Hate always finds buyers.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Organized against Islam

 

Hate organizations always find fertile ground.  Mind you, some Islamic people make a big issue of the wrong things.  They can't expect to foist their legal code on those of countries who have had this experience already with the Vatican.

[Compdude787 916]

Good for these guys. There's nothing wrong with people speaking out against a "religion" that condones terrorism.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

No matter how you look at it proselyzation is wrong.  It is a form of brain washing.  Religions are systems that have answers that may not be questioned.  What is the use of that in face of science with has questions which may have no answers?  Let's hear it for Gallileo Galliliei ("Eppur si muove").

[Meg 368]

OTOH, Christianity does not seek to forcibly impose their beliefs on others. As a Christian myself, I think of evangelizing as just telling people about Jesus, and let them make the decision themselves about whether they want to accept it. If not, oh well...

 

 

 

Christianity does not seek to forcibly impose their beliefs on others in this century.   This was not always the case.   A Brief History of the Inquisition. 

 

Nonny has said several times that he believes that Islam is in the Inquisition phase of its growth.   I suspect he may be right. 

 

Let's hope it doesn't take 400 years this time.

[unnamed 174]

 

OTOH, Christianity does not seek to forcibly impose their beliefs on others. As a Christian myself, I think of evangelizing as just telling people about Jesus, and let them make the decision themselves about whether they want to accept it. If not, oh well...

 

 

 

Christianity does not seek to forcibly impose their beliefs on others in this century.   This was not always the case.   A Brief History of the Inquisition. 

 

Nonny has said several times that he believes that Islam is in the Inquisition phase of its growth.   I suspect he may be right. 

 

Let's hope it doesn't take 400 years this time.

 

Let's hope it doesn't happen. 

[Compdude787 916]

I'm pretty sure that those who participated in the Inquisition would not end up in heaven. They are not true Christians. The Bible doesn't condone anything that they did. Also, I don't understand why evangelizing is considered brainwashing by A Nonny Moose; have a little tolerance for religions, dude. How is telling someone about your religious beliefs any different than telling someone what you think about any other topic? They're both your personal beliefs about different subjects.

[unnamed 174]

I'm pretty sure that those who participated in the Inquisition would not end up in heaven. They are not true Christians. The Bible doesn't condone anything that they did. Also, I don't understand why evangelizing is considered brainwashing by A Nonny Moose; have a little tolerance for religions, dude. How is telling someone about your religious beliefs any different than telling someone what you think about any other topic? They're both your personal beliefs about different subjects.

I also agree! (Christian here too!) But the koran does allow and encourage that kind of death and violence. (inquisition) 

[henrys1996 127]

I'm pretty sure that those who participated in the Inquisition would not end up in heaven. They are not true Christians. The Bible doesn't condone anything that they did. Also, I don't understand why evangelizing is considered brainwashing by A Nonny Moose; have a little tolerance for religions, dude. How is telling someone about your religious beliefs any different than telling someone what you think about any other topic? They're both your personal beliefs about different subjects.

I'm not one to talk too much about religion, but I mostly agree with what you're saying here. I do believe that there is nothing wrong in and of itself to talk to others about your own religious beliefs (and no, it really is no different than giving your viewpoint of anything else) but what I think A Nonny Moose is probably referring to is when people try to condemn other people's beliefs and make them feel forced to blindly pursue something they really don't believe. This is something from personal experience that I have witnessed in the past, and many cults are produced from this attempt to "evangelize" people. And yes, I am another to say that the concept of religion is flawed, because of how literal or personal people take it (see Fundamentalism in the 19th and 20th centuries). Faith can be a very good thing to have sometimes, but when people abuse of it to do horrible things (like kill, for one), it ends up working in their detriment. Obviously, most believers don't take their faiths to such an extent, but you'd be surprised to see how many people do. I must say, though, you are 100% right by saying how people in the Inquisition (and let's throw in the Crusades as well) were by no means real Christians. Loving thy neighbor does not mean doing away with their head for not agreeing with you, plain and simple.

[Duke87 1,070]

How is telling someone about your religious beliefs any different than telling someone what you think about any other topic?

 

It isn't. But the problem isn't what is being done, it's when, where, and how it is being done.

 

It's fine to voice one's opinion on a subject if the subject is currently under discussion, or if their opinion is asked for. To go around telling people one's opinion when it is not asked for and is not contextually relevant is spammy and annoying. If some random stranger on the street tries to talk to me about Jesus they will be met with the same response as a random stranger on the street trying to talk to me about anything else: I will ignore them and keep walking, and if they block my path they will be firmly told to get lost.

