Which is better, One-Ways or Aves? Also how far can I zone commercial and still...

[punkrockgoth1988 1]

I need to know for sure, and my limited internet access (some forums dont show up right on my phone) has kept me from finding anything to do with the capacity of these two units. Anyway, for the sake of my game; would I be able to get the same maximum capacity if I paired One-Way Roads or would it be better to use Avenues? I just have this idea in my head of building a city where the high traffic areas (where one would normally wind up building Avenues) have One-Ways with a median that I can fill with Trees to help avoid pollution issues, because I just hate pollution of any kind.

Also, what is the furthest away from a heavily used thru-way that I could place commercial and still get the benefit of the traffic?

Many thanks to you hard core Sim City Mayors! I appreciate the help. SC4 is the only game on my computer that doesn't take forever to load so it is the only game I've been playing on the weekdays since most weekdays consist of me being too short on time or too tired to wait for anything else to load.

Like I said before, many thanks!

[longtimepcgamer 227]

Hello punkrockgoth1988,

 

Avenues have a total traffic capacity of 2500 trips with a max speed of 40kph....which is a capacity of 1250 in each direct   One way roads have a traffic capacity of 2000 with a max speed of 46kph....so if you pair 2 one roads up you get a total capacity of 4000 (2000 in each direction)....so this is the way to go.

 

As to your other question....I believe that buildings determine amount of traffic (customers) by the traffic level on the segment of road that they are attached to in front of them.   They get no benefit from higher traffic volumes further up or down the road.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Kevin

[AcronShinra 60]

As to your other question....I believe that buildings determine amount of traffic (customers) by the traffic level on the segment of road that they are attached to in front of them.   They get no benefit from higher traffic volumes further up or down the road.

COM benefits not only from traffic on roads in front of the lot, but also from back and both sides.

[Bdub01 201]

According the to instruction booklet that came with the game, one way roads have double the capacity and speed of regular roads. Avenues have a higher speed and capacity of roads as well. Six to one, half a dozen to another... However in my CBD I like to run avenues with one way roads on either side of them. I have never had traffic problems with that and I guess you could plant trees along the avenues if you wanted. I don't know much about the other question. Sorry.

[Superboss75 0]

an one-way road have the same capacity and speed as a normal road, and avenues have higher speed limits, meaning more capacity.

 

as for you second question, commercial buildings like traffic NOISE, making it good to place them back to back with heavily used highways.

[docj101 100]

Anyway, for the sake of my game; would I be able to get the same maximum capacity if I paired One-Way Roads or would it be better to use Avenues?

 

I'm not sure where some of the information you are receiving is coming from.  These numbers below are derived by looking at the game files directly, so this is your best answer.  This all assumes you are using a patched version of SC4 Deluxe or Rush Hour.

 

If using the NAMv31+ your networks have the following stats for use with cars:

 

Avenues -              Speed 50         Capacity -  4000 x 2 tiles wide = 8000 (medium capacity simulator) varies based on which capacity traffic simulator you are using.

One-Way Roads -  Speed 75         Capacity - 6000 (medium capacity simulator) varies with sim. but is always 75% of avenue capacity when comparing lengths of road.

 

 

A game without NAM or any other custom traffic simulators:

 

Avenues -               Speed 40         Capacity - 2500

One-Way Roads -   Speed 31        Capacity - 2000

 

 

So the answer to which is better is clear if using NAM.  Opposing one-ways would have 150% the capacity of an avenue and cars travel 50% faster.  If you aren't using the NAM then capacity is lower with 2 one-ways and speed decreases; you would lose 1000 capacity and 9 speed.  I think the stats on NAM one-ways have been increased like this so they can be used better with RHW in certain scenarios.

[Tarkus 6,933]

Opposing one-ways would have 300% the capacity of an avenue and cars travel 50% faster.

 

 

Actually, it's 150%.  All listed capacities are on a "per-tile" basis, so you'd multiply the Avenue capacity by 2 to get the capacity for the full width.

 

-Tarkus

[docj101 100]

 

Opposing one-ways would have 300% the capacity of an avenue and cars travel 50% faster.

 

 

Actually, it's 150%.  All listed capacities are on a "per-tile" basis, so you'd multiply the Avenue capacity by 2 to get the capacity for the full width.

 

-Tarkus

 

Ohhhhh gotya.  I never thought it was per tile including width.  I thought it was per tile but only in respect to each tile in length.  Thanks for that lesson, I fixed my post!  At least my end answer remained the same; 2 one-ways with the NAM installed are still better then one ave.

