simcity 4 vs 5

[Aardvark1313 5]

I found the other day something I didn't even remember having(long story, won't bore you with it). Turns out I have a shiny, opened, yet fairly certain unused copy of SimCity 4 and was considering putting it on my 2nd computer where I tend to put all my old(er) games. Just wondered if, despite all of the obvious imbalances and weak AI that is SimCity 5, if 4 is better overall? I heard a lot of people didn't like some things like manually laying water pipes and things like that but the overall balance of the game was better and had a much more intuitive and solid AI? Also can't find the original manual so far though it must be around, but I wondered if it worked the same as Simcity5 and if so, if there was a spreadsheet of the various population amounts based on size/density of buildings(assuming that part works the same as 5) to assist in city planning. Thanks

[MandelSoft 2,775]

The first thing people will tell you that SimCity "5" doesn't exist. Technically, the new SimCity (usually referenced as SimCity 2013) is a reboot, not a sequel. This means that besides having features SimCity 4 doesn't have, it also lacks features that SimCity 4 does have.

 

SimCity 4 has:

• 2.5D graphics. Not quite 3D, but an isometric projection. Graphics quality is quite decent.
• No online multi-player available, though it is still possible to make multi-player regions (but this is very labour-intensive)
• A region with contiguous (AKA side-by-side) city tiles, available in three sizes: small (1x1 km), medium (2x2 km) and large (4x4 km).
• Terraforming tools available, as well as a myriad of real-life maps available on the STEX.
• Traffic simulation based upon shortest path (stock game) or fastest path (NAM).
• Heuristic, statistical, aggregated simulation.
• Complete control over zone densities.
• Lots of chart data
• Quite some options for roads (from streets up to motorways) public transit (busses, railway, subway)
• A myriad of available mods and custom buildings, most notably the NAM (which greatly enhances the infrastructure options)

SimCity 2013 has:

• Full 3D graphics, though, graphics quality may be a bit poor at close zooms.
• Online multi-player mode available.
• A region with isolated 2x2 km city tiles (with fixed neighbour connections) with a max of 16 city tiles. Larger tiles are possible with mods, but this has limited support and it appears glitchy.
• No Terraforming tools available. Only stock maps can be used.
• Traffic simulation based upon shortest path.
• Agent-based simulation.
• Zone density is linked to road types.
• No chart data.
• No motorways within city limits, public transit limited to busses and railways.
• Modding scene has just started up for about a year.

 

So, take your pick.

 

Best,
Maarten

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Nice summary. 

 

Perhaps you should have mentioned that for SC4 there is 11 years + of custom content from the user community on at least three moderated repositories with thousands of lots, modifications, and sets. 

 

There is also a pretty generous set of after-market tools that Maxis Studio initiated but seems to have dropped together with more of the same from some of the very bright users.

 

While you can make your own regions and buildings, including lots, you cannot change the city sizes.  This simply means some imagination is needed when working with the game.  I have a region called New York City which is really broken up into wards as the "cities".  It becomes a matter of perspective.

[mayorlucario 21]

Simcity 4 has a larger variety of custom buildings for you to decorate your city, as aforementioned. 

 

Besides, does Simcity 2013 have this?

 

[MandelSoft 2,775]

While you can make your own regions and buildings, including lots, you cannot change the city sizes.  This simply means some imagination is needed when working with the game.  I have a region called New York City which is really broken up into wards as the "cities".  It becomes a matter of perspective.

 

You can also pretend that the borders are not there. This way, you can split up your large metropolis in boroughs with their own budget etc. This way you can make cities that are larger than just one city tile. Again, as you said you need some imagination when working with the game, in this case, "forget" about the borders, like so:

[AidanA28 17]

To me, all SC4 has going for itself is the fact that you have the entire region, which is being fixed in SC13 with Project Orion, though SC 4 is less buggy, and a better AI. Soon SC13 will have just as good modding as SC4, maybe even better. And, frankly, I can't stand 2.5D graphics.

[Compdude787 916]

And, frankly, I can't stand 2.5D graphics.

I'll take that over cartoonish 3D graphics, small, unconnected city tiles, and the inability to do any terraforming.

[Cyclone Boom 17,031]

I found the other day something I didn't even remember having(long story, won't bore you with it). Turns out I have a shiny, opened, yet fairly certain unused copy of SimCity 4 and was considering putting it on my 2nd computer where I tend to put all my old(er) games.

 

Is that the original SC4 or the Deluxe Edition? Bear in mind if you don't have Deluxe (original game + Rush Hour expansion), most custom content like the NAM will be incompatible. In which case, it'd be a wise move to re-purchase the game digitally from an online retailer. The manual can be downloaded as a PDF here.