 

To their credit, though, the Jesus people are usually the least in your face and the easiest to ignore.

[dlsni 156]

Islam does not have many followers.

There are many radical extremists and terrorists who self-identify as Muslims.

It is estimated that between 1/5 and 3/5 of people who believe in Islam or self-identify as Muslims are violent, extremists, terrorists, or agree with/support terrorists.

Therefore, Islam deserves it's bad public image.

--Ocram

Good for these guys. There's nothing wrong with people speaking out against a "religion" that condones terrorism.

'Bout d**n time. Islam needs to be completely eradicated and abolished and those who believe in it eradicated.

what is wrong with you people

does the catholic church condone paedophilia? do baptists condone killing gays in the name of Jesus?

Ocram, please source your stats

you cannot fight hate with hate. I absolutely agree with Germany turning it's back on this group, this group is practicing the same type of hate and clouded judgement that these "rampant" islamic terrorists do. Extremism is everywhere (as evidenced by this article) and fighting extremism with extremism just leads to more violence and hate. the answer, I believe, is education and dismantling the systems that encourage these groups to become established and thrive, rather than putting a blanket term on "muslims" or "conservatives" and continuing to alienate them - which in turn will lead many to extremism.

[Meg 368]

I'm pretty sure that those who participated in the Inquisition would not end up in heaven. They are not true Christians. The Bible doesn't condone anything that they did.

 

Whether that is true or not is irrelevant.   That is "Christianity" was practiced at the time.

 

Was it wrong?  Yes.  Was it against everything Jesus preached?  Yes.     Fact remains that is how the so-called Christian world approached things.   Fortunately things have matured since then and it isn't as bad.

 

 

 Also, I don't understand why evangelizing is considered brainwashing by A Nonny Moose; have a little tolerance for religions, dude. How is telling someone about your religious beliefs any different than telling someone what you think about any other topic? They're both your personal beliefs about different subjects.

 

 

Discussion is one thing.  I'm all in favor of it.    But some things are just TMI. 

[NMUSpidey 3,956]

Context.  This is the word almost everyone is missing in this thread.  Context.  People who grow up in Muslim countries, particularly countries run by Wahabist lunatics, do NOT grow up with similar experiences to those of us lucky to be born in a modern, more-or-less-democratic society, and therefore they are going to operate under different expectations for their fellow humans and they are going to make different assumptions about them as well.  When people say crap like "all Muslims support terrorists," perhaps some 'support' it only because their family will be violently murdered in their home country if they say something different.  Does anyone run that risk in your home country?  I'm pretty sure that if I say life in the US sucked and I want to become Japanese, no one is going murder and rape my family because I became some kind of apostate or whatever, and likewise my wife if she decided to tell Japan to suck it and became American, there aren't Japanese extremists running around and murdering and raping people for perceived slights whereas in certain places this is a legitimate danger.  We cannot view these immigrants/refugees in the same way we view each other because, in the case of Syrian refugees, native Germans born since 1950 have no idea what it's like trying to live in a war zone with people actively trying to murder everything around them.  These pergida people make me sick to my stomach.  ANY group that has ties, especially ties this close, to Nazis, is despicable at best.  There are better ways to make your voice heard that to partner up with the Hitlers and Goebbels of the world.  Perhaps by reaching out to these groups of immigrants and teaching them German/learning about their homes and experiences BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO BE DIFFERENT, etc etc.  Nazism and shouting for the eradication of a religion is the exact opposite of what we are doing.  

[TekindusT 3,809]

 There are better ways to make your voice heard that to partner up with the Hitlers and Goebbels of the world.  Perhaps by reaching out to these groups of immigrants and teaching them German/learning about their homes and experiences BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO BE DIFFERENT, etc etc.  Nazism and shouting for the eradication of a religion is the exact opposite of what we are doing.  

 

One of the few sensible opinions I have read on this thread so far.

 

But remember, this "speak German at home" thing was proposed a few weeks ago [link], during the first Pegida demonstrations, and it raised more than a few eyebrows. Perhaps a map that really puts into context the current level of inmigration (in Berlin, the paramount case), can show why Pegida is just a wrong idea [link].

 

All the thing going on in Germany makes me quite afraid, and it makes me even more afraid to see it is allowed by the current government.This goes away of religious issues. The people who demonstrate are trying to (wrongly) agree on a target in which deposit their hate about "how wrong is Germany going these days". There is a very thin line between a demonstration and beginning to attack people or their businesses. And once the situation gets out of hand, nobody knows where it could reach. 

