch RR Tycoon II bugs that way.

It's a shame the code went missing, but sadly that's all too common. Even big companies like Nintendo and Sega didn't do the best job in the world of keeping copies of source code. Many re-releases were only possible by disassembling old code or in some cases by using roms from the internet!

Isn't RR Tycoon another of Microprose's titles, like Transport Tycoon? They were generous enough to completely open source that, the progress is quite amazing really. It was the first PC game I ever bought, but RR Tycoon (the original) was the first PC game I ever played. Actually it's quite sad to think that CO have no intention of fixing many of the problems with Cities Skylines. The rail/transport system there could easily be the spiritual successor to those games. Much like Cities in Motion. But, unlike Microprose, nothing they create seems to really work.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

The original RR Tycoon was done by Sid Meier at Microprose. RR Tycoon II was developed at Pop Top and distributed by Take2.

[Jurmie 3]

On 1/19/2017 at 6:30 PM, rsc204 said:

Check first your graphics settings in-game, make sure everything is on high, see if that changes anything. A lot of things do not show if you use Med/Low settings. Also, whilst you are there, let us know if you have the renderer set of either software or hardware mode.

so back to labels, although this has become an interesting read, my settings are high, i have removed plugins and i have tried both hardware and software for the render.

 

[rsc204 21,814]

Yes, I'm sorry things did go off on a tangent a little there...

If none of those things worked, then there is a problem with your game. Switching to software rendering takes the graphics card/drivers out of the equation, which is the only reason why they may not show that isn't directly related to SC4 itself. When you switched this setting, did you re-start the game completely before checking? Because the renderer can not be switched on the fly, a message box would have told you this.

So step 2 here, you need to verify you have properly patched your game, it could be a bug Maxis fixed a long time ago. If you have a CD/Disk version of SC4, that will require two patches, the EP1 patch, in addition to the Nitelighting patch. With both installed, your game version should show as 1.1.640.0. To see this, find the install directory, in the apps subfolder is a file SimCity 4.exe. Right click on that and select Properties, then look in the Details tab. Alternately, digital versions may show as 1.1.641.0. These version typically come pre-patched and should not require you to install them.

If your version number is not 640/641, your game is not properly patched. In which case, see here to download/install the patches for the game. Bear in mind, all this information related to the Deluxe version of SC4, just to double check, you do have the deluxe version?, or SC4 + the Rush Hour addon, which is the same thing.

Having ensured your game is fully patched, if that doesn't resolve the issue, then step 3 is to uninstall and re-install the game, something is wrong/missing and re-installation is the best way to solve things.

One thing worth mentioning, if you are using any non-genuine files as part of your install (NoCD cracks or simply a pirated copy for example), you won't be able to patch your game.

 

[Jurmie 3]

i am running the steam version, deluxe with rush hour. i found that i am not able to switch to hardware, it always sets it back to software. version is 1.1.641.0.

 

and yes i did a restart when i switched the renderer

[rsc204 21,814]

Well I just double-checked and these labels appear fine when using software rendering. Since that is GPU-agnostic, the problem isn't caused by use of software rendering. The Steam version is always pre-patched, so that's not the problem. If you removed all mods, that's not the issue either. Taking all these things into account, there are only two solutions I can offer you.

1. Check, double-check and then triple-check you are using the labels correctly. Try it with placing them on the Avenue network, since they are most visible there. Perhaps you simply aren't using this feature correctly.
2. Re-installing the entire game (uninstall first). Note your plugins and regions will be safe, so long as you don't tell the uninstaller to remove them.

Everything else I can think that might cause problems here has been exhausted. It's possible (though not likely), some file is corrupted or missing that's behind this.

29 minutes ago, Jurmie said:

i found that i am not able to switch to hardware, it always sets it back to software

Whilst not related to the other problem at hand. That suggests that your graphics cards or drivers don't correctly function with SC4. So when it tries to initiate hardware rendering, it fails, so resorts to the software renderer which is there as a last resort to ensure the game works on all systems. You will probably find this is solvable, which would lead to better performance in game and higher fidelity. Assuming you care enough about such things to take a little time to fix them, take a look here:

Note: If you are using either Intel HD Graphics (on-board) or ATI-Based graphics, ensure you have the latest drivers from the respective vendor before continuing. Both these vendors have recently released updates that fix issues that were preventing SC4 from running well with hardware rendering.

[Jurmie 3]

thank you for your responses, i have used the label tool on multiple roads and nothing appears, on my old cd version from years ago (and many computers ago) the labels were working. so i will try a re-install. i have found some info on the graphics card issues. I am coming back to sc4 after years of not playing and kinda starting fom scratch again so i appreciate the help and advice.

[Jurmie 3]

so i did the re install and followed the compatibility settings you recommended. i have my labels back! and im running the hardware for the renderer. thanks again.

[rsc204 21,814]

3 hours ago, Jurmie said:

so i did the re install and followed the compatibility settings you recommended. i have my labels back! and im running the hardware for the renderer. thanks again.

Cool - The reinstall is one of those "just to cover all the bases" type of solutions. I wasn't optimistic it would help. Glad you've got things working well however. A couple tips, since you are returning, just in case you missed them...

Make sure you've applied the I-HT fix to your game, without it I-HT won't employ R$$$ sims, which can be ruinous:

If you were unaware of it, get yourself this fix, which resolves the last of the issues that can cause a CTD when playing:

Lastly, if you've not done so, make sure to set SC4 to run on only one core of your CPU. Failure to do so leads to CTDs:

There are plenty of other little fixes out there, but those three make a big difference. With them, SC4 should be rock solid, even on new hardware.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

Note: If you install CAM 2.1, an I-HT fix comes with it.

Someday, some clever person at Steam may pack an I-HT fix into their distribution. We will have to watch out for that.

[rsc204 21,814]

8 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

Someday, some clever person at Steam may pack an I-HT fix into their distribution. We will have to watch out for that.

If I were to bet who would do this, it wouldn't be Steam, it'd be GoG.

They are the only seller who took the time to add the -CPUCount: 1 into the shortcut as standard. That's necessary to stop CTDs on multi-core machines. But the point is that GoG listen to customer feedback and try to improve their releases.

Steam, Origin and most of the other sellers couldn't care less, once they've got your money, if the game doesn't work, that's your problem.