 

Really, both games are created in different eras, so it's hard to compare them like for like. At the time SC4 was developed, the performance of computers obviously wasn't as capable. As technology has improved, games have primarily gone down the 3D route, which has become the base standard for most graphics engines. Personally, I quite like SC4's isometric graphics, as they balance detail with performance. In terms of freedom and customisation, this allows a lot more flexibility. Having the simulation calculated statistically also uses less resources -- a key reason why SC13's tiles are smaller in size.

[pieuponieu 70]

 

And, frankly, I can't stand 2.5D graphics.

I'll take that over cartoonish 3D graphics, small, unconnected city tiles, and the inability to do any terraforming.

 

 

 

Hallelujah!

 

I had some SC4 boredom this week, so I signed into SC 2013 for the first time in over a year and I just cannot get over how bad it is.  The city size is way too small, prohibitively small, infuriating.  The graphics are worse than SC4 on my new laptop, even with the 3D aspect.  And though there are a few features of gameplay that I find positive (e.g., the ability to add onto existing buildings like schools to increase volume), these small delights do not remotely compare to the complete control we have with SC4.

 

@Aardvark1313, the only thing I can say is consider installing SC4 on your first PC instead of your second, assuming the first has better graphics and speed.  Despite its age, SC4 does run better on newer, faster hardware... in my humble opinion.

[jmsepe 2,039]

Oh nope! Not to add to the debate but trust me, there are more modding options, more city-building options and more technical support for Simcity 4. #enoughsaid 

[Xenocity 343]

This is pretty much how the two games boil down:

 

• Simcity 2013 Plus > Simcity 4 Deluxe
• Simcity 4 Deluxe + Modding >  Simcity 2013 Plus + Modding (at the moment)
• Glassbox simulation > Statistical simulation of Simcity 4 (Simcity 4 was originally planned to have a new 3D engine)
• Simcity 2013 has less major bugs than Simcity 4 Deluxe (The game doesn't crash)
• Simcity 2013 data view > Simcity 4 data view
• Simcity 4 budget controls > Simcity 2013
• Cities of Tomorrow > Rush Hour (I do miss the toll booths though)
• Simcity 4 has ordinances
• Simcity 4 has highways
• Simcity 2013 has more mass transit options
• Simcity 2013 has modules addons for education, mass transit, and government buildings
• Simcity 2013 region interactions > Simcity 4 region interactions
• Simcity 2013 doesn't require me to lay water pipes and powerlines
• Simcity 2013 traffic simulation = Simcity 4 Deluxe traffic simulation (unless you have NAM installed or Maxis patches 2013)
• Simcity 2013 has arcologies

To be fair to Simcity 4 it was originally developed on a new 3D simulation engine, but due to technical difficulties and the needed processing power required, Maxis ported the whole game back to the old stats engine.

Simcity 4 had the longest (5 years) and most troubled development of all the Simcitys to date.

Simcity 4 also had a troubled launch, due to many users having major issues running the game and many had to upgrade their PCs, which Maxis was given a massive ear full.

 

To be fair to Simcity 2013, Maxis purposeldy scaled down the game, the engine, and city size to meet the processing power of the consumers.

Maxis made sure that fans and most consumers could run the game with minimal issues, as not to repeat the Simcity 4 launch.

 

With all this said, neither game is better than the other.

They are just two very different games.

 

Simcity 4 is good for those who want to build massive cities and suburbs with minimal region interaction, with less realistic simulation.

 

Simcity 2013 is good for those who want to build cities with mostly realistic simulation, in a near fully integrated region (with others if they choose so).

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Not very objective, I'm afraid.

 

SimCity 2013 is a reboot of the whole franchise and cannot be compared to the fourth generation of the old SimCity in any way.  Not only that but recently most of the development team for SC 2013 went over the side at Maxis.  The SC4 developers hung on for far longer.

 

Usually when developers quit, the reason is either boredom (SC4) or fear (SC2013).  The whole glassbox engine with the agent idea is a bust for this kind of program, and jamming an elephant into a breadbox doesn't look good on anyone's resume.

 

Will Wright has said publicly that SC4 was the end of the line for SimCity.  He has said that they programmed themselves into a box and have nowhere to take the franchise any further.  This is supported by the fact that the current Maxis Studio group did a franchise restart.

 

The two programs are incomparable.  They are of different eras of thought and design.

[Sabretooth78 808]

Based on what I've read, 2013 is better for the more casual gamer.  SC4 is for someone who wants to be immersed into the whole lifecycle of building a region, including the inherent minutiae that might tend to push people away.

