UK Politics

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I think it is time for a collective on events in the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, etc.

 

Muslim minister is concerned for Christians in the Middle East.

 

Whether this is a voice of sanity in the scrum or what is a good question.

 

And this from a rather famous horsewoman from a horsey clan.

 

And would your royal highness like her steak sagnant, à point, où cuit?

[AkemiAzula 280]

Nowt wrong with eating horsemeat i should think. They used to only a while ago as one of my ancestors sold horsemeat in the nineteenth century

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

It is legal in a lot of countries to eat horses.  It was common in the 17th to 19th centuries.  There is a pretty substantial myth of eating horses aboard ship when sailing ships were becalmed in the 'horse latitudes' because there was not enough water to keep them alive.  Something to do with the Spanish conquistadors who took their horses with them on their voyages.

[Fatherted 129]

There was something on BBC news about Muslims in England complaining about the scrounging-off-society mentality of the gypsies living in their area, and how it was dangerous for their children. One minority against another.

I entirely agree on their stance, often they want to take the good in society but not the bad. Up where my grandparents live, there are gypsies that own a small horse, barely more than a foal, and use it to carry their colossal selves along roads. They whip it if it gets confused, breaking plenty of laws in the process, but then they come crying to us when something goes wrong.

Pay your tax or get out.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Horse steak is supposed to taste a lot better than cow steak. Its supposed to be more tender or something. 

 

And yes, there have been complaints about gypsies in the UK, though those complaints were not filled specifically by Muslims. But that is really no surprise because everyone is always complaining about gypsies, wherever they go. The old medieval stereotype of gypsies being nothing more than a bunch of thieves is still going strong in the 21st century. 

[AkemiAzula 280]

I've never met any myself. I cycled through an encampment a the entrance to a country lane and saw a boy who looked at me as I cycled past. 

 

Horses I have similarly not had much to do with, I've never ridden one, and while you see them everywhere in the countryside, I am indifferent to them as a particular animal.

 

In slightly related news the I saw my first badger in the wild today. It was roadkill.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The Roma people have been wandering around the world for a very long time.  Most of them claim to have been expelled from their "land" centuries ago in yet another diaspora.  Unfortunately, they seem to believe that the world owes them a living.  If so, I'd suggest we find them a nice arctic island to settle on.

[dazza262 133]

Horse steak is supposed to taste a lot better than cow steak. Its supposed to be more tender or something. 

 

And yes, there have been complaints about gypsies in the UK, though those complaints were not filled specifically by Muslims. But that is really no surprise because everyone is always complaining about gypsies, wherever they go. The old medieval stereotype of gypsies being nothing more than a bunch of thieves is still going strong in the 21st century. 

 

I'm sorry but it's not just an old medieval stereotype still going strong, it's very much fact where gypsies are concerned.

 

If you lived in the vicinity of a large gypsy camp, as I do, you may well have very different feelings on them.

 

I'm very much live and let live, unfortunately most gypsies are not!

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

By their fruits, ye shall know them.

[LexusInfernus 908]

I'm sorry but it's not just an old medieval stereotype still going strong, it's very much fact where gypsies are concerned.

 

If you lived in the vicinity of a large gypsy camp, as I do, you may well have very different feelings on them.

 

I'm very much live and let live, unfortunately most gypsies are not!

 

I read the Guardian, the police said so far its mostly just anti social behavior, real crime hasn't noticeably increased. 

 

It is a medieval stereotype and it has resulted in a strong confirmation bias with people. Meaning they are actively looking for examples of behavior that fit the stereotype while unconsciously ignoring all examples that show otherwise. Are there bad gypsies that do not follow the rules? Of course. One might even say that they commit more crimes on average, but hardly more than a whole range of other immigrant groups. And the picture the media tends to paint of Gypsies IS downright a medieval stereotype. 

[dazza262 133]

 

I'm sorry but it's not just an old medieval stereotype still going strong, it's very much fact where gypsies are concerned.

 

If you lived in the vicinity of a large gypsy camp, as I do, you may well have very different feelings on them.

 

I'm very much live and let live, unfortunately most gypsies are not!

 

I read the Guardian, the police said so far its mostly just anti social behavior, real crime hasn't noticeably increased. 

 

It is a medieval stereotype and it has resulted in a strong confirmation bias with people. Meaning they are actively looking for examples of behavior that fit the stereotype while unconsciously ignoring all examples that show otherwise. Are there bad gypsies that do not follow the rules? Of course. One might even say that they commit more crimes on average, but hardly more than a whole range of other immigrant groups. And the picture the media tends to paint of Gypsies IS downright a medieval stereotype. 

 

 

I don't really think that we can class gypsies as an immigrant group unless we are are classing everyone in the UK as immigrants, who can say that that their bloodline is completely indigenous to these shores? But that's another matter.

 

It may be that it's mostly just anti-social behaviour, but like I said, when you're living with that on your doorstep it's not pleasant.

 

If you had a family living on your street that just threw their rubbish outside your house, that stole items from your garden, that had dogs and horses tied up on the grass verge, that parked their un-taxed vehicles across your driveway, that road horses and carts along the main road causing traffic chaos, whose children bullied other local kids with no fear of reprisal, would you be happy living with that? I suggest not.

