Why does cartoonish equal bad?

[The Bluejay 40]

Graphics overhaul mods are possible, Oldblivion, for example

Bluejay, your post broke my mind. Now I can't stop thinking of that. To put it in Psychonauts terms, naming or displaying a character from a childrens show in my childhood makes them god of my mind. I cannot stop thinking of them (in this case the FS theme) and I have to strain like mad just to think of anything else.

Muahahahaha!

Hear, let me help clear it from your mind with something else.

Postman Pat

Postman Pat and his black-and-white cat...

[croxis 150]

Bright color pallet != cartoonish

Cartoonish is cell shading (see: boarderlands)

There are three very important reasons why a bright color pallet is not just a good thing, but required for games:

1) Visual identity: As a player I want to be able to quickly identify the objects I am looking at. "Realistic" visuals would have drab color variation and saturation (mostly colorized grays and browns) and make it more difficult for the player to resolve information.

2) Engine aging: Realistic graphics age quickly. Games with realistic graphics will look older sooner than those with more artful direction. The computer graphics of WoW or Babylon 5 looked good for a very long time because they were using vivid art direction.

3) Uncanny valley. Already discussed on the first page, but the closer we push for realistic graphics the more unrealistic they become. This is especially true when the game also is set up to run on mid or low end hardware and the older shader models do not support all the realism details.

It is also very important to differentiate screenshots vs the moving game. Something that might look really good in a screenshot may end up not looking good when in motion.

[MINIggy03 227]

For those that think vibrant colors are for kid games, I'm 27 years old and I absolutely love the look. Who didn't love the SC3000 intro video and not want to play that game? This is that game.

  Edited June 4, 2012 by MINIggy03  

[Ocram's Razr 963]

For concept art it looks pretty good but we need more neutrally colored buildings. We also need texture mapping.

[croxis 150]

For concept art it looks pretty good but we need more neutrally colored buildings. We also need texture mapping.

I think you mean normal mapping?

[Ocram's Razr 963]

There are many types of texture mapping. There is bump, specular, normal, parallax occlusion, environmental, and types of reflections.

So a normal map for texture detail and a soot overlay for polluted or burning areas.

  Edited June 5, 2012 by OcramSeattle  

[samplane123 1]

It doesn't look cartoony to me at all, it looks a lot like a 3D SimCity 4. Simcity has never been photorealistic, SC4 was very stylised in the same way.

[DocRorlach 25]

Do not get your hopes up about batting or modding or even customizing SC2013: for one, in SC4 it was Maxis who made the first tools available for it - they do have to be compatible with the games engine.

As far as we have seen thus far (and there have been utterances from the development/management team accordingly) there will, at least initially be no such an approach for SC2013.

Moreover, since it is an online only game where other players influence what happens in your city/region (not sure how far this will go), custom content would be a nightmare unless it is instantly shared.

The next SC game appears to simply follow a trend: Focus is trying, so EA/Maxis - with a lot more investment cloud - hopes to beat them. It is not SC5, probably never will be, because that would be a natural progression on the same graphic plane, i.e. isometric, just better. I doubt very much that anyone at EA ever thought about doing just that: improve SC4 to make it SC5, complete with an initial set of batting/modding tools.

Shame, that..

[Dijego 66]

It is an interesting topic, but there is not much fact in it I believe. You can probably find out what is better in terms of what would make the game sell more, but in the end when it comes to the players it is an opinion.

Sometimes people can describe really well why they like something better or dislike something, sometimes they can't. An important issue is that the people that play this game are all looking to create a nice city I would presume. A nice city for me is a city where the infrastructure is done very efficient and has a nice balance between nature and actual buildings.

For me it would not matter too much if the game is cartoonish, but if the game is a complete cartoon style it would seem to me that it is playing with me, rather than I am playing the game. Because when I put a lot of effort in a system that works I don't want "a spongebob coming out of a building". Thank you dabadon5. Because that would make me think that even a kid could make such a system.

