New here ... silly question about my hometown map.

[B-Blabb 0]

Hi.  I'd like to make a map of my hometown.  I am so in the dark about this that I can't make sense of anything.  I figure there should be a way to take Google Earth images and make them maps. 

 

I have already generated a topo map using the tutorial I found here.  But it doesnt have the existing city roads, etc.

 

I don't even know where to begin to ask, so I'm asking here.  Please help a total and clueless newb.  How can I get the city into SimCity4 without having to do it "by hand"?

 

Thanks!

-Johntodd

 

[SimCoug 5,972]

Welcome to Simtropolis!

 

How can I get the city into SimCity4 without having to do it "by hand"?

 

Thanks!

-Johntodd

 

Well, if you've already created the map, the only way to add streets/buildings/etc would be "by hand"... That is, you would need to open each city tile and lay down the streets, zones, etc.  But that's the fun part

[B-Blabb 0]

I'm willing to start all over.  I just dont want to do it by hand 'cause Im not that good.

[Lost Realist 762]

I'm not all that sure I understand what you mean. You already have a map file for SimCity and imported it into the game, rendered it and now you have the bare landscape? Because then you've done everything right, but of course you have to build the cities by hand, that's the one thing that SimCity is about! If it were just about rendering a map with cities on it, you could use a pen and paper...

[B-Blabb 0]

My interests are "funny", I think.  I'm interested in improving my hometown because of it's economic slump.  I have no degree in City Planning, but, darn it, I'm going to try.  So I want the city already laid out so I can make changes to it.  Simcity isn't just a game, its also a simulation.

 

I know this is a hokey idea, but I really want to try some of my ideas in a simulator and then, with more research, present them to my connections here in local politics.

 

But, yes, I do have the rendered bare topo landscape.  I geuss I got that part right.  But I'll throw it all out if I need to to get the layout.

 

Thanks!

-Johntodd

[Lost Realist 762]

There is absolutely no way for you to get the city layed out with roads, buildings and all the whatnot without going into the game and building it. The game was not designed to work any other way.

[B-Blabb 0]

Forgive me for asking, since I am a newb.  But, how can it not be possible?  When I go go Google Earth, I can see where the software has traced out the roads for me.  GEarth simply overlays "lines" on top of the sat images.  IOW, Google Earth already "knows" where the roads are.  That information already exists and therefore the mapping is already done. 

 

It would seem that it's just a matter of converting from GEarth format to Simcity format.  If we can make topo maps from real-world data, then we can make city maps from real word data, at least as far as the roads are concerned. 

 

But, alas,  I lack the software skills to make such a program.  Perhaps someone here can engineer such a feat for us?  There seems to be a lot of talent on this board.

 

Thanks!

-Johntodd

[Lost Realist 762]

You're comparing two completely different systems. I'm not an authority on the technicalities here, but I can assure you it's impossible. You cannot tell the game where to draw roads and then it'll do it for you in rendering. It's not a mapping software, it's a game about building a city, you simply can't compare it to the way GEarth works.

[Indiana Joe 1,750]

You can automatically make maps because the game comes with a "map render" tool.  There's no "road render" tool.  They must be placed by hand (or automatically with zones); it's a fundamental part of the game's code.

 

It is especially impossible because SimCity 4 is based on a grid, which roads in real life are not.  You can only come so close, even in a hand-made recreation.

 

As Lost Realist is trying to explain, GE and SC4 are apples and oranges.

[B-Blabb 0]

I see what you are saying.  But I respectfully submit that I am unconvinced.  Here's why:

 

Today, I:

 

1. Used SC Terraformer to create a topo map.

2.  I saved it as a SimCity 4-compatible file.

3.  I started SimCity, and it read the file no problems.

 

This tells me that a software application can create files for SC4 to use. 

 

4.  I go into SC4 and play - adding roads, buildings, etc.

5. I save the file (obviously in a SC4-compatible file).

6. I play SimCity4 again the next day, my additions are still there.

 

Conclusion:  If an external piece of software can make a topo map that SC4 can use, then another external app. can put roads on it that SC4 can use.  It's all about creating an SC4 compatible file.  This is nothing more can conversion from GEarth to SC4.  It's like converting from .bmp to .jpg., or from Excel to OpenOffice Calc.

 

It probably is a technical challenge to write such a thing.  I'd love to see someone do this.  It would open up a whole new frontier for SC4 players.  We could grab the info from GEarth and then play any city in SC4.

 

The roads and buildings are, in fact, written to a file(s) on the hard drive.  Any application that "speaks the language" of SC4 could modify that file as much as we want.

 

Sigh...and I still don't have the skills to do it.  Well, maybe someday.  In the meantime, think about it.  Pass the word.  Some enterprising young programmer could crack this one in short order.

 

Thanks!

-Johntodd

 

 

 

[Indiana Joe 1,750]

Roads and structures are stored within saved cities.  You would require some sort of saved-game editor, which is just out of the question to create.

 

After almost 11 years of modding this game, nearly everything has been attempted.  We have a pretty good idea of what we can and cannot (feasibly) do.