 

This is just some of the anti-social behaviour the people of my town have to put up with. Believe me, I don't go looking for examples to fit stereotypes of gypsies, I steer as far clear as I can from them. And I don't look to the media to form an opinion of anyone for me, I'm perfectly capable of doing that for myself.

 

Maybe if gypsies integrated into society more, the way that most other ethnic groups seem capable of doing, the media and public at large may have a better opinion of them. 

[LexusInfernus 908]

I don't really think that we can class gypsies as an immigrant group unless we are are classing everyone in the UK as immigrants, who can say that that their bloodline is completely indigenous to these shores? But that's another matter.

 

It may be that it's mostly just anti-social behaviour, but like I said, when you're living with that on your doorstep it's not pleasant.

 

If you had a family living on your street that just threw their rubbish outside your house, that stole items from your garden, that had dogs and horses tied up on the grass verge, that parked their un-taxed vehicles across your driveway, that road horses and carts along the main road causing traffic chaos, whose children bullied other local kids with no fear of reprisal, would you be happy living with that? I suggest not.

 

This is just some of the anti-social behaviour the people of my town have to put up with. Believe me, I don't go looking for examples to fit stereotypes of gypsies, I steer as far clear as I can from them. And I don't look to the media to form an opinion of anyone for me, I'm perfectly capable of doing that for myself.

 

Maybe if gypsies integrated into society more, the way that most other ethnic groups seem capable of doing, the media and public at large may have a better opinion of them. 

 

The gypsies that are currently in the news are from Slovakia or something, and they moved to the UK pretty recently. So yeah, they are immigrants. 

 

And it may not be pleasant, they are not criminals. Unpleasant behavior is not a crime. 

 

Finally, everyone has biases, no exceptions. Best one can do is be aware of those biases. And yes, you are biased against gypsies, as you define them solely around the negative experiences you had or the examples heard of. I mean come on, you honestly think that all gypsies behave like you just described? That they all drive around in untaxed cars and that they all steal stuff from your yard? You've probably seen gypsies behave like they should numerous times. And in those cases you probably didn't even notice they were gypsies. But don't worry, thats just how brains work. 

[dazza262 133]

Most gypsies in this country have been in the UK for many, many generations, and would not be classed as immigrants.

 

Yes I am biased against them because I know the reality of it, not some romantic notion of what gypsies are.  Do you really think that so many people have a negative view of them just because of how the media portray them?

 

Of course not every single one of them behaves in this manner, but I'm explaining what happens on a regular basis when you have a gypsy site in the vicinity.

 

Unpleasant behaviour may not be a crime (although in many cases it is), but you didn't answer how you would feel if it  was happening in your neighbourhood.

[Fatherted 129]

I can testify to this. They, generally, contribute little to society but are happy to scrounge off it and destroy it.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Have the Roma become the Jews of the 21st century?  Will 'society' coerce them into 'civilized' behaviour?

[LexusInfernus 908]

 Do you really think that so many people have a negative view of them just because of how the media portray them?

 

First, you mixed up cause and effect. The media holds a negative view of gypsies because society holds a negative view of gypsies. Second, this contains a major logical fallacy. 'How can so many people be wrong?' is an argumentum ad populum. But just because a lot of people think something doesn't mean they are right. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

 

And in this particular case the majority of people are in fact flat out wrong. Again, the presence of gypsies does not result in higher crime rates and as a community, they do not misbehave any more than other communities.  

http://toglobalist.org/2013/02/were-not-racist-but-those-gypsies/

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/nov/14/raceintheuk.comment

http://www.stlegerhomes.co.uk/PDF/Gypsy%20&%20Traveller%20Fact%20Sheet%20May07.pdf

 

Now I'm sure you have met some bad apples, but you should not make the mistake and use your limited experience with gypsies and generalize them to cover the entire gypsy community. Because your generalizations would be wrong and also very racist. 

[Cobraroll 138]

I might be a few days late to the party, but anyway, I'll chime in with this:

 

The problem with horse meat isn't the fact that it is meat from a horse. Horse meat in itself is perfectly edible, as history has countless examples of. The problem lies in whatever those horses were fed before they died. The main reason why horse meat is considered bad for you, is all the medicines horses have been given to stay somewhat healthy. Race horses in particular are so full of chemicals that you really don't want any of it to end up in your mouth.

 

The horse meat scandal a few years ago became a scandal because those horses clearly weren't brought up with food production in mind. Mostly, it was dead horses that were slaughtered and sold as meat, rather than properly disposed of (since the logistics of actually getting rid of a dead horse properly is somewhat troublesome and expensive).

[LexusInfernus 908]

Aside from that, its just plain lying to the consumers when you label and sell your product as cow meat when its actually horse. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

In some places in the world horses are farmed much like cattle for meat production. Where the problem arises is where this is not so.  In my culture, race horses that have passed on are usually buried, even after years at stud.  There are some burial monuments to famous racers:  Northern Dancer strikes me as a classical example, buried at Winfields Farm.