So in the end I personally prefer a realistic style, as realistic as it comes. Architecture from all sorts of countries! Perhaps we could learn something as well?! cough*realismFTW*cough

[MapleNormandy 6]

I'd just like to chime in that when I first picked up SC2k when I was 10 years old, the (arguably) cartoonish graphics and some of the more silly content (ever stop to ready the newspapers or set one of the sillier disasters loose upon your city?) really helped to draw me into the game. Even though now I avidly play SC4, I don't feel that my 10 year old self would have ever connected with SC4 the way I connected with SC2k.

I'm sure the textures will improve by the time of release, but I do not think that the cartoonish look and feel will or should go away. Children and people new to the series alike shouldn't need to be introduced to the series at SC3k before moving on to the next games in the series - hence the "reimagining" of the SimCity franchise. The earlier SimCities were a lot about accessibility - making something as remote as urban planning accessible to young children and teens, and I know that the series has grown with many of you, steadily increasing in complexity as you have grown older and more able to deal with this complexity. I cannot imagine having the patience to learn not just how to play but how to make interesting and beautiful cities in SC4 as a 13 or 14 year old, but during those years I easily lost hours of my time to SC3k (note that at this time I did not own a computer powerful enough to play SC4...)

I am really hoping that this "reimagining" of the series will it back to its more accessible roots while keeping the core of the game, balancing the dual needs to build functional and aesthetically pleasing cities, intact. With glassbox Maxis has shown that they are committed to keeping the simulation aspect deep and complex by getting rid of the "magic" numbers that SC4 had and replacing them by with the actions of simulated people, a concept much more easily grasped and understood by all audiences. Hearing the gameplay interview and that a "sports city" needed to be designed with the ability to shuttle as many people in and out of the city as possible put my hopes up for SC2013 - when was the last time the SC4 simulation did something as interesting as that? (That being said, I really hope the "ability to build 5-7 different types of city" was marketing talk and not an actual indicator of the possible variety in the game...)

So anyways, point is, I don't see the cartoonish graphics as sounding the death toll for the SimCity franchise. I see it as what Maxis sees it as: a reimagining of the franchise that will bring it back to its roots without losing the core gameplay. There will always be mods (hopefully?) for people who want more realism in their cities, and as the artists at Maxis continue working on their art the game and more detail is added to the textures the buildings will look less clean and cartoony, but the core gameplay is going nowhere. SimCity has always been about engaging adults and children alike in a game far more interesting than shooting aliens on a screen or what have you.

And plus, tilt-shift photography can look really cool.

  Edited June 6, 2012 by MapleNormandy  

[drdru7029 52]

Mods hopefully will be able to solve the aesthetic concerns many of us have. What worries me is that a dozen skycrapers can rise from a square mile city where the population looks to be around a few thousand. This points to an underlying philosophy that might not be so easy to modify. Say goodbye to some of those shreds of realism in SC4 that we came to love.

[DocRorlach 25]

For a very succinct explanation of the What & Why SC2013 suddenly appeared on the horizon and how it will come to the market, I would like to refer every on to SenorBrightSide's 106th post on this SImPeg topic..

'Nough said

[meowza 230]

For a very succinct explanation of the What & Why SC2013 suddenly appeared on the horizon and how it will come to the market, I would like to refer every on to SenorBrightSide's 106th post on this SImPeg topic..

'Nough said

Old news... That I couldn't care less about.

[I. Lostalim 588]

Why does cartoonish equal bad?

IT DOESN'T... Period.

For a very succinct explanation of the What & Why SC2013 suddenly appeared on the horizon and how it will come to the market, I would like to refer every on to SenorBrightSide's 106th post on this SImPeg topic..

'Nough said

Old news... That I couldn't care less about.

Me too! Get rid of that garbage!!

[Ombedor 23]

Why does cartoonish equal bad?