[APSMS 1,892]

There is also the argument that the game, fundamentally, is grid based. We have developed save game explorers (well, not me, per se, but you know what I mean), and wounagaine made SC4Mapper and Terraformer that work with the SC4 files, but he developed a new file format specifically for importing maps, which is arguably entirely different from infrastructure.

 

The problem, however, lies in the fact that the game is, first, a game (meaning it is not a real world simulator; fundamental simulation assumptions that the game makes defy all reality). Secondly, it is grid based, which until the current NAM meant that roads at any angle besides the grid pattern NSEW (and associated diagonals) were impossible to draw dynamically (though fractional angle puzzle pieces did exist). Even with the current NAM issue, with draggable FAR, only 17 deg and 22.5 deg roads are available. Any roads in your city that were not orthogonal or according to these two angles would not (and could not, ever) be rendered.

 

Wide curves are also, at best impractical in the SC4 grid system (often freeways and rail lines may sweep a wide curve with radii of up to a mile or two); Currently they are limited to a few hundred feet. Also, of the existing WRC available only through the NAM (which is a problem unto its own--the game, by default, has no WRC), only a few are draggable, and it is unlikely that puzzle pieces (or any of these infrastructure items) would be able to be placed automatically without a direct modification of the game's .exe file, which is currently (and will probably remain) illegal. And, of course, all roads that failed to fit exactly to the SC4 grid system could not be drawn.

 

A note about Mapper and Terraformer, it should be noted, is that they do not require the presence of any plugins to function properly. The ability to place the roads that would, at best, approximate the map in real life, would require the NAM to be present, but the functionality you suggest would have to be able to be created in absence of access to the plugins folder. Also, It is a mistake to assume that Google Earth knows where the roads are because it sees them. It knows where they are because a programmer told it that there were roads there, so when you select the layer, it draws the appropriate spline curve. The program itself, however, doesn't know anything.

 

Finally,

 

Sim City 4 is not a comprehensive simulation engine for determining any sort of real world strategy. At best, it emulates the real world, but it currently does so with a number of compromises. Customers, for instance, are simulated by traffic noise, not by actual shoppers. Busy roads have high customer potential, less-used roads have low customer potential. The Costco you place out in the woods (with no traffic), while in the RW would have lots of business, would probably abandon in SC4 due to lack of customers. If you really want to simulate city development, I suggest you look at a real simulation engine. You could still have lots of fun with the game, though. It just isn't useful for what you want it to do. (And the customers problem I mentioned is only one of a long list of simulator approximations that compromise the reality aspect of the game; there are numerous others).

 

Indiana Joe and Lost Realist are correct in that it simply isn't possible to have the game do what you're asking. I'm just trying to be comprehensive here and demonstrate why. Not trying to be overly dogmatic or negative.

[B-Blabb 0]

No problem!  I like playing SC4 as a "game".  Are there any "real" city simulators out there?

[Indiana Joe 1,750]

There's professional simulation tools, but those will run you an unfortunate $10,000+.  Another notable city building game is Cities XL.  Although it has far less available customization, the base game is much more realistic graphically, and there's no grid.

 

Then there's that new one Maxis made, but it....needs work.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

While the reasons (for why not) so far have been valid, the crux is simpler: Speaking as a programmer here, the job of placing roads and buildings is much much more complex than rendering terrain.

 

At the end of all rendering, one giant array of elevation data has been scaled and smoothed (multiplied and interpolated) into a collection of arrays of vertex elevation data. Such an array transformation is basically a long series of arithmetic calculations.

 

By comparison, placing roads requires interpretation, not just interpolation. That's a whole different kettle of fish. How does a program decide which roads to interpret as streets versus roads versus avenues versus expressways? How does it decide which of the limited in-game buildings to use for each of the bewildering number of real-world businesses and houses? What can it do with a compact real-world business whose in-game lot won't fit in the space available? What is a program to do with flag-lots and other real-world exceptions to the game's road-access rules? And that's just scratching the surface... After deciding to plop a building, how does the program know how many people live there or how much power a powerplant generates etc etc?

 

Possibly even worse, I've started by assuming that a programmer would know how to structure and position saved-game data other than the elevations matrix, but that's not a given. As I understand it, the sc4 file type is a container for several files within. Knowing how to save the elevations matrix does not mean knowing how to compose any other inner "files".

 

So, while in theory some kind of program could exist to automatically translate real-world street and/or lot data into in-game artifacts, the design and implementation would probably be even more complex than the game itself, and only Maxis would possess the kind of under-the-hood tech knowledge to write the output.

 

Still, if that tech knowledge ever became public, then the impossible would become merely very difficult. We would need to find input data more meaningful than raw images; we would want to start with the sort of data used by GPS devices to look-up addresses, categorize the entity at each address, and to calculate routes & travel times. After that would come a whole bunch of compromises needed to wedge reality into SC4's simple model and make capacity guesses based on incomplete data.

 

Sounds like fun. Let me know when the drop-dead stumbling blocks have been removed.

[B-Blabb 0]

So I'll try it by hand.  It'll take a while.  Wish I was a better programmer - alas I stopped back on '07 and have no desire to get into it again.