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"Fudged" population discussion

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So I was thinking earlier that fudged population may not be the worst thing ever. One of the more annoying aspects of SC4, IMO, was the wild swings in RCI demand you would experience after demolishing a large residential or commercial building. Whether you were bulldozing a building that had fallen in wealth and was an eyesore or you were making way for a new highway, whenever I would bulldoze one of these buildings everything else around it would deteriorate, sometimes momentarily, sometimes permanently. Regardless, my RCI indicators would plummet (or skyrocket, depending on what I bulldozed) and I found it incredibly annoying. I don't notice this in SC 2013 when I have to bulldoze a building.

 

 

 

Thoughts?

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I don't notice any big problems when I bulldoze property in SC4. Sure it may have an impact but my cities usually adjusts once I finish rebuilding. I think the problem with the fudging in SC13 is they said the glassbox was for deep and true simulation. They even used terms like "what you see is what you sim". For this title where the glassbox was supposed to do true simulation to fudge the population defeats the purpose of not using the statistic system like in SC4. The sims still end up being representational and not a reflection of true population. Also I believe if the game used statistics maybe there would be more CPU freedom for other things that are not in the game due to "limitations".

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  • Original Poster
  • I don't notice any big problems when I bulldoze property in SC4. Sure it may have an impact but my cities usually adjusts once I finish rebuilding. I think the problem with the fudging in SC13 is they said the glassbox was for deep and true simulation. They even used terms like "what you see is what you sim". For this title where the glassbox was supposed to do true simulation to fudge the population defeats the purpose of not using the statistic system like in SC4. The sims still end up being representational and not a reflection of true population. Also I believe if the game used statistics maybe there would be more CPU freedom for other things that are not in the game due to "limitations".

     

    Really? One of the most annoying things for me in SC4 was that buildings would go from $$$ to $$ and double in population, then when I bulldozed the building commercial demand would suddenly plummet.

     

    One thing I *don't* like about SC2013 is that I can't see what a building's population is....

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    Try this.

     

    Build a city of about 100k pop, then put down parks all over the place.  You city pop will drop by at least half while all the buildings are removed taking the population with them.  Then you have to wait for more people to move in, your city will suffer big time while this happens.

     

    In my experiment, after all was said and done, adding parks cut my population by about 40% and income by 75%.  Just by improving quality of life.

     

    You like that better than how SimCity 4 did things, eh?

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    I'm moving my industrial development.  It's taking some time but I'm not having any problems.  No swings and no money runs.  The agent structure, whatever else it might do damps the swings because it takes time for the game to pick up the changes.  There seems to be some sort of cyclical development.  I like the recycling a lot, it is a money pot.  I can run a $4000 deficit and still make a profit overall.  Average density of real cities doesn't run anywhere near what the cities in game do.  There is so much dead space that if they didn't boost the population you would be lucky to get 100k on a map.  To this point I haven't been able to find a grid size that is used just for structures without fillers.  They use fillers to adjust the lot sizes.  And they don't go away when the lot they are with does.  Odd things like dumpster and tankage and so on.

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    Try this.

     

    Build a city of about 100k pop, then put down parks all over the place.  You city pop will drop by at least half while all the buildings are removed taking the population with them.  Then you have to wait for more people to move in, your city will suffer big time while this happens.

     

    In my experiment, after all was said and done, adding parks cut my population by about 40% and income by 75%.  Just by improving quality of life.

     

    You like that better than how SimCity 4 did things, eh?

    Yeah I hate that when a building is being upgraded either in wealth or density, it takes the population down for a while. It's especially bad when you're in the process of building a highrise condo, it plummets and then suddenly shoots up like crazy. It wouldn't be so bad or so noticeable if we had Cheetah but we don't, so I just sit and watch it slowly build back up. Super annoying.

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    The fudged population doesn't do anything. It doesn't "change" the simulation or anything, it just displays your population as a different number. Parks are a huge money sink, and high wealth pay terrible taxes, (basically the same as low wealth, because less move into their buildings) ... that needs to be balanced a lot.

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  • Original Poster
  • Try this.

     

    Build a city of about 100k pop, then put down parks all over the place.  You city pop will drop by at least half while all the buildings are removed taking the population with them.  Then you have to wait for more people to move in, your city will suffer big time while this happens.

     

    In my experiment, after all was said and done, adding parks cut my population by about 40% and income by 75%.  Just by improving quality of life.

     

    You like that better than how SimCity 4 did things, eh?

     

    Never said I liked it better. I was just making an observation. :)

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    Although a bit of a fudge is fine by me, but this huge gap between the numbers is really harsh. Supposedly, I have a city of 100,000 that's half $$, one quarter $ and one quarter $$$, and yet I lack the population to have a dozen high tech factories and a few commercial buildings fully staffed. It'd be nice to increase the workforce/shopper/student/tourist populations created to have better functioning cities.

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    I dont have an issue with the fudging of numbers. In fact I think its a neccessity. What I do have a problem with is the marketers and the fanboys saying we cant increase the map size because every person has to be simulated. As this is not the case there is no longer any more excuses as to why the map size cannot be increased.

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    I dont have an issue with the fudging of numbers. In fact I think its a neccessity. What I do have a problem with is the marketers and the fanboys saying we cant increase the map size because every person has to be simulated. As this is not the case there is no longer any more excuses as to why the map size cannot be increased.

    What?  The technical limitations are going to be based on the real numbers, not the fudged ones.  Just because we've now learned there are fudged population numbers doesn't remove those limitations.

     

    I'm no fanboy, quite the opposite, but I appreciate there are limitations for an engine which wants to model every sim individually (ignoring the fudge).  25,000 or so is a lot to simulate, even for modern computers.

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    I dont have an issue with the fudging of numbers. In fact I think its a neccessity. What I do have a problem with is the marketers and the fanboys saying we cant increase the map size because every person has to be simulated. As this is not the case there is no longer any more excuses as to why the map size cannot be increased.

    What? The technical limitations are going to be based on the real numbers, not the fudged ones. Just because we've now learned there are fudged population numbers doesn't remove those limitations.

    I'm no fanboy, quite the opposite, but I appreciate there are limitations for an engine which wants to model every sim individually (ignoring the fudge). 25,000 or so is a lot to simulate, even for modern computers.

    What I was referring to were early claims that glassbox simulated every single sim and that the engine did not have a working mechanism that allowed for a portion of the data to be fudged. This was found not to be true.

    As for the demands of the simulation im sure it does take some processing power but EA/Maxis statements might be a little on the over embellished side

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