[SimMavGER 8]

Hm, I am not quite sure if I like this/think this is realistic.

Arent avenues the same as two oneways? Yet still I envision an avenue having wider lanes - if only for two less sidewalks in exchange for a bit green grass in the middle.

That cars often cant drive that fast on avenues in the real world because they are filled with other vehicles is simulated by congestion, but on a Sunday morning ...

 

And we havent even talked speed limits in the SimWorld?

 

We are of course talking about default settings and one could customize the NAM traffic simulator, but Im still pondering the question, why a oneway should be faster and/or wider then an avenue.

Are there differences in regards to how intersections slow down traffic on different kinds of transportation tiles (- to not use "streets" and be clear what I mean )? But that would be a variable not a basic constant for a specific kind of tile ... hmmm ...

[punkrockgoth1988 1]

This is the kind of response that makes me love it here! I am using the NAM, so I guess I will go ahead with my plan. Are you guys sure on the traffic vs commercial effect though? I've had businesses on side streets as far as the 3rd tile from the busy street still get a high number of customers. I suppose I will have to experiment with that. Anyway, many thanks. I meant to log on last night after work but... Between personal issues, a minor car accident on the way home, and more personal issues, I didn't get to check till now. Thanks again and I'll report back soon.

[Bdub01 201]

This is the kind of response that makes me love it here! I am using the NAM, so I guess I will go ahead with my plan. Are you guys sure on the traffic vs commercial effect though? I've had businesses on side streets as far as the 3rd tile from the busy street still get a high number of customers. I suppose I will have to experiment with that. Anyway, many thanks. I meant to log on last night after work but... Between personal issues, a minor car accident on the way home, and more personal issues, I didn't get to check till now. Thanks again and I'll report back soon.

 

Seems like the real world was trying to keep you away LOL!!!  Glad it was just a minor accident.

 

I could be wrong, but I think with the NAM being better than the original game's pathfinding commercial areas do get higher customers, but don't quote me on that...

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Well, it depends. Precisely the stupid pathfinding of the original game could lead to your Sims hopelessly clogging an area => super high traffic for commercials. With a better traffic simulator, Sims might circumvent clogged areas and use more public transportation. Then again. maybe other spots would see more traffic... you can't really tell, it depends on too many factors which, in turn, depend on the particular city and its layout.

[Bdub01 201]

^ If however one puts the CBD inbetween the R and I zones won't the sims have to go through the CBD to get to work in the I zones, thus making all the C happy?  Of course ever since I got NAM and I still use NAM 30 till all the bugs go away on the new one, all my CBD buildings have high customers.  I also use one way roads and avenues in conjuction as well as at least one train station running through and bus stops everywhere.  In my major cities I do use subways, I'm just not a big monorail person though...

[docj101 100]

I'm still pondering the question, why a oneway should be faster and/or wider then an avenue.

Like I mentioned before, 'I think' it is really only done this way for better functionality when combining RWH and OWR in a network.  This is the only reason that I can think of that makes sense.  For example:  you can't make a tunnel with RHW so in order to 'fake it' you can transition from RHW to OWR, create tunnel, then back to RHW.  Inflating the OWR capacity and speed helps keep this highway/tunnel from going unused due to a very slow bottleneck.  There is a few other places like this where RHW uses OWR.

[.anonyman 28]

Hm, I am not quite sure if I like this/think this is realistic.

Arent avenues the same as two oneways? Yet still I envision an avenue having wider lanes - if only for two less sidewalks in exchange for a bit green grass in the middle.

That cars often cant drive that fast on avenues in the real world because they are filled with other vehicles is simulated by congestion, but on a Sunday morning ...

 

And we havent even talked speed limits in the SimWorld?

 

We are of course talking about default settings and one could customize the NAM traffic simulator, but Im still pondering the question, why a oneway should be faster and/or wider then an avenue.

Are there differences in regards to how intersections slow down traffic on different kinds of transportation tiles (- to not use "streets" and be clear what I mean )? But that would be a variable not a basic constant for a specific kind of tile ... hmmm ...

 

I've wondered about all this too, but SC4 is only a simulator so we have to accept some compromises. One-way ROADS are pretty rare in real life, but inner-city one-way STREETS are great traffic solutions. Avenues (like those in the game) should be faster in real life and have fewer intersections. But in the game, our cities are criss-crossed by country roads with wider sidewalks than street tiles (go figure).

 

I too would love to know how intersections differ depending on various types of 'transportation tiles'.