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

Okay. I am just going to say this very calmly for you all as there has been a surprising amount of hate being passed around.

I understand that there is the natural fear, but that needs to be overriden with logic. I want you to name every terrorist that has been in the news over the past say, 10 years. How many could you think of? 50? Perhaps you might be able to say there is another 2,000 more supporting them. Either way. That's minuscule when you compare it to the one billion Muslims in the World. I'm pretty sure we know a Muslim or two (I do through some of my brothers university friends). Surely they are good people. They are the rule, not the exception.

Compdude787, firstly please understand I am definitely not trying to delegitimise your beliefs and I fully respect your religion. However I am going to just post, that I am an atheist and I have my reasons for having this belief (or rather lack of ) Consequently, you have your own and your own reasons for thinking it is the true belief system. Would you like it if I came up to you in the street and tried to preach that there is no God? I am willing to bet you would feel harassed at the least, offended at the worst that I could just come up to you and try telling you what's what when you are set in your ways and have very valid reasons for having those ways. This is what a majority of people feel and why I dislike the idea of evangelism. I believe the doors should be kept open but you shouldn't feel like you have to come in when asked to.

Either way, that's just my two cents on the matter.

Finishing off here though, I will just share a short story that has kept with me for a long time. When I was in high school we went to the Holocaust Museum, and someone asked a survivor there if he "hated Germans". The old man replied that "there are good Germans and bad Germans. Just as there are good Jews and bad Jews." You cannot blame a whole group on a few bad apples. You throw the bad apples out and keep munching on the good stuff.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

My friends, and I hope I may call you that, I am not particularly down on religion per se.  You can be as religious as you like. 

 

However, as one grows older, one finds the need for answers that may not be questioned more and more questionable.  Religious dogma is like a fine woven rug, but when you discover a hole in it, it may unravel by itself.  Look hard, and try and find anyone who can reliably read the ancient writings accurately and with no bias.

[MandelSoft 2,769]

They are not true Christians.

I see a logical falicy here...

I also see this falicy pop up:

Please keep your logic straight

[Compdude787 916]

I don't these those fallacies apply here with my argument. The generalizations I am making are fine because it is reality that most Christians do not believe that violence is okay without provocation, so I am totally right in saying that no true Christian would condone the Inquisition. Now, the Crusades were justified because they were a reaction to Muslims taking over what was predominantly Christian areas. I'd definitely agree that the actions of the Inquisition were not okay and do not represent true Christian values, and pretty much all Christians would agree. Hence, me using the "no true Scotsman" fallacy was not a fallacy; it was reality!

The second fallacy you bring up is truth, not a hasty generalization like you think. It's common sense that pretty much all terrorists are Muslims, BUT not all Muslims are terrorists. There are definitely some Muslims are peaceful (at least they might be on the surface), but sadly, they're the exception to the rule. If you still think radical Muslims are a minority, wait till you watch this:

 

EDIT: If you're still not convinced....

I totally agree with Bill Maher when he says that it is contradictory for liberals not to speak out against Islam.

 

EDIT2: Just realized that now you're going to call me out for committing an "authority fallacy" with these videos. By attacking only the way I presented my argument instead of refuting what I actually said, you are actually proving me right because you are demonstrating that you've run out of rational counterpoints and instead have to make fun of the way I presented my argument.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

"most Christians do not believe that violence" is carrying things a little far, don't you think?  If that were true, what would you need with a fifth commandment?  Oh, yes, let's not forget that Christianity is a sect of Judaism.

[LexusInfernus 908]

The second fallacy you bring up is truth, not a hasty generalization like you think. It's common sense that pretty much all terrorists are Muslims, BUT not all Muslims are terrorists. There are definitely some Muslims are peaceful (at least they might be on the surface), but sadly, they're the exception to the rule. If you still think radical Muslims are a minority, wait till you watch this:

 

Alright, that video is a lot of crap, lets rip it apart. 

 

The guy does not really define what radicalism is. He mentions things like support for strict sharia law, the belief that 9-11 was done by the US or Israel government and support for Bin Laden. Now, if we take those first two criteria than a good number of Americans are Muslim extremists as well. After all, how many still believe all the Alex Jones conspiracy bullcrap about 9-11? The whole 9-11 truther movement? Oh right, them. And what about the Sharia interpretation of law? Well okay, how is that different from Christians wanting more bible in their law? Or Christians wanting to live according to biblical principles? As I understand, that is also a fairly popular thing in the US. That aside, Sharia law by itself is not the same as supporting radical Islam. Its kinda the same as saying in the west that you want separation of church and state. We don't consider people that say that to be radical secularists either. Thats just a fairly normal thing to want. 