IT DOESN'T... Period.

I would rather have a cartoonish representation of a rich simulation that a rich representation of a cartoonish simulation.

  Edited June 7, 2012 by Ombedor  

[I. Lostalim 588]

Why does cartoonish equal bad?

IT DOESN'T... Period.

I would rather have a cartoonish representation of a rich simulation that a rich representation of a cartoonish simulation.

Almost saying the same thing again, but ok...?

[I. Lostalim 588]

For those that think vibrant colors are for kid games, I'm 27 years old and I absolutely love the look. Who didn't love the SC3000 intro video and not want to play that game? This is that game.

I agree 100%

Let’s just say they are combining all the styles from the previous installments…

Little bit of nostalgia, little bit of new graphics… It’s fine with me!

[Ombedor 23]

Why does cartoonish equal bad?

IT DOESN'T... Period.

I would rather have a cartoonish representation of a rich simulation that a rich representation of a cartoonish simulation.

Almost saying the same thing again, but ok...?

Yeah, I should have explicitly stated that I agree with your post. Sorry for the confusion.

[Urban Cartographer 601]

How is cartoonish bad? The so-called "cartoonish" graphics are what makes the SimCity games timeless! They do not age as quickly as those with realistic graphics.

In addition, most of the FPS and WRPG crowds generally do not play SimCity anyways. If you want realistic graphics, I heard that Cities XL would appeal to you or you can wait for realistic texture mods to be made.

  Edited June 7, 2012 by Urban Cartographer  

[I. Lostalim 588]

Yeah, I should have explicitly stated that I agree with your post. Sorry for the confusion.

No problem!!

Quote, in a quote, in a quote, in a quote! (etc)...

The most quotes I have ever seen!!

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I have seen purple quotes.

On a side note, more muted colors and normal mapping would make the visuals ideal for me.

[LillySatou 117]

i think if the art team really went for a "realistic" look, people would complain about how boring it looks. computer graphics give us the opportunity to make unique comments and twists on how we perceive the real world. what would be the point of simply making a copy of what we experience every day? sim city's art style is going in a great direction. in time you will learn to love it and appreciate it. seeing it in motion is really fun. and i don't think they're even close to done with it yet, either. games go through hundreds of artistic tweaks throughout development. it will get better.

  Edited June 7, 2012 by LillySatou  

[flowmotion 24]

"Cartoony" graphics serve a real purpose, as they emphasize it is a "toy city" which you can play with, blow up, set fire to, and stomp with Godzilla. If the graphics are too realistic, it creates an atmosphere of "look but don't touch". Think of the difference between a lego set versus a model train diorama. The latter is behind glass and isn't fun to play with.

There's also an interesting aspect of consumer psychology. People love colorful houses and cars in photographs. However, in reality they paint their houses beige and buy gray-colored cars. People love stylized skyscrapers, but in reality most office buildings are just big boring boxes. And so on. I think a game world should model that idealized view reality where everything is colorful and stylish, rather than actual (boring) reality where with nondescript houses, nondescript cars, and nondescript offices.

Finally, note that "cartoony" graphics can still be realistic. Past SimCities seem somewhat influenced by 1950s "Googie" architecture, and there's other exotic modern and postmodern architecture styles which could be used (e.g. Frank Gehry).

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Well, I think that SimCity should look like a model rail road and not like a Lego set.

I think that we should have tile sets with colorful and dull buildings.

  Edited June 8, 2012 by OcramSeattle  

[ZackAttack 0]

I don't know, but the direction they are going if they keep on adding details to the buildings (Landscape, pathways etc) you might not notice the vivid color of buildings, say we add realistic colors you probably see it as a background and the primary focus which is the whole picture(simcity) well be a little lost.

To me:

Realistic colors = Great snapshots

Cartoony colors = Gameplay focus

[Shark7 118]

To the OP:

Its not that cartoonish is necessarily bad...even as I get older I still like watching cartoons. And for games, animated is just as well as completely realistic for most genres.