 

And to address the OP's question (sort of), I think one-way roads are better because you can put trees, rails or grease pits between them or even split them and direct traffic around blocks, parks and civic buildings. Avenues are much less versatile and no less compact.

[Tarkus 6,933]

We are of course talking about default settings and one could customize the NAM traffic simulator, but Im still pondering the question, why a oneway should be faster and/or wider then an avenue.

 

The reason why One-Way Roads are set to higher capacity/faster speed is based upon actual real-world traffic engineering studies, that show they have higher capacity than two-way roads of the same width.  A large part of it is due to the fact that vehicles don't have to deal with oncoming traffic when making turning movements, and the ease of creating a green wave with signalized intersections.

 

-Tarkus

[Prophet42 1,503]

I must say this is a good discussion.  Lots of useful information.    Thanks for posting the question punkrockgoth1988.

[docj101 100]

The reason why One-Way Roads are set to higher capacity/faster speed is based upon actual real-world traffic engineering studies, that show they have higher capacity than two-way roads of the same width.  A large part of it is due to the fact that vehicles don't have to deal with oncoming traffic when making turning movements, and the ease of creating a green wave with signalized intersections.

 

-Tarkus

In towns surrounding where I live one-way roads are only side streets.  Their speed is usually 20 or 25 MPH (32 or 40 KPH), they are narrow and slow; designed to keep traffic from using them unless they live or have business in the neighborhood.  They have stop signs or traffic lights at every corner as well.  This keeps 'through traffic' on the main drag to keep the neighborhoods quieter/cleaner.  The main streets or avenues are 30 or 35 MPH (48 or 56 KPH) and can handle much more traffic.  They have the right-o-way at most intersections (don't have to stop) and they have turning lanes at traffic lights.  It takes me twice as long to get across town if I take the one-ways.  So I suppose where you localize the study would determine on what type of results you would arrive at.

 

In SC4 the fact that streets and roads have to yield to OWR at intersections and OWR don't have to stop at all at avenue intersections makes them ideal to attain that green wave effect in game.  It doesn't really make sense to me that OWR intersections only stop the other network's traffic with traffic lights.  Since it is that way, OWRs have less intersection delays to begin with in the game then other networks.  With NAM increasing their speed/capacity on top of the green wave effect really makes them the ideal auto network.  Almost like highways you can build on.

 

Using them for RHW tunnels is undeniably a good use for them as well with these inflated stats.

[KonstantinII 1,106]

One ways are just like half of what avenues are. One ways are size 1x1 while avenues are size 2x2. Put two one ways going in opposite directions next to each other and you have an avenue. In fact you can connect true avenues to the double one way configuration which takes up the same amount of space. You can also connect avenues to roads but you can't connect regular roads to one ways. Also if you get the NAM there is included a trolley in the middle of avenue.

[docj101 100]

One ways are just like half of what avenues are. One ways are size 1x1 while avenues are size 2x2. Put two one ways going in opposite directions next to each other and you have an avenue.

This is only true visually or theoretically.  With NAM, 2 opposing one-ways would actually have 150% the capacity of an avenue and cars travel 50% faster.  Without NAM you would lose 1000 capacity and 9 speed by using 2 opposing one-ways.  So in either case they aren't the same speed or capacity as an avenue.

[SimMavGER 8]

 

One ways are just like half of what avenues are. One ways are size 1x1 while avenues are size 2x2. Put two one ways going in opposite directions next to each other and you have an avenue.

This is only true visually or theoretically.  With NAM, 2 opposing one-ways would actually have 150% the capacity of an avenue and cars travel 50% faster.  Without NAM you would lose 1000 capacity and 9 speed by using 2 opposing one-ways.  So in either case they aren't the same speed or capacity as an avenue.

 

 

So, why do we build avenues at all?

 

Would a handbuilt roundabout connecting four avenues by a somewhat circular oneway running through the endtiles of each avenue handle traffic better then a T-intersection of the avenues?

 

And I cant come up with a reason to connect a road only to one lane of an avenue - I have a basic idea, but I am not quite sure that there are many occasions one would want to do that.

 

(And I think I keep mixing up streets and roads - or switch between those two words if i only mean "any car traffic tile".

[docj101 100]

So, why do we build avenues at all?

Probably because most folks don't know the speeds and capacities and they naturally assume that an avenue would be better then 2 OWR in both respects.  After all most people have experienced this being the case in real life, and this is how the default game was set up.  Honestly, from a purely functional standpoint the NAM does make avenues the inferior choice.  The only reason someone would use avenues while knowing this is to maintain difficulty or balance, they need it in a specific scenario, or because they like avenue aspects visually. 