 

Now, for that last thing, support for Bin Laden, its something that is not properly clarified. Yeah, people there support Bin Laden, but that doesn't mean they support radical Islam or terrorism in general. They support Bin Laden because of his anti-America rhetoric. Is being against a country or generally not liking the United States suddenly the same as supporting radical Islam? Yeah, no, those things are unrelated. 

 

Basically, what bigots like that Ben Shapiro say is that the more Muslims want to live according to their own religious and judicial customs, the more they openly say they don't want to be like 'us' or 'the west' the more they are painted as radicals. This is, quite literally, the ultimate form of Eurocentric, neo colonial, neo imperial way of thinking. 

 

Also, the numbers of those studies are suspect at best. In countries where there is no free speech, it remains to be seen to what degree people give honest answers and to what degree they are just saying because everyone else is also saying it. 

[Compdude787 916]

"most Christians do not believe that violence" is carrying things a little far, don't you think?  If that were true, what would you need with a fifth commandment?  Oh, yes, let's not forget that Christianity is a sect of Judaism.

No, my statement was NOT "carrying things a little far."

 

I don't even want to debate stuff on this forum if my views are just going to be censored. I know I've said "screw it, I'm done debating here" before, but having my views censored is crossing the line for me. Why bother giving us a place for us to express our opinions on world events if you can't even handle our opinions? Why should I bother wasting my time posting my opinions if there's a possibility that I'll be censored? You obviously don't care about free speech. I arrest my case here.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Free speech guarantees you the right to say whats on your mind. It however, does not exempt you from criticism. Criticism on your statements is not censorship. Public disagreement on your statements is not censorship. 

 

Also, this is a privately maintained website. It does not have total free speech, instead it is completely at the discretion of the moderator team to allow or remove speech if they deem it goes against the rules or interests of Simtropolis. 

[Compdude787 916]

Free speech guarantees you the right to say whats on your mind. It however, does not exempt you from criticism. Criticism on your statements is not censorship. Public disagreement on your statements is not censorship. 

No, that's not what I view as censorship. Posts were actually removed in this thread; ask a mod if you don't believe me. Obviously I cannot and do not want to censor my own views; I like to be forthright with my views, so clearly I should go somewhere else to express them. It's just that I see your views, and I so strongly disagree with them that I have to pipe in.

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

Yes it is true that posts were removed, as the staff found them to be inflammatory.

We don't mind you all debating things on the Current Events board, however they need to be toned down a little sometimes. If you cannot agree to these terms, we do not force you to stay here at Simtropolis; you can refuse to patronise the website at any time.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Yeah I saw someone here calling for what can only be seen as genocide. No wonder that sort of stuff gets removed. I'd say thats the mods doing a good job  

[Compdude787 916]

Where does this entitlement mentality stem from? When did freedom of speech turn into a requirement to print?

And this "all terrorists are Muslims" crap: there are Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, regional, criminal terrorists. Indeed, in this day and age many terrorists are Muslims, but just because you refuse to deal with the complexities of the world does make you more right. Just more of an idiot.

If you're unwilling to back up your claim about there being terrorists of other religions, then it isn't worth making. It also isn't worth debating people who will call me an "idiot" just because they disagree with me, or who say "you're mean/intolerant to Muslims," "you're an Islamophobe," or "that's hate speech." Come up with a rational counterpoint and back it up with solid evidence, please!

 

This will be my last post on any Muslim-related topic so I'd like to finish it off with some quotes from some famous people:

• "If liberty means anything at all, it is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." -George Orwell
• "But that a camel-merchant [Mohammed] should stir up insurrection in his village; that in league with some miserable followers he persuades them that he talks with the angel Gabriel; that he boasts of having been carried to heaven, where he received in part this unintelligible book, each page of which makes common sense shudder; that, to pay homage to this book, he delivers his country to iron and flame; that he cuts the throats of fathers and kidnaps daughters; that he gives to the defeated the choice of his religion or death: this is assuredly nothing any man can excuse, at least if he was not born a Turk, or if superstition has not extinguished all natural light in him." -Voltaire

[unnamed 174]

TheReligionofPeace - Games Muslims Play

 

I think some of you would like this website.