 

Personally, I haven't for a second had a desire to play the new game and that's considering I wasn't even following it at the time of launch and knew nothing of the initial failings until I'd gotten back into the SC4 game several months afterward.  Shortly after that, my wife said she had thought of getting it for my birthday but wasn't sure what I'd think.  I'm glad I received whatever else I got instead lol.  I don't want it, and I don't have the time for it anyway.

 

It's not all SC4 though.  Say what you want but I've been known to pass away an evening here and there running the Mac version of SC2k in the Basilisk emulator (works quite well!) and would run SC3k more often if it ran [better] in Wine.  Running is about all it does (near impossible to do anything more than browse).  I could run it in Parallels but I haven't had a great enough itch to do so.  It's nice to have a throwback every once in a while.

[London-b 90]

SC4 is an actual city builder game that does what it says on the tin. SC2013 is a farmvile-esque facbook game that took too many of those things Leo takes in the Wolf of Wall Street. It is a far far better facebook game than SC4 and the developers should be proud of that. 

[MushyMushy 3,618]

I own both games (SC4 Deluxe & SC2013) and can confidently say that SC4 is superior (in my opinion).

 

• While SC4 is in 2.5D, it's graphics can be very pretty and realistic-looking (especially custom content rendered in HD (looking at you, reddon)).
• The simulation in SC4 may be dated and less realistic in comparison to SC2013, but I prefer it pretty strongly over SC2013's... Why? Well, I don't have to nitpick about stuff as much. As cool as it is to see individual units of sewage going through the invisible (lol) pipes, it can get kind of annoying to have to watch all of that. And don't even get me started on water and power. Let's say I build a big nuclear power plant - those need tons of water - and it's really far from the pumping station. In SC2013, all the dinky little houses that are between the pump and the reactor are gonna drain all the water before it even gets there. Priorities, anyone? In SC4 everything gets water instantly as long as you have the capacity - less realistic, but not as big of a pain in the... butt.
• City tiles and regions. Well uh, if a bunch of 2km x 2km villages spread apart with nothing in-between is normal SC2013 would take the cake. Owait, that's not how it works.... At least in SC4 you can make a region of 4km x 4km tiles that are right next to each other so you can ignore the boundaries and build one cohesive city (or cities with some epic RHW in-between (thx RHW team)).
• Airports. Well... SC4 Maxis airports suck but I'd still take them over those things in SC2013. Since when do you put 4 runways directly on top of each other? Have the devs ever been to an airport? And then in SC4, you can just go download a buncha airport sets and build one epic airport that's realistic in size and has correct markings and everything. Count me in.
• Seaports? Just go download PEGs set and some other ship sets and you're all done. SC4 +1.
• Transportation? Ok. I'll say it. Vehicle AI in SC4 is stupid. So why is SC4 still better? SC2013's vehicle/agent AI is also stupid. Why does this matter? SC2013 is practically a decade newer.
• Mod-ability? SC4 takes the cake. I'm not going to say it's easy (I know those master BAT users work crazy hard to bring us this awesome stuff), but I think it's harder to mod SC2013 (based on the fact that there's like 5-10 custom buildings for the game)...
• Ok. The whole business thing that you do in SC2013... mining coal and junk and stuff. Look. I know gov't people IRL are all cozy with the corporations, but why do the mayors need to be? Since when does a city own a coal mine? No. Just no.

 

I can't bash SC2013 on everything, but I will say it really wasn't ready to be released when it was. It wasn't finished. I'm sure glad I got it as a present because I'd sure be knocking on EA's door if I had paid for it myself.

[Xenocity 343]

SC4 is an actual city builder game that does what it says on the tin. SC2013 is a farmvile-esque facbook game that took too many of those things Leo takes in the Wolf of Wall Street. It is a far far better facebook game than SC4 and the developers should be proud of that. 

This isn't true at all.

 

Simcty 4 articles, reviews and  ads leading up to  launch was about how it was the most realistic city simulator ever and the most advanced.

Maxis pushed simulation aspect and never called the game a city builder.

The motto for the game was "The most realistic city simulation ever!" it was in the ads and it was the first line on the back of the box.

The front of the box had the box art, Simcity 4, and Maxis and EA logos.

 

The road to Simcity 4 and Simcity 2013 is listed below:

 

Will Wright and the rest Maxis decided to make Simcity 3000 the first full 3D city simulator and it was supposed to be realistic simulation.

They unveiled the game at E3 1997 to much disappointment. 

They worked on the game even through impending bankruptcy (which forced them to go to EA).