 

Note: I'm not defending this change to OWRs and I myself don't use a NAM or TSCT traffic simulator; I use my own because of things like this.  I am only here explaining the facts.

 

Would a handbuilt roundabout connecting four avenues by a somewhat circular oneway running through the endtiles of each avenue handle traffic better then a T-intersection of the avenues?

Yes, a roundabout almost always handles traffic better then a T or 4-way.  Only in low volume scenarios is a regular intersection better imo (to save space mostly).

 

And I cant come up with a reason to connect a road only to one lane of an avenue - I have a basic idea, but I am not quite sure that there are many occasions one would want to do that.

The reason you wouldn't completely cross both lanes of an avenue would be to prevent a traffic light intersection from being built.  Intersections add extra time to commutes, plus the congestion they can cause can also increase commute time.

[Ganaram Inukshuk 906]

Keep in mind that Avenues and OWRs are seen as completely separate networks, so a Dual OWR and a single Avenue aren't identical in that regard. To be really technical, the OWR and Avenue have their own sets of INRULs (RUL files that dictate how to draw each network).

Also, since the capacity boost associated with OWR are to reflect the real-life benefits of OWRs, a Dual OWR built to mimic an Avenue (unless it's an Avenue-ish network with a wider median) is more of a cheat/exploit than a benefit.

Why build Avenues at all? OWRs can't completely replace Avenues, for a few obvious reasons:

- Dual-span bridges that take up less space. If you've ever tried to build two OWR bridges side-by-side, you'll know that it's impossible to get it to work without having at least a 1-tile gap between the two bridges.

- Neighbour connections. For an NC to work properly, commuters that go between two cities need to be able to re-enter the same NC that they exited. For example, imagine two cities, each connected by and sharing two Road NCs. Traffic going out the first NC for the morning commute will never enter through the second NC for the evening commute, only through the first. For this reason, since OWRs are a single-direction network, there would be no outlet for Sims to re-enter, so OWRs are prevented from making NCs at all.

- Avenues have turn lane plugins: The ATL and the TuLEPs. OWRs don't have turn lanes.

- Avenues have proper signalisation, whereas in some instances, OWR signals will end up facing the wrong way. This is further magnified if you try to cross a Dual OWR with another Dual OWR; Instead of one single 2x2 crossing, you get four 1-tile crossings occupying a 2x2 space.

- The aesthetic benefit: The decorated median. Yes, this can sometimes be a curse if two different types of zoning are laid alongside one single Avenue, but can be prevented by strategically replacing small segments of Avenue with Dual OWR (yes, you can use a dual OWR here).

- Dragging two OWRs is roughly twice as much work as dragging a single Avenue.

No one network is ever useless in the NAM, they all have their place and purpose.

[SimMavGER 8]

So, with:

bridges and neighbour connections being technical reasons

turn lanes, signalisation and decoration being aesthetic reasons (or do the first two also have an effect on the traffic simulator?)

and the last being a lazy-reason ...

is there any reason regarding the traffic simulator to not favor OWR over avenues?

 

NAM lets you temper with every aspect of capacity and speed, yes? Can I get into a situation where my changes to these variables get me into serious trouble? (Given that I'd at least think for a minute or two before assigning new values ...)

[docj101 100]

Is there any reason regarding the traffic simulator to not favor OWR over avenues?

 

Other then neighbor connections, nope.

 

Backup your current traffic sim (copy/paste) somewhere and go start messing around with it.  When you load your city with your new simulator you can let years pass without saving to see what happens.  If your city population crashes just 'exit without saving'.  Then you can try again or you can return your old traffic sim.  Messing with this stuff is half the fun of SC4.  I recommend using reader to make changes as the configuration tool limits what you can do.  You can't change speeds with TSCT and you are stuck with preset capacities to choose from, among other things.

[Ganaram Inukshuk 906]

So, with:

bridges and neighbour connections being technical reasons

turn lanes, signalisation and decoration being aesthetic reasons (or do the first two also have an effect on the traffic simulator?)

and the last being a lazy-reason ...

is there any reason regarding the traffic simulator to not favor OWR over avenues?

 

NAM lets you temper with every aspect of capacity and speed, yes? Can I get into a situation where my changes to these variables get me into serious trouble? (Given that I'd at least think for a minute or two before assigning new values ...)