[Jasoncw 11,839]

I don't these those fallacies apply here with my argument. The generalizations I am making are fine because it is reality that most Christians do not believe that violence is okay without provocation, so I am totally right in saying that no true Christian would condone the Inquisition. Now, the Crusades were justified because they were a reaction to Muslims taking over what was predominantly Christian areas. I'd definitely agree that the actions of the Inquisition were not okay and do not represent true Christian values, and pretty much all Christians would agree. Hence, me using the "no true Scotsman" fallacy was not a fallacy; it was reality!

 

I don't think the point was that christians today think the inquisition was good, I think the point was that christians of the day did not have the same negative view of it that christians today do. 

 

Many christians throughout long spans of history have done a lot of bad things. And christians today do bad things at a much lesser rate. And yet, both groups are still christians. In other words, religion and religious affiliation are not the bad thing, it's the bad things themselves. 

 

At the same time, that doesn't mean religion plays no role. People can have a lot of their identity and social lives built up around religion, and so religious social circles and activities, and religous identity, can form beliefs. But the fact that it is religion is itself arbitrary. Anything involving identity can impact beliefs (political identity, class identity, national identity, etc.).

 

In my personal experience I've only encountered extremist christians, and in fact the non christians I've known (even excluding the eastern religions) have been far more peaceful and tolerant. But that's because I've met those people in college, and the settings where I met them, people fall into certain demographics... high education, material well being, well traveled, etc. Comfortable lives growing up affluently in a modern industrialized society. 

 

Or for a great example, here in Detroit there's a suburb where 40% of the population are arabic (and thus likely muslim), and a big chunk of the rest are jewish, with another big chunk being christian. In fact the "House of Worship" are all built in a row next to each other and some of them share the same parking lots. The only time I've ever heard of anything happening is when occasionally external right wing christian groups will go there to cause a fuss.

 

What this all boils down to is that it's not specific religions that cause people to become terrorists, it's the personal circumstances of an individual, and those personal circumstances are largely results of their environments... if the region of the planet where you're from has experienced nothing but warfare and poverty for hundreds or thousands of years, it's going to produce people who do bad things. That's where the middle east is right now. At previous points in history it was the most technologically and culturally advanced and most prosperous place on the planet, with it was europe that was experiencing nothing but religous warfare and poverty.

[jmsepe 2,038]

That is why I prefer to be religion-less, anyone who wants to join the bandwagon?

 

My suggestion, gain an personal insight on Muslim culture and people first before stereotyping or creating comments which are merely based on insights of other people. I used to believe Christianity was the correct religion until I met my Muslim friends and became full aware that the Philippines even though Asia's one of the only two Christian nation (East Timor is also a Christian nation) remains to be impoverish in the end. If you want to get save and go to heaven, that is fine but people should not ought to force others to believe in these fantasies. I prefer being reincarnated though.

 

As of the moment, I am also trying to keep in touch with the other people of different cultures. In my opinion, religion is the biggest culture killer and that isn't good. So please respect each other's differences in opinion and try not ramming into their throats the different beliefs. What would you feel if someone criticize you for using fork instead of knife?  

 

Good day.

[unnamed 174]

That is why I prefer to be religion-less, anyone who wants to join the bandwagon?

 

My suggestion, gain an personal insight on Muslim culture and people first before stereotyping or creating comments which are merely based on insights of other people. I used to believe Christianity was the correct religion until I met my Muslim friends and became full aware that the Philippines even though Asia's one of the only two Christian nation (East Timor is also a Christian nation) remains to be impoverish in the end. If you want to get save and go to heaven, that is fine but people should not ought to force others to believe in these fantasies. I prefer being reincarnated though.

 

As of the moment, I am also trying to keep in touch with the other people of different cultures. In my opinion, religion is the biggest culture killer and that isn't good. So please respect each other's differences in opinion and try not ramming into their throats the different beliefs. What would you feel if someone criticize you for using fork instead of knife?

 

Good day.

Religion doesn't kill culture. If anything it creates more. 

[Meg 368]

It's common sense that pretty much all terrorists are Muslims . .

 

What about the guy who blew up the Oklahoma City building?    or any of the school shooters?

 

 

 

I don't even want to debate stuff on this forum if my views are just going to be censored. I know I've said "screw it, I'm done debating here" before, but having my views censored is crossing the line for me. Why bother giving us a place for us to express our opinions on world events if you can't even handle our opinions? Why should I bother wasting my time posting my opinions if there's a possibility that I'll be censored? You obviously don't care about free speech. I arrest my case here.

 

Rule number one:   Discuss the issues not each other.   

 

Your post openly attacked another member.  The moderators did their job by removing it.

 

This is a discussion, not an opportunity to flame other members.