When EA took over, Maxis was still struggling getting the engine to run.

EA forced Maxis to stop development and modify the Simcity 2000 engine to run the game.

Simcity 3000 we received was heavily scaled back due to PC processing power at the time.

 

Maxis kept developing the 3D engine and hoped to turn Simcity 4 into that game with the advancement in processing power.

Development became highly expensive and was taking too long, so EA slapped a deadline on Maxis.

Maxis was forced yet again to modify the engine running Simcity 3000 for Simcity 4 late in development.

Maxis was also forced to scale back Simcity 4 due to the PC gamer market not having enough processing power to run the final product.

Simcity 4 is a highly borked simulator without mods because of the development hell it went through.

 

Maxis finally was able to realize it's dream in 2011 to produce the full 3D city simulator engine they had intended to do in 1996.

Simcit 2013's sequel will most likely be the full actualization of what Simcity 3000 was originally supposed to be.

 

 

With that said Simulators have always been labeled kiddy and casual games by real gamers.

Market data and research doesn't lie

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

The best thing about the SimCity franchise is its lack of thud and blunder.

[Cyclone Boom 17,031]

The motto for the game was "The most realistic city simulation ever!" it was in the ads and it was the first line on the back of the box.

The front of the box had the box art, Simcity 4, and Maxis and EA logos.

 

That's interesting, you must be looking at a different game there. I still have the 3 boxed versions of SC4 which say on the back:

 

SimCity 4: "Build and run your own city"

Rush Hour: "Your city is on the move"

Deluxe: "The biggest SimCity ever!"

[Compdude787 916]

With that said Simulators have always been labeled kiddy and casual games by real gamers.

Market data and research doesn't lie

Right, and many of us don't play other hardcore games like racing games, MMOs, or FPSes. For me personally, SC4 is now the one game I don't suck at, and the one game I'm truly interested in.

[Xenocity 343]

 

The motto for the game was "The most realistic city simulation ever!" it was in the ads and it was the first line on the back of the box.

The front of the box had the box art, Simcity 4, and Maxis and EA logos.

 

That's interesting, you must be looking at a different game there. I still have the 3 boxed versions of SC4 which say on the back:

 

SimCity 4: "Build and run your own city"

Rush Hour: "Your city is on the move"

Deluxe: "The biggest SimCity ever!"

 

Companies regularly update there box art and each region has different box art too.

There was at least 4 different versions of Simcity 4 box art before they went to Deluxe

Simcity 4 Deluxe had a few different box arts as well. 

[Sabretooth78 808]

 

With that said Simulators have always been labeled kiddy and casual games by real gamers.

Market data and research doesn't lie

Right, and many of us don't play other hardcore games like racing games, MMOs, or FPSes. For me personally, SC4 is now the one game I don't suck at, and the one game I'm truly interested in.

 

 

For me, it's SC4, Civ IV, and the 3 Rollercoaster Tycoon offerings (RCT I is probably still my favorite despite the improvements of the later issues).  I don't play anything else, and haven't for at least 10 years.  Nothing else has been able to hold my attention for more than a few days, aside from maybe MS Flight Simulator, way back in the SC2k-3k days.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

SimCity 4 Deluxe is the only major game I played for years.  My list now includes Banished.  Otherwise I stick to simple logic games such as the LOTR turn game Angband (graphics are horrible on Windows), Iagno (reversi), GNU Mines (Minesweeper), and other GNU games supplied free with the Linux distribution.

 

I had high hopes for SC2013 when it was first hyped, but as things became clearer it turned out to be a horrible disappointment.  Maxis Studio ain't what it used to be, clearly.  They bit off more than they could chew, even with a reboot and their modern version of Micropolis.  Will Wright was correct when he said that SC4 was the end of the line for this simulation.  The cash cow is still being milked.

[Jorge_carrillo 140]

I think that after the Large Customized Content that Simcity 4 has cumulated,  thanks to the colaboration of  hundreds of BAT and MOD creators, there is  NO WAY, NO WAY,  that any new city builder game may surpass it in variety of content. I have not bought SC2013  but when I bought Cities XL I really liked the 3D habilities of the game, but never got used to it.

[MushyMushy 3,618]

With that said Simulators have always been labeled kiddy and casual games by real gamers.

 

If a "real gamer" is someone who plays FPSs, RPGs and such, then I'm a "real gamer."

As a "real gamer," I can say simulators are very much real games and are much less casual than any other genre I know of. Take SC4 for example, where us CJers nitpick over tiny details on 4km x 4km maps, and compare it to GTAV, where I sit down in a tractor trailer and rofl when I drive off a cliff (I'm being serious, I do that). As a "real gamer," I can also say that the communities for simulators are generally much more mature and creative than your average FPS community.