It's only the capacity that the TSCT allows you tamper with; Speed has an important relation with Capacity that's best left unbroken. And yes, it's possible to get into trouble by tampering with these values. There's a thread on the details on what each value does exactly, and many of them are interconnected. https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=10261.0

And it's not so much the Traffic Simulator somehow favouring OWRs, but the users wanting to favour Avenues for more or less the reasons I had described. Besides, in the tutorials, you hear about the Avenue network and nothing about the OWR.

Did I mention there's no hotkey for OWR?

[SimMavGER 8]

And I cant come up with a reason to connect a road only to one lane of an avenue - I have a basic idea, but I am not quite sure that there are many occasions one would want to do that.

The reason you wouldn't completely cross both lanes of an avenue would be to prevent a traffic light intersection from being built.  Intersections add extra time to commutes, plus the congestion they can cause can also increase commute time.

 

 

Without a traffic light the street/road traffic would have to wait for the avenue traffic? Or is it to only slow down one lane of the avenue?

OWR would not wait for avenues at all - if I read correctly in the posts above?

[docj101 100]

 Without a traffic light the street/road traffic would have to wait for the avenue traffic? Or is it to only slow down one lane of the avenue?

OWR would not wait for avenues at all - if I read correctly in the posts above?

No, in this scenario they both keep moving.  You do this to prevent a traffic light that stops the avenue traffic, so avenue traffic doesn't have to stop.  The OWR traffic does not have to stop if you cross a avenue with it, but the avenue does.  Roads crossing an avenue makes both networks stop.  Streets crossing avenues doesn't stop the avenue's traffic.

[SimMavGER 8]

 

 Without a traffic light the street/road traffic would have to wait for the avenue traffic? Or is it to only slow down one lane of the avenue?

OWR would not wait for avenues at all - if I read correctly in the posts above?

No, in this scenario they both keep moving.  You do this to prevent a traffic light that stops the avenue traffic, so avenue traffic doesn't have to stop.  The OWR traffic does not have to stop if you cross a avenue with it, but the avenue does.  I know, weird.

 

 

Meaning as long as traffic at an intersection would continue into a single direction on the then combined route, noone has to wait, because cars only leave the avenue onto the road turning right and cars on the road turn right onto the ow-lane of the avenue. This is even more realistic than I would have expected!

 

Wow, the sims actually are intelligent enough to sneak themselves in without impeding the traffic flow. Now thats something I'd like to see every day.

 

My problem is, that if a road coming from the west being connected to only on lane of an avenue would only enable sims to continue on south (to work) but coming back north (driving home) they wouldnt be able to turn left to the road they live in, they would have to drive further north to a X-intersection, a roundabout or the end of the avenue and come back to the road to turn right.

If I built another avenue to the west and connect my road to its one lane (leading north) then my sims would drive east on their road, turn right onto the eastern avenue continuing south to their workplace (e.g. an industrial area) and in the evening drive north on the western avenue to turn right into their road to get home.

But, in the industrial area the sims would turn right into the roads leading to the factories and travel east in the evening to drive north one the western avenue. In this somewhat reduced example one lane of both avenues would never be used - maybe only by sims living in a northern block, when we assume that we built residential blocks north to south between both avenues, those might take the outer lanes that are less congested by the commuters living further south, driving south on the western and north on the eastern avenue, but all in all the outer lanes would be a complete waste and it would have been better to built OWR, one leading south the other north, and make the east-west roads in the residential blocks OWR too to make use of their higher capacity, higher even than the one avenue-lane we would be using in the original setup.

 

I hope this was somewhat clear, just rambling around.

[docj101 100]

Yeah exactly, even OWR yields to the avenue traffic if it is not an intersection that cuts through the lanes.  Put a U-Turn spot in the avenue every so often by dragging a 2 tile section of street across the two lanes.  This creates much less disturbance to traffic then a normal intersection.  Remember cars can switch lanes if they need to use the U-Turn.  This keeps them from having to travel far down the road to come back in the opposing lane.  Using streets to do it prevents any stoppage of the avenue traffic.  Roads will create traffic lights. 

 

This picture is demonstrating the u-turns I am talking about.  You can see 3 in the picture, take note of how the traffic is using them.

 

Now below take a look at a key difference between these two networks.  This picture has the simulator paths turned on.  The u-turns cause traffic to stop in both directions as indicated by the red lines on the OWR, but only the cars making a U-turn will yield on an avenue.  You also see in both networks u-turns also create pedestrian crosswalks indicated by the blue lines.