What you run into with SimCity is that you are catering to a simulation crowd...that is the player base is playing this as a city simulator and as such, we want a certain degree of realism. Ask a person who plays a flight sim, and they will tell you they want it to accurately simulate flying an airplane. Its the same thing with many of the SimCity players...we are looking to make a simulated city, and thus we want it to be as realistic as possible.

Like I said, having games with cartoonish graphics isn't a bad thing, it just doesn't suit some types of players.

[meowza 230]

I'm thankul that SC2K looked attractive to kids, that was years ago. Cause if not, I would probably have never became a fan of the series.

Simply put, let's not be too possessive. Share SimCity's fun to other people.

[Mark Waybill 242]

When I first played 2000 back in 03 I was twelve. I found the graphics great and realistic, because before then all I had was lego and pencil and paper. And I didn't get good at drawing till later. (Indeed Simcity got me into drawing architectural type sketches) I liked the balance between an annual budget report and dinosaurs. I thought Maxis did a great job. When I played 4 I initially missed the more zany nature of 2000, but at the time Spongebob ranked as one of my favourite tv shows.

As I continued playing 4 I warmed to its more grungy style, but was pleased with the amount of llama they had left in the mix. My main gripe with 4 was the fact roads weren't 'curvy', as on the front cover they appeared to be 'curvy', and this was my main gripe with 2000. This was one area where I could draw a more realistic city layout. (Bedtime reading for me was a street directory or atlas...)

From what I have seen of '5', it dissapoints me. But as has been said a number of times on this forum, we tend to be nitpicky and overlook the positive qualities in things. However that doesn't mean I'm going to sing 'Rule Maxisannia!' at the top of my lungs and wave the California bear flag. Constructive criticism is important to these producers, and while I may be part of a small minority of dedicated enthusiasts, that doesn't make my opinions less valid, just more demanding and a bit OCDesque at times.

I am not averse to the 'cartoon' style as the default style. They mentioned tilesets. I imagine modding will eventually come with time. In the meantime my main issues are about the realism of features of the infrastructure, not the graphical style. After all many IRL cities have unusual architecture, and I see no reason why we should be prejudiced against 'cartoonesque' architecture any more than Romanesque or Baroque. But I shall continue to voice my opinion regarding railway station design and so forth. Not every city is set in 1890s Kansas.

[Nielsen 10]

To me it seems that the cartoonish graphics is an aim to unite the graphical identity of The Sims with Sim City. Even though Sim City 4 is an old game, I think it looks superior compared to the new style. No doubt that the new game will draw on the latests technology but the look and feel of it doesn't match my understading of a great looking city builder. I sincerely hope that the new game will improve on all aspects of Sim City 4 but the fact that Maxis wants to improve accessibility makes me think otherwise. The Sims has always been a very approachable game and the graphics in the next Sim City makes me think that EA wants to make their huge The Sims fanbase feel at home in the next Sim City without too much hassle.

[pickled_pig 7]

I was guessing the cartoon graphics were there more to reduce the load on the video card. If you're not going photo-realistic, you can have less detailed textures, lower poly counts, etc... If so, I imagine all of that can be fixed when we start modding the game.

I remember when they announced the release of the game and the Origin site had some (tentative?) system requirements. I think it said minimum sys reqs with respect to the graphics was a Radeon X1800 or the like. Compared to a game like Battlefield 3 (they recommend a Radeon 6970) or Max Payne 3 (recommend a Radeon 7970) this is pretty mild and will mean that even if you last built a gaming PC several years ago you'll still be able to enjoy this game. Hence I won't complain about the graphics yet.

The thing that worried me about the E3 video was that there didn't seem to be much in terms of scenery surrounding the buildings. Part of the allure of the modern, fully modded SC4 is stuff like mayor mode ploppables that give full control over the scenery.