 

Now then, I'll go ahead and say as a "real gamer" that there's no such thing as a "real gamer." Every game is real, whether it's mainstream or played by a small community, whether it came out yesterday or was made 20 years ago, or if it's rated M or rated E. They're all "real games." We're all "real gamers" because we all play games.

 

This is all just my opinion though.

[Xenocity 343]

 

With that said Simulators have always been labeled kiddy and casual games by real gamers.

 

If a "real gamer" is someone who plays FPSs, RPGs and such, then I'm a "real gamer."

As a "real gamer," I can say simulators are very much real games and are much less casual than any other genre I know of. Take SC4 for example, where us CJers nitpick over tiny details on 4km x 4km maps, and compare it to GTAV, where I sit down in a tractor trailer and rofl when I drive off a cliff (I'm being serious, I do that). As a "real gamer," I can also say that the communities for simulators are generally much more mature and creative than your average FPS community.

 

Now then, I'll go ahead and say as a "real gamer" that there's no such thing as a "real gamer." Every game is real, whether it's mainstream or played by a small community, whether it came out yesterday or was made 20 years ago, or if it's rated M or rated E. They're all "real games." We're all "real gamers" because we all play games.

 

This is all just my opinion though.

 

I agree with you.

The market research and Industry says otherwise.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

The industry is going by sales figures only, IMHO.  There are niche markets such as the game/simulation area, where measurements fail because they don't consider the depth of the fan base.  The longevity of SC4 Deluxe should say something to the marketeers, but it doesn't seem to mean anything to the guys chasing next week's buck down the street.

[iLoveMusic 66]

SimCity 2013 looked promising to me, and after all the reviews and videos I've watched, I'd be able to put up with it except for one thing - the city sizes are TINY! You barely have room to build a decent town in there....there are a lot of things that I saw that I liked, and a few things I didn't, but the automatic turn-off for me was the ridiculously small city sizes. So I'm sticking with SimCity 4 (Deluxe) for now, especially after rediscovering this game recently (I've owned SimCity 4 Deluxe on CD for years but almost never played it) and even more after discovering this website and the many mods that make the game infinitely fun. The only other PC game(s) I ever got this much into were Rollercoaster Tycoon 1 and 2.

 

In fact, what led me to this website in the first place was the trouble I was having with my city, particularly nightmarish commute time troubles among other annoyances.

[Person0123453 1]

To me, all SC4 has going for itself is the fact that you have the entire region, which is being fixed in SC13 with Project Orion, though SC 4 is less buggy, and a better AI. Soon SC13 will have just as good modding as SC4, maybe even better. And, frankly, I can't stand 2.5D graphics.

 

Ha.

 

 

The whole glassbox engine with the agent idea is a bust for this kind of program, and jamming an elephant into a breadbox doesn't look good on anyone's resume.

 

Meh, from what I understand Cities: Skylines will be using a system based on persistent Cims (I hesitate to compare it to SC2013's system which weren't persistent individuals at all) and that will have up to a million people in a city at a time by default (although city size options are slated to be unlockable if your PC can handle it). I don't think it's necessarily unworkable but maxis obviously didn't have enough time to do it with SimCity. I think the real problem with this kind of simulation is actually traffic management. It's hard to program AI to drive in a realistic way and as a result most games that have persistent agents like this also have horrendous traffic problems.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

The problem that Maxis Studio didn't solve in SC2013 is making the whole thing work as well, traffic wise, as SC4.  The 3D GUI takes a lot of oomph off the CPU no matter how you make use of the GPU.  It probably is assigned a processor all of its own, with necessary data rendezvous.  Hopefully the newer entry in the field will have said a few later words on this.  I am afraid that Ocean Quigley and the flower children were just not up to the task.

 

To do something like SC4 in 3D would need at least the fast machines we have today and the full multitasking multicore set up.  DirectX has to be abandoned for OpenGL which most GPUs will process directly, the driver just being a queueing pass-through.  A hot GPU will normally be faster than the regular logic processor.

 

Looking into the futurescape, I think the 128-bit machines with very large virtual address space are going to be needed to really do any kind of job for intensive 3D city simulations.  Think of having an entire SC4 region present in the VM so that transitions between cities or even parts thereof would only be a matter of paging.  I am not sure that current gaming programmers take the kind of advantages of VM as they could if MS would stop using a file for swap space and use a whole partition.  Linux does, and my swap space is 20GB.  There seems to be very little limit as you can have multiple swap partitions.  The whole thing comes down to address bandwidth.