[Dannibee 138]

Anyone up for a discussion towards the proposed internet filters against adult material by Cameron or is this topic a bit inappropriate for ST?

[LexusInfernus 908]

Do enlighten the rest of us what the proposed filter is exactly, what does it filter and why? 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

It was all over the news earlier.  Here is one article.

 

I suspect it won't do much since most of this garbage is on "hidden" networks.

[Dannibee 138]

Yeah this won't help limiting that kind of imagery anyway, seeing as most of it happens on closed networks and the darknet or whatever.

 

I was talking more about the opt-out default internet filters that were proposed a few months back, to apparently stop kids from finding porn and such. 

First of all why should the Government decide on what adults legally look at on the internet?

Secondly all of these filters already exist, it's just the case that parents have to ask their ISP to set it up themselves. Why can't we just stick with this as opposed to blanket blocking everything inappropriate down to whatever the Government determines what is wrong and doesn't want the public to see?

 

I can't help but think that this is all just laying down the keystones for widespread internet censorship but first targeted towards the kind of material nobody wants to stand up for, which is perfectly legal pornography might I add.

This is the problem when a populist politician such as Cameron can piggyback off the fears of the vocal minority and still remain neutral to the general public, as many people in the UK are far too apathetic.  

[AkemiAzula 280]

I never approved of pornography but then again I never approved of sex, families, humanity or this universe.

 

I think with porn it is like drugs. It is an industry, and as such it makes vulnerable people into victims. Like the drug industry it is viral and systemic, it isn't just a group of consenting adults saying 'hey, you know what'd be cool- let's dress up as schoolgirls and film our sexy antics'. It's an industry, and as such it adds to the problems of society.

 

I think however that this act will achieve little, because not only will pedophiles just share images with one another offline or in the 'dark side' of the net, but the actual crimes which they commit are not virtual.

 

Back to horse meat I think what Cobraroll said was a good argument.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Scottish Independence Day March 24, 2016.

 

Generally speaking, naming the date before the referendum is getting the cart before the horse.  Have Scots really given this some thought or is it just emotional left overs from Culloden, and the Act of Union?

 

Do they really want to go back to a feudal system with the Lairds running the show like magnates?  This, I highly doubt.

[AkemiAzula 280]

I bet someone ten quid the northmen would secede from the union

[LexusInfernus 908]

Scottish Independence Day March 24, 2016.

 

Generally speaking, naming the date before the referendum is getting the cart before the horse.  Have Scots really given this some thought or is it just emotional left overs from Culloden, and the Act of Union?

 

Do they really want to go back to a feudal system with the Lairds running the show like magnates?  This, I highly doubt.

Why would seceding mean going back to some Feudal system?  

[AkemiAzula 280]

Well putting aside my tenner...

 

I think as regards the northmen going it alone from us I have mixed thoughts.

 

1. The EU. Currency?

 

2. Wales, Cornwall, Northern Ireland?

 

3. While, living as I do on the south coast of England, I would not be at all influenced by this act or lack thereof, I would have to say that a breakup of the UK further beyond that would end in me being a citizen of England, and the EU (if it still exists). Now this makes sense. What about the commonwealth?

 

To be perfectly honest I don't care whether they break off from us. But it strikes me that it is a purely ideological action? Is there any actual practical point in it? And if not, surely they don't need such a drastic move?

 

Edit: I know, there's a thread for this. Forgot. I'm busy working on Virtucity somewhat forgetful of late...

[Fatherted 129]

I think it's a ridiculous notion. The UK has been the UK for...like...forever.

What benefits come from independence? The economy will COLLAPSE. The pound is a UK currency. You guys get the Euro. Fun.

[LexusInfernus 908]

I think it's a ridiculous notion. The UK has been the UK for...like...forever.

What benefits come from independence? The economy will COLLAPSE. The pound is a UK currency. You guys get the Euro. Fun.

If by forever you mean 'a few centuries' then yes. And if by 'United Kingdom' you mean 'Scotland already having its separate parliament' then also yes. And Northern Ireland also has been trying to get away from London for decades now. They even set off a few big bombs all around the country to prove how much they did not like being part of the UK. 

 

What benefits? Well, practically Scotland already is quite independent. Becoming truly independent means they are no longer bound by any of the UK laws they dislike. So legally, it means they can start shopping when it comes to laws. It also means that economically they can begin to move away from the English model and begin working towards their own model, which in the long run can benefit their local economy much more. And no, their economy will not directly collapse depending on how the split goes. If its amicably then its unlikely that the whole thing collapses. If it ends with a big row then it might be less beneficial to their economy. But a total collapse is unlikely. 

 

They also do not get the Euro automatically. They first need to become part of the EU, sign all kinds of European treaties before they can even begin discussing adopting the Euro. Again, on the long run this might benefit them as they can now choose their own approach towards the EU and are no longer stuck to what the idiots in London decide. Though it remains to be seen how beneficial this is for them as they are unlikely to get the same kind of opt outs as they had before. They would lose access to the single market, though that might only be a short term problem as its likely they would quickly begin negotiations towards at least some kind of free trade agreement, given that such a thing would be in the interest of both the EU